Did FEMA Fail Us? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

alansmithee · 09-09-2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

This is the BS I'm talking about (btw you are saying there are absolutely no whites there?????). THEY ARE FUCKING PEOPLE......

Black, white, purple, blue, red, yellow, polka dot..... who the fuck cares??????? 1000's are dead and dying, wading in raw sewage trying to just live and THIS is all you can say?????????

If it were you and you lost everything you owned, had to tread water for 5 days and watched people fucking die before your eyes......... don't you think you deserve some fucking help from our Goddamned government and not fingers being pointed at your race? And so what if they are the ones pointing it out..... I don't give a flying fuck, they need fucking help. THEY ARE PEOPLE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THEY DESERVE AND NEED OUR HELP AND WE'RE GOING TO SIT AND ARGUE OVER PARTY AND RACE???????

The fucking racism (both sides) on this board and in this country is fucking pathetic. I thought we were getting past all this.

From what you posted, all I have left to say is I pray you never have to go through what those PEOPLE had to and shall have to.

I think you misunderstood me (as I expected). I was merely trying to say that because the view of NO was mainly of black victims, America in general was more likely to not respond with maximum effort. They are also more likely to dehumanize the victims, and put issues above lives. I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general.

raveneye · 09-09-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

My question is whether we have any central coordinating agency to deal with the next hurricane *this* year.

I think the short answer to your question unfortunately is "no", which is more than a little unsettling given that we're currently sitting on the peak of the season, which is going to last another couple months. We could very easily have 2-3 more major hurricanes in the U.S. before winter.

pan6467 · 09-09-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I think you misunderstood me (as I expected). I was merely trying to say that because the view of NO was mainly of black victims, America in general was more likely to not respond with maximum effort. They are also more likely to dehumanize the victims, and put issues above lives. I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general.

So even if those aren't your views, you would rather post that garbage than try to find a way to help and get over it?

You'd rather point fingers, keep hate alive and say "I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general." than to look for true answers and just let go of it.

That's a great example of what I'm talking about.... it's always... "the other person thinks....." or "the other person says....." instead of saying we need to get past this shit, and work on helping these people first, making sure they have food water and shelter...... then deal with the other issues and clean our act up.

It's like when I listened to Springer this AM on my way home from work and he played some of Limbaugh, where Limbaugh had a caller saying (and I paraphrase) "These people hit the jackpot, we're giving those blacks and poor people designer clothes and money so they can trade it all in for crack?" and Limbaugh not only agreed but added more to it by saying "this will really make your day, we're even giving them credit cards." (Red Cross cards so that they can buy food and find shelter when they get relocated..... but I guess Limbaugh and his audience are right they'll all buy crack with it.)

Yeah, these poor people flipping lose EVERYTHING wade for days in raw sewage and filth, starve, watch people die in front of their eyes, will have mental scars we can never even imagine.... and we have people calling in on the radio AND radio hosts (most of whom claim to be "Christian" propegating and continuing to push and preach hatred towards victims of the USA's worst natural disaster in whoi knows how long, these self righteous ignorant talk show hosts and their audiences want to begrudge these poor people food, clothing and safety...... from their nice warm homes, as they wear dry clothes and know when and where their next meal is coming from???????

FUCKING GET OVER IT AND DO SOMETHING, DONATE WHATEVER YOU CAN AFFORD, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY BLOOD OR PRAYERS..... AND BE THANKFUL YOU ARE ALIVE AND DIDN'T GO THROUGH IT.... DON'T BEGRUDGE THESE PEOPLE ANYTHING..... ASK YOURSELF WHAT WOULD CHRIST DO????? WHAT WOULD YOUR GOD THINK OF THE HATRED AND PETTINESS YOU DISPLAY?

meembo · 09-09-2005, 09:22 AM

CNN is breaking with the story that "FEMA director Michael Brown (is) being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN."

There isn't a link yet for this on CNN.

raveneye · 09-09-2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meembo

"FEMA director Michael Brown (is) being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN."

Why? He did such a good job; Katrina didn't kill a single Arabian horse after all.

pig · 09-09-2005, 09:35 AM

Well, its the natural outcome of his disassembling strategery. It's a good move, given the track record...there's nothing that can be done to undo this tragedy, but at least it seems that the leviathon is finally moving.

stevo · 09-09-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It's like when I listened to Springer this AM on my way home from work and he played some of Limbaugh, where Limbaugh had a caller saying (and I paraphrase) "These people hit the jackpot, we're giving those blacks and poor people designer clothes and money so they can trade it all in for crack?" and Limbaugh not only agreed but added more to it by saying "this will really make your day, we're even giving them credit cards." (Red Cross cards so that they can buy food and find shelter when they get relocated..... but I guess Limbaugh and his audience are right they'll all buy crack with it.)

Now hold on. I actually heard that segment on Rush's show wednesday, I happened to be in my car at the time (usually I'm working). I heard the lady call in. Rush did NOT agree with her. He told her she was wrong and that these people didn't hit the jackpot. When she said they'll trade clothes for crack he asked her why she was so angry.

You really don't know what you are talking about here and are straight up lying. I'm working on finding a transcript from that segment and when I do I'll post it up here so everyone can see how you are lying.

---
ok found it

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...ain.guest.html

Quote:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Here's Cynthia in St. Louis as I promised we'd get to the phones. Glad you waited Cynthia. Welcome to the program.

CALLER: Thank you, Rush. I heard on Fox News this morning that the mayor of New Orleans produced a DVD that was to be sent to all the residents so that they would know what to do in case of an emergency. First of all, how poor are these people if they all have DVD players? Number two, I dare say that I think my sympathy from now on is going to go to the communities like mine who are absorbing most of this welfare riffraff, not the working people, because now the gangs, uniformed and non that were busted up in New Orleans are going to be in our communities. That's just great, I love that. And what are they talking about rebuilding this open septic tank called New Orleans? I would think that all the greenies and the EPA would be dead set against that, after all, it's a natural wetland. The whole thing is preposterous, it clearly demonstrates the hypocrisy, and not only the hypocrisy of the left, but the idiocy of the right to fall into the trap and play along with it and give everything away to people who don't deserve it.

RUSH: Hey, Cynthia, let me ask you a couple questions, then.

CALLER: Okay.

RUSH: What do you think about the $2,000 debit card to the victims of the hurricane (story)?

CALLER: Well, I'll tell you what, Rush, I just lost my job that I had for years because I speak out against Democrats and I work in courthouses, and --

RUSH: A-ha, so it's Bush's fault --

CALLER: No, no, no. No, the Democrats fabricated charges against me, and while I'm doing fine because I've saved and prepared for such a day, I would love to have a $2,000 debit card right now. These people have hit the jackpot. This is more than they've ever had.

RUSH: You can't say that they've hit the jackpot. Now, Cynthia, they have not -- they have not hit the jackpot.

CALLER: Rush, right now they're sitting in limbo, but when it's all said and done, they're going to have new trailers, new apartments, new communities. They don't want to -- the thugs – they don't want to go back to New Orleans, everything they did there, they're going to do that to us now.

RUSH: That's who we are. That's the American people. We're not going to sit here and tolerate that kind of suffering. That's who we are. This is nothing unique. I don't want to ruin your day here, but try this. "Three truckloads of fashion clothing seized by government agents for violating import quotas arrived at Houston's Astrodome on Wednesday so Hurricane Katrina refugees there can put it to use. U.S. Customs and Border Protection delivered about 100,000 items of summer clothing, with an estimated value of $2.3 million, and said much more is on the way to evacuees elsewhere."

CALLER: How much do you think will get traded for crack?

RUSH: Cynthia, why are you so bitter?

CALLER: I'm bitter, Rush, because I grew up a Democrat being sold a bill of goods on how the Democrat Party was for the little guy, and it was all a lie. They're socialists. All they want to do is take from working people, the people they propose they want to protect, and give it all to nonworking people. And I'm absolutely sick of it. I mean, not to mention the rest of their crazy foreign policy philosophies and their views on abortion and homosexual marriage. They're all liars, they're all hypocrites, and I'm really getting upset. Republicans aren't standing up to them and saying, "No, this is not rational. This is crazy." Sure, we don't want them down there drowning. Let's left them up, put them in a shelter, not in fancy hotels, find shelters for them --

RUSH: We're not putting them up in fancy hotels. The Superdome is not a fancy hotel. You wouldn't want to live in the Superdome.

CALLER: No, you're right, I wouldn't want to live in the Superdome but I wouldn't mind having some of the new housing that they're talking about spending money on.

RUSH: Well, what is that, Habitat for Humanity, Jimmy Carter is going to go pound some nails or something?

CALLER: Houses in boxes they're calling them.

RUSH: Cynthia, this is what we do. The families of those who lost their lives on 9/11 got an average payout of, what was it, $1.9 million. Some families got as much as ten or $12 million. The average payout was 1.9 million. What if the Katrina victims start demanding that? We've set a precedent here with 9/11. Hold on to your back pocket.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: This is Renee in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Renee. I'm glad you called.

CALLER: Hi, Rush. I am completely beyond anger at your caller, Cynthia.

RUSH: I thought there'd be some people angry at that, yeah.

CALLER: Oh, my gosh. They hit the jackpot? I mean, they've seen their babies die, their mothers die, their fathers die. For a week I cried at the television, I can't imagine being there. Can she put herself in their situation for one minute?

RUSH: I agree with you, I thought her statement was a little excessive, a little over the top, not very useful.

CALLER: Not at all.

RUSH: Not at all. But, but, but liberals tell us we need to understand people who make extreme statements like Bush is Hitler, Bush wanted to kill blacks, Bush should be assassinated. There have been books written. We've been told we should examine this kind of thinking and not be so quick to reject it, not be so knee-jerk, as it were. So maybe we should examine what Cynthia had to say and try to find out maybe there's some lesson to be learned there.

CALLER: Maybe a lesson, but all you have to know is humanity. That's it.

RUSH: Well, she's angry, would you agree?

CALLER: I am angry.

RUSH: Well, I know, but we need to understand her rage. That's what we're told about Cindy Sheehan: we must understand, we must have empathy, we must understand why she's so upset and mad; we must understand why Cynthia is so raging mad. And, by the way, this story from the LA Times indicates that many people in New Orleans think their lives have been, you know, those that survived, they don't want to go back, I mean they're looking at brighter days by not returning there. That's not hitting the jackpot. Don't confuse that.

But, you know, if I may be serious for a moment, I want to take you back to the first day of this, before the levees even broke, and I just want to remind you what I said. This is going to be horrible and it's going to be a mess for a long time, but this place is going to get rebuilt, economic activity will focus down there, and things will happen. I don't know how long it's going to take, but the city is going to be rebuilt, and it will have its population. The question is who's going to live there? I mean, why would the wards of the state that were treated the way they were, why would they go back there?

END TRANSCRIPT

Now that lady cynthia that called in, she's a disgrace, she doesn't speak for me, rush, or any other conservative. But after you read this transcrip tell me again that rush agreed that these people hit the jackpot and can't wait to buy crack with it.

You wear your partisanship on your sleeve, pan. Whether you want to admit it or not. and your spreading of misinformation and lies doesn't help your credibility one bit.

pan6467 · 09-09-2005, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Now hold on. I actually heard that segment on Rush's show wednesday, I happened to be in my car at the time (usually I'm working). I heard the lady call in. Rush did NOT agree with her. He told her she was wrong and that these people didn't hit the jackpot. When she said they'll trade clothes for crack he asked her why she was so angry.

You really don't know what you are talking about here and are straight up lying. I'm working on finding a transcript from that segment and when I do I'll post it up here so everyone can see how you are lying.

I am not lying, I said I heard it on Springer and paraphrased..... which is the Left's version of Limbaugh and if you find the transcript and show his response was different and altered by Springer.... then I will appologize for jumping to conclusions.... but knowing Limbaugh and how he blamed the London bombings THE DAY of the bombings on the left I was not surprised.

stevo · 09-09-2005, 10:05 AM

So maybe Springer is the liar? Don't listen to springer he'll rot your brain with his lies.

guthmund · 09-09-2005, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meembo

CNN is breaking with the story that "FEMA director Michael Brown (is) being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN."

There isn't a link yet for this on CNN.

Two flavors...MSNBC link... and story from CNN

pan6467 · 09-09-2005, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Now hold on. I actually heard that segment on Rush's show wednesday, I happened to be in my car at the time (usually I'm working). I heard the lady call in. Rush did NOT agree with her. He told her she was wrong and that these people didn't hit the jackpot. When she said they'll trade clothes for crack he asked her why she was so angry.

You really don't know what you are talking about here and are straight up lying. I'm working on finding a transcript from that segment and when I do I'll post it up here so everyone can see how you are lying.

---
ok found it

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...ain.guest.html

Now that lady cynthia that called in, she's a disgrace, she doesn't speak for me, rush, or any other conservative. But after you read this transcrip tell me again that rush agreed that these people hit the jackpot and can't wait to buy crack with it.

You wear your partisanship on your sleeve, pan. Whether you want to admit it or not. and your spreading of misinformation and lies doesn't help your credibility one bit.

Having read your transcript, I will admit again..... I heard my version on Springer having taken a vow never to listen to Limbaugh again after the British bombings.

It does appear from the transcript Rush tried to handle it well and didn't agree.

He did have to jab the Dems.... I guess that is why he makes his huge money though..... just as Springer makes his jabbing the GOP.

Both sides are wrong and I have been saying that. I have never said I was non-partisan, in fact I have always admitted to being Left, but I am willing to listen to the right and will agree and work with them when needed..... this is a time when partisanship needs to be thrown out and we need to work together.

What we have seen from our showings of a show on each side is that the talking heads are spewing hatred, taking jabs and using this tragedy to further their side.

It's wrong. And I admit I was wrong for believing what I heard on Springer before checking it out.

stevo · 09-09-2005, 10:33 AM

sorry for calling you a liar, then.

pan6467 · 09-09-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

sorry for calling you a liar, then.

Lol.... now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. No reason to be sorry, I was called out and rightfully so. I'm man enough to admit I was wrong and that I should have checked the facts, and not just 1 side.

And I have admitted in other threads, I am as big of a hypocrit as anyone else... I can be very partisan as I shout the partisanship needs to end.... I think I'm in the majority there though.... where ya know the partisanship is wrong but then you see something you totally disagree with or "a shot fired" and the passion bubbles over before the mind can process and be rational.

Elphaba · 09-09-2005, 01:02 PM

I love happy endings. Dabs eyes and sniffles

alansmithee · 09-09-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

So even if those aren't your views, you would rather post that garbage than try to find a way to help and get over it?

You'd rather point fingers, keep hate alive and say "I wasn't speaking so much from personal perspective as from the perspective of Americans in general." than to look for true answers and just let go of it.

That's a great example of what I'm talking about.... it's always... "the other person thinks....." or "the other person says....." instead of saying we need to get past this shit, and work on helping these people first, making sure they have food water and shelter...... then deal with the other issues and clean our act up.

It's like when I listened to Springer this AM on my way home from work and he played some of Limbaugh, where Limbaugh had a caller saying (and I paraphrase) "These people hit the jackpot, we're giving those blacks and poor people designer clothes and money so they can trade it all in for crack?" and Limbaugh not only agreed but added more to it by saying "this will really make your day, we're even giving them credit cards." (Red Cross cards so that they can buy food and find shelter when they get relocated..... but I guess Limbaugh and his audience are right they'll all buy crack with it.)

Yeah, these poor people flipping lose EVERYTHING wade for days in raw sewage and filth, starve, watch people die in front of their eyes, will have mental scars we can never even imagine.... and we have people calling in on the radio AND radio hosts (most of whom claim to be "Christian" propegating and continuing to push and preach hatred towards victims of the USA's worst natural disaster in whoi knows how long, these self righteous ignorant talk show hosts and their audiences want to begrudge these poor people food, clothing and safety...... from their nice warm homes, as they wear dry clothes and know when and where their next meal is coming from???????

FUCKING GET OVER IT AND DO SOMETHING, DONATE WHATEVER YOU CAN AFFORD, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY BLOOD OR PRAYERS..... AND BE THANKFUL YOU ARE ALIVE AND DIDN'T GO THROUGH IT.... DON'T BEGRUDGE THESE PEOPLE ANYTHING..... ASK YOURSELF WHAT WOULD CHRIST DO????? WHAT WOULD YOUR GOD THINK OF THE HATRED AND PETTINESS YOU DISPLAY?

I still don't think you're understanding me. I was trying to point out the inherent racism in the reaction of the country. Unless you expect me to just look past racism, which I really don't see being of any help. One thing I will not stick my head in the sand over is racism.

pan6467 · 09-09-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I still don't think you're understanding me. I was trying to point out the inherent racism in the reaction of the country. Unless you expect me to just look past racism, which I really don't see being of any help. One thing I will not stick my head in the sand over is racism.

Nor should you..... but there were better ways to say what you said. And yes, unfortunately there is inherent racism from ALL races..... but we shouldn't be using that as an excuse or as a way to force more guilt across the US......

People are people and noone deserves what these people have gone through the past 2 weeks.

alansmithee · 09-09-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Nor should you..... but there were better ways to say what you said. And yes, unfortunately there is inherent racism from ALL races..... but we shouldn't be using that as an excuse or as a way to force more guilt across the US......

People are people and noone deserves what these people have gone through the past 2 weeks.

I'm not forcing guilt on anyone. Honestly, I can see much justification for racism. It is other people who chose to attach negative connotation to what I said. And I don't see any better way to get my point across. I think maybe I could've trimmed 3 words from my initial comments, but that wouldn't have had the same emphasis IMO. I think I was extremely succinct and to the point.

pig · 09-10-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee & pan

Etc.

Are y'all arguing about something, because honestly, I can't tell

I wasn't under the impression that anyone was saying that the residents of New Orleans deserved what they got, only that alan was saying he believed that inherent racism affected the nature of the response. Am I missing something?

meembo · 09-10-2005, 09:52 AM

Couldn't agree more, pigglet! I hear alan's argument, and I feel pan's anger. I agree with both.

pig · 09-10-2005, 10:49 AM

meembo

word. my perception was that they were sort of flip sides of the same coin, or bastard cousins or something. all of a sudden there's this contention, and i'm not seeing the point of departure. i think we should all be a little pissed right now (i'm a little scared. southern state, hurricane = happen), and the extent to which poverty and race are intertwined, or whether any inherent associated apathy is involved in the sluggish response, I think, are very real and important questions. I have to say, it's hard for me to imagine that if the Hamptons or Manhatten was in this kind of shit, that they'd be letting those people chill out for a week or so before they got aid to them. I realize it's not that simple, but I think it might be a real factor.

Charlatan · 09-11-2005, 04:43 AM

Good to see Bush finally woke up to the PR nightmare he has on his hands and took the head of FEMA off the relief efforts...

Sadly, instead of just admitting the guy is an incompetant twit, they are still saying, "this isn't a demotion", "he's done a comendible job", etc. Not that I expected them to but it would have been nice to hear them say, "He blew it. When we needed FEMA most, the head of the organization let us down. We are rectifiying that situation. Now let's roll up our sleeves and make this happen."

This approach while respectable would raise too many questions that the Admin would like left unasked. It wouldn't be good politics.

Putting someone in charge who seems to have a clue was a good move (if way late).

Note: This is not to say, FEMA is the only party blame. Read my posts, I think we can all agree that there is plenty of blame to go around at all levels.

flstf · 09-11-2005, 07:53 AM

From what little I have seen so far on the national news programs, it seems that our response to the hurricane victims has been large and continues to pour in. The major critizism seems to be around the slow evacuation and aid to those gathered at the Superdome and the Convention Center.

Just how late was the response? How many lives did the FEMA delay cause? It seems to me that the people evacuated are in better shape than those still in their houses.

Just how fast can we evacuate a whole city anyway? I guess I have more research to do. From what I can tell so far, it seems that more lives would have been saved by better planning at the local and state level than anything that the feds could have done.

pan6467 · 09-11-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Good to see Bush finally woke up to the PR nightmare he has on his hands and took the head of FEMA off the relief efforts...

Sadly, instead of just admitting the guy is an incompetant twit, they are still saying, "this isn't a demotion", "he's done a comendible job", etc. Not that I expected them to but it would have been nice to hear them say, "He blew it. When we needed FEMA most, the head of the organization let us down. We are rectifiying that situation. Now let's roll up our sleeves and make this happen."

This approach while respectable would raise too many questions that the Admin would like left unasked. It wouldn't be good politics.

Putting someone in charge who seems to have a clue was a good move (if way late).

Note: This is not to say, FEMA is the only party blame. Read my posts, I think we can all agree that there is plenty of blame to go around at all levels.

I agree, I'm not trying to use this to slam Bush, but in all honesty, I feel a truly strong president would not have waited this long to "reassign" someone screwing up so badly. Much the same way voters maybe "reassigning" people as soon as elections can be held.

My feeling is that Bush was too scared to admit he had a problem, and tried to show strength by sticking with the man (it wasn't Bush doing the reassigning, from what I read it was the Homeland Secretary who did). A truly strong man stands up and says, "I made a mistake and I'll rectify it."

vautrain · 09-11-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I am not lying, I said I heard it on Springer and paraphrased..... which is the Left's version of Limbaugh

Springer is the LEFT version of Limbaugh? Where the hell have I been? I always thought Springer was just a disgusting freak show. I havn't watches/listened to Springer OR Limbaugh for years and years- they are equally in poor taste, IMO.

pan6467 · 09-11-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vautrain

Springer is the LEFT version of Limbaugh? Where the hell have I been? I always thought Springer was just a disgusting freak show. I havn't watches/listened to Springer OR Limbaugh for years and years- they are equally in poor taste, IMO.

Springer has a radio show and he's good. Very partisan but he's good at it surprisingly.

raveneye · 09-12-2005, 01:07 PM

Michael Brown (aka "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job" -GWB) has resigned today as head of FEMA:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...T-BROWN-DC.XML

This was the right thing for him to do. It is also the right thing to do for the other 4 FEMA Bush appointees with virtually no experience handling disasters:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090802165.html

That is the only way to restore credibility, and it is only a first step, followed by reorganization of the FEMA bureaucracy.

Elphaba · 09-12-2005, 03:36 PM

Thanks for the update. Washington state's FEMA regional director is now under scrutiny by the press to make certain his credentials are credible. It would appear his claim to experience is that he helped clear a mudslide when he was young.

Brownie may have served as the poster child that causes each state to look closely at their FEMA staff. Why does that sound so hopelessly optimistic?

Redlemon · 09-13-2005, 08:22 AM

Bush: 'I take responsibility'

Quote:

Sep 13, 12:09 PM (ET)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush took responsibility on Tuesday for failures in the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina.

"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government, and to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do it's job right, I take responsibility," Bush said. "I want to know what went right and what went wrong."

What does this really mean? If he were a Japanese politician, this statement would be followed with "Here is my resignation". Since he clearly won't resign, what does "responsibility" mean? How does the nation hold him accountable? Do we dock his pay?

alansmithee · 09-13-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Bush: 'I take responsibility'

What does this really mean? If he were a Japanese politician, this statement would be followed with "Here is my resignation". Since he clearly won't resign, what does "responsibility" mean? How does the nation hold him accountable? Do we dock his pay?

What it means? "Boy, I have egg on my face, time for damage control".

How can you hold him responsible? You can't, he's a lame duck president.

Although the dock his pay idea is quite humourous.

pig · 09-13-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Bush: 'I take responsibility'

What does this really mean? If he were a Japanese politician, this statement would be followed with "Here is my resignation". Since he clearly won't resign, what does "responsibility" mean? How does the nation hold him accountable? Do we dock his pay?

I guess we'll find out on Thursday night, but I think it's potentially a step in the right direction. What I'd like to know is the rationale behind the lethargic response of the feds, after the storm had passed through, from Bush's perspective. Does he not see it as his job to get involved, etc?

Charlatan · 09-13-2005, 09:24 AM

Bush and company really fucked up on this one. This is the first major stumble in Bush's PR machine. While I am surprised that he would come out and accept responsibility, I think it was the right thing to do (which is even more surprising).

Let's hope some good can come out of this.

stevo · 09-13-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

What does this really mean? If he were a Japanese politician, this statement would be followed with "Here is my resignation". Since he clearly won't resign, what does "responsibility" mean? How does the nation hold him accountable? Do we dock his pay?

Do you think this is something worthy of a presidential resignation?

stevo · 09-13-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

I guess we'll find out on Thursday night, but I think it's potentially a step in the right direction. What I'd like to know is the rationale behind the lethargic response of the feds, after the storm had passed through, from Bush's perspective. Does he not see it as his job to get involved, etc?

You do realize that the federal response to katrina was faster than the federal response to Hugo and Andrew, don't you?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

Quote:

Jack Kelly: No shame
The federal response to Katrina was not as portrayed
Sunday, September 11, 2005

It is settled wisdom among journalists that the federal response to the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina was unconscionably slow.

Jack Kelly is national security writer for the Post-Gazette and The Blade of Toledo, Ohio (jkelly@post-gazette.com, 412-263-1476).

"Mr. Bush's performance last week will rank as one of the worst ever during a dire national emergency," wrote New York Times columnist Bob Herbert in a somewhat more strident expression of the conventional wisdom.

But the conventional wisdom is the opposite of the truth.

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Frances and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

Journalists who are long on opinions and short on knowledge have no idea what is involved in moving hundreds of tons of relief supplies into an area the size of England in which power lines are down, telecommunications are out, no gasoline is available, bridges are damaged, roads and airports are covered with debris, and apparently have little interest in finding out.

So they libel as a "national disgrace" the most monumental and successful disaster relief operation in world history.

I write this column a week and a day after the main levee protecting New Orleans breached. In the course of that week:

More than 32,000 people have been rescued, many plucked from rooftops by Coast Guard helicopters.

The Army Corps of Engineers has all but repaired the breaches and begun pumping water out of New Orleans.

Shelter, food and medical care have been provided to more than 180,000 refugees.

Journalists complain that it took a whole week to do this. A former Air Force logistics officer had some words of advice for us in the Fourth Estate on his blog, Moltenthought:

"We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on 'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in the recovery effort were studying engineering.

"The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

"You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets (in the affected areas) since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

"No amount of yelling, crying and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above."

"You cannot just snap your fingers and make the military appear somewhere," van Steenwyk said.

Guardsmen need to receive mobilization orders; report to their armories; draw equipment; receive orders and convoy to the disaster area. Guardsmen driving down from Pennsylvania or Navy ships sailing from Norfolk can't be on the scene immediately.

Relief efforts must be planned. Other than prepositioning supplies near the area likely to be afflicted (which was done quite efficiently), this cannot be done until the hurricane has struck and a damage assessment can be made. There must be a route reconnaissance to determine if roads are open, and bridges along the way can bear the weight of heavily laden trucks.

And federal troops and Guardsmen from other states cannot be sent to a disaster area until their presence has been requested by the governors of the afflicted states.

Exhibit A on the bill of indictment of federal sluggishness is that it took four days before most people were evacuated from the Louisiana Superdome.

The levee broke Tuesday morning. Buses had to be rounded up and driven from Houston to New Orleans across debris-strewn roads. The first ones arrived Wednesday evening. That seems pretty fast to me.

A better question -- which few journalists ask -- is why weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?

But I'll probably get spanked

by host for posting this next one, since it is so biased, oh well, you might as not even read it since KKKarl Rove wrote it.

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007508.php http://www.windsofchange.net/archive...all_-print.php

Quote:

The media throws stuff at the wall . . .
by Yehudit at September 11, 2005 08:46 PM

. . . to see if it will stick.

Was the response to Katrina that inept? And if so, was it President Bush's fault? Maybe the reporters flogging this meme should have talked to this NG reservist or these emergency planners in Florida or these black leaders in New Orleans. Or even Senator Landrieu, in a back-handed way.

Or they could have treated the Presidential response to Katrina like they did the Chicago heat wave of 1995, which resulted in many more deaths.

Jeff Goldstein fisks them thoroughly.

More on FEMA's record.

(Here's a clever thing: Google map of New Orleans - click on any point to get flood depth. Out of date, unfortunately.)

Many updates below the fold.

UPDATE: Said news media has also been trumpeting the awarding of reconstruction contracts to supposed Bush cronies, while omitting a salient fact:

The Shaw Group, a multi-billion-dollar conglomerate, is headed by Jim Bernhard, the current chairman of the Louisiana Democratic Party. Bernhard worked tirelessly for Democrat Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco's runoff campaign and served as co-chair of her transition team. Another Shaw executive was Blanco's campaign manager. Bernhard is back-scratching chums with Blanco, whom he has lent/offered the Shaw Group's corporate jets to on numerous occasions.

Here's another stunning example of Blanco's incompetence:

In emergencies like natural disasters it's normal for states to suspend [the requirement that a doctor be licensed in that state] and offer temporary reciprocity with the other 49 states, recognizing their licenses as being valid in the affected state. In an emergency, who cares where your doctor's license comes from? Usually this requires a proclamation from the governor stating that there's an emergency and that out-of-state licenses will temporarily be as good as in-state licenses.

In Louisiana, it took several days for the governor to issue such a proclamation. Meanwhile, doctors from all over the country just sat around in New Orleans, unable to do anything. Before you say "they should have helped people anyway" you should know a little about what could happen to them if they did. Practicing medicine without a license recognized in the state you're in is a major crime, usually a felony with a long prison sentence.

Jay Manifold:
Watch for a noticeable disappointment on the part of some commentators when the Katrina death toll turns out to be much lower than originally feared, and in particular, lower than 9/11. And while that's going on, reflect that a hurricane of essentially the maximum possible size and strength hit perhaps the worst-governed city and state in the country while Federal attention was consumed by managing the altogether different risk of terrorism -- and yet four-fifths of the population of the affected area escaped entirely, and in all likelihood well over 99% of those who did not escape nonetheless survived the disaster. The worst day in this country is better than the best day in a lot of other places. Your homework assignment on this anniversary is to think of reasons why.

Redlemon · 09-13-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Do you think this is something worthy of a presidential resignation?

No. As much as I'd like to see Bush out of the White House, I don't think this is an impeachable offence.

But, if it isn't, what other option is there? And if there is no other option, what good is taking responsibility? It just seems like an empty gesture.

Bill O'Rights · 09-13-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

...what good is taking responsibility? It just seems like an empty gesture.

I would have replied with a simple..."Exactly". But that, it seems, is much too short of a response.

pig · 09-13-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

You do realize that the federal response to katrina was faster than the federal response to Hugo and Andrew, don't you?

Well, Stevo - I'll have to look into it a little more to be able to say exactly how to respond to that. I will say it's contrary to everything I've seen, read or heard about this situation and its relationship to previous disaster relieft efforts, but until I've had time to check into it I'll hold my tongue. And that'll have to wait a bit. Dinner plans and such.

I'm assuming the national guardsmen in the first article has an engineering degree, that's for sure.

edit crap, I almost forgot the second part of what I wanted to say. I went through Hugo, and luckily was far enough inland that the worst thing that happened was my jetski got messed up. I understand it was pretty bad in some parts of Hilton Head and so forth - but from my recollection, the aftermath was nothing, nothing compared to Katrina...primarily because of the New Orleans being 8 ft. below sea level thing, as far as I can tell.

pan6467 · 09-13-2005, 03:39 PM

Let's look at some of the finger pointing show maybe a good response so that the finger pointing can stop and we can move forward and build better so next time we are better ready:

Why didn't people (the government) take the storm more seriously?

I remember the night it hit, I was going into work. Drudge was commending the mayor for maintaining a sense of order and not doling out fear.

I also remember going in having heard that the storm appeared to be weakening and the worst was to miss New Orleans.

Noone knew what the results would be. And even had they told, the resulting mass hysteria would have created similar events.

In my mind I see it like this,

I could go out say run and panic because we don't have enough to save everyone.... creating lawlessness, destruction of that which was going to save people and and total out of control behavior which may lead to more deaths than the storm.

OR

I could look at what I will need to do afterward, knowing there will be 1000's needing help and make the best possible plans I can to save as many as I can. But also realize whatever I do plan may not be available or feasible right away.

I need to turn to someone (FEMA) that is trained and has practiced and formed all kinds of plans to do this job. But then, how do i contact FEMA, how do we coordinate things, and so on. (I have a feeling even though we have FEMA, few mayors and governors (if any) are truly apprised of how to respond, who to call, how to get the help needed.

And even then when you are in panic in the manner of which the panic was in this situation, no matter how educated, what position you hold nor who you are, noone truly knows how they will react nor can be called upon to remember every piece of red tape they have to go through.

OR

I can simply not do a damned thing because I truly have no idea how bad it will be.

Why didn't all the buses get moved out?

Well, let's see, if I recall they kept playing with the strength, raising and lowering it. And by the time the buses were loaded, noone can tell me those buses would be loaded in time so when the hurricane hit, they would have been big old corpses, getting blown off the roads and then the fingers pointers would have said, "who's bright idea were the buses?"

Even if the transportation was safe, you'd cause mass hysteria and riots from people trying to get on, because you could not have possibly had enough transportation for everyone. So then the question would have been "how do you decide who can go and who had to stay?" and that would lead to more finger pointing.

Also where would the buses go? there was no evacuation route that I have seen talked over. the traffic jams that already existed probably caused many many deaths. I remember days before the storm the gas stations had run out of gas, the interstates were bogged down with cars that had overheated, run out of gas, wrecked, or just broke down..... traffic wasn't going anywhere, just look at the news the Fri, Sat, and morning before the storm.

So where were the buses going to go?????????

Why didn't you force evacuation?

Well, gee, it's man's nature to disbelieve how bad something is going to truly be when looking into the jaws of death. It's like smokers, you smoke there's a very very strong chance you will die, but until most smokers hit a wall and realize how bad that death will be they tempt fate. Same can be said with storms, noone who stayed truly knew how bad it would be so they took their chances to stay where they knew.

There were those that couldn't be evacuated, the infirmed and poor with no means of transportation, but again, by the time you loaded them, they'd be on death trains. And how can you force evacuation if you cannot transport every last person out?

And having heard some of the people before, I can understand their thinking... "everything I know is here, I'll take my chances." And again as human nature we don't think how truly bad something will be until it happens.

Why didn't the governor/Bush have troops down there BEFORE the storm?

Can you imagine the outcry as our men and women in the service got ordered down there to their deaths? Come on this isn't even a realistic complaint, yet I've heard it.

Why didn't we get in there sooner and help?

We helicoptered people off roofs, but the city was underwater, what could have been done FEMA did prevent (supposedly) that is not finger pointing that is putting blame where blame truly should be.

Supposedly, there were the Carnival liners that were willing to hold people, there were first responders ready to get in, trucks ready with water and food that were stopped before they could deliver.

And I yelled as loud as anyone, why aren't we getting the materials there.... now the passion has subsided and logic is prevailing.

With the liners, how were the people going to get there? Even though the streets were 8 feet under, the liners couldn't come that far in. So you had to lifeboat people.... and again it comes to how did you decide who, and surely with this you are seriously going to have riots and quite possibly see people destroy the very boats there to help them.

With the supplies that were coming in..... they would have only gotten so far and again as we saw with the looting, I am more of the belief riots would have occured and you would have seen people fighting and getting killed trying to help others because it was impossible to help everyone.

Which again leads to the "how did you decide who to help and why didn't you help these people over here?" Even with logical and pure fact answers people would still claim those facts were all wrong and you didn't help over there for this reason or that.

In conclusion, noone wants to see Bush fall more than I do. But this isn't the thing to get him on. Nor should the GOP be trying to get the Dems, the mayor nor Governor.

It's pathetic the talking heads and partisans have turned this into not just finger pointing but political holy war. There was NOTHING either side could have done.

I am not trying to defend anyone, I am trying to end the partisan bullshit and the finger pointing so that we can help these people in the best and united ways possible. We can't blame anyone, for noone has been through anything like it before, and training and hypotheticals are just those.... I truly don't believe anyone was prepared or knew how to handle it and I don't believe anyone would ever have had that knowledge.

We just need to go in and continue doing what we have, doing the best we can to help as many as we can and to rebuild a better and stronger city. Now we have experienced worst case and now we can truly be prepared...... until the next worst case comes through.... but even then we have a better starting point IF WE LEARN FROM THIS AND STOP POINTING FINGERS.

flstf · 09-13-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

In conclusion, noone wants to see Bush fall more than I do. But this isn't the thing to get him on. Nor should the GOP be trying to get the Dems, the mayor nor Governor.

It's pathetic the talking heads and partisans have turned this into not just finger pointing but political holy war. There was NOTHING either side could have done.

I am not trying to defend anyone, I am trying to end the partisan bullshit and the finger pointing so that we can help these people in the best and united ways possible. We can't blame anyone, for noone has been through anything like it before, and training and hypotheticals are just those.... I truly don't believe anyone was prepared or knew how to handle it and I don't believe anyone would ever have had that knowledge.

We just need to go in and continue doing what we have, doing the best we can to help as many as we can and to rebuild a better and stronger city. Now we have experienced worst case and now we can truly be prepared...... until the next worst case comes through.... but even then we have a better starting point IF WE LEARN FROM THIS AND STOP POINTING FINGERS.

Your analysis is one of the most refreshing I have read on this board and elsewhere.

Hopefully we can figure out how our cities,states, and feds can work together better next time. The partisan bickering will get us nowhere.

raveneye · 09-13-2005, 06:32 PM

One of the top priorities this country needs to have is a complete reorganization of FEMA similar to what Clinton did in the early 90s.

Somebody needs to take a list of all FEMA employees, go down that list and get rid of every single political appointee, and replace them all with experts with the best credentials they can find. Then they need to make a list of all the internal bureaucratic regulations the agency has to follow, and go down the list and get rid of 90% of them. Then they need to make the head of the agency directly answerable to the president.

That's basically what Clinton and Lee Witt did, and the results were obvious. The agency won the 1996 Public Service Excellence Award, mainly due to its praised responses to the Midwestern floods of 1993 and the Oklahoma City bombing.

Bush's mistake was to sink the agency back into a bureacratic swamp after 9/11, after using it as a dumping ground for unqualified political appointees. That's exactly the same shape it was in back when his dad was president, and Hugo and Andrew and the Loma Prieta California earthquake hit. After Hugo hit South Carolina, the governor of South Carolina Ernst Hollings called FEMA a "sorry bunch of bureaucratic jackasses." After the earthquake, Congressman Norman Mineta said FEMA "couldn't manage a two-car parade." After Andrew, the Wall Street Journal ran a story saying FEMA was beyond repair and should be dissolved entirely.

Then came Clinton's reorganization, which made the agency not only functional, but award-winning. I don't think there's any doubt anymore that a similar revamping is needed now -- there will be another terrorist attack, and there will be another San Francisco earthquake, and there will be more hurricanes.

stevo · 09-14-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raveneye

Bush's mistake was to sink the agency back into a bureacratic swamp after 9/11, after using it as a dumping ground for unqualified political appointees.

Why is the FEMA failure only Bush's fault. Why are we not holding senators and congressman responsible? If you remember shortly after 9/11 bush opposed the DHS. It was the senators that drafted the bill and both houses passed it. While bush could have vetoed the bill, it is not entirely bush's fault. I have yet to hear, once on this board, that the Senate or House should take any blame at all. They are the ones in this country who make the laws and decide where money gets spent. Go look at the bill and look at all your favorite liberal senate leaders who voted to put FEMA under the new Homeland Security department and tell me again how this is all Bush's fault.

09-09-2005, 09:22 AM	#84 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	CNN is breaking with the story that "FEMA director Michael Brown (is) being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN." There isn't a link yet for this on CNN. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

09-09-2005, 09:35 AM	#86 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Well, its the natural outcome of his disassembling strategery. It's a good move, given the track record...there's nothing that can be done to undo this tragedy, but at least it seems that the leviathon is finally moving. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-09-2005, 10:05 AM	#89 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So maybe Springer is the liar? Don't listen to springer he'll rot your brain with his lies. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-09-2005, 10:33 AM	#92 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	sorry for calling you a liar, then. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-10-2005, 09:52 AM	#99 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	Couldn't agree more, pigglet! I hear alan's argument, and I feel pan's anger. I agree with both. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

09-09-2005, 01:02 PM	#94 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I love happy endings. Dabs eyes and sniffles

09-10-2005, 10:49 AM	#100 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	meembo word. my perception was that they were sort of flip sides of the same coin, or bastard cousins or something. all of a sudden there's this contention, and i'm not seeing the point of departure. i think we should all be a little pissed right now (i'm a little scared. southern state, hurricane = happen), and the extent to which poverty and race are intertwined, or whether any inherent associated apathy is involved in the sluggish response, I think, are very real and important questions. I have to say, it's hard for me to imagine that if the Hamptons or Manhatten was in this kind of shit, that they'd be letting those people chill out for a week or so before they got aid to them. I realize it's not that simple, but I think it might be a real factor. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-11-2005, 04:43 AM	#101 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Good to see Bush finally woke up to the PR nightmare he has on his hands and took the head of FEMA off the relief efforts... Sadly, instead of just admitting the guy is an incompetant twit, they are still saying, "this isn't a demotion", "he's done a comendible job", etc. Not that I expected them to but it would have been nice to hear them say, "He blew it. When we needed FEMA most, the head of the organization let us down. We are rectifiying that situation. Now let's roll up our sleeves and make this happen." This approach while respectable would raise too many questions that the Admin would like left unasked. It wouldn't be good politics. Putting someone in charge who seems to have a clue was a good move (if way late). Note: This is not to say, FEMA is the only party blame. Read my posts, I think we can all agree that there is plenty of blame to go around at all levels. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-11-2005, 07:53 AM	#102 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	From what little I have seen so far on the national news programs, it seems that our response to the hurricane victims has been large and continues to pour in. The major critizism seems to be around the slow evacuation and aid to those gathered at the Superdome and the Convention Center. Just how late was the response? How many lives did the FEMA delay cause? It seems to me that the people evacuated are in better shape than those still in their houses. Just how fast can we evacuate a whole city anyway? I guess I have more research to do. From what I can tell so far, it seems that more lives would have been saved by better planning at the local and state level than anything that the feds could have done.

09-12-2005, 01:07 PM	#106 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	Michael Brown (aka "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job" -GWB) has resigned today as head of FEMA: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...T-BROWN-DC.XML This was the right thing for him to do. It is also the right thing to do for the other 4 FEMA Bush appointees with virtually no experience handling disasters: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090802165.html That is the only way to restore credibility, and it is only a first step, followed by reorganization of the FEMA bureaucracy.

09-12-2005, 03:36 PM	#107 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Thanks for the update. Washington state's FEMA regional director is now under scrutiny by the press to make certain his credentials are credible. It would appear his claim to experience is that he helped clear a mudslide when he was young. Brownie may have served as the poster child that causes each state to look closely at their FEMA staff. Why does that sound so hopelessly optimistic?

09-13-2005, 09:24 AM	#111 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Bush and company really fucked up on this one. This is the first major stumble in Bush's PR machine. While I am surprised that he would come out and accept responsibility, I think it was the right thing to do (which is even more surprising). Let's hope some good can come out of this. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-13-2005, 03:39 PM	#117 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Let's look at some of the finger pointing show maybe a good response so that the finger pointing can stop and we can move forward and build better so next time we are better ready: Why didn't people (the government) take the storm more seriously? I remember the night it hit, I was going into work. Drudge was commending the mayor for maintaining a sense of order and not doling out fear. I also remember going in having heard that the storm appeared to be weakening and the worst was to miss New Orleans. Noone knew what the results would be. And even had they told, the resulting mass hysteria would have created similar events. In my mind I see it like this, I could go out say run and panic because we don't have enough to save everyone.... creating lawlessness, destruction of that which was going to save people and and total out of control behavior which may lead to more deaths than the storm. OR I could look at what I will need to do afterward, knowing there will be 1000's needing help and make the best possible plans I can to save as many as I can. But also realize whatever I do plan may not be available or feasible right away. I need to turn to someone (FEMA) that is trained and has practiced and formed all kinds of plans to do this job. But then, how do i contact FEMA, how do we coordinate things, and so on. (I have a feeling even though we have FEMA, few mayors and governors (if any) are truly apprised of how to respond, who to call, how to get the help needed. And even then when you are in panic in the manner of which the panic was in this situation, no matter how educated, what position you hold nor who you are, noone truly knows how they will react nor can be called upon to remember every piece of red tape they have to go through. OR I can simply not do a damned thing because I truly have no idea how bad it will be. Why didn't all the buses get moved out? Well, let's see, if I recall they kept playing with the strength, raising and lowering it. And by the time the buses were loaded, noone can tell me those buses would be loaded in time so when the hurricane hit, they would have been big old corpses, getting blown off the roads and then the fingers pointers would have said, "who's bright idea were the buses?" Even if the transportation was safe, you'd cause mass hysteria and riots from people trying to get on, because you could not have possibly had enough transportation for everyone. So then the question would have been "how do you decide who can go and who had to stay?" and that would lead to more finger pointing. Also where would the buses go? there was no evacuation route that I have seen talked over. the traffic jams that already existed probably caused many many deaths. I remember days before the storm the gas stations had run out of gas, the interstates were bogged down with cars that had overheated, run out of gas, wrecked, or just broke down..... traffic wasn't going anywhere, just look at the news the Fri, Sat, and morning before the storm. So where were the buses going to go????????? Why didn't you force evacuation? Well, gee, it's man's nature to disbelieve how bad something is going to truly be when looking into the jaws of death. It's like smokers, you smoke there's a very very strong chance you will die, but until most smokers hit a wall and realize how bad that death will be they tempt fate. Same can be said with storms, noone who stayed truly knew how bad it would be so they took their chances to stay where they knew. There were those that couldn't be evacuated, the infirmed and poor with no means of transportation, but again, by the time you loaded them, they'd be on death trains. And how can you force evacuation if you cannot transport every last person out? And having heard some of the people before, I can understand their thinking... "everything I know is here, I'll take my chances." And again as human nature we don't think how truly bad something will be until it happens. Why didn't the governor/Bush have troops down there BEFORE the storm? Can you imagine the outcry as our men and women in the service got ordered down there to their deaths? Come on this isn't even a realistic complaint, yet I've heard it. Why didn't we get in there sooner and help? We helicoptered people off roofs, but the city was underwater, what could have been done FEMA did prevent (supposedly) that is not finger pointing that is putting blame where blame truly should be. Supposedly, there were the Carnival liners that were willing to hold people, there were first responders ready to get in, trucks ready with water and food that were stopped before they could deliver. And I yelled as loud as anyone, why aren't we getting the materials there.... now the passion has subsided and logic is prevailing. With the liners, how were the people going to get there? Even though the streets were 8 feet under, the liners couldn't come that far in. So you had to lifeboat people.... and again it comes to how did you decide who, and surely with this you are seriously going to have riots and quite possibly see people destroy the very boats there to help them. With the supplies that were coming in..... they would have only gotten so far and again as we saw with the looting, I am more of the belief riots would have occured and you would have seen people fighting and getting killed trying to help others because it was impossible to help everyone. Which again leads to the "how did you decide who to help and why didn't you help these people over here?" Even with logical and pure fact answers people would still claim those facts were all wrong and you didn't help over there for this reason or that. In conclusion, noone wants to see Bush fall more than I do. But this isn't the thing to get him on. Nor should the GOP be trying to get the Dems, the mayor nor Governor. It's pathetic the talking heads and partisans have turned this into not just finger pointing but political holy war. There was NOTHING either side could have done. I am not trying to defend anyone, I am trying to end the partisan bullshit and the finger pointing so that we can help these people in the best and united ways possible. We can't blame anyone, for noone has been through anything like it before, and training and hypotheticals are just those.... I truly don't believe anyone was prepared or knew how to handle it and I don't believe anyone would ever have had that knowledge. We just need to go in and continue doing what we have, doing the best we can to help as many as we can and to rebuild a better and stronger city. Now we have experienced worst case and now we can truly be prepared...... until the next worst case comes through.... but even then we have a better starting point IF WE LEARN FROM THIS AND STOP POINTING FINGERS. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 09-13-2005 at 03:41 PM..

09-13-2005, 06:32 PM	#119 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	One of the top priorities this country needs to have is a complete reorganization of FEMA similar to what Clinton did in the early 90s. Somebody needs to take a list of all FEMA employees, go down that list and get rid of every single political appointee, and replace them all with experts with the best credentials they can find. Then they need to make a list of all the internal bureaucratic regulations the agency has to follow, and go down the list and get rid of 90% of them. Then they need to make the head of the agency directly answerable to the president. That's basically what Clinton and Lee Witt did, and the results were obvious. The agency won the 1996 Public Service Excellence Award, mainly due to its praised responses to the Midwestern floods of 1993 and the Oklahoma City bombing. Bush's mistake was to sink the agency back into a bureacratic swamp after 9/11, after using it as a dumping ground for unqualified political appointees. That's exactly the same shape it was in back when his dad was president, and Hugo and Andrew and the Loma Prieta California earthquake hit. After Hugo hit South Carolina, the governor of South Carolina Ernst Hollings called FEMA a "sorry bunch of bureaucratic jackasses." After the earthquake, Congressman Norman Mineta said FEMA "couldn't manage a two-car parade." After Andrew, the Wall Street Journal ran a story saying FEMA was beyond repair and should be dissolved entirely. Then came Clinton's reorganization, which made the agency not only functional, but award-winning. I don't think there's any doubt anymore that a similar revamping is needed now -- there will be another terrorist attack, and there will be another San Francisco earthquake, and there will be more hurricanes.