Sultana

While on vacation last week, I was introduced to a series on VH1 called "The Pickup Artist". Granted, I watched only one episode, but it seemed interesting (and hilarious), watching these poor boys learn about women and self-confidence. My girlfriend there is a big fan of the show, and told me about the main character's (Mystery--heh) new book "The Mystery Method - How to Get Beautiful Women in Bed".

Intrigued, I've been reading the book reviews on Amazon.

Now I have no problem with people of either sex getting pointers in approaching the other, learning how to fake confidence long enough to actually posess it, polishing social skills, or even learning how to take control of a social situation and steering it in a desired direction (in a respectful way).

That's how the show appeared to me to be.

However, and I haven't yet read the book (trying to decide if I want to spend the $), it seems that the devotees of the book have a rather decided "pitched battle of the sexes" viewpoint. And obviously, by the title of the book alone, only those women considered physically *beautiful* (8-10 on a personal scale of attractiveness) are the ones worth expending this energy for. Which is a put off for me.

I'm still interested in reading this book to observe the social interaction formats perpetuated, to be aware if a "technique" is being used on me (although I don't think this is likely, as I don't really club or stuff like that, as of now). Curiosity is a big factor.

Has anyone else read this book? what are your thoughts?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

dirtyrascal7

I haven't read "The Mystery Method", but I have read "The Game". If you're interested in gaining more insight into this phenomenon of Pickup Artists, I'd recommend reading it first. It is a non-fiction novel (not a "how-to" book), and talks more about the culture and people involved. It does mention quite a few of the routines they use, but doesn't really go in-depth in how to perform them.

A friend of mine suggested I read it earlier this summer, and while I don't think I'd ever attempt to pick up girls in such a formulaic and structured way, the book did open my eyes to the fact that connecting with people and forming bonds is something that can be learned, it does not have to be something you were "born with". Either way, it was a highly entertaining story and it was worth the time invested.

__________________
"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

Willravel

Pickup artists are the worst kind of artificial. Instead of taking time to develop this facade, maybe they should spend time actually building their confidence, interests, and abilities. I can't imagine the artificial stuff really being able to last in a relationship, and that's pretty damn inconsiderate of the woman's feelings (or the man's, if you're a female pick up artist, which would be easy). Back in my day, a man would walk up to a woman he fancied and strike up an authentic conversation about something he was interested in that he figured that she might be interested in, too (a topic like, say, the lady in question). When he's approached her, he already has confidence, intellect, and something interesting to say. It's a part of who he is.

Yeesh.

Racnad

The pickup artist/dating guru phenomenon has both a positive and a negative side.

Typically these programs start with the positive: social skills for men who lack them. How to talk to women with confidence. Wear clean clothes and brush your teeth. Don't stare at her boobs while talking to her.

But then the negatve: phony manipulative tricks, and a confrontational mentality: her vagina becomes the goal/end zone, and her defences are the opposing team. You must outwit and outplay the opposing team to reach the goal.

Why should hooking up be appoached like a compatitive game where winning means defeating the opposition? Because women readily hook up with some men, but avoid others. To the men who have trouble establishing romantic/sexual relationships, trying to date women and take it beyond "just friends" feels like trying to run a football to the end zone with eleven opposing players in your way. They are told "just be yourself," but for them, "yourself" is not what most women are looking for.

When emotionally mature men and emotionally mature women meet, all that crap isn't necessary. But many women are emotionally immature, so men who do not fit the profile of what appeals to them (good looking, rich, etc), have to resort to manipulative tricks, or wait months or years until they happen to meet my chance a woman who responds to them the way they are.

World's King

I've been called a pick up artist. Some times in a good way... some times not.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Plan9

/CROMPSIN CUES HENRY ROLLINS' "MEKANIK" DIATRIBE EXCERPTS:

Quote:

Like when you go out on the date. You know what you want to do. She knows what you want to do. You say the same thing you said to the her last time, but to a different girl... and she's going to say the same thing she said last time, but to a different guy, IE you. And she'll say it to you... And after the 80-millionth girl or boy you go through, do you ever think you are getting a new experience? Or are you just putting on the same old record and playing it again... while sticking your dick through the hole... but in the record... not her. Do you ever feel like you're getting used? Well, you are! All the time it's a game, it's all mechanics, that's all there is. What the hell do you think you are? You're nothing but an animal! You're brain is nothing, your head is spinning from love and bullshit. The guy just wants to get it in you, that's all. The words and phrases he uses are just symbols that you have learned to understand to reinforce the lie. It's all different ways of saying the same thing. You're no different. You pick the lie that you feel the least uncomfortable with and go with it. Don't you see that you lie to yourself every time you think that he loves you? There's not much to life. You do a lot of bullshitting to make it look like there is some big deal to it, looking for all this meaning in simple biology. The guys got ya beat there and ya know why? Because most of them are stupid, not much different than dogs, not much different than lab rats pushing on buttons to get food. We just want to fuck you, MILLIONS JUST WANT TO FUCK YOU. And the ones that get the most are the ones that know how to tell you what you want to hear the best.

Pick Up Artist. Sexual mercenary. Vaginal Plumber. It's all a game. We're all animals.

These are the concepts.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Sultana

Hmm. I guess younger, more naive girls would like to imagine that there is a "True Connection" (tm) every time a guy hits on them successfully, but god, I hope that's not the majority of the cases.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Plan9

Yeah, his last line always gets me.

I like to recite the complete piece at coffee houses.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

mfh

I think the idea is that when someone applies the "technique" correctly, you won't be able to tell what's going on at all, regardless of whether you are familiar with how it works.

I haven't read the book or watched the show, but what other end goal could there possibly be?

And really, in the end, a guy trying to pick you up is either going to be successful or not. The ones that have been successful in the past are probably doing the same "techniques" as the ones taught by this series/book (without having read or seen the show), so what exactly is the difference here?

Nothing at all.

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mike

JumpinJesus

Henry Rollins has a way of making you say to yourself, "What's the fucking point?"

Family Man.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

shakran

Well first off, calling it "How to get really ugly women in bed" probably wouldn't sell many books. It was a marketing ploy.

Second, I find anything that tries to give you instructions on how to, for all intents and purposes, trick a woman into sleeping with you, rather distasteful. But then I'm an old fashioned, and old, coot who still has those silly ideas that women should choose to sleep with me because of who I am, not because of who I pretend to be in order to get them in the sack

MrFriendly

Like dirtyrascal7, I would also recommend people read The Game.

The writer goes on to point out how becoming a pick up artist started to alienate him more from women than ever before, and that although he now found it easier to pick up women and get them into bed, he still had no real clue how to keep them for any length of time.

What I loved about the book was that he came across someone he really did want to be with and had a connection with and all his little tricks went straight out the window and he was back to square one.

I can certainly understand guys who don't have a lot of confidence needing something to break the ice when talking to women, and having something in which to develop their confidence. But I just find the whole way the culture of pick up artists go about it to be way too cold and clinical. This idea that the opposite sex is to be conquered, with sex being the entire objective using trickery and what I consider mind control is a little sad and pathetic.

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You are not a slave

Plan9

Oh, I concur, Mr. Friendly-pants.

I guess the grand GI Joe life lesson here is: When you start treating the opposite sex as a search-'n-destroy mission through manipulation training... you only further alienate yourselves from their actual humanity instead of becoming more in tune with it. They become a meat target for your reproduction-motivated bio-weapons (crotchbat, crotchhole) in a sick game of human soul spectrum (emotional, mental, physical) chess.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

tecoyah

It seems to me the "pick-Up" mentality is a matter of age, though not the physical one. I cant speak for all guys by any means, but I went through the Slut stage once I found out I could be one. It took awhile to figure out (or sow the oats), the unfulfilling nature of just looking to get laid. Young men, or boys, often need to pad the ego quite a bit to be comfortable enough with themselves to actually look at women as something beyond breast owners. The show (yes, I have seen it) looks like a way to get the confidence impaired to get to stage one in the boy game, and nothing more. The host probably has more ego issues going on than all the kids he pretends to help in the first place...its almost funny to watch.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Racnad

That's what I thought while I was single. Unfortunately, women choose not to sleep with me, apparently because of who I was, so I had to figure out what I needed to be instead.

mfh

LOL so what'd you do?

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mike

Plan9

Put a paper bag on his head and told them he was beautiful on the inside.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Racnad

I learned to not open up too much in the first few dates, don't call too often, don't get emotionally connected too quickly, and generally stop being so "nice."

Seaver

I suggest everyone watch one episode of what he's talking about... and you'll see what I'm talking about.

The guy is a fake.

That's right, the guy is a fake.

This guy wears Ali-G glasses and a Slash Top-Hat. There is no way this guy got girls to have sex with him without money involved before he got "famous." I'm suspecting he is related to an MTV exec and wouldn't stop bugging his family to find him a job. Naturally working for MTV this exec had no idea what was cool and simply assumed he was it.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

MrFriendly

If this is the same "Mystery" that I'm thinking of, which will be the same "Mystery" that Niel Strauss talks about in his book The Game, then he isn't a fake.

All that cheap tacky crap that he wears, which he knows is cheap and tacky, as actually one of the tactics they use. The more outrageous the tackiness the more attention it attracts. It's termed 'Peacocking'.

Once again, The Game, read it. It you want an extremely interesting insight into this world of pick up artists, this is the book for you. And "Mystery" is one of the main characters of this book and one of the founders of this culture.

__________________
You are not a slave

ASU2003

He goes a little too far with the 'peacocking', but you do need to have something to talk about when you first meet someone you have never talked to before. And it is easier for the girl to ask you something about what you are wearing than some personal question. Girls tend not to talk to the average plain desperate guy, so you might have to work on yourself, your social skills, or your personality to become more attractive to girls. And it is even better if you can get the girl to come and talk to you first. That way there is less fear of rejection. Especially if you have the social skills to figure out if she is interested in you without being upfront about it right away.

The movie Office Space is a good example of these techniques used in a more normal real world type of setting, rather than at bars and parties. 'Peacocking' (I hate that word),doesn't have to be a piece of clothing but there has to be something that two people an talk about to get more comfortable with each other.

I haven't read the book yet, but I bet what is common sense to half the guys about flirting and relationships are totally foreign to the other half. The guys that had something unique about them in school growing up (on a sports team, had lots of friends, had a cool car, threw parties, or more money) would have a easier time starting a conversation with girls than the normal guy that would only be able to talk about school and the weather initially. Then the normal guy's self esteem and confidence goes down, and they don't learn anything about interacting with girls.

So while this guy Mystery might over do it for shock value and to get publicity, he does make some good points on what the successful behavior males use in real life.

ChrisJericho

I think the show has some useful pointers. Me and my roommate were having a conversation the other day about how the girls we have dated have all been through friends, or work, etc. and how hard it is to just to talk to a random girl you see in the grocery store for example.

Just seeing how it IS possible to approach girls in public (especially when they are in their defensive packs) is somewhat inspiring. I also found it interesting
when the show first started that mystery commented on how the contestants were all dressed to 'fit in' when in public, and this is exactly what you shouldn't do. (This is the peacocking that other posters have referred to).

The show has given me some things to think about, and I must admit it is very entertaining.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

ngdawg

Wow...he's even taller than Conan! He doesn't need binoculars to get attention.

I think 'Pick up artist' has horrible conotations and if I ever had an inkling I was being approached by one, my wall would spring right up(which kind of happened this evening at a party when someone half shitfaced tried to talk to me.)
What he touched upon in the youtube clip is logic that often is lost on those who only want to get laid and don't think about the long term.
I've seen bits and pieces of the show, along with commercials of it and he puts the guys into situations where they have to either work it out or fail; each success is a boost to confidence. But I am a firm believer in the idea that things always fall as they should if you work on any goal. Succeed or fail, that was what was meant to occur so you could move on.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

MSD

There is value in having confidence when approaching women. The pickup artists, however, are typically scum. From what I know about them and the self-proclaimed pickup artists I've met, I would not voluntarily associate myself with them.

Apokx

I don't think I could hold it against a guy for trying to play a game or pretend to be something he isn't just to get some ass. Girls probably ignore him otherwise. What I found interesting more than anything though was him not being able to keep the girl he actually liked.

Being yourself doesen't work for everyone, but pretending didn't work for him either.

I would imagine it would be very hard trying to recondition yourself socially, which is why he cant follow through and keep the ones he likes.

JumpinJesus

Pick-up artists are a lot like Karl Rove.

They know how to get elected, but they can't for the life of them govern.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Seaver

Heh, since when was Karl Rove elected?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

MSD

Now that I have TV reconnected, I saw the show on VH1 today, and it was hilarious. As bad as PUAs are, Mystery seemed to be focusing mainly on how to present yourself and make the impression you want, and he was spot on for most of it.

Sultana

Yeah, the show doesn't seem disrespectful to women, it's much more about training those poor boys how to conduct themselves around chicks, omg.

I have to say I quite enjoy it.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Apokx

After reading this thread I decided to watch a couple episodes. For being a pickup artist Mystery seems like an alright guy. Like you said, he isnt disrespectful(even to strippers)and just shows the guys how to be interesting and desireable to any woman that would turn them down otherwise.

I will be watching the rest of the season(and more if they continue producing it).

MSD

Mystery is a complete douche (not entirely in a bad way,) but he really focuses on what guys are doing wrong and how they can improve their presentation rather than how to trick women into sleeping with you. The PUAs I object to are the ones who formulate methods for how to insult a hot woman just enough to bring her down to your level, then make your move; the kind who see sex and dating as an us-versus-them game.

Sultana

Ummm, clarify this statement, please.


I suppose it depends on the PoV. There are definitely women out there who need to be taken down a notch, which gets their attention. I think what matters is if there is disrespect involved or not, which is completely relative to each guy. It's just one method of many, and there are a ton of guys who are so overwhelmed by physical beauty that it renders them (socially) impotent.

I still like the show quite a lot, and am wondering if the book is along the same lines.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

MSD

You've never met someone who is a lovable douche? How about lovable asshole?

Plan9

I've been called a lovable asshole before.

I'm not married to her anymore, either.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Apokx

Heh this thread and watching Pickup Artist reminds me of a thread that used to be on the TFP by Plan9 I think.

Had alot of similar techniques like "Negging" the target but he referred to it as penetrating the "bitch shield". Just really interesting to see similarities bewteen someone who does this professionally and some random guy from the internet.


Also, I've been called an asshole, but never a loveable one. That's a special gift you have there.

match000

How is Mystery any different from any other PUA's? His method certainly involves negs at some point, which are the insults you are referring to. He might not be doing it on TV, but he does do it too.

Redlemon

Plan9's thread was Getting Girls 101, over in the Hall of Fame. Also, he was banned in the middle of that thread.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Plan9

Hahaha...

"They can't Plan 9. He's the Crimson Ghost!"

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

waltert

while I think that there is some validity to what you're saying, I can also see the other side of the coin. I am quite shy around strangers, so I'm usually quiet, and reserved...the things that I do say to people are very concise, and well thought out (probably so as not to expose any weakness). I usually come off as a prick (and not the likable kind) to people until they get to know me.

however, I can make very good conversation with people that I'm comfortable around, and am a genuinely nice guy.

now imagine me trying to meet a girl in a social situation like a party, etc. It would almost surely be a total cluster f*ck.

the people that I make friends with are almost always people that I have to see regularly (roomates, neighbors, maybe classmates, etc). and so I have a very narrow selection of women to choose from unless I develop some sort of technique for luring them in long enough to where they get to know me.

just as an idea...Im 21 and have had one "girlfriend". we had Spanish class together for a year...and she sat next to me...it was not until after the class was over that we began dating.

Apokx

I never got to read the entire thing all the way through, but I remember getting annoyed because people were getting so offended by it. Should have just stayed a Q and A thread. If someone thought he was wrong thats fine, but its understood that generalizations don't apply to every single person in the world.


Time to read the entire thing, was a 10 on the amusement scale.