Bossnass

I don't think any of us is in a position to make a general rule.

My point is that being biologically related as cousin does not have any strong correlation to being related in a social sense,

Biologically unrelated siblings (adoptions, step-siblings) that are raised together, in my opinion, shouldn't have any sexual interaction. That kicks my "ick" factor on.

However, partially biologically related people who have had little interaction with each other throughout their lives doesn't offend me.

Further, and somewhat contradictory, "long lost" direct relatives also shouldn't have sexual activity together. For obvious icky arbitrary reasons.

hunnychile

Only one special cuz...but luckily he was adopted and so was I.
We seldom see eachother anymore, but when we do, we both have a special smile to share. We were both of age, too - so it wasn't like he robbed the cradle! Experiencing him was well worth the energy spent!!

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

zed wolf

I didn't say before as I was mostly just answering the direct question of had I laid a cousin before but here are my thoughts.
I don't have a problem with it. I have some pretty hot cousins that I would love to get in bed. And, I have had occasional thoughts about one of my sisters as I think she is really cute. I'm not sure if I would really do anything with her though but thats more from cultural pressures then anything. When it comes down to it I try to make my own rules for my life not what other people think I should do.
I have not had sex or any sexual relations with anyone I am related to though. If the opportunity presented its self though I would do it.
Oh, and willravel, if you post the poll I will answer it honestly. Just make sure you really want to know the answer.

ShaniFaye

um Deltona thats what I said, you quoted someone one that said first cousins share the same grandparents and said it was incorrect, I was just pointing out it couldnt be incorrect

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Miss Mango

I wouldnt do it, but if consenting adults indulge in it and there is no scope for abuse, I have no problem. Cant force my personal ethics upon others.

Its common for Muslims to marry their cousins and incest is accepted in certain old tribal societies, so incest is also rooted in tradition in some places. Whether that trend is healthy is a matter of debate as always. Plus, innumerable recent researches show that marriage/sexual relations within the family is liable to cause birth defects in the children.

I remember a friend remarking that the entire human race is a product of an incestual relationship, because there would have been copulation/sexual relations within the first human family itself for the progeny to continue. And then he went off on a tangent about religion and something about incest in the Bible.

Willravel

A mental mind set? Hardly. It's the hypothetical genetic similarities between my wife and I that would have greatly increased the probaility that a genetic problem could have negatively effected my daughter, the most precious thing in the world to me. That's what my opinions are formulated upon, not a so called "small portion of ignorant society".

If my wife and I were related, which we absolutely are not, I would seriously consider becoming asexual. I would raise my daughter, release my wife from her responsibility to be faithful (I wouldn't want her to be celebate for the rest of her life, that's her decision), and I would simply live out the rest of my life. I'll never stop loving her, of course, but sexuality with a first cousin is wrong, and that will not change in my mind.
Please read my posts carefully before correcting them. I used the word "like" in comparing half siblings with cousins. The word "like" was used as a simile, or a word to make a comparison between two unlike things. The comparison was not direct. If I say, "She is like a rose", I am not saying that she grew from a seed pod.
Coincedence, I'm sure. Also, I support gay marriage, but I'd never marry a dude. I'm going to have to ponder if the comparison between homosexuality and incest of the cousin-to-cousin type is very different. Cousin to cousin can produce healthy offspring, where as homosexual couples require an incubator or cogenitor. The flip side is of course that incestual relationships are much more generally considered as taboo in many cultures than homosexuality.
OH, you mean a zoophilia poll. I'm not really interested in it. Honestly, I'm not interested in homosexuality, pedophilia, incest, zoophilia, etc (please do not take that I am comparaing those things except that they are considered by some to be taboo). The nice thing about being a liberal like myself, is that I will fight for the rights of others, even if they trigger an ick factor. While it's obvious from my posts in this thread that the cousin thing hits a major ick factor in me (as once did homosexuality, and as pedophilia and zoophilia still do), but what you do in the comfort of your home, so long as it doesn't hurt or take advantage of anyone, is fine with me. I hope that's always clear.

At the end of the day, you're behavior is your own and if it doesn't hurt anyone, what does it matter if it makes other people go 'ick'?

zed wolf

That one. Although I misrepresented it as a poll instead of a thread, my bad.

McDuffie

I did read your post carefully.

There was nothing in your post to lead anyone to believe that you were speaking in a figurative sense. You weren't.

You meant close relative, like a half brother or half sister. First cousins are not that close. In fact, they are exactly twice as "far" away from you, genetically speaking, as your half-brother or half-sister.

Don't kid yourself, kid: reading your post carefully doesn't reveal that you were using a simile, and reading my post after reading yours, and then your response quoted above, reveals that you know you were corrected.

Willravel

Your mind reading abilities leave much to be desired.

I'm sorry you missed the comparison between two different family members, but that hardly means that I didn't make the compariosn. Are you fimilair with the concept of perception and conclusion? You read something, you give it context based on experience, then you draw a conclusion. Somewhere in there, probably in the experience thing as you might not have much experience with using or percieving similes, there was a simple mistake. No harm done.
My next door neighbor is closer to me than the person 2 doors down, but they are both neighbors, and are definately in my neighborhood. My half sibling is closer to me than my cousin, but they are both close relatives and they definately include some of the same genetics.
So to review: you misread my post, I correct you, then you call me 'kid' in a clearly condescending manner. You're quite the charmer.

Zeraph

Yeesh, where do I begin? You compared just having sex with a first cousin (not even having children) to having sex with animals, otherwise known as bestiality. Yet apparently your opinions are formulated on your knowledge of genetics. Which book did you read that one in?

Where are your sources that say it "greatly increases" (in realitys it's something like a 2% higher chance, and they have genetic counseling or whatever its called for those 2%) the chance for genetic problems?

And it is a small ignorant portion of society, its something like only 26 states here in the US, and legal everywhere else in the world just about (and most of history). And those 26 states were based on old genetic research. Current research shows it's not a problem.

If your going to damn about 20% of the world's population then maybe you should form your opinions on current research instead of outdated beliefs.

Willravel

Yes, it is about 2%. Let me make this perfectly clear: if I am to choose between a 2% chance of homozygosity and a .000001% chance of homozygosity in my daughter, which do you think I'd choose? I know the odds, and I'm not interested in playing them at the possible (2% possible) detriment of my offspring.

Just a suggestion to everyone in general: start with the assumption that someone isn't ignorant and go from there. If you find out later, then there you go, live and learn. If you assume someone is ignorant and then find out they aren't you could hurt someone's feelings if they respect your opinion.
I'm damning people? Did you read the last part of the post you quoted from? Please read the last paragraph. Here it is:

McDuffie

Obviously, since I only talked about what was in your post and didn't speculate beyond it, I wasn't mind reading, attempting to mind read, or pretending that I could mind read.

You are dismissed.

Willravel

You were just fine until you made the statement "You weren't". That was where you moved from speculating what I was communicating to stating that you knew what I was communicating, and you really couldn't know that without being able to read my mind.

Maybe it's time to end this threadjack.

McDuffie

I am glad I decided to go ahead and read the rest of your post after all.

Yeah, I am reel dum. I dint no wut a quote unquote simile wuz untell u mentioned it before. I axed my daddy wut u ment and he told me 2 axe uncle granpa. See uncle granpa's reel smart. He done been threw 7th grade 2 times. He was so good at it, they told him he dint have 2 come back.

I just love it when I am accused of not being smart or educated by people who write crap sentences like this:

Willravel

I offered to end this, but fine. What you quoted is called a paragraph, not a sentence. If you're going to call my intelligence into question, you should make sure your on solid ground yourself.

You misunderstood a simile. Get over yourself. It's no more complicated than that. I'm not calling you stupid. It's obvious that you're a little more than confrontational at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't make you stupid necessarily. I would suggest that you read the dictionary.com definition of the word 'simile':
I hope that makes it more clear. 'like' was used as a simile, and I think screwing your cousin is gross.

That's it.

McDuffie

The word sentenceS is the plural form of the word sentence. That means two or more. Paragraphs are composed of sentenceS.

Get it now? You aren't dealing with an idiot. I would be willing to bet a great sum of money that I know at least as much about english composition as you.

Presuming to educate me on similes?

I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that I knew what a simile was, and how to use and recognize a simile, when you were still shitting in your diapers.

Edit: I'll give you bonus points if you figure out what my actual grammatical error was. Because you didn't catch it so far.

ShaniFaye

If you look at it from a religious standpoint.... cousins having sex with cousins is not one of the forbidden relationships as defined in Leviticus where as sex between "steps" was

Between parents and children Leviticus 18:7-8
Between stepparents and stepchildren Leviticus 18:8, 17
With your paternal or maternal aunt Leviticus 18:12-13
With your uncle or aunt Leviticus 18:14
Between brother and sister and half-brother and half-sister Leviticus 18:9
Between stepbrothers and stepsisters Leviticus 18:11
With your daughter-in-law Leviticus 18:15
With your sister-in-law Leviticus 18:16
With your granddaughter Leviticus 18:10
With your step-granddaughter Leviticus 18:17

and the United States is the only country with laws about such, even Mexico and Canada allow it

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

McDuffie

Who's the mind reader?
Absolutely not.

You don't get to decide whether I am confrontational or stupid. You aren't in any position to judge anything about me.

No thank you. I have received formal training in writing. That's why I don't need some little goofball on the the internet giving me ad hoc lessons in figurative writing citing a half-assed online dictionary as a source.

Intense1

To join the current fray, McDuffie, it appears you have lost the context in which willravel was speaking. See above for "I think", "I have always understood" and "I see". These are value statements, and are not meant to be absolutes. You seem to be trying to make willravel's posts into something you can hunt down and shoot. You've shot, and missed, as evidenced by this post:

My cousin is like my brother, but that doesn't mean that I am comparing the DNA of the two of them when I make that statement. It offers a view into the status of a relationship or a view into the belief system of my family's dynamics and mores. Some people do not believe it is morally acceptable to have sex with a blood relative, especially if they're close DNA wise. I am one of those as well, yet I don't judge those who have done so. Just because I believe it's not right, doesn't make those who have done the cousin thing "bad people".

And I thought this was the topic of this thread, not trying to pick fights with someone who just stated their opinion.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Willravel

I'm sorry this went on so much. Hopefully we can move on now. Thanks for the help Intense1. It's good to know that others get it too.

ShaniFaye

for more information, incest is defined as sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom. So only in the United States is cousin/cousin sex "incest"

can we please stop this stupid fighting and get back to the discussion at hand? I personally could give a crap about a grammar lesson and who can or can not write a correctly structured sentence

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

McDuffie

The story is actually this: you fucked up. Instead of saying"Oops, gee, you are right. I guess cousins aren't really that close after all" you made up some bullshit excuse, and on top of your bullshit excuse, you implied that it was my lack of education, not your lack of clarity, that was the source of the confusion.

And I have no "shell" to come out of. This forum was interesting once. I thought maybe it might be again. It isn't. If I am banned, I won't shed a single tear. If I am not banned, I may post again, or I may not.

You really need to work on that mind reading, bud.



I was actually responding to someone who was picking a fight with me.

EDIT: Oh yes, there is one other thing to which I absolutely must take exception: I have not ever gotten "really mad" at anyone on the internet ever. I have not even gotten anymore than slightly annoyed, and what you did here in this thread got me nowhere near slightly annoyed. I can post a link to a thread in another forum in which I was annoyed with someone, if you want to compare.

I just wanted to clear that up. People online do not anger me, ever. It is my opinion that people who get angered by people they encounter in forums or chatrooms probably should not ever get into forums or chatrooms.

That is all I have to say on that. That is my last correction to any of your posts.

Zeraph

Ok, the damning part was off, but try and see it from my perspective, when I read your first argument of the "dude, wtf..." it's going to color my opinion of you.

And sure, if 2% difference makes that much of a difference to you then fine, but my main beef with you is your slur (or what have you) about bestiality and cousins.

You say that that small % difference is what does it for you, but non related couples can have genetic problems too. Did you and your wife get checked out before deciding to have a child? See a genetics counselor?

Life is about taking risks, if first cousins want to spend the rest of their lives together a 2% difference shouldn't keep them apart and they shouldn't have to hear disparaging baseless comments about their lifestyle because of it.

Willravel

Understood. I was really thrown and did make a knee jerk reaction.
All I meant by that is that they were both things that triggered an ick. I woulnd't assume to tell people what to do. I just wanted to give my opinion.
Yes. Because of my heart condition, a coarctation of the aorta, there was a roughly 4% chance that my offspring could have some sort of defect, though the doctor assured me that if it happened, the odds of it being a major defect were infantesimal. My wife's family had no history of heart defects, so we decided to go ahead.
Nor should that 2% keep them apart. I make decisions about my life and they theirs.

Intense1

So what you're saying is that posting "fuck you, you little dipshit", and telling someone they wrote "fucked up posts" and the best one "you're dismissed", isn't getting angered? Perhaps you should go back and read the guidelines of posting on TFP, McDuffie.

Dang, if you post like this when you're not ANGERED, then perhaps you send special internet postal bombs when you are.....

Look at the rest of the posts, McDuffie - see how we're trying to have an intelligent discourse and get over yourself, please.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Zeraph

Arguments aside, for your own edification I hope that you'll re-evaluate the pillars of your belief. Above you clearly state that your opinion is based on the risk factor involved, yet you just admitted (1) you have a heart problem and played the odds (no matter how small) in passing that on to your daughter. Is that really much different?

Philosophically, just because you protect freedom of choice doesn't mean you should believe willy nilly because your opinions won't affect anyone Have educated opinions if not for yourself, then for your daughter who you will inevitably pass them on to.

(1)Kudos though for getting that checked out and making an informed decision

McDuffie

No, it isn't getting angered. Not when it's coming from me, anyway. Perhaps I should. If that sort of language isn't allowed, perhaps I shouldn't post here anymore.

I already said, I don't get angry at people online. It's a stupid waste of time. If you think that my use of the "f" word is indicative of my emotional state, it's hardly my problem.

Look at what led to my saying "fuck you, you little dipshit". I didn't appreciate someone covering his ass by pretending that I don't have a 5th grade education, and I responded like a normal person would respond when his intelligence or education was thus impugned.

Though, admittedly, I speak a little saltier than most people.

Look, I'm in Africa right now. It's 4 AM here. Do you really want to keep this up? No? Good.

Intense1

So what you're saying is that posting "fuck you, you little dipshit", and telling someone they wrote "fucked up posts" and the best one "you're dismissed", isn't getting angered? Perhaps you should go back and read the guidelines of posting on TFP, McDuffie.

Dang, if you post like this when you're not ANGERED, then perhaps you send special internet postal bombs when you are.....

Look at the rest of the posts, McDuffie - see how we're trying to have an intelligent discourse and get over yourself, please.



SINCE WE'VE CROSS POSTED, MCDUFFIE, HERE'S MY NEXT POST:

Here are the valid TPF guidelines, for your info.

"All of these rules are backed by our membership and enforced by our moderation staff. If you have any questions, please send me a PM.


I. FORUM RULES


A. No personal, racial or religious insults (flaming) - They have no place here on the TFP. This includes bigoted jokes. When in doubt, err on the side of good taste.

D. No baiting (trolling) - Posting comments with the intention to draw the ire of your fellow board members is just as bad as insulting them directly.



II. FORUM GUIDELINES


A. Healthy debate is encouraged. The TFP prides itself on being a wonderful place to hold a civilized conversation. Please do your part to keep it up to code.

B. Disagreement can take place without rudeness or disrespect. For your own sake, if you wish to continue enjoying the TFP, learn how to disagree respectfully.

C. If you do not like a post for its content or its author, it's best to hit the back button on your browser rather than giving your heated two cents.

D. Since you are required to both BE and ACT at least 18 years of age, any allusions to immaturity will draw the attention of our moderators.

E. We encourage everyone to come in with open ears and eyes. The main themes of the TFP revolve around sexuality, philosophy and foreward thinking. We'd like to help you feel secure about yourself in each of those categories.

F. Be honest with everyone. This is the internet and anonymity rules here, so that's even more of a reason to be open and truthful in your posts. There is no better way to take advantage of the many users who are reading the boards, willing to provide help and support.



You know, McDuffie, there havn't been many things I've agreed with Willravel here on TFP, particularly on the politics thread. Sometimes I've thought he was absolutely nuts! (hee hee, willravel's nuts.... But I've always respected his opinion, and even when I thought he was at his most nuttiness, I never even contemplated responding to his post with a "fuck you, you little dipshit". Sorry, but in the civilized discourse I've seen on TFP - even at the most extreme of disagreement - this is just juvenile, and is completely uncalled for.

Are you sure TFP is for you?

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Zeraph

Guys ever heard of private messaging? Youre all taking it way too seriously. Let it go and take a deep breath.

I hope everyone stays, including McDuffie.

You guys are throwing around tfp rule quotes but youre all guilty of threadjacking (even instense). Youve all made different mistakes. So live and let live.

Willravel

My odds could not have been made better with a different wife when it comes to my heart condition. My opinion is based on two things: homozygosity, and the ick factor. I'm the first to admit that the ick factor isn't really based on anything but what I can only interpret is puritanical BS, but it's my decision to make personally. The differene between me and, say, the typical homophobe is that I wouldn't vote to make cousin/cousin relations illegal or try to keep them from living a happy life. I figure that as long as I'm comfortable with my beliefs and they don't hurt anyone, it's just a personal quirk.
I don't like chocolate cake. I won't stop anyone else from having chocolate cake, but I won't have it myself. I don't think I'm being willy nilly with my opinions, it's just a matter of preference.
Surely. And everything turned out just fine.

Intense1

Sorry for the threadjack - my bad.


On another (or actually, the true) note: I once was in a training school with an Indian friend whose brother was marrying their first cousin. She said that it was ok for them to marry, because her brother was not their cousin's "cousin-brother", meaning, he wasn't the son of one of her father's siblings. She was the daughter of my friend's mother's sister (I think). It appears that it would have been taboo if the groom were the son of one man and the bride the daughter of that man's brother/sister....

Not sure - if anyone is of Indian descent and can explain it to us, we'd be grateful. I tried to google it, but got no where.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

McDuffie

Here's the problem though. The reason why I refuse to relent to people like this online is because they don't act like this in the real world. If this was a bar and this happened, I most certainly would have politely, as I did here, corrected him. My correction was polite. It would have been a bit more polite if it was in a bar, or a night club or at a party at someone's house, but reread my correction of his error, and you will see that it was polite. I didn't bully him, nor did I suggest he wasn't educated. I merely corrected an error. If I made an error like that, I would expect someone to correct me as well. Hell, my wife has practically made a career of correcting minor conversational errors like that made by me.

And then observe his next response. The first thing he did was to impugn my education, in a somewhat elliptical way.

In subsequent posts he continued on this same theme, becoming more and more clear in his implication that I am not educated and his insistence that I failed to recognize a simile with each post. Finally he just bluntly stated that I didn't know what a simile was until he did me the favor of explaining it.

Now, do you think that he would have behaved this way if we were at a party together at someone's house? No, of course not! Why? Is it because I am some immensely built, terrifying looking brute of a man? Not really, though I am not a small guy, but the reason is that he isn't that much of an asshole in real life. He's only an asshole here, where he doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his behavior.

It didn't have to go this way. He could have said "You are right" or if he meant that as a simile (which I don't believe for 2 seconds) he could have said "No, sorry, I should have been clearer, I meant that as a simile. I was writing figuratively." But no. almost the first thing from his keyboard was a fairly well composed version of "UR DUM LOLZ".

If anyone here wants to blame me, that's fine. I get blamed for shit I'm not responsible for all the time, so why not get blamed for this. It's just a forum. If anyone here is really taking any of this THAT seriously, they should probably log off.

Has he ever presumed to educate you on a subject that you have known about longer than he has been alive?

No, of course not. Especially after this. Why would I want to hang out with assholes and asshole enablers?

Ch'i

I'm in Anadyr, and its 3:40 a.m. here (not to mention a bit cold), and yet my discourse remains rule abiding.
willravel never insinuated that you were unintelligent or uneducated. I am unsure as to why you were so quick to draw the conclusion that he was. It was a debate over a simile, nothing personal.
Yes, because willravel always picks fights...
... Oh wait, nevermind.

There's no reason to make such a fuss over a misunderstanding. You cleary have some sort of complex over your ability to interpret similes, which is fine; just conduct your debate in a civil manner. You've breached the rules of TFP several times, and, though that may be your style of posting, is not acceptable here. You are welcome to post in any way you'd like elsewhere.

McDuffie

i'm this close to getting booted

Ch'i

I read the two posts a third time. I still don't see it. All I see is him giving an explanation on what he meant, and you condescending in the following post.

ShaniFaye

Its really and truly sad that those of us that were honestly "debating" this subject are being subjected to this drivel, this is just ridiculous

feel free to tell me to fuck off too if it makes anyone feel better

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

McDuffie

As I said, it was in an elliptical way. And it was. He could have said "simile". I know what a mother fucking simile is.

At my age, and with my background, I am confident that I have known what a simile is much longer than most of the participants on this thread.

But, no he presumes to educate me on what a simile is.

Fine. I still think it's an ad hoc excuse and I say so. I address his subtle condescension with less subtle condescension. He returns fire with a suggestion that I am, in fact, uneducated and off we go.

I can't believe that I have to explain what you could have read for yourself.

And this is getting terribly, terribly boring.

Intense1

Zeraph, isn't the "ick factor" different for everyone? Ick is a subjective factor.... my belief is.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Willravel

Nope, I'm an asshole everywhere. It's incredible. Everyone hates me. I get in fights with people in line at Safeway about similes and perpositions all the time. I can't even go to Target anymore because I keep getting in grammatical arguments with the guy that pushes the carts.

Or

I said something, not even as a response to you, and you tried to correct it. You were wrong (as you're not Jesus Christ and are not infalable), and then you refused to admit your mistake. It's incredible to me that you are continuing this on and on and on. Let it go.
Oh boy! An agist. I'm 23, so how could I possibly know as much as someone who's older than 23? Your hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

Ch'i

Why take it so personally? After his explanation you could have simply said something like "I know what a simile is." You've said you don't get angry online, so why take his post as such an insult when it was hypothetically meant to be taken at face value. There were no hidden daggers, yet you play it off as if you were stabbed.
We have absolutely no idea what your age or background is. We know nothing about you.
We don't know who you are. willravel posted an explanation of a simile as a point of clarification, not as a tool of condescention. You're over-analyzing his post's meaning, which is a trait of intelligible people. Ironically enough, your over-analysis lead to you thinking he was calling you an idiot. Though I'm still not sure why you are pursuing this with such vigor.

Also, age means nothing. Background means nothing. We don't know you. All we know about you is what we see you post.