Comparing Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Aladdin Sane · 09-05-2005, 05:01 AM

Let's compare Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina.
One major principle of the United States government is federalism. There are certain powers that belong to state and local governments, and there are certain powers that belong to the National government. Local officials are charged with preparing for local emergencies. The national government comes in to help states at the request of state officials. With this in mind, I submit that state and local officials in Louisiana and New Orleans have completely failed the people of that state and city. Compare the response of Louisianna officials to the response of Mississippi officials, and the contrast couldn't be greater.

The following article is from http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/0...louisiana.html.

"I read Gov. Blanco's (D-LA) statement too with some weird bemusement. What's been lost in all the blather over New Orleans is that it was really Mississippi that took the big hit. The buildings in New Orleans are still standing; the Gulf Coast of Mississippi basically has been scrubbed, like God took out a pencil eraser and just erased it. (Up in the northern hemisphere, since storms spin counterclockwise, the worst part of a hurricane is the "right-front" quadrant - because the wind is going with the momentum of the storm's movement, plus the wind pushes the storm surge along. The center hit basically at the MS/LA state line, so MS was on the bad side.)

I really don't like to find fault at times like this, but one thing that was missing was a quick recognition that in such a situation the potential for civil collapse is nearly 100%. Once the weather settles, you need to immediately declare marshal law and send in the MPs. That's basically what Haley Barbour did in Mississippi - there were a few early problems but very quickly the MPs were patrolling what was left of Biloxi and Gulfport and keeping a lid on things. Back on Tuesday when I put on the news and we all saw Kathleen Blanco bursting into tears, I knew that was the wrong message and would bring trouble. Louisiana and New Orleans basically have those touchy-feely, "I'm okay, you're okay" soft-leftie types in charge. Their education took a few days and has been expensive.

So I hope you're Watching Mississippi. Highly recommended - we may have found our next President out of this (you heard it here first).

Amidst all the hyperventilating that's going on, it's actually a good time for a civics lesson, particularly watching the competence of the people in Mississippi and the gross incompetence of almost all concerned in Louisiana. Who was responsible for what?

- The mayor of NO has been a good hyperventilator, but one thing became obvious quickly. NO is below sea level and it was inevitable that someday The Worst was going to happen. NO didn't even take the worse possible hit (MS did), but it was clear that no one in NO had ever planned for The Worst. Last weekend, the mayor said, "Everyone get out of town." It's obvious that lots of people weren't able to just load up the car and go - folks with no transportation like that, the incapacitated, patients in hospitals, etc. There was no plan to really evacuate the city, and it's the local officials (over decades) who were responsible for that.

- Why wasn't the National Guard called out sooner to maintain order? Responsibility with each state's National Guard contingent in situations like this (where they operate within state boundaries) is the responsibility of each state's governor. To put it bluntly, the responsibility for calling out the NG in LA rested with the governor. If it didn't happen on time, that's HER failing.

Mississippi got hammered much worse than Louisiana but is barely in the news because the leadership has been much more competent. Ms. Blanco is clearly way out of her league in this situation.

This was a good reminder that LA has for decades been our worst managed and most corrupt state. I briefly caught a bit of the News Hour last night, and David Brooks pointed that out; he also pointed out something that's pretty obvious - for the most part, the South has been booming for the past 25 or so years. The major cities went from backwater jokes to leading cities - Atlanta, Raleigh, Dallas, all of Florida, etc. The "hole in the map" in all of this has been Louisiana - it's like the last 25 or 30 years of southern growth have passed it right by. Get away from the gussified tourist areas and NO is a pretty awful city.

He also asked why we were so good at quick response halfway around the world in Banda Aceh while we seemed so unable to handle something right in the country. That's actually pretty obvious to me. Indonesia was a piece of cake because there was no bureaucracy out there - "What have we got over near there?" "The USS Lincoln battlegroup." "Send 'em in and let the Navy people on site to run the show." Inside this country, you have multiple interlocking bureaucracies that just don't know what to do on their own, let alone when they try to interact...

The most effective response to NO probably would have been to just turn the project over to the Navy immediately and tell everyone else to leave them alone. But of course that wouldn't happen because then all those bureaucracies would be forced to admit that they are much worse than useless when the crunch comes..."

Marvelous Marv · 09-05-2005, 11:05 AM

Nice post. I'd add that the television media won't do much in regard to covering this--Katie Couric and her ilk are too busy acting like they predicted this, and had explicit plans in place.

Repeat after me: It's all Bush's fault....

flstf · 09-05-2005, 11:57 AM

I watched a news interview with Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore today. The reporter was telling him how messed up and unprepared the federal leaders were and until he showed up things were out of control. The reporter said that FEMA should have sent the General there earlier.

The General told him that he was wrong and that they were ready to go in as soon as the storm ended but that the early responders were becomming victims themselves and he could not go on any earlier.

I have heard interviews with General Honore several times recently and he seems to have a lot of credibility.

raveneye · 09-06-2005, 06:08 AM

While I think all levels of government were sadly unprepared for impacts of Katrina, the federal government's response seems especially curious.

For example, it took Washington 5 days to complete the paperwork to send New Mexico's National Guard to Louisiana (from Sunday, the day before Katrina hit, to Thursday, three days afterwards). The same is true for paperwork for several other states.

It's understandable that N.O. didn't anticipate the collapse of its own police force, and the magnitude of the looting. But it's not understandable to me why Washington would take 5 days to approve Blanco's requests for more Guard units.

In any case, this is now a bipartisan question, with republicans Chuck Hagel and John Warner joining the chorus of voices calling for a Congressional investigation into the actions of Washington post-Katrina.

Heres a ref:

Quote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/...national_guard

Congress Likely to Probe Guard Response

By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer Sat Sep 3, 6:38 PM ET

WASHINGTON - Another 10,000 National Guard troops are being sent to the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast, raising their number to about 40,000, but questions linger about the speed with which troops were deployed.

Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

California troops just began arriving in Louisiana on Friday, three days after flood waters devastated New Orleans and chaos broke out.

In fact, when New Orleans' levees gave way to deadly flooding on Tuesday, Louisiana's National Guard had received help from troops in only three other states: Ohio, which had nine people in Louisiana then; Oklahoma, 89; and Texas, 625, figures provided by the National Guard show.

Maj. Gen. Thomas Cutler, who leads the Michigan National Guard, said he anticipated a call for police units and started preparing them, but couldn't go until states in the hurricane zone asked them to come.

"We could have had people on the road Tuesday," Cutler said. "We have to wait and respond to their need."

The Michigan National Guard was asked for military police by Mississippi late Tuesday and by Louisiana officials late Wednesday. The state sent 182 MPs to Mississippi on Friday and had 242 headed to Louisiana on Saturday.

Typically, the authority to use the National Guard in a state role lies with the governor, who tells his or her adjutant general to order individual Guard units to begin duty. Turnaround time varies depending on the number of troops involved, their location and their assigned missions.

One factor that may have further complicated post-Katrina deployment arose when Louisiana discovered it needed Guardsmen to do more law enforcement duty because a large portion of the New Orleans police force was not functioning, according to Lt. Gen. Steven H. Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau at the
Pentagon.

Because the agreement that was already in existence for states to contribute Guard troops to Louisiana did not include a provision on their use in law enforcement, Blum said, Gov. Blanco had to get separate written agreements authorizing Guardsmen to do police-type duty.

Still, Blum said, this took only minutes to execute.

With many states' Guard units depleted by deployments to
Iraq, Katrina's aftermath was almost certain from the beginning to require help from faraway states.

Republicans and Democrats alike in Congress are just beginning to ask why one of the National Guard's most trusted roles — disaster relief — was so uneven, delayed and chaotic this time around.

Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record), R-Neb., said the situation has shown major breakdowns in the nation's emergency response capabilities. "There must be some accountability in this process after the crisis is addressed," he said.

Democrat Ben Nelson, Nebraska's other senator, said he now questions National Guard leaders' earlier assertions that they had enough resources to respond to natural disasters even with the Iraq war.

"I'm going to ask that question again," Nelson said. "Do we have enough (troops), and if we do, why were they not deployed sooner?"

President Bush was asked that question Friday as he toured the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast area and said he disagrees with criticism the military is stretched too thin.

"We've got a job to defend this country in the war on terror, and we've got a job to bring aid and comfort to the people of the Gulf Coast, and we'll do both," he said.

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner, R-Va., plans to make oversight of the Defense Department, the National Guard and their assistance his top priority when he returns to Washington next week from an overseas trips, spokesman John Ullyot said Friday.

Bush had the legal authority to order the National Guard to the disaster area himself, as he did after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks . But the troops four years ago were deployed for national security protection, and presidents of both parties traditionally defer to governors to deploy their own National Guardsmen and request help from other states when it comes to natural disasters.

In addition to Guard help, the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service.

The CRAF provision has been activated twice, once for the Persian
Gulf War and again for the Iraq war.

Salomon · 09-06-2005, 07:20 AM

Well said, Aladdin Sane. I couldn't agree more. Blaming the Feds for this is like blaming them for a local bank robbery.

stevo · 09-06-2005, 07:24 AM

I just have one question.

The mayor of NO and the gov of LA stated that the superdome would be able to house up to 30,000 of the city's poorest during the storm. 9,000 came during katrina and 15,000 were there after the storm. The superdome couldn't house 15,000 people for 2 days! Didn't have enough food, water, security. How many days were they expecting to house 30,000 people? 3/4 a way through the storm? The gov and mayor definately dropped the ball on this. their first priority should be to protect their citizens and they did NOTHING.

raveneye · 09-06-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

The gov and mayor definately dropped the ball on this. their first priority should be to protect their citizens and they did NOTHING.

Governor Blanco, on the day before Katrina hit, asked Bush to declare a national disaster, and requested federal assistance to "save lives", stating specifically that Louisiana did not have the manpower to deal with the likely impacts of the hurricane. This was on August 28. The letter that she sent him is on her website in PDF.

It wasn't until Thursday, September 1, that Washington finally completed the paperwork to send in the manpower that Blanco requested five days earlier. What I'd like to know is: why should it have taken 5 days? That doesn't make any sense to me.

While I agree that there were several balls dropped, by practically everybody including Bush, I don't agree that the gov and mayor did nothing.

stevo · 09-06-2005, 11:18 AM

Where'd you get the 5 days from?

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...6&postcount=12

----

But I did hear, for the first time today, that a New Orleans newspaper printed an article 7 weeks before the hurricane hit, letting the residents know that the city and state is not prepared to evacuate the poor and those without cars if a major storm hits and those residents should begin preparing now for an evacuation if one is ever needed.

add: Go figure, I hear about the story - then go to drudge and he has it there. whaddya know?

Quote:

NEW ORLEANS FLASHBACK: OFFICALS WARNED RESIDENTS 'YOU'LL BE ON YOUR OWN'
Mon Sep 05 2005 18:57:15 ET

Before residents had ever heard the words "Hurricane Katrina," the New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE ran a story warning residents: If you stay behind during a big storm, you'll be on your own!

Editors at TIMES-PICAYUNE on Monday called for every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency to be fired. In an open letter to President Bush, the paper said: "Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame."

But the TIMES-PICAYUNE published a story on July 24, 2005 stating: City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give a historically blunt message: "In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own."

Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

"In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.

"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you."

Developing...

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I just have one question.

The mayor of NO and the gov of LA stated that the superdome would be able to house up to 30,000 of the city's poorest during the storm. 9,000 came during katrina and 15,000 were there after the storm. The superdome couldn't house 15,000 people for 2 days! Didn't have enough food, water, security. How many days were they expecting to house 30,000 people? 3/4 a way through the storm? The gov and mayor definately dropped the ball on this. their first priority should be to protect their citizens and they did NOTHING.

I'd have to see the exact quote, but it sounds like you're answering your own question, but you can't see it. The answer is, "the superdome would be able to house up to 30,000 of the city's poorest during the storm." Apparently, they didn't anticipate people still being there five days *after* the storm (whether that was their fault or not) and they didn't anticipate water and electricity being *nonexistent* after the storm, and they didn't ancitipate the security problems after the storm.

stevo · 09-06-2005, 12:06 PM

So who do we have to elect to anticipate these things?

raveneye · 09-06-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Where'd you get the 5 days from?

Scroll up to post #4 in this thread.

raveneye · 09-06-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

So who do we have to elect to anticipate these things?

They did not indeed anticipate that the federal manpower necessary to manage the post-hurricane chaos would not arrive until days late.

Rekna · 09-06-2005, 12:33 PM

I believe they told all people going to the super dome to bring food for X days. It would be safe to assume the people who showed up after the hurricane hit didn't have this.

MoonDog · 09-06-2005, 01:39 PM

Rekna is right, if I remember correctly. Anyone retreating to the Superdome was asked to bring food (and drink?) for...I think it was 3 days.

I remember hearing, on NPR I think, the factoid that the Louisiana state contitution does not even allow for martial law to be declared. If that's true, it was never an option.

aswo · 09-06-2005, 02:51 PM

I think i heard the same thing, martial law has all kinds of wierd laws in order to be enforced

vautrain · 09-06-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

So who do we have to elect to anticipate these things?

There's the rub. You can't really elect people to anticipate these things, you have to hire them. Apparently, plenty of people were hired at the local, state, and federal levels who understood this event would occur. The problem is, very few elected officials actually listened to them, and the ones that did, apparently couldn't actually *do* anything about it.

There will be plenty of opportunities for blame-laying in the post-mortem. Nobody's hands are totally clean in all this, from the federal government all the way down to the people who are still there who refuse to leave.

raveneye · 09-06-2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I believe they told all people going to the super dome to bring food for X days.

Yep. Here in Miami, we're told that we need to take our own food and drinking water to the shelter. That is not supplied by the government unless a federal disaster area is declared, and then military helicopters come in and airdrop supplies. The day after Andrew, military helicopters flew down here and dropped cold coca cola.

stevo · 09-07-2005, 05:43 AM

The ball was rolling in washington before katrina hit the gulf states

Quote:

Emergency Aid Authorized For Hurricane Katrina Emergency Response In Louisiana

Release Date: August 27, 2005
Release Number: HQ-05-169

» More Information on Louisiana Hurricane Katrina
» More Information on Louisiana Hurricane Katrina

» En Español

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary of Homeland Security for Emergency Preparedness and Response, today announced that Federal resources are being allocated to support emergency protective response efforts response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina.

Brown said President Bush authorized the aid under an emergency disaster declaration issued following a review of FEMA's analysis of the state's request for federal assistance. FEMA will mobilize equipment and resources necessary to protect public health and safety by assisting law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters, supporting emergency medical needs, meeting immediate lifesaving and life-sustaining human needs and protecting property, in addition to other emergency protective measures.

The parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn were designated eligible for assistance. In addition, federal funds will be available for public safety debris removal and emergency protective measures at 75 percent of approved costs.

Brown named William Lokey of FEMA to coordinate the federal relief effort. FEMA prepares the nation for all hazards and manages federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates mitigation activities, trains first responders, works with state and local emergency managers, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration. FEMA became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security on March 1, 2003.

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18447

Everything that went on: http://www.fema.gov/news/eventnews.fema?id=4808

There were problems at the local level that prevented FEMA from being as effective as it could have been immediately after the storm. FEMA did no less with katrina than it has done with any other storm.

raveneye · 09-07-2005, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

FEMA did no less with katrina than it has done with any other storm.

As far as I can see, there is nothing in your links to support this assertion.

President Bush himself is on record saying that the federal response to Katrina was "unacceptable" and that he intended to correct the problem.

stevo · 09-07-2005, 06:30 AM

Follow the links, look at other disaters on the site and you will wee no less action taken by FEMA for katrina than with any other hurricane. They are all on there, look around.

What do you want bush to say? "the federal response to katirna was perfect"

FEMA fucked shit up. thats for sure. They were directing truckloads of water to towns that couldn't be reached because they were 15 feet under water, so there are truckloads of water trapped on a road just miles from the people that need it. The coordination was horrible - thats not the president's fault, thats falls on the shoulders of the administration of Louisiana and NewOrleans - they coordinate with FEMA, not the president. Bush actually urged that NewOrleans call for mandatory evacuations on saturday (the storm didn't hit until early am monday). He urged that everyone leave. Mayor Nagin didn't call for an evacuation until 18hrs before katrina hit. Nagin did nothing for his citizens. He could have evacuated the poor, but instead he left these buses to flood.

raveneye · 09-07-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

FEMA fucked shit up. thats for sure.

Good point. I agree 100%.

host · 09-07-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raveneye

As far as I can see, there is nothing in your links to support this assertion.

President Bush himself is on record saying that the federal response to Katrina was "unacceptable" and that he intended to correct the problem.

Ya know.....raveneye.....you have highlighted the curious phenomena that I've posted about before, when I see it happening. Like <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=1872087&postcount=24">here....</a>, also to stevo.......

I point out to people who give Bush not only an automatic unquestioning pass, no matter what the evidence is of shortcomings in his or his administration's performance, policies, or statements, but defend him and them to an extent similar to what you observe here.....they seem "more Bush, than Bush"!!!.

This is the reason that signifigant numbers still believe that there are WMD still hidden in signifigant quantities in Iraq, or spirited away to places like Syria, or that Saddam collaborated with Qaeda/Bin Laden, even after Bush or Scott MCcLellann went on record denying that they expected Iraqi WMD would be found, even outside Iraq, or that a claim could be made that Iraq had ties to Al Qaeda.

This is Bush's base. It empowers and enables him. They wanna believe.....
no matter whether it requires dismissing Plame's 20 years of patriotic service by siding with Rove's machinations and false and misleading white house statements, and by asserting almost with one voice that "she wasn't really an "operative", to parroting any personal "smear" OP directed towards anyone critical of this executive branch, or of candidate Bush, even if the individual attacked has an exemplary record of public service.....or has been highly decorated by the military for past service. Facts be damned.

djtestudo · 09-07-2005, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Ya know.....raveneye.....you have highlighted the curious phenomena that I've posted about before, when I see it happening. Like <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=1872087&postcount=24">here....</a>, also to stevo.......

I point out to people who give Bush not only an automatic unquestioning pass, no matter what the evidence is of shortcomings in his or his administration's performance, policies, or statements, but defend him and them to an extent similar to what you observe here.....they seem "more Bush, than Bush"!!!.

This is the reason that signifigant numbers still believe that there are WMD still hidden in signifigant quantities in Iraq, or spirited away to places like Syria, or that Saddam collaborated with Qaeda/Bin Laden, even after Bush or Scott MCcLellann went on record denying that they expected Iraqi WMD would be found, even outside Iraq, or that a claim could be made that Iraq had ties to Al Qaeda.

This is Bush's base. It empowers and enables him. They wanna believe.....
no matter whether it requires dismissing Plame's 20 years of patriotic service by siding with Rove's machinations and false and misleading white house statements, and by asserting almost with one voice that "she wasn't really an "operative", to parroting any personal "smear" OP directed towards anyone critical of this executive branch, or of candidate Bush, even if the individual attacked has an exemplary record of public service.....or has been highly decorated by the military for past service. Facts be damned.

Yes, facts be damned.

Apparently that is what you think when presented with facts from others, ignoring them like you whine about when others ignore you.

smooth · 09-07-2005, 09:49 AM

LMAO, the only "fact" that everyone reading politics can see is a small handful of TFP members can't seem to go through a single day without personally attacking host.

j8ear · 09-07-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

LMAO, the only "fact" that everyone reading politics can see is a small handful of TFP members can't seem to go through a single day without personally attacking host.

Riiiiiiiggght! Because correctly pointing out the hypocracy of ignoring facts when you complain about facts (which are actually just bloated opinions) being ignored is an attack.

Welcome back, btw, Smooth.

How have you been?

-bear

stevo · 09-07-2005, 11:04 AM

So is it bush's fault the mayor of new orleans decided not to use those buses to evacuate his poor, huddled masses, yearning not to drown??

raveneye · 09-07-2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

So is it bush's fault the mayor of new orleans decided not to use those buses to evacuate [poor taste joke about the dead deleted]

No, but nothing that the mayor failed to do excuses Bush or anybody else up the line for what they failed to do.

I don't hear FEMA or Bush saying that they weren't still obligated to do the best they could for those drowning people, because it's the mayor's fault they were there.

Aladdin Sane · 09-07-2005, 05:18 PM

It becomes clearer by the day that the local and state governments in Louisianna are mainly responsible for the delayed help in the aftermath of Katrina.

The Red Cross is confirming that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center.
(http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html).

Furthermore, as I type this the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisianna are revealing their ongoing confusion by publicly disagreeing over the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. The Mayor has ordered it and the Governor is saying he can't do it without her permission.

Elphaba · 09-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Alladin, I assume you just forgot to post the entirety of the Red Cross link.

Quote:

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The Red Cross has been meeting the needs of thousands of New Orleans residents in some 90 shelters throughout the state of Louisiana and elsewhere since before landfall. All told, the Red Cross is today operating 149 shelters for almost 93,000 residents.

The Red Cross shares the nation’s anguish over the worsening situation inside the city. We will continue to work under the direction of the military, state and local authorities and to focus all our efforts on our lifesaving mission of feeding and sheltering.

The Red Cross does not conduct search and rescue operations. We are an organization of civilian volunteers and cannot get relief aid into any location until the local authorities say it is safe and provide us with security and access.

The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.

As the remaining people are evacuated from New Orleans, the most appropriate role for the Red Cross is to provide a safe place for people to stay and to see that their emergency needs are met. We are fully staffed and equipped to handle these individuals once they are evacuated.

Some of us are not too lazy to follow a link. Homeland Security is keeping out the Red Cross, as well, for very good reasons as their website states.

Sheesh.

Marvelous Marv · 09-07-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

But I did hear, for the first time today, that a New Orleans newspaper printed an article 7 weeks before the hurricane hit, letting the residents know that the city and state is not prepared to evacuate the poor and those without cars if a major storm hits and those residents should begin preparing now for an evacuation if one is ever needed.

Shame on you for not realizing that Bush should have personally gone to NO and taught every resident to read.

host · 09-07-2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

It becomes clearer by the day that the local and state governments in Louisianna are mainly responsible for the delayed help in the aftermath of Katrina..........

Sounds amazingly siimilar to Rove's latest "OP", Alladiin Sane.......
NY TIMES will make the following unavailable in the next few days, so forgive me for posting all of it. Just making the point that you all seem to repeat the same message, at the same co-ordinated time.....every time.....

Quote:

http://http://www.nytimes.com/2005/0...al/05bush.html
September 5, 2005
White House Enacts a Plan to Ease Political Damage
By ADAM NAGOURNEY and ANNE E. KORNBLUT

WASHINGTON, Sept. 4 - Under the command of President Bush's two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan this weekend to contain the political damage from the administration's response to Hurricane Katrina.

It orchestrated visits by cabinet members to the region, leading up to an extraordinary return visit by Mr. Bush planned for Monday, directed administration officials not to respond to attacks from Democrats on the relief efforts, and sought to move the blame for the slow response to Louisiana state officials, according to Republicans familiar with the White House plan.

The effort is being directed by Mr. Bush's chief political adviser, Karl Rove, and his communications director, Dan Bartlett. It began late last week after Congressional Republicans called White House officials to register alarm about what they saw as a feeble response by Mr. Bush to the hurricane, according to Republican Congressional aides.

As a result, Americans watching television coverage of the disaster this weekend began to see, amid the destruction and suffering, some of the most prominent members of the administration - Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Donald H. Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense; and Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state - touring storm-damaged communities.

Mr. Bush is to return to Louisiana and Mississippi on Monday; his first visit, on Friday, left some Republicans cringing, in part because the president had little contact with residents left homeless.

Republicans said the administration's effort to stanch the damage had been helped by the fact that convoys of troops and supplies had begun to arrive by the time the administration officials turned up. All of those developments were covered closely on television.

In many ways, the unfolding public relations campaign reflects the style Mr. Rove has brought to the political campaigns he has run for Mr. Bush. For example, administration officials who went on television on Sunday were instructed to avoid getting drawn into exchanges about the problems of the past week, and to turn the discussion to what the government is doing now.

"We will have time to go back and do an after-action report, but the time right now is to look at what the enormous tasks ahead are," Michael Chertoff, the secretary of Homeland Security, said on "Meet the Press" on NBC.

One Republican with knowledge of the effort said that Mr. Rove had told administration officials not to respond to Democratic attacks on Mr. Bush's handling of the hurricane in the belief that the president was in a weak moment and that the administration should not appear to be seen now as being blatantly political. As with others in the party, this Republican would discuss the deliberations only on condition of anonymity because of keen White House sensitivity about how the administration and its strategy would be perceived.

In a reflection of what has long been a hallmark of Mr. Rove's tough political style, the administration is also working to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana who, as it happens, are Democrats.

"The way that emergency operations act under the law is the responsibility and the power, the authority, to order an evacuation rests with state and local officials," Mr. Chertoff said in his television interview. "The federal government comes in and supports those officials."

That line of argument was echoed throughout the day, in harsher language, by Republicans reflecting the White House line.

In interviews, these Republicans said that the normally nimble White House political operation had fallen short in part because the president and his aides were scattered outside Washington on vacation, leaving no one obviously in charge at a time of great disruption. Mr. Rove and Mr. Bush were in Texas, while Vice President Dick Cheney was at his Wyoming ranch.

Mr. Bush's communications director, Nicolle Devenish, was married this weekend in Greece, and a number of Mr. Bush's political advisers - including Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman - attended the wedding.

Ms. Rice did not return to Washington until Thursday, after she was spotted at a Broadway show and shopping for shoes, an image that Republicans said buttressed the notion of a White House unconcerned with tragedy.

These officials said that Mr. Bush and his political aides rapidly changed course in what they acknowledged was a belated realization of the situation's political ramifications. As is common when this White House confronts a serious problem, management was quickly taken over by Mr. Rove and a group of associates including Mr. Bartlett. Neither man responded to requests for comment.

White House advisers said that Mr. Bush expressed alarm after his return to Washington from the Gulf Coast.

One senior White House official said that Mr. Bush appeared at a senior staff meeting in the Situation Room on Friday and called the results on the ground "unacceptable." At the encouragement of Mr. Bartlett, officials said, he repeated the comment later in the Rose Garden, the start of this campaign.

And many still don't have the perspective that Reagan was an "B" movie actor, delivering his lines....not a brilliant leader and statesman, as he was so carefully and thoroughly portrayed.

You can follow exposure of Rove's newest "OP".....smear Louisiana's political leaders, to prop up Bush's shakey rep......here:

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080002
Media provide forums for administration officials and conservatives to spread falsehoods about hurricane relief efforts

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080001
O'Reilly falsely accused La. governor of not requesting more National Guard troops

Fox News host Bill O'Reilly falsely claimed that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco "failed to ask for more [National Guard] troops from the feds, knowing she only had about 6,000 to control a city of 1.3 million" and that "[i]t was not until Wednesday, August 31st, three days after the storm hit, that Blanco admitted she didn't have enough security in the city." But according to Department of Defense officials, Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour had requested additional Guard personnel before the storm hit.

As Gen. Russel Honoré, commander of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Joint Task Force Katrina, stated in a September 1 briefing, the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi had requested additional assistance from the federal government "as the hurricane was approaching," beginning with a request on August 26 that DoD command centers be set up in their states. And by August 28, Mississippi and Louisiana were collaborating with the National Guard Bureau to have additional security forces sent in..........

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509070004
News outlets repeated faulty administration claim that deployment of troops to Iraq did not affect Katrina relief effort

......But all of these news outlets entirely ignored recent comments from military officials that call into question the Defense Department's broad denials. A September 6 Wall Street Journal article (subscription required) highlighted the federal government's "delayed understanding of the scope of the damage last week and its initial slowness in mounting rescues and bringing food and water to stricken citizens." The article listed six problems that had hampered federal relief efforts, including a "military stretched by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which left commanders near New Orleans reluctant to commit some active-duty units at nearby Fort Polk, La., because they were in the midst of preparing for an Afghan deployment this winter."

The Journal went on to report that a "senior Army official" had conceded that Fort Polk, a five-hour drive from New Orleans, had declined to commit thousands of active-duty soldiers to the beleaguered region because their unit was "preparing for Afghanistan deployment in January." Instead, Fort Polk deployed a mere "few dozen soldiers" on September 4 -- five days after the hurricane struck the Gulf Coast:

The U.S. Army has a large facility, Fort Polk, in Leesville, La., about 270 miles northwest of New Orleans. Officials at Fort Polk, which has nearly 8,000 active-duty soldiers, said their contribution so far has consisted of a few dozen soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division manning purification equipment and driving half-ton trucks filled with supplies and equipment. The first contingent of soldiers didn't receive orders until Saturday afternoon.

A spokeswoman at Fort Polk said she did not know why the base received its deployment orders so late in the game. "You'd have to ask the Pentagon," she said. A senior Army official said the service was reluctant to commit the 4th brigade of the 10th Mountain Division from Fort Polk, because the unit, which numbers several thousand soldiers, is in the midst of preparing for an Afghanistan deployment in January.

As a result, the Department of Defense committed thousands of soldiers from Fort Hood in Texas -- as well as from other bases around the country -- to the relief effort. In contrast with Myers's claim that there was "no delay" in directing support to the disaster zone, it took these troops "several days" to arrive in Louisiana, according to the Journal:

Instead, the Pentagon chose to send upwards of 7,500 soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas and the 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, N.C., along with Marines from California and North Carolina. Soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division are able to deploy anywhere in the world in 18 hours. It took several days for them to arrive on the ground in Louisiana.

The Journal article also noted the concerns voiced by Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard a month before Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast. In an August 1 interview with a New Orleans TV station, Schneider had worried that the National Guard equipment transferred to Iraq -- including high-water vehicles -- would be needed at home if a natural disaster struck:

When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot [of] equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster that, could be a problem.

"The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard.

Col. Schneider says the state has enough equipment to get by, and if Louisiana were to get hit by a major hurricane, the neighboring states of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have all agreed to help.

According to a September 4 Washington Post article, the three neighboring states cited by Schneider were also hit by Katrina and therefore were too "overwhelmed" to provide such resources to Louisiana:

State officials had planned to turn to neighboring states for help with troops, transportation and equipment in a major hurricane. But in Katrina's case, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida were also overwhelmed, said Denise Bottcher, a Blanco spokesman.

From the September 6 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight:

McINTYRE: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers also insisted that the deployment of U.S. troops to Iraq has had no effect on their ability to respond here. And, in fact, General Myers said the converse is also true, that the deployment of these troops in the disaster zone is not affecting scheduled deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. They said that the suggestions to the contrary were, quote, "flat wrong" -- Lou.

DOBBS: Absolutely flat wrong, but also at the same time, the Department of Defense, Jamie, has not been the focus of criticism, rather the Homeland Security Department and FEMA. While that's not in his purview, did the defense secretary respond to those charges?

From the September 7 Washington Post article headlined "Bush to Probe Storm Response":

He [Rumsfeld] noted that more than 300,000 Army National Guard and Air National Guard troops remain available to help. He sharply rejected the suggestion that the commitment of large numbers of troops to Iraq -- including National Guard soldiers from Louisiana and Mississippi -- had delayed the military's response. About 41,000 Guard troops are in assisting the region.

"Not only was there no delay," said Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "I think we anticipated in most cases -- not in all cases, but in most cases -- the support that was required."..........

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509070003
Who is Bob Williams, and why is he on TV talking about Hurricane Katrina?

On September 6 and 7, numerous national media outlets featured G. Robert "Bob" Williams, president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, falsely criticizing Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin -- both Democrats -- for their handling of the Hurricane Katrina disaster. But none of these media outlets disclosed that the Evergreen Freedom Foundation is a conservative think tank that espouses "limited, accountable government" and receives funding from numerous conservative donors. Nor did they make clear how Williams, who was a Washington state legislator during the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens, is qualified to comment on hurricane disaster relief efforts.

Williams's media tour appears to have been launched by a September 6 Wall Street Journal op-ed. He also was featured on the September 6 editions of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, ABC's World News Tonight, and Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, as well as the September 7 edition of MSNBC's Connected: Coast to Coast.

On his guest appearances on The O'Reilly Factor and Connected: Coast to Coast, Williams claimed that Blanco was largely to blame for the slow government response to Katrina's devastation, because "the feds can't come in" to provide disaster relief unless requested by the governor. This is false; in fact, the Department of Homeland Security's National Response Plan clearly states that the federal government may take a "proactive" response to a catastrophe and bypass state requests for aid. Normally, it is a governor's responsibility to request federal aid in the event of an emergency. But under a "proactive" response, "[s]tandard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." Moreover, Blanco requested federal aid three days before Katrina made landfall in Louisiana. The New Orleans Times-Picayune reprinted Blanco's August 27 request to Bush to declare a state of emergency in Louisiana and to provide "supplementary Federal assistance." Further, the White House had already authorized the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to assist with the hurricane emergency. According to an August 26 White House statement, FEMA was authorized "to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency." .........

Compare the posts on this thread to the NY Times description of Rove's new "OP". Some posts, and the first post in this thread, seem like they could be written by Rove himself or by PR staff at RNC headquarters.

I want you to think....ask questions.....verify or refute.....via your own research, the reliability of what I've presented here. Smear filled talking points aimed at local Louisiana politicians of democratic party affiliation are no subtitute for what this POTUS and his administratiion are really all about.....
all sizzle, no steak!

stevo · 09-08-2005, 05:35 AM

So because we sound alike none of us can think for ourselves? Go back and read ALL my posts in ALL threads concerning katrina. Find the date of the earliest "OP" and "talking points" and keep skirting the issue with a shit-load of articles.

and my [poor taste joke about the dead deleted] wasn't a joke.

Its amazing, this liberal utiopia of Louisiana and New Orleans run by liberals and democrats for the last half a century couldn't protect its own citizens and now its bush's fault. *laugh* *choke*

host · 09-08-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

So because we sound alike none of us can think for ourselves? Go back and read ALL my posts in ALL threads concerning katrina. Find the date of the earliest "OP" and "talking points" and keep skirting the issue with a shit-load of articles.

and my [poor taste joke about the dead deleted] wasn't a joke.

Its amazing, this liberal utiopia of Louisiana and New Orleans run by liberals and democrats for the last half a century couldn't protect its own citizens and now its bush's fault. *laugh* *choke*

I was not addressing you, stevo. I was pointing out the remarkable similarity between Alladin's quote, that I highlighted.....and the theme he chose for his thread, when compared to the NY Time article that detailed the Rove "OP", which has come to pass, and can be observed, when taken in context with the examples of the "OP" in action.......backed by all the links contained in the "shitload of articles" (four.....aside from the NY Times piece....)that I posted.

You, yourself "attack" in a partisan manner, and you criticize the amount of content that I posted, but you refuse to address any of the specifics. It's the same almost all of the time. I post content, worthy of discusssion and rebuttal, those who respond, do so by denigrating me or the way I post, mostly by talking out of their @sses.

I've made a well documented case that Rove is running his usual attack and smear campaign against critics, this time in a time of crisis. Bush's base is predictably behaving as Rove's choir. Why not rebut some specifics in the NYT artiicle, or in the other four articles?

Is this not the way Rove always operates? Is it not a smear? Why is the press facilitating it? Is it fair? Is what Rove is planting, even true? I believe that his talking points are not true, I backed my point with foour artiicles that contain numerous links to usually reliable, MSM sources. What does your response consist of ?

stevo · 09-08-2005, 06:48 AM

Lets try this.

Rove doesn't attack, he reacts. All that is heard from the left day in and day out is attack attack attack the bush administration. Rove reacts to these attacks and defends.

You just cant' get over the fact that for the last half a century the dems had the power and now they can see it slipping away. The only thing they know how to do is attack attack attack. It really is quite amusing.

But I can play the post the article game too. Here's one that spells out why the levee's weren't improved and who's really to blame, since the blame game is so much fun

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20050907a.html

Quote:

Louisiana Officials Could Lose the Katrina Blame Game
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
September 07, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - The Bush administration is being widely criticized for the emergency response to Hurricane Katrina and the allegedly inadequate protection for "the big one" that residents had long feared would hit New Orleans. But research into more than ten years of reporting on hurricane and flood damage mitigation efforts in and around New Orleans indicates that local and state officials did not use federal money that was available for levee improvements or coastal reinforcement and often did not secure local matching funds that would have generated even more federal funding.

In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes.

"In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects."

The levee board promised Times-Picayune readers that the "few manageable gaps" in the walls protecting the city from Mother Nature's waters "will be sealed within four years (1999) completing our circle of protection."

But less than a year later, that same levee board was denied the authority to refinance its debts. Legislative Auditor Dan Kyle "repeatedly faulted the Levee Board for the way it awards contracts, spends money and ignores public bid laws," according to the Times-Picayune. The newspaper quoted Kyle as saying that the board was near bankruptcy and should not be allowed to refinance any bonds, or issue new ones, until it submitted an acceptable plan to achieve solvency.

Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project.

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center.

The following year, the state legislature did appropriate $49.5 million for levee improvements, but the proposed spending had to be allocated by the State Bond Commission before the projects could receive financing. The commission placed the levee improvements in the "Priority 5" category, among the projects least likely to receive full or immediate funding.

The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls.

No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched.

"The problem is money is real tight in Baton Rouge right now," state Sen. Francis Heitmeier (D-Algiers) told the Times-Picayune. "We have to do with what we can get."

Louisiana Commissioner of Administration Mark Drennen told local officials that, if they reduced their requests for state funding in other, less critical areas, they would have a better chance of getting the requested funds for levee improvements. The newspaper reported that in 2000 and 2001, "the Bond Commission has approved or pledged millions of dollars for projects in Jefferson Parish, including construction of the Tournament Players Club golf course near Westwego, the relocation of Hickory Avenue in Jefferson (Parish) and historic district development in Westwego."

There is no record of such discretionary funding requests being reduced or withdrawn, but in October of 2003, nearby St. Charles Parish did receive a federal grant for $475,000 to build bike paths on top of its levees.

Earlier this year, the levee board did complete a $2.5 million restoration project. After months of delays, officials rolled away fencing to reveal the restored 1962 Mardi Gras fountain in a four-acre park featuring a new 600-foot plaza between famous Lakeshore Drive and the sea wall.

Financing for the renovation came from a property tax passed by New Orleans voters in 1983. The tax, which generates more than $6 million each year for the levee board, is dedicated to capital projects. Levee board officials defended more than $600,000 in cost overruns for the Mardi Gras fountain project, according to the Times-Picayune, "citing their responsibility to maintain the vast green space they have jurisdiction over along the lakefront."

Democrats blame Bush administration

Congressional Democrats have been quick to blame the White House for poor preparation and then a weak response related to Hurricane Katrina. U.S. Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee, joined two of his colleagues from the Transportation and Infrastructure and Homeland Security committees Tuesday in a letter requesting hearings into what the trio called a "woefully inadequate" federal response.

"Hurricane Katrina was an unstoppable force of nature," Waxman wrote along with Reps. James Oberstar (D-Minn.) and Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.). "But it is plain that the federal government could have done more, sooner, to respond to the immediate survival needs of the residents of Louisiana and Mississippi.

"In fact, different choices for funding and planning to protect New Orleans may even have mitigated the flooding of the city," the Democrats added.

But Rep. Tom Davis (R-Va.) suggested that Waxman "overlooks many other questions that need to be asked, and prematurely faults the federal government for all governmental shortcomings; in fact, local and state government failures are not mentioned at all in [Waxman's] letter."

Davis wrote that Waxman's questions about issues such as the lack of federal plans for evacuating residents without access to vehicles and the alleged failure of the Department of Homeland Security to ensure basic communications capacity for first responders might "prematurely paint the picture that these are solely, or even primarily, federal government responsibilities.

"This is not the time to attack or defend government entities for political purposes. Rather, this is a time to do the oversight we're charged with doing," Davis continued. "Our Committee will aggressively investigate what went wrong and what went right. We'll do it by the book, and let the chips fall where they may."

The House Government Reform Committee will begin hearings on federal disaster preparations and the response to Hurricane Katrina the week of Sept. 12. The House Energy and Commerce Committee is schedule to hold hearings on the economic recovery from Katrina beginning Wednesday morning.

and another one

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

Quote:

Blame Amid the Tragedy
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.

BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?

As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.

Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.

The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.

Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.

The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.

The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.

Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.

State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."

I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.

The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.

Please tell me again how this is bush's fault and rove is just an attack machine, because I'm just to thick-headed to understand the liberal POV

killeena · 09-08-2005, 07:14 AM

I really wish people would stop using this disaster to further their political agenda. All I see anymore on this forum and other places is whining about "well the left did this", or "the right does that." Step out of this box that you have put yourself in, and you may realize that this has nothing to do with left vs right, dems vs repubs, Bush vs everyone else. Our government as a whole failed the people of NO, and we need to stop playing the blame game, and figure out what the hell went wrong.

stevo · 09-08-2005, 07:15 AM

I'm sorry it went that way. But if you want to figure out what the hell went wrong read the two articles I posted. They clearly show what went wrong.

host · 09-08-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I'm sorry it went that way. But if you want to figure out what the hell went wrong read the two articles I posted. They clearly show what went wrong.

stevo, Bob Williams, author of your second article, is a conservative commentator for a newspaper known for its partisan bias and unflinching support for Bush. This is a link to comments from readers about William's article. The article and the responses all seem like Rove's talking points choir:http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/...e_id=110007219

Your first article, is written by Jeff Johnson. The results of this google search indicate that he is more of a partisan hack than an MSM news reporter....
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

Your citations back the reporting of the NY Times that Rove is overseeing a thoroughly orchestrated attack on local N.O. officials. Williams and Johnson seem always ready to write on any Rove attack theme.

I posted an article by news reporters ADAM NAGOURNEY and Anne E. Kornblutt of the NY Times. They may be too partisan for your liking, but they are professionals who work for the newspaper of record in the U.S., not known for blatant bias that WSJ is famous for.

this is a politics thread. If what Nagourney and Kornblutt report is true, the main white house effort is cynical, self serving, malicious, and lacking any of the compassion which Bush attempts to project to all of us. Rove is at work, it needs to be pointed out now, while we can observe the execution of the smear "OP" in progress. Watch the "Plaming" of Louisiana's political leaders, we have a branch of it in the creation of this thread and in some of the poster's Rovesque comments.

stevo · 09-08-2005, 08:40 AM

So are you saying the articles I posted were blatant lies, totally untrue? Is that what you are saying. I don't understand. So rove invented all this. He invented the mismanagement of the funds to reinforce the NO levees for the last decades and he invented local government responsibilities after the fact. Is that what you are saying? Did rove make the hurricane as well? Did he steer it directly into New Orleans to kill as many poor and black people as he could? Is that what you are saying? Because these claims are about as outlandish as yours.

Rove didn't write these articles. He has nothing to do with any of this. I think possibly your deep hatred for Karl Rove is that you secretly are in love with him, totally attracted to him, and don't know how to admit it to yourself. Other than that there aren't many other reasons for your seething hatred of this man who has nothing to do with the hurricane or the local, state, or federal response.

Charlatan · 09-08-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Rove didn't write these articles. He has nothing to do with any of this. I think possibly your deep hatred for Karl Rove is that you secretly are in love with him, totally attracted to him, and don't know how to admit it to yourself. Other than that there aren't many other reasons for your seething hatred of this man who has nothing to do with the hurricane or the local, state, or federal response.

That's pretty funny...

But I think you are too quick to assume that Rove is not madly working some spin behind the scenes. I don't know if the articles you posted are a direct result of Rove's efforts, an indirect result of the same or just a coincidence. Even those who are quick to support Bush can recognize that Bush has been taking a beating in the mainstream press and ultimately did not come out of Katrina looking so hot (regardless of whether or not he did the right thing).

If Rove wasn't busy trying to spin the story to repair some of the damage done to his boy's image he wouldn't be doing his job.

(I've said it elsewhere on this board but will say it again, Bush and his handlers missed a very solid opportunity to build support for their side. Regardless of what he was supposed to do or who was supposed to be in charge, Bush should have at least looked like he was doing the right thing. The photo OP with him playing guitar should *never* have happened. He should have had his ass on the plane to DC as soon as possible and been at least looking like he was trying to make things happen).

powerclown · 09-08-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

stevo, Bob Williams, author of your second article, is a conservative commentator.....

Your first article, is written by Jeff Johnson. The results of this google search indicate that he is more of a partisan hack than an MSM news reporter....

Bravo, host. Karl Rove and his band of "thugs" couldn't have smeared any better. Do you have any of your patented references to back up your smear attempts? You provide them to 'legitimize' your opinions, but what about your smear attempts?

Why are your 'sources' are any more valid than stevos?

What is the operational difference between your hitman tactics and those you accuse your friend Karl Rove of?

09-05-2005, 05:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	Comparing Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina. Let's compare Louisiana's response and Mississippi's response to Katrina. One major principle of the United States government is federalism. There are certain powers that belong to state and local governments, and there are certain powers that belong to the National government. Local officials are charged with preparing for local emergencies. The national government comes in to help states at the request of state officials. With this in mind, I submit that state and local officials in Louisiana and New Orleans have completely failed the people of that state and city. Compare the response of Louisianna officials to the response of Mississippi officials, and the contrast couldn't be greater. The following article is from http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/0...louisiana.html. "I read Gov. Blanco's (D-LA) statement too with some weird bemusement. What's been lost in all the blather over New Orleans is that it was really Mississippi that took the big hit. The buildings in New Orleans are still standing; the Gulf Coast of Mississippi basically has been scrubbed, like God took out a pencil eraser and just erased it. (Up in the northern hemisphere, since storms spin counterclockwise, the worst part of a hurricane is the "right-front" quadrant - because the wind is going with the momentum of the storm's movement, plus the wind pushes the storm surge along. The center hit basically at the MS/LA state line, so MS was on the bad side.) I really don't like to find fault at times like this, but one thing that was missing was a quick recognition that in such a situation the potential for civil collapse is nearly 100%. Once the weather settles, you need to immediately declare marshal law and send in the MPs. That's basically what Haley Barbour did in Mississippi - there were a few early problems but very quickly the MPs were patrolling what was left of Biloxi and Gulfport and keeping a lid on things. Back on Tuesday when I put on the news and we all saw Kathleen Blanco bursting into tears, I knew that was the wrong message and would bring trouble. Louisiana and New Orleans basically have those touchy-feely, "I'm okay, you're okay" soft-leftie types in charge. Their education took a few days and has been expensive. So I hope you're Watching Mississippi. Highly recommended - we may have found our next President out of this (you heard it here first). Amidst all the hyperventilating that's going on, it's actually a good time for a civics lesson, particularly watching the competence of the people in Mississippi and the gross incompetence of almost all concerned in Louisiana. Who was responsible for what? - The mayor of NO has been a good hyperventilator, but one thing became obvious quickly. NO is below sea level and it was inevitable that someday The Worst was going to happen. NO didn't even take the worse possible hit (MS did), but it was clear that no one in NO had ever planned for The Worst. Last weekend, the mayor said, "Everyone get out of town." It's obvious that lots of people weren't able to just load up the car and go - folks with no transportation like that, the incapacitated, patients in hospitals, etc. There was no plan to really evacuate the city, and it's the local officials (over decades) who were responsible for that. - Why wasn't the National Guard called out sooner to maintain order? Responsibility with each state's National Guard contingent in situations like this (where they operate within state boundaries) is the responsibility of each state's governor. To put it bluntly, the responsibility for calling out the NG in LA rested with the governor. If it didn't happen on time, that's HER failing. Mississippi got hammered much worse than Louisiana but is barely in the news because the leadership has been much more competent. Ms. Blanco is clearly way out of her league in this situation. This was a good reminder that LA has for decades been our worst managed and most corrupt state. I briefly caught a bit of the News Hour last night, and David Brooks pointed that out; he also pointed out something that's pretty obvious - for the most part, the South has been booming for the past 25 or so years. The major cities went from backwater jokes to leading cities - Atlanta, Raleigh, Dallas, all of Florida, etc. The "hole in the map" in all of this has been Louisiana - it's like the last 25 or 30 years of southern growth have passed it right by. Get away from the gussified tourist areas and NO is a pretty awful city. He also asked why we were so good at quick response halfway around the world in Banda Aceh while we seemed so unable to handle something right in the country. That's actually pretty obvious to me. Indonesia was a piece of cake because there was no bureaucracy out there - "What have we got over near there?" "The USS Lincoln battlegroup." "Send 'em in and let the Navy people on site to run the show." Inside this country, you have multiple interlocking bureaucracies that just don't know what to do on their own, let alone when they try to interact... The most effective response to NO probably would have been to just turn the project over to the Navy immediately and tell everyone else to leave them alone. But of course that wouldn't happen because then all those bureaucracies would be forced to admit that they are much worse than useless when the crunch comes..." __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. Last edited by Aladdin Sane; 09-05-2005 at 05:03 AM..

09-05-2005, 11:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Nice post. I'd add that the television media won't do much in regard to covering this--Katie Couric and her ilk are too busy acting like they predicted this, and had explicit plans in place. Repeat after me: It's all Bush's fault.... __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

09-06-2005, 07:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I just have one question. The mayor of NO and the gov of LA stated that the superdome would be able to house up to 30,000 of the city's poorest during the storm. 9,000 came during katrina and 15,000 were there after the storm. The superdome couldn't house 15,000 people for 2 days! Didn't have enough food, water, security. How many days were they expecting to house 30,000 people? 3/4 a way through the storm? The gov and mayor definately dropped the ball on this. their first priority should be to protect their citizens and they did NOTHING. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-06-2005, 12:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So who do we have to elect to anticipate these things? __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-06-2005, 02:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
aswo Crazy	I think i heard the same thing, martial law has all kinds of wierd laws in order to be enforced __________________ People who love people

09-05-2005, 11:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I watched a news interview with Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore today. The reporter was telling him how messed up and unprepared the federal leaders were and until he showed up things were out of control. The reporter said that FEMA should have sent the General there earlier. The General told him that he was wrong and that they were ready to go in as soon as the storm ended but that the early responders were becomming victims themselves and he could not go on any earlier. I have heard interviews with General Honore several times recently and he seems to have a lot of credibility.

09-06-2005, 07:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
Salomon Loser	Well said, Aladdin Sane. I couldn't agree more. Blaming the Feds for this is like blaming them for a local bank robbery.

09-06-2005, 12:33 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I believe they told all people going to the super dome to bring food for X days. It would be safe to assume the people who showed up after the hurricane hit didn't have this.

09-06-2005, 01:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
MoonDog Psycho Location: Buffalo, New York	Rekna is right, if I remember correctly. Anyone retreating to the Superdome was asked to bring food (and drink?) for...I think it was 3 days. I remember hearing, on NPR I think, the factoid that the Louisiana state contitution does not even allow for martial law to be declared. If that's true, it was never an option.

09-07-2005, 06:30 AM	#20 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Follow the links, look at other disaters on the site and you will wee no less action taken by FEMA for katrina than with any other hurricane. They are all on there, look around. What do you want bush to say? "the federal response to katirna was perfect" FEMA fucked shit up. thats for sure. They were directing truckloads of water to towns that couldn't be reached because they were 15 feet under water, so there are truckloads of water trapped on a road just miles from the people that need it. The coordination was horrible - thats not the president's fault, thats falls on the shoulders of the administration of Louisiana and NewOrleans - they coordinate with FEMA, not the president. Bush actually urged that NewOrleans call for mandatory evacuations on saturday (the storm didn't hit until early am monday). He urged that everyone leave. Mayor Nagin didn't call for an evacuation until 18hrs before katrina hit. Nagin did nothing for his citizens. He could have evacuated the poor, but instead he left these buses to flood. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-07-2005, 09:49 AM	#24 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	LMAO, the only "fact" that everyone reading politics can see is a small handful of TFP members can't seem to go through a single day without personally attacking host. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

09-07-2005, 11:04 AM	#26 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So is it bush's fault the mayor of new orleans decided not to use those buses to evacuate his poor, huddled masses, yearning not to drown?? __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-07-2005, 05:18 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	The state and local culpability is becoming clear It becomes clearer by the day that the local and state governments in Louisianna are mainly responsible for the delayed help in the aftermath of Katrina. The Red Cross is confirming that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center. (http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html). Furthermore, as I type this the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisianna are revealing their ongoing confusion by publicly disagreeing over the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. The Mayor has ordered it and the Governor is saying he can't do it without her permission. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. Last edited by Aladdin Sane; 09-07-2005 at 05:23 PM..

09-08-2005, 05:35 AM	#32 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So because we sound alike none of us can think for ourselves? Go back and read ALL my posts in ALL threads concerning katrina. Find the date of the earliest "OP" and "talking points" and keep skirting the issue with a shit-load of articles. and my [poor taste joke about the dead deleted] wasn't a joke. Its amazing, this liberal utiopia of Louisiana and New Orleans run by liberals and democrats for the last half a century couldn't protect its own citizens and now its bush's fault. laugh choke __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-08-2005, 07:14 AM	#35 (permalink)
killeena Crazy Location: Meechigan	I really wish people would stop using this disaster to further their political agenda. All I see anymore on this forum and other places is whining about "well the left did this", or "the right does that." Step out of this box that you have put yourself in, and you may realize that this has nothing to do with left vs right, dems vs repubs, Bush vs everyone else. Our government as a whole failed the people of NO, and we need to stop playing the blame game, and figure out what the hell went wrong. __________________ Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices. - Theodor Adorno

09-08-2005, 07:15 AM	#36 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I'm sorry it went that way. But if you want to figure out what the hell went wrong read the two articles I posted. They clearly show what went wrong. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-08-2005, 08:40 AM	#38 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So are you saying the articles I posted were blatant lies, totally untrue? Is that what you are saying. I don't understand. So rove invented all this. He invented the mismanagement of the funds to reinforce the NO levees for the last decades and he invented local government responsibilities after the fact. Is that what you are saying? Did rove make the hurricane as well? Did he steer it directly into New Orleans to kill as many poor and black people as he could? Is that what you are saying? Because these claims are about as outlandish as yours. Rove didn't write these articles. He has nothing to do with any of this. I think possibly your deep hatred for Karl Rove is that you secretly are in love with him, totally attracted to him, and don't know how to admit it to yourself. Other than that there aren't many other reasons for your seething hatred of this man who has nothing to do with the hurricane or the local, state, or federal response. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 09-08-2005 at 08:43 AM..