abaya

Hey man, I'm the first to agree with you on that point, but that's why I walked away from the Christian life itself. I decided the filthy rags were pretty damn fun, and comfortable to boot. Which means I'm most likely destined for hell (unless one believes in eternal salvation... some doctrines do)... but whoops, I don't believe in hell. Why should I?

BTW, I also agree with you on this point... it IS a conundrum, and the one that has been driving my posts on this thread. I don't think the two are inseparable, but as Parable says, maybe for some people they are (they can masturbate without lust). Lucky them.

For the rest of Christians who cannot separate masturbation from lust, the answer seems clear. Masturbation is one way of inviting the devil into one's house and having a beer with him, is it not? It is not fleeing from temptation. If one believes in the devil, one ought to take him damn seriously, I'd think. Would any pastor disagree?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

DaveOrion

You're NOT going to Hell, abaya! I dont know you personally, but from the posts of yours I've read, I can see you're a decent human being. Its Ok to have sex, its not dirty or filthy in any way, unless you make it so. Its alright to have some fun too, I do and it doesnt diminish whats deep in my heart. I try not to sweat the small shit, I do what I can.......you can too....


Ruth went to her mail box and
there was only one letter. but
She picked it up and looked at it before opening,
then she looked at the envelope again.
& nbsp; There was no stamp, no postmark, only her
name and address. She read the letter:
Dear Ruth:
I`m going to be in your neighborhood Saturday
afternoon and I'd like to stop by for a visit.
Love Always,
Jesus
Her hands were shaking as she placed the letter on
the table.
"Why would the Lord want to visit me?
I'm nobody special.
I don't have anything to offer."
With that thought, Ruth remembered her empty
kitchen c abinets.
"Oh my goodness, I really don't have anything to
offer. I'll have to run down to the store and buy
something for dinner."
She reached for her purse and counted out its
contents. Five dollars and forty cents.
Well, I can get some bread and cold cuts, at
least."
She threw on her coat and hurried out the door.
A loaf of French bread, a half-pound of sliced
turkey, and a carton of milk...leaving Ruth with
grand total twelve cents to last her until Monday.
Nonetheless, she felt good as she headed home, her
meager offerings tucked under her arm.

"Hey lady, can you help us,lady?"
Ruth had been so absorbed in her dinner plans,
she hadn't even noticed two figures huddled in the
alleyway.

A man and a woman, both of them dressed in
little more than rags.
"Look lady, I ain't got a job, ya know, and my wife
and I have been living out here on the street, and,
well, now it's getting cold and we're getting kinda
hungry and, well, if you could help us. Lady, we'd
really appreciate it."
Ruth looked at them both.
They were dirty, they smelled bad and frankly, she
was certain that they could get some kind of work
if they really wanted to
"Sir, I'd like to help you, but I'm a poor woman
myself. All I have is a few cold cuts and some bread,
and I'm having an important guest for dinner tonight and I
was planning on serving that to Him."
"Yeah, well, okay lady, I understand. Thanks anyway."
The man put his arm around the woman's shoulders,
turned and headed back into the alley.
As she watched them leave, Ruth felt a familiar
twinge in her heart.
"Sir, wait!"
The couple stopped and turned as she
ran down the alley after them.
"Look, why don't you take this food.
I'll figure out something else to serve my guest."
She handed the man her grocery bag.
"Thank you lady. Thank you very much!"
"Yes, thank you!" It was the man's wife, and Ruth
could see now that she was shivering.
"You know, I've got another coat at home.
Here, why don't you take this one."
Ruth unbuttoned her jacket and slipped it over the
woman's shoulders.
Then smiling, she turned and walked back to the
street...without her
coat and with nothing to serve
her guest.
"Thank you lady!
Thank you very much!"
Ruth was chilled by the time she reached her front
door, and worried too.
The Lord was coming to visit and she didn't
have any thing to offer Him.
She fumbled through her purse for the door key.
But as she did, she noticed another envelope in her
mailbox.
"That's odd. The mailman doesn't usually come
twice in one day."
Dear Ruth:
It was so good to see you again.
Thank you for the lovely meal.
And thank you, too, for the beautiful coat.
Love Always,
Jesus
The air was still cold, but even without her coat,
Ruth no longer noticed.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

abaya

Looks like we posted at the same time, Dave. Thanks for the "decent human being" compliment... I do appreciate it, but last I checked, being a decent human being isn't the same as accepting Christ as my savior and asking forgiveness for my sins, and thus avoiding eternal separation from God (hell). Which is one reason I stopped believing in hell, heh.

I am also in total agreement with you about sex, but that is not me speaking as a Christian. I had awesome sex long before I got married, and it was not dirty or filthy in any way (unless I wanted it to be) ... but it just didn't make any sense with who I was professing to be as a Christian. I was not seeking the Lord with all my heart, mind, body and soul, nor did I want to continue trying... because none of it made sense anymore. I was no longer human. My love for God led to obedience of his rules, but it also led to a bloody boring and stifled life where I felt utterly disconnected from 95% of humanity. I know it's not supposed to be that way, but that's how it turned out for me. So I walked away.

And I continue to enjoy all forms of sex and masturbation on a regular basis.

Btw... I know you won't agree with me on this point, but when I was a Christian, I was convinced that the devil was in the details. Literally. The whole "slippery slope" idea... once you surrender just a little bit to temptation, it makes it easier, and easier, and easier.

Hence my present position! Of going to hell (the one I don't believe in), or at least deeply offending God, according to people who are praying for me now. Oh, I could do with a little more temptation at the moment, actually.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

DaveOrion

Just let me be clear on this, you were raised as a fundamentalist Christian??? Or was this a Catholic up bringing??? One of the 2 probably, Because the conflict and guilt in you seems apparent....at least to me.

Both faiths are great at laying down the rules, and the guilt, if you cant seem to follow them all. Which I never have understood, because I was quite sure I read the New Testament and was able to gleen a primitive understanding, even with my feeble mind.

God Loves you abaya, and I'm quite fond of you. So there!!

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Infinite_Loser

You can be as "decent" as you want. That doesn't mean you're not going to hell

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

abaya

Heh, none of the above. I was baptized in the Lutheran church as an infant (by my Thai Buddhist mother), raised as an agnostic/Buddhist (very loosely), confirmed as a Lutheran (age 14, encouraged by my Buddhist mother to go along with my Icelandic father's tradition), became a Christian (also age 14, on my own), attended Baptist church throughout high school (on my own), enrolled in a Free Methodist-affiliated (evangelical) university for my undergrad (totally on my own), converted both my parents to evangelical Christianity (stepdad was a lapsed Catholic, mom a fervent Buddhist)... and then went out into the wide world, and lived.

That's exactly what I said a few posts back. Now, this man knows his doctrine. See, DaveMatrix? I AM going to hell. Come along for the ride, my fellow TFP'ers! I

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

DaveOrion

You're not going to hell. Hell is a life full of hate, greed, lies, and oppression, and then you die and cant do a damn thing about it.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Infinite_Loser

Oh... I thought Hell was a place of eternal suffering for those who deny God's truth. My mistake...

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

DaveOrion

Another literal interpretation of scripture.....they just keep comin...

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Infinite_Loser

You should be eternally grateful (HAH!) that I didn't use such phrases as "Lake of fire" and "Gnashing of teeth" .

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

DaveOrion

I bet you're alot of fun at a party.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Infinite_Loser

Yup

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

parable

The best explanation of hell I have ever read may be found in Dr. Gregory Boyd's book "God at War" (or is it "Satan and the Problem of Evil, I can't remember which)

My second favorite is found in CS Lewis's book "The Great Divorce".

My third favorite is Dante's 7th level (I think) where you are completely frozen, not burning.

Boyd essentially explains how hell can be a place of eternal torment yet also utter annihilation at the same time, as indicated by scripture. (paradoxical if you think about it) He is absolutely brilliant, definitely worth reading.

In all three authors, though, hell is a place you choose for yourself.

As Lewis said, the gates of hell are locked from within.

Parable

abaya

You know what, Dave? You're alright. This was actually the exact same "interpretation" of hell that I came up with, after all my years believing in the traditional sulphurous hot lakes (Iceland?), gnashing-of-teeth (I do that at night), eternal separation from God definition of hell. (That's the one I stopped believing in.)

But, consulting with many other Christians and reading up quite a bit, my interpretation of hell (same as yours) wasn't terribly doctrinal. I still "believe" in that one (hell for the living, as a result of all the hurt we cause ourselves and each other), but instead call it "karma" because that simply makes more sense. Buddhism is good for those kinds of concepts.

So, Infinite Loser, how about the question that started this thread (in the subject)? I'm interested if you agree with all my pontificating about it thus far, from a Christian perspective (which is not my own).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

parable

Surprise You're Dead, by Faith No More

"Surprise! youre dead!
Ha ha! open your eyes
See the world as it used to be when you used to be in it
When you were alive and when you were in love
And when I took it from you!
Its not over yet
You dont remember?
I wont let you forget
The hatred I bestowed
Upon your neck with a fatal blow
From my teeth and my tongue
Ive drank and swallowed, but its just begun
Now you are mine
Ill keep killing you until the end of time
Surprise! youre dead!
Guess what?
It never ends...
The pain, the torment and torture, profanity
Nausea, suffering, perversion, calamity
You cant get away"

3 guesses as to who is singing to the damned....

__________________
"If you aren't confused, you haven't been paying attention."

DaveOrion

Its all in the interpretation, just as Parable said earlier, some scripture may be taken literally, others seen as a mythical or allegorical, and so on. I dont follow a fundamentalist approach, and I have beliefs that follow other faiths, which I mentioned in the 'We are God' thread. They're definitely not doctrinal, but I consider that a good thing. Fundamentalist would almost certainly consider me a blasphemer or hypocritical, but thats cool with me, judge not...and all that.

Its either Mephastophales, Keith Richards, or GW Bush. Has to be one of em...

I've always liked this song.

Queen - The Prophets Song

Oh Oh people on the earth
Listen to the warning
The seer he said
Beware the storm that gathers here
Listen to the wise man.

I dreamed I saw on a moonlit stair
Spreading his hands on the multitude there
A man who cried for a love gone stale
And ice cold hearts of charity bare.
I watch as fear took the old men's gaze
Hopes of the young in troubled graves
I see no day, I heard him say
So grey is the face of every mortal.

Oh Oh people on the earth
Listen to the warning
The prophet he said
For soon the cold of night will fall
Summoned by your own hand.

Oh Oh children of the land
Quicken to the new life
Take my hand
Fly and find the new green bough
Return like a white dove.

He told of death as a bone white haze
Taking the lost and the unloved babe
Late too late all the wretches run
These kings of beasts now counting their days.
From mother's love is the son estranged
Married his own his precious gain
The earth will shake in two will break
And death all around will be your dow'ry


Oh Oh people of the earth
Listen to the warning the seer he said
For those who hear and mark my words
Listen to the good plan.

Oh Oh - and two by two my human zoo

They'll be
runnung for to come
running for to come
out of the rain

Flee for your life
Who heed me not, let all your treasure make you
Fear for your life
Deceive you not the fires of hell will take you
Should death await you.

God give you grace to purge this place
And peace all around may be your fortune.

Oh Oh children of the land
Love is still the answer, take my hand
The vision fades, a voice I hear

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Tirian

re: debauchery-filled images...

I find this concept filled with irony. I read somewhere the following, although it may be loosely quoted;

"Common church doctrine seems to teach, sex is a dirty, disgusting, (debaucherous) thing, and should be saved for someone you love"

I know that not all churches literally teach sex to be dirty and debaucherous, but many seem to leave that impression. I found the quote to be rooted in truth in my experience.

Im with DaveMatrix....."Making Love to a woman is a beautiful & pleasurable experience, and isnt gross, nasty, debaucherous, sinful, lecherous, or distasteful in the least."

abaya

I don't think anyone's against the idea... at least I hope not. The fact, though, is that based on the Bible, thinking about making love to a woman other than one's wife is a sin, and that's where the lust comes in and the devil gets a foothold and all that crap. That's what I have a problem with... that the church teaches that everyone must lock down their minds completely and refuse to be human. I know that some people succeed at doing so, and take on some kind of mystical personality as a result of all their "discipline." But it creeps me out, personally, to repress so much of what is natural. Once again, another reason I'm no longer part of the church.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

DaveOrion

I think there is a major difference between, a married man lusting after a woman he's actually met and then masturbating or contemplating adultery, and a guy who just masturbates thinking of a woman. The former has intent, he is sexually attracted to her and wants to have sex outside his marriege. The later has no intent, IMO....

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Clare

i agree DaveMatrix if i found out my boyfriend was masturbating over pictures/ videos of people he knew or had spoke to even, then i would be really upset but porn is fine by me, its natural for men to look but if the connection between him the person hes looking at is more personal then it would hurt