Lucifer

I was watching "Zack and Miri make a Porno", which I heartily recommend, and the scene with Zack ordering the Fleshlight from Amazon got me thinking about differences between Male and Female masturbation.

While female masturbation seems to have really come out of the closet, with everyone from Oprah to anchors on the nightly news discussing vibrators and sex toys for women, male masturbatory aids seem to still carry a stigma of sleaze.

Is this just my perception, or does anyone else feel this way too?

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1123, 6536, 5321

Baraka_Guru

Because it's for men.

Male sexuality is considered sleazy, if not exploitative or predatory.

It's called a "double standard" at best, and "misandry" at worst.

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genuinegirly

Fleshlight vs. Dildo
Both objectify.
Both pleasure.

vs. Vibrator
Doesn't necessarily objectify.
Always pleasures.

Fleshlight is a terribly tacky name which in itself is a bit off-putting. Fleshlight is a name brand rather than a descriptor for a specific range of pleasure products. It attempts to look like a harmless flashlight - it hides its true purpose. You could say that it is ashamed of itself. Fleshlights are designed with men in mind - I suppose a woman could enjoy a fleshlight, but I haven't met a woman who does.

Dildo sounds like a kid's toy, which is a bit disconcerting. Dildos are not necessarily in the shape of a penis, but they are usually out in the open - screaming I'm a dildo! Dildos are not always gender-specific. Both men and women can enjoy dildos.

Vibrator sounds like a tool. Both men and women can enjoy vibrators.

Misandry, maybe. But I contest you're attempting to compare apples and oranges (and I threw in strawberries), and that's why you're coming up short.

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Vigilante

I suppose there is a stigma, but I would contend it is our (males) own fault. Guys are not open about masturbation like women are. For instance...

If a woman says she fingered herself in both holes while she got off, I tend to think that other women would laugh it off, assuming the discussion was already on the topic. Guys overhearing would think it's cool.

If a guy says he fingered his ass while he got off, the room would fall silent or you would hear audible cringes, regardless of if the topic of masturbation was being discussed or not. This is also assuming the group is not comprised of gay men who may feel more comfortable discussing the topic. In terms of majority samples of society, it isn't. Any women overhearing would most likely have a mixed reaction. I know my wife would go "ew". Some others might not. One of our best friends would probably get hot and bothered by the thought, but she is only one of a few that I have ever met that would.

That is part of the source of the stigma. Men do not care if women use toys, and for most straight men, any part of the female anatomy is simply delectable. I know I feel just fine licking any part of my wife, and if I was single, the same would go for nearly any hot girl I'm hooking up with. For women, the feeling isn't as mutual. Many women do not worship the dick as we do the cooch, and you have found a rare gift if you run into a girl that likes licking a guys ass.

All of this, to me, filters down to toys and discussion of toys as well. Guys do not discuss fleshlights or microwaved cantaloupes except in a joking manner. Male sexuality is an implied subject, not discussed in detail except when drunk, and it is quickly and purposefully forgotten the next day. Women, to me, would not get off to seeing a guy jerk off with a fleshlight. Guys, however, delight in watching a woman go to work with a dildo.

Now this is all from a guy's point of view, and of course the women we see on this site I tend to think of as more open than the general population. Guys as well. As an example, again, my wife would find zero interest in visiting here, yet I do. I am also much more open about my sexuality than she is.

Anyways, back to topic. Let's look at this more directly. I'll say the next numbers would be based on discussion of the topic followed by a short video. Of course, this is completely subjective and based on gut feeling or educated guess rather than any real study.
Chick with dildo - I'll say 95% of the male population would not have a single issue with this topic. Maybe 80% of the female population would not. Just an arbitrary guess, again
Guy with fleshlight - I would say 30% of the male population would be ok with this topic. 60% of the female population would be ok.

That is how I see it.

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Daniel_

Nobody ever accidentally a vibrator. The whole thing.

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girldetective

thanks, genuinegirly for your thoughtful answer.
it frees me up at this busy time.

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samcol

oh wow.....hahahahaah

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fast1

well its the same thing as a guy watching porn, he is considered sleazy but when a girl watches porn its "educational". i guess it is because the guy's mind is more tuned to sex and that is why less attention is given to men about sex cause they will somehow find ways to satisfy what they need...

yournamehere

I don't think there's a stigma attached at all, but that's just my perception. I mean, does anyone think men don't masturbate as often as women?

To me, the biggest difference has been in the lagging technology - women have had penis substitutes forever, but it took until just a few years ago to come up with a product that closely resembles the feel of a vagina. And yes, I'm speaking from experience - I bought a Fleshlight a few years ago. I no longer have it, because I thought the preparation time and the cleaning up time afterward outweighed the experience itself. But it's a very awesome experience for anyone who's been disappointed and felt ripped-off by inferior products in the past - and I'll admit to occasionally regretting throwing it away.

Genuinegirly - great point about men and women both being able to enjoy vibrators.
But I think we can give the people at Fleshlight a pass on disguising it as a flashlight or large can of beer. I mean, it's not like you display your dildos on your coffee table, right?
Besides - it's actually a case (literally) of form following function. The "action" end of the product includes the fake outside genitalia, and therefore needs to be a larger diameter than the rest of the tube. I don't think they originally set out to design something that looked like a flashlight; more likely the product got its name after the final prototype was produced.

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Shauk

The only stigma in my mind is trying to compete with that 8 pound gorrilla dildo.

Reese

I knew there was going to be an "I accidentally the whole thing" reference in this thread. Thank you Daniel.

All I have to say is you don't have to worry about the stigma of a fleshlight when you have whips, chains and cattle prods setting beside it.

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Xerxys

I'm also in the camp that it's because men are more tuned to sex hence the "negative" aspect. And vice versa.

And besides, I always thought fleshlight was called to cleverly disguise it's name.

"Dad, whats this?"
"Er ... That's my flashlight, I need it in case the lights go out"

Later on ...
Wife:"Honey, do you want me to get the fleshlight...?"
Jimmy:"Don't you mean flashlight? And why do you need it? The lights are not out." Flips light switch.
Dad:"JIMMY! Go back to bed!!"

Daniel_

Someone had to say it.

The truthful answer to the thread is that I have no idea why the issue exists but it certainly does.

But I'd never given it much thought - I guess the issue that everyone can enjoy a vibrator makes it less threatening.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

BCD

Here is my guess. Apologies in advance for generalizations.

Many women struggle to have orgasms. Even if they can regularly, it is with a lot more effort. A vibrator is almost a required tool to help them orgasm and learn how their body works.

Guys on the otherhand can orgasm simply by slamming the door on their dick for a few minutes. They also masturbate more often. A guy buying a fleshlight is like watching an obese person buying a gallon of ice cream, bottle of whipped cream, box of twinkies and a two liter of Pepsi.

jewels

I kinda agree with you. I know quite a few women my age that had never had an orgasm or had their first later in life when learned about Rabbits and such from girlfriends or cable shows. Because of this, it quickly became an acceptable tool in the bedroom for use either solo or as a couple.

Men are simply viewed as having it easier. I'm guessing there may be a slant on the sleaziness factor due to the anthropological evolution of male sexuality. Remember that not long ago, men were viewed as more manly the more notches they had in their bedpost and women were demure little things that only had sex when their husbands commanded it.

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inBOIL

To overgeneralize:

Women masturbate when they're having trouble having an orgasm - which is a perfectly normal thing that happens to all women.

Men masturbate when they're having trouble getting a woman - which reflects poorly on their manliness.

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Halx

Incoming female wrath...

gg makes a good point. If the Fleshlight were, say, just a sleeve with no formations to have you believe it was a vagina, then its stigma would be reduced. It would just become an enhanced masturbation tool as opposed to a cheap fantasy replacement for the real thing. This is why dildos (apart from the funny name) are looked at in a humorous fashion while vibrators are spared.

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little_tippler

ummm, you what?

women masturbate when they feel like it! Just like guys. We love to come just as much as you do.

Now tell me you were just kidding when you wrote that heh.


/return to thread discussion.

I don't know what other people think but I don't care if guys use a fleshlight. I don't think it's gross or sleazy if men masturbate. I think it's hot, and natural.

Look on the bright side, with all this talk of female masturbation, soon male masturbation will be the next hot topic

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We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
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To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

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cellophanedeity

I really like the idea of the Fleshlight. If I was a guy, I'd likely have the base and a couple different sleeves to keep myself entertained. None of the guys that I've offered to get one for have accepted, as they're more creeped out by it than I am.

But as for the stigma, it's a relatively new product, and people aren't used to seeing plastic vaginas. Give it a decade and no one will care.

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Bear Cub

Fleshlights are creepy, because Bear Cub personally tests each one before they leave the factory.

I love my job.

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mixedmedia

1. women masturbate for the same exact reasons men do.

2. don't want a stigma attached to your sex toys? Then don't attach one.

sheesh...

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yournamehere

I'm finding it difficult to determine at exactly whom you're directing your scorn.
Is it Fleshlight buyers, obese people, or people who watch obese people do their shopping?

So are you saying masturbating is not "manly"?
Or are you saying that no man in a relationship ever masturbates?

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If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
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inBOIL

Jesus christ, did anyone bother to read the first two words of my post? I'll try rephrasing: when a woman masturbates, nobody assumes it's because she can't get laid. There's no assumption of any sort of failure on her part, at least none that she can be faulted for. Men don't always escape this judgement.

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Charlatan

It wasn't long ago that vibrators and dildos had this sort of stigma attached to them as well. It's only been in recent years that women have been a lot more open about their sex toys.

That said, I am not sure that time will bring men's toys up to the same level. Growing up, there was always a stigma around boys (men) masturbating. It wasn't something guys talked about other than to make fun of another guy (at least the guys I hung out with... perhaps other guys were circle jerking with their buddies, but not me). As a result, male masturbation always had a bit of a stigma around it.

Also, I think there is something to idea that most male sex toys, until insertion toys like the Fleshlight came onto the market (no pun!), were solely novelty items. (Think: inflatible sex dolls... anyone who has ever tried one can tell you they suck... and not in the right way). As a result, male sex toys have yet to shake off the stigma of novelty.

Combine the issue of male masturbation with the novelty toy stigma and you have a recipe for comedy and shame (just think about the image that popped into your mind when I suggested in the paragraph above that I had actually used an inflatable sex doll and you will know what I am talking about).

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mixedmedia

yournamehere wins the thread!
And I never say that.

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BCD

No scorn from me. I don't have an issue with a fleshlight or any other toy used by a male. I was just trying to come up with a reason why they are perceived differently from vibrators and dildos. That's why my post started with "Here is my guess."

My analogy was to suggest that some might view male toys as unnecessary indulgences by a group that was already overly indulgent while female toys are treated as being more therapeutic in nature. Don't believe it myself, but simply trying to come up with a reason to help explain the perception. Would have been more clear had I had more time when I made the post.

Xerxys

^^ Heh, actually man, your post was very well written and quite grasped the concept well. I do believe I'm a good judge seeing as I am illiterate but unfortunately it is many TFPers habit to take things out of their intended context. I call it the oxymoron of intentional density. You understand but you choose not to.

But the added clarification is a plus.

yournamehere

Well, that made it much clearer. Thank you.
I inferred from your earlier post that it meant, "Men have hands to masturbate with; anything else is excessive and clogs your arteries."

The hairy palms I can live with; the clotting thing scared me.

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If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

genuinegirly

NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stupid, stupid male.

I started playing with myself when I was about 10. It was all about feeling good. I later realized it helped me relax. I had no idea what an orgasm was, so I never bothered to work up to one. It took no time whatsoever the first time a male friend showed me what an orgasm was. Told me it was possible - bam. Easy peasy. Most women are not sexually disfunctional as you have described. Maybe every woman doesn't have it as easy as me, but a vibrator is harly required. In fact, I am bothered that you think it is required. What kinds of women have you been with, really?

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Plan9

Hrrm, I don't think there should be any gender bashing in this thread. At least not by those who purport having been in a relationship or three.

If men weren't petulant horny dumbasses and women weren't emotional Rubik's Cubes, everybody would still be self-fucking their way to Valhalla via battery-operated bliss.

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Xerxys

BAD BAD BAD FEMALE!!

You must not do that, it is unCatholic and probably illegal in your state. Now you go back to your room and think about how such a bad person you've been.

jewels

Pure poetry, C!

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BCD

Wow. This is a post from a "Super Moderator"? I would have been banned from the TFP if I had started a response to your post by calling you a "stupid, stupid female."

As to the substance of your response, if you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that I NEVER said that "most women are ... sexually dysfunctional." I said that:

I'm happy for you that you've been playing with yourself since you were 10 and can orgasm easily. I've been with many women like you in this regard. You - and women like you - were not intended to be covered by my statement, which I acknowledged (and apologized for) as being a generalization.

However, just because this is true for you, it doesn't mean that my statement that "many women struggle to have orgasms" is not. If this were not the case, how can you explain the dozens of books on Amazon that teach a woman how to have an orgasm? Ever seen books or magazine columns teaching a guy how to have an orgasm? Also, how can you explain these statistics I found from a quick Google search:

- 5-10 percent of adult women in the U.S. have never experienced orgasm by any means of self or partner stimulation" (Spector & Carey, 1990).

- In a survey of 100 happily married couples, "48% of the women reported they sometimes had difficulty in getting sexually aroused, 46% reported intermittent difficulties in reaching orgasm, and 15% were completely unable to have an orgasm" (Heiman & Lopiccolo, 1976:24).

Hell, when I tried to Google to find out what percentage of men had never had an orgasm, I got the following message: "Did you mean: percentage women never orgasm"

If you think that my post lacks so much legitimacy that you called me "stupid," why did jewels reply:

To further substantiate that my "guess" on how the fleshlight and a vibrator are perceived differently might have some legitimacy, check out this:

Original Fleshlights at Fleshlight.com!

vs.

First Time Orgasm | Betty Dodson with Carlin Ross

You need to stop reading (and responding to) posts as though they are intended as a personal attack.

Jinn

I think the answer is simpler than most here are making it.

It's simply a matter of newness.

Vibrators were sleazy 30 years ago.

Now that it's permeated society and is in wide use, no one thinks twice about it.

IF it takes off (I'm not convinced it will) it'll be just as normal as using your hand in 30 more years.

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Iliftrocks

No matter how well you say something, and how carefully you qualify a statement, some people will read into your statement and take offense. A little careful reading and a stab at empathy might help some people become less defensive.

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Redlemon

There is a clear "cut-off" point for a dildo. It can incorporate the balls, or not, but there's not much remaining options there. A disembodied penis is complete.

However, with a Fleshlight/pussy, there's a bit of an "ew" factor. Where is the outer edge of a pussy? How much flesh comes along, and what do you do with the edge? For example, follow these links (I'm not NSFWing the thread yet)
http://www.adultnoveltyworld.com/Cli...5562-06-bx.jpg
Cassia Riley Pussy Stroker

Somehow, it seems to step away from "sexy" and become more "psycho killer chopping up body parts".

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jewels

I agree with that as well.

I can appreciate GGs sense of humor. Not that she needs me to defend her, but it seems to me she was merely stating her viewpoint in what I perceived as a lighthearted teasing way, based on what I know of her here at TFP.

Lighten up. She's good people.

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genuinegirly

I think I will. Can I bring my husband along to the bedroom for this contemplation?
Slow down, friend. I really didn't mean it in the way that you took it. You shared some great numbers with us because of the misunderstanding though...

awwwwwwwww, thanks

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

BCD

Re-read it and still didn't see the lighthearted teasing humor. However, lots of subtleties are lost in type. I hold no grudges and have forgiven and forgotten. The end.

snowy

I too have offered to purchase a Fleshlight for my SO, but he didn't care for the idea. Watching guys masturbate has always been a turn-on for me, so I find the Fleshlight to be an interesting product. And I agree that the stigma will likely subside after some time has passed.

This thread got me so turned on I had to go take care of it with my Hitachi Magic Wand, which is a "massager", not a vibrator (yeah right).

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