kramus

My post is long-winded. The basic question is, do any of you see orgasm in intercourse as a pleasure but not always the ultimate goal? Or am I an aberration looking for some sort of justification.

I have had a new and special lady in my life for a few months now. Before her I was separated for a year, living in a sexual desert. Before that I was married for 25 years.

With the ex, as time went on, I found that from time to time during intercourse I didn't cum. It was no biggie for me. I even would masturbate and stop before I cum, not as a plan but just because it feels good but the release isn't what I am after. I enjoy sex, but unless I am actually feeling discomfort i.e. blueballs the orgasm itself is great but not mandatory. I have read different times and in different contexts how a man who refrains from orgasm is retaining some vital energies which can have positive effects (I am sure tantric sexperts could quote chapter and verse here). My problem is that my lady wants me to cum every time, and I don't/won't/can't. I cum a couple of times one day, and go without cumming through multiple bouts of intercourse the next time. My lady gets vicarious pleasure from my release, and finds the sensations and signals when I do cum to be a tremendous plus. Also, she feels like a failure if I don't cum.
When I wanted to cum but lost the edge, or the erection, or got tired or whatever I originally thought it was different things like worrying about birth control, or her monthlies, or the youngsters nearby that kept some of the orgasms from happening. My lady reminded me that I am an old man (I turn 50 next year while she is just turned 40) which makes lots of sense and is something I am ok with. Age happens. My lady has this need to know (she's a scientist, after all ). So she had a chat about it with her brothers, and raised it with her therapist. They feel I am rather odd. Bizarre. Not something to be understood. The therapist mentioned "projective identification" as a possible cause.

"Projective Identification is where the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by falsely attributing to another his or her own unacceptable feelings, impulses, or thoughts. Unlike simple projection, the individual does not fully disavow what is projected. Instead, the individual remains aware of his or her own affects or impulses but mis-attributes them as justifiable reactions to the other person. Not infrequently, the individual induces the very feelings in others that were first mistakenly believed to be there, making it difficult to clarify who did what to whom first."

The therapist wondered if part of me feels, in comparison to my lady, that I haven't achieved enough with my life, ie. been a failure. I project that into her by not achieving orgasm, and she experience a sense of failure. Projective identification. Just so you all know I am a blue collar factory worker in a dead end job with a failed marriage and not much contact with my 2 oldest children (not relationship problems, but not much contact). My lady is very, very accomplished. She also is a very attractive, adventurous and giving lover who is hot, lubricious and open-minded. Damn but she is fine

She feels I could seek input from other men about my non-orgasm/sexual disfunction/quirk - bring it up in discussions using positive spin. Brag about my stamina and selfless generosity as a lover. Describe how my new woman marvels at this ability and wonders if I am an Adonis or whether all older men are like this. After all, I am talking about incredible stamina. But that is not entirely true. Sometimes I just am not going to come, and I run out of gas, or give up, or try again later. Or enjoy the contact and the cuddle and feel great about the whole thing. After all, I will get laid again, I will cum sooner or later.

I repeat, my post is long-winded. The basic question is, do any of you see orgasm in intercourse as a pleasure but not always the ultimate goal? Or am I an aberration looking for some sort of justification.

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Willravel

My goal is to make my wife feel good. I love her and respect her and want her more than anything in the world, and making her feel good is my joy. Any other goal is tertiary to that. If I ejaculate, that's cool, if not, whatever. The real orgasm is seeing that look on my wifes face of bliss. How did I get so lucky?

Frankly, it seems like the projective identification thing is reaching. What is happening to you is normal. While I don't have my PhD yet, I read a lot and have had roughly 80 sexual partners in my life (which I've been told is a lot for a 22 year old). Now is a time to experiment. Think about different things during sex. Try different positions. Toys, food, etc. Try new things.

Best of luck, and congrats on landing a very caring lady.

Zeraph

First, I agree with you and think there is nothing wrong with you. I think you have found a more realistic perspective lense to look out from, and I applaud you.

Second, we are all aberrations looking for some sort of justification in some way, that's life.

Val_1

I've actually found myself going that way, where my own orgasm isn't the ultimate goal in sex. Sometimes I don't. But, I enjoy and get more out of sex now than I ever have. There's something to be said for sitting back and enjoying the ride!

__________________

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

-Frank Sinatra

Rodney

As somebody else who's 50, this all seems entirely normal. To me, it's like this: during intercourse at age 25, when I felt pleasure at a certain level, I would come. At age 50, I can feel that exact level of pleasure -- and not come. All the sensors work they way they always did, but the trigger isn't as sensitive as it used to be. And this is not a problem to me -- because it means that the good times can go on for so long. All orgasm means to me now is that the game is over.

And aside from that, sometimes you just run out of gas -- you're tired. It does happen. It happens to me, and it never used to. Most women are never "always ready," but there's a time in a man's life when he _is_ always ready. And then, when he gets older, he's only ready to go all the way some of the time -- like a woman.

But sometimes my wife does, like your friend, feel like a failure if I don't come. There are two things you can do about that. First, you can simply reassure her, endlessly and repeatedly, that 1) she's beautiful and sexy and sets you on fire, and 2) you're having a good time and it all feels great. You can also explain that as a guy gets older he's no longer 100 percent "on" to come every time. In the same way as women.

The other thing you can do is masturbate a couple of times during the day without coming (sounds like you do anyway), with the last time not that long before you see her. As you know, it's fun; and for me, it also sort of pre-heats the blood. When it's time for the real thing, I'm 99.5% sure to come.

I did have a situation in my early life when I didn't come at all after sex, and it was psychological. Basically, I was finding my way into bed by going along with things I wasn't happy with -- just wasn't asserting myself enough in relationships -- and so I wasn't comfortable about being there, and didn't feel in control. So I didn't come. If you feel out of control in your situation, that _could_ be a contributing problem. But I really don't think so. Sounds like you're right where you want to be, doing all the things that you want to do.

And frankly, that therapist you saw doesn't sound like she knows what she's talking about. You need a new therapist -- a guy, your age or older. He'll know what you're talking about ;-).

Knight Dragon

I think we've allowed ourselves to be pushed into a corner with high expectations. Yes, I can enjoy sex without cumming. Can't explain it, but it's a pleasurable sensation that overcomes me even though I don't ejaculate. It's sort of a zen type of thing. I feel it, I sense it but I don't have to actually ejaculate. Unfortunately, women tend to measure their performance by whether or not we cum.

There's another side to this: while I don't mind being on the brink of cumming but never actually ejaculating---in other words, riding the "tide" as long as possible, the same can't actually be said for women---in general. Once she reaches that point, you've got to follow through and "bring her home" or else face the total frustration that inevitably follows. And this may be why women apply that same expectation to us, leading them to believe that we didn't receive any pleasure.

The key between you and your lady is open and honest communication. And by that, I don't mean the technical aspects of lovemaking. I mean the emotional pleasure, physical sensations and intimate feelings you experience when you are together. The most erotic organ in the body is the brain. Focus on that and everything else pretty much falls into place.

I'm going to be 48 in a couple weeks. The insights I'm sharing with you come as the result of going through my own periods of doubts. I don't think it's really a matter of age that affects sex. I think it's a matter of age giving us a different perspective on sex. I think some of us understand that and can take it to the next level while others of us are forever trapped in the juvenile fantasies of physical pleasure as opposed to true sensual pleasure.

Enjoy the ride.

Sage

First of all... Isn't "projection" a rather outdated concept in the Psychology realm? I think her thearapist needs to shut the fuck up unless she's talking to YOU. Judging someone based on what someone else says about them, in a professional thearapy setting, is really unprofessional IMHO.

Secondly, Martel feels the same way you do, and he's 23. Orgasm isn't his ultimate goal, being with me is. If he's with me, he's happy, it doesn't matter what we do in bed as long as it feels good!

And yeah, communicate with your woman. Talk with your woman, don't let her go spilling everything to her thearapist and then not communicate with YOU, her boyfriend! Just talk about it- think of it as part of getting to know each other!

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Rodney

Looking back, I see it wasn't your therapist, but your lady friend's. This women is out of line on two counts:

1) She's diagnosing somebody she hasn't met, and is putting ill-informed opinions into your girlfriend's head.

2) She doesn't know anything about male sexuality in middle age, and therefore is acting like there's nothing _to_ know. She's defining it as a strictly psychological issue.

Like other said, move La Shrinka out of the picture and start giving your GF more information, plus getting more info about how she feels about this. Showing her these posts wouldn't be a bad start.

Sage

^^^

Triple amen to what you just said Rodney. I talked to Martel about this, he said that what your woman's shrink said to her borderlines on malpractice, because what she said could potentially have a negative effect on your relationship.

Communicate with your woman!

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savvypup

I really enjoy it when my man cums, although not too soon hopefully. Me personally, I love it just before I cum, so if the feeling I get is what you enjoy, I totally understand. I don't think I have any issues.

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ciao bella!

mirevolver

I'm with you. I believe that the goal of sex is not the orgasm, but rather enjoying the person you are with. If I want an orgasm, I have my right hand. But when I want to share an intimate experience with someone whom I love, my right hand isn't enough.

Sex is about an enjoying an intimate experience with a person you love and while an orgasm is a great addition to that experience, it is not the end goal. The first time I had sex, I didn't come. Instead after about forty minutes, I started going soft inside her, but we both still had an amazing time. And in several other sexual experiences with her, it was always about enjoying eachother on a level that only we could reach together.

And I agree with Sage, communicate with her. Communication must be there before the intimate enjoyment can happen.

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kramus

There is a lot of response here - thankyou.

This therapist person, I should have mentioned, is a middle aged male. The general tone of posted response is that he could offer less harsh possibilities or interpretations regarding what goes on between my lady and I. I think he offered a response at all because he was addressing her feelings of disappointment/failure when I don't cum. I know medical people often follow a formula of response. They want to clear the most fatal possibilities first, then work down through from most harmful to least in dealing with a patients concern. That is what this man has done, I believe. It just sounds pretty harsh laying out there, the projective identification. I am not entirely buying it myself, but it is worth considering because it offers a clear-eyed view from an outsider, something that I as the guy in the saddle don't have.

The communication between my lady friend and I is not an issue. She is a trained communicator, and I learned the value of communication during the 25 not completely unsuccessful years I was married. I am still on pretty good terms with the ex, if that means anything. I do know I have a lot to learn in interacting with my lady, as well as about myself as a person in a position of flux. I have been sexually active for 30 years. And I am a person who is slow to recognize or cope with change. My life itself has been thoroughly changed and I am seriously considering further major uprootings involving my job, my home and my elderly parents that I am currently living with.

I guess I would feel better if I had more control over the cumming issue. If there were fewer times that it didn't happen because of some physical reason or my thoughts or whatever. I can feel badly when it happens a few times in a row. The realization that other TFPers occassionally experience the same thing is helpful. Thanks people

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ratbastid

Then what needs to happen here is, you need to support her in getting over her feelings of failure. Those are her feelings, right? You're perfectly happy when that happens. So how is it that you're the one operating from a Psychological Condition?

She's dealing (or... not dealing) with her own insecurity here. Highly driven and successful people are almost always driven by insecurity and fears of failure. That's why they NEED to achieve so badly; to prove to themselves that they're not a failure. To be "unable" to bring her man to orgasm is just evidence for her of something she "knows" about herself.

THAT'S the conversation for you to be having with her.

Sultana

Exactomundo! You're fine, she's not, and that projection thing does sound silly. I think she's over-analyzing and over-involving other people. It's sweet that you don't seem to mind, but don't let her insecurities make this *your* prob.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

ratbastid

Well.... That's not quite what I meant. If you're serious about her, then this IS your problem. I just don't think that the source of it is in your particular head.

Miss Ina

As a highly insecure woman, I really liked reading this thread, because I definitely feel like I've done something wrong if my partner doesn't reach orgasm. They would assure me it was nothing, but I can't help but think things like, "Nothing? More like you're too polite to tell me what I could be doing to better please you." It's good for me to hear from men saying that it really is nothing I need to worry about, and that it's more about my insecurity in my sexuality (and in myself as a whole).

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The word "time" split its husk; poured its riches over him; and from his lips fell like shells, like shavings from a plane, without his making them, hard, white, imperishable words, and flew to attach themselves to their places in an ode to Time; an immortal ode to Time.
—Virginia Woolf, Mrs Dalloway

little_tippler

I think it's unfair of your girlfriend to be putting this on you. Like ratbastid said, she's the one with an issue about your not cumming right?

This struck me as a bit disrespectful: "So she had a chat about it with her brothers, and raised it with her therapist. They feel I am rather odd." I hope you told her she could chat about it to her brothers beforehand...

Also, them saying you're odd is pretty unpleasant and rude. I don't think it's odd at all. I don't think that has to be the ultimate goal in sex, though it's nice if you can get it - it's gratifying for you and your partner of course.

I also agree with ratbastid that though she may be the one with an issue, if you're with her and care about her feelings on any given issue that relates to both of you, then it's also your problem to deal with, even if it means helping her deal with it and not the other way around.

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Acetylene

Aw come on, that's not nice. You are FINE. Sex is about more than just orgasms! I have to say it's funny to hear a woman complaining that her man really enjoys cuddling and isn't desperate to cum all the time. It's not right for her to make you feel strange--love as all about acceptance and affirmation. I would tell her she is making you feel like you are "broken" when what you want is acceptance and love. I would also tell the therapist to shut her over-educated piehole and try being a human being for once.

Only thing you might have done wrong (and I am trying to read between the lines here, so I don't know if this is actually the case or not) is, you said your wife feels like a failure if you don't cum. Why? Who is on top/the active partner? If she is the more active partner she might be more likely to blame herself for your lack of cum. To reassure her, you might try being on top yourself on days when you don't feel like cumming, and make it clear that tonight is all about the contact and intimacy.

That aside, I want to repeat what cannot be said too many times--you are JUST FINE the way you are!

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There's no justice. There's just us.

doncalypso

I wish I could keep myself from ejaculating... Sex is so much better for a guy when he can last long enough for the woman to climax before he has his own orgasm. And I think would be even better if I could reach orgasm without ejaculating.

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