florida0214

Okay this may spur some thinking and great responses.
I first wan tto apologize if the topic has been discussed and played out. I looked and couldn't find it so if this gets deleted I understand.

With so many people in here being from canada it will be nice to get a nice perspective on the whole immigration situation that the U.S. feels is such a big problem. As far as I know Canada doe snot have the same problem unless that is there was a draft to be imposed. Anyway back to the topic.
I will start off by telling everybody what it is I think.
America has a major immigration problem. granted there are Illegal aliens who will do things that i myself would not like to do and I am sure many people feel the same way. Not only that, but they will do it for what we, as Americans, would consider a sub-standard rate. there is, however, a down side to this.
1. There is a reason why they call it Illegal Alien. You are not allowed to live here. Please go home. In 2000 it was estimated, only because there is no really good way to count them, that there were currently 7 Million illegal aliens residing in the United States and this number was expected to rise by about 75,000 per year. As of 2004 there were currently 946,142 legal residents of the United States. Of the 7 Million illegal aliens 69% were from Mexico. Other top contributers were El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, and China in no particular order. Every Year between 416,000 and 675,000 are granted INS form I-551 or a green card. The penalties for getting caught in America without authorization to be here are minor at best. We have an entire law enforcement division dedicated to catching people who insist on entering our country illegaly. costing Americans Billions of dollars we simply do not have, thus adding to the national deficit, which is little more than a big number. (whole other thread).
2. Let's face it not even hispanics wants other hispanics here Illegaly. included and article to add to this statement and i will leave it at that.hispanic feelings
Oay maybe I won't I hope everybody knows about the 80/20 effect i think I have explained it in another thread but oh well here goes. The 80% of the Illegal aliens are ruining it for the 20% of the people who want more than to basicly steal from the country. they make it hard for people to get here legally to live here legally and hopefully some day become a citizen of this great country.
3. I for got what number I was on. Okay then there are those who have children in our country and both the mother and the father are illegal aliens. Guess who paid for that hospital visit. thats right You did. Average Joe American citizen. but it doesnt stop there. These kids then grow up and get to go to public school that their parents probably are not contributing for. Private school parents twice for their kids education once in taxes and again in tuition. Illegal Alien parents don't pay at all. how fair is that.
4. The point of all this is that somethig needs to be done about the amount of illegal immigrant enter the United States everyday, because in the end we all end up paying for it. Plus if you want to live here so bad then just learn the freaking language. and no Corona is not english. I have no idea what could be done but it should be addressed.maybe snipers every few miles to shoot at people who make the run for the USA, not kill them or even shoot them just in the general direction of where their going. but anyway this is long enough lets hear what all of you have to say.

Seaver

I disagreed but understood your point until here. The people that cross are not very different from you or me. They want to improve their lives, I cant fault them for that. Now you suggest snipers firing at them? You took the wrong fork in the road there.

As to your point about learning the language... they ARE trying. I live in Texas and have seen litterally 100:1 student:teacher ratio of people TRYING to learn English. How about learning Spanish? When my great-grand parents came to America they could only speak German, my great-grandma died at age 97 without me being able to even have a conversation to her. You have any idea how we'd be changed if they were fired upon after getting off the boat?

Are they taking jobs away from you? No, you admitted to it. They are filling a vital role of low wage workers that have become scarce as the College Educated population has exploded. Sorry but High School kids cant take all of those jobs.

The problem with this, is that those 20% have connections inside the Mexican Government to speed things up. So those 20% are the more wealthy, so much for "Give Me Your Poor... " huh?

I do agree we need stability, but I fear the Coyotes and other groups more than the guy coming to America to feed his family (Coyotes are those who bring hundreds of Mexicans in the back of tractor trucks, and dump them in the desert locked if they feel police is on them... leading to deaths of thousands if not millions to date). You ever hear the song by Union Underground called South Texas Death Ride? Yeah thats about the Coyotes. People above San Antonio dont seem to know about them or understand how dangerous they are. I live in Austin currently and no one has a clue about it.

It's not colonialization, they are happy with taking their spot at the BOTTOM of the totem pole, if they were colonizing they'd be taking over the resources/government/etc while right now they're the poorest and least represented group in the entire US.

pig

First florida, It's been discussed a couple of times before: If you want to see where people might stand, you can check the following:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=immigration

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=immigration

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=immigration

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=immigration

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=immigration

All of that aside, I agree that it's a problem - but unfortunately we (Americans) don't seem to want to simultaneously recognize that a sector of our economny is largely dependent on illegal alien labor, and that it poses a national security issue if people can come in without ID. I'm not so concerned about an assault on our culture or our language. However, as long as this labor keeps the profit margins where it is now and we don't have a major situation that is related to having someone come into the country over the Mexican border, no one is going to make any de facto changes to our immigration policy. At least, that's my opinion.

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florida0214

well just to clear a few things up i was kidding about the sniper thing. That would be very exacggerated and unnecessary. At least document them in some way. Something. Anyway I want proof that everybody in the US legally has diplomatic connections and is rich.
My grandfather has neither but made his way into America legally about 50 years ago. Both him and my grandmother speak very good english becuase they realize this is not Mexico and we speak english in America. I do understand Coyotes. I know personally somebody who did just that until an unfortuante accident. They did not however charged the individuals. it was part of his job to drive across the border and drive back to south cali so he just picked up a few passengers on the way. but Thank youfor answering the question I guess I can pretty much write off this thread and read up on the past ones. Thanks Pigglett

pig

Oh, I wouldn't write it off yet - people love to argue around here. I just thought I might save you some time on what some likely replies will be. Or you might want to focus on the particular aspect brought in your thread title - I can't recall if the focus has been brought on the actual take-over of American culture by immigration - although I'm sure it's been mentioned in previous threads. If American is a "melting pot" in its conception, can it's culture be "taken over," or is it inherently in a state of change?

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Mr Honest

Well if only your State hadn't helped destroy the economy of so many Central American countries they would he happier in their own place of birth!
They would still have been immigration - there has been since records began but it would be less if there were better conditions in the countries some of them come from

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arch13

As a Miamian, I'm going to start out with your comment about speaking English.
Spanish is on track to be the most spoken language on the planet by the end of the 21st century. If you are in Florida especially, you should know this.

If you do not speak spanish, you should be learning it. English is not going to remain the dominant language forever.
I fail to see a problem with this. Populations change and customs change. Nothing is stagnant. No one ever promised that we would always speak english as primary communication. Americans tend to be far more ignorant as to the reality that we are not the majority of the world. Citizens of many other countries are multi-lingual. We should be to if we want to compete in modern business. There will come a time when only speaking english will be a point against you while job seeking.

Look to the EU or most developing countries to understand that other populations see the importance of being multi-lingual in buisness and communication.

Additionally, you have a spot of ignorance that needs to be corrected.
HIspanics are not coming into the US. Now Cubans, Hondurans, etc are coming into the US.
These are seperate countries you are speaking about. Lumping them into one pile based on what they speak is to not being aware of this.
Someone from Cuba and Someone from Honduras come to this country for very different reasons, much as an Irishman and a Britishmen came here for different reasons having to do with the states of their native land.

Every current population identity is always afraid they are going to be wiped out by an incoming populations identity. Your reactions are no different. The British feared the Irish who feared the Italians and so on.
You need to understand that you must adapt. There is no status qou.

I'm interested to see your reactions to what I have said, and hope that you will elaborate in more detail how you came to your mindset.

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smooth

kudos, Seaver, I found your response well-written.

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alansmithee

About spanish language vs. english language? It doesn't matter who speaks it the most natively, it matters the economic power of the countries where that language is spoken. Even assuming spanish is the most spoken language, the countries that primarily use it aren't economically dominant, so english is safe (as an aside, some of the business programs at my school have communications requirements that have portions that can be satisfied with a language-not spanish. Japanese and german are the languages. Why? Because (aside from english) those languages are the most relevant in the business world and in economics).

As for the wave of (illegal) immigration coming from latin nations, i'd rate it in the top 3 of problems that I see the country having currently. It is a large drain on society, and also horribly effects the job markets of those who can least afford it (the lower classes). By having a large pool of cheap labor, it undercuts minimum wage/labor laws and helps bring down wages in general for those who lack college education. I remember some research I did on the subject, and the gov't outlay on average for latin american immigrants is around $7,000 iirc (this means that on average, the gov't loses $7,000 per latin american immigrant in the form of tanf, medical aid, schooling, etc after taxes). I think they were the lowest in regards to this. It wouldn't be so much of a problem, if not for the fact that many dont' seem to desire to actually become part of America, and just want to reap any financial rewards. And we aren't getting the best, we're getting the dregs. And honestly, the country doesn't need more dregs, we have our own to deal with.

It's obvious that the border needs closed. I'd put up a large electric fence, and withdraw many of the nat'l guard from around the world to patrol it's border (I remember Pat Bucchanon talking about this during one of his presidential bids. The nat'l guard idea is also gaining some traction). Unfortunately, like with most economic issues, Bush's policy on this is totally wrong.

And as for just adapting, and native populations fearing change, etc. This situation is different from other immigration issues because we share a largely open border. I'm sure the problem might have been larger with earlier populations had there not been an ocean separating us, but that's not the case with most of Latin America.

WillyPete

Florida - if you want to blame someone, blame hollywood and the U.S. media beast.

You guys constantly tout yourselves as the only beacon of democracy and freedom and I can't change a channel without the land of the free and the American dream staring me in the face.

If you advertise well, people will come and buy.

Your own propaganda machine has bitten you on the ass if you feel that immigrants are a problem.

abaya

/rant

I'm an American, born and raised here, but my mom is Thai and my dad was Icelandic (both immigrants) and I speak three languages. My boyfriend is from Lebanon and speaks three languages. I am doing my PhD research on international migration.

I'm as American as you get, and I think immigration has FAR more benefits than costs. I think that's part of BEING American, since this place is built on immigration. I've often put forth the idea that we should just open up the whole damn border, see what happens. I have no problem with immigration.

I very much agree with WillyPete, that the US has created a sense of relative deprivation with our insanely high and abusive standards of living (completely unsustainable), and I agree with Mr. Honest and your statement about how we've fucked up the economies of most central American countries (and a ton of other countries as well, but let's not go there). We are the cause of immigration; if there are negative parts to it, we've brought them down on ourselves.

Do not put the blame on those who have no other choice except for to try and improve their lives. They're a hell of a lot more brave than you are.

/end rant

EDIT: And let me add, have you been to your local graduate institution lately to see how many red-blooded Americans are studying math, science, engineering? We're a minority in some of the world's most important and lucrative professions because IMMIGRANTS and foreign students are way the hell smarter and harder-working than we are.

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Cynthetiq

america also doesn't have market cornered when it comes to immigration. many other contries have to deal with this same thing maybe not to the same scale but it is happening.

I myself have been trying to emigrate to another country to live besides america. My cousins here in the Philippines decided that they didn't want to go to America so they are now Australian nationals.

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Seaver

Well it kinda balances out if you take into account that their parents pay Social Security their whole lives while the majority of them never can or do cash out.

Wow, that's something I dont hear often

alansmithee

That figure takes SS into account.

jorgelito

Are we talking legal immigration or illegal immigration here?

pan6467

My prediction and I hope to God I am as wrong about this one as I am all my predictions:

Illegals will keep flowing like there is no tomorrow, until, we have an incident where an illegal came across, and the people will truly awaken to the problem.

If the act is big enough, I would be scared that war with Mexico would be right around the corner also. Especially when their government encourages illegals to cross and tells them how to do it.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

alansmithee

Not sure if you were directing it at me, but my figure was for illegal + legal immigration.

jorgelito

Not really directed at anyone; just trying to get a handle on the discussion so I can frame my own response.