No end to War in sight may take years - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 06-27-2005, 12:48 AM

So we have a grossly underfunded troop base, a cutting of Vets benefits and recruitment way down, causing troops to go over longer and more often than they should.

And yet there is no end in sight. Sounds to me like we'll be seeing a draft real fast. A draft the Right continuously denied would ever be needed, and yet if recruitment falls below reenlistment, or pressure to end the war gains momentum a draft will be necessary.

We were lied to about vets benefits, the reason for war, we were lied to about how long it would last and soon we will be lied to about a draft.

The news for this administration keeps getting worse and all they can do is question Dem patriotism and flatly call Dems. supporters of the terrorists.

Think they'll ever address underfunding and undersupplying troops while Haliburton makes billions?

Think they'll ever come up with a truly good reason why 1/3 of military bases need closed (during a time of war)?

Think they'll ever come up with true reasons why they can't honor Veteran's benefits?

I don't, I think based on their past actions they will continue to question Dem patriotism and flatly call Dems. supporters of the terrorists. And keep "religion and class hatred" on the forefront thinking they'll keep getting elected by them.

I have news, you're closing in on 2,000 US troop deaths, and an admittance of no foreseeable ending, plus all the other things I have above posted....
they better hope the bullying, patriotism quetioning and "religious and class" warfare keeps working.

Quote:

link:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._mi_ea/us_iraq

Rumsfeld: Iraq Insurgency Could Last Years By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 33 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Insurgencies can go on for years, but the violence ravaging Iraq will eventually be quelled by homegrown forces rather than U.S. and other foreign troops, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld says.

The violence could even worsen as Iraqi officials draft a constitution and Iraqi citizens prepare to install a new government by the end of the year, Rumsfeld said in television interviews Sunday.

He and other senior military officials asked Americans to be patient and support their troops as the war progresses.

"It ebbs and flows," Rumsfeld told "Fox News Sunday." "The progress on the political side is so threatening to the insurgents that my guess is it could become more violent between now and the constitution referendum and the election in December."

Deadly attacks are a daily reality in Iraq, where an Associated Press count through Sunday showed 1,736 U.S. troops killed.

"That insurgency could go on for any number of years. Insurgencies tend to go on five, six, eight, 10, 12 years," Rumsfeld said. "Coalition forces, foreign forces are not going to repress that insurgency. We're going to create an environment that the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces can win against that insurgency."

The latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll shows public doubts about the war reaching a high point — with more than half saying that invading Iraq was a mistake.

Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, appealed for public support of the soldiers and their mission. "We don't need to fight this war looking over our shoulder worrying about the support back home," he said on CNN's "Late Edition."

The Sunday Times of London reported that U.S. officials recently met secretly with Iraqi insurgent commanders north of Baghdad to try to negotiate an end to the bloodshed.

Speaking generally, Rumsfeld told NBC's "Meet the Press" that those kind of meetings "go on all the time" and that Iraqis "will decide what their relationships with various elements of insurgents will be. We facilitate those from time to time."

Abizaid said U.S. and Iraqi officials "are looking for the right people in the Sunni community to talk to ... and clearly we know that the vast majority of the insurgents are from the Sunni Arab community. It makes sense to talk to them."

Echoing Rumsfeld, Abizaid made clear that "we're not going to compromise" with Iraq's most-wanted terrorist, Jordanian-born Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The contacts, the two said, were intended to make it easier for the Shiite-led government to reach out to minority Sunnis.

The strength of the violent opposition to the U.S.-led coalition since the invasion in March 2003 has raised questions about whether the Bush administration understood such a sustained reaction was possible.

Sen. Carl Levin (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, senior Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he and other critics of President Bush's Iraq policy are determined to show their support for U.S. troops. At the same time, he said, "we're also determined to be constructive critics of the policies which not only sent them there, as unequipped, and without international support, and without plans for the aftermath."

Before the war, Vice President Dick Cheney predicted that Iraqis freed from Saddam Hussein's rule would greet Americans as liberators. Rumsfeld said Sunday he gave Bush a list of about 15 things "that could go terribly, terribly wrong before the war started."

He said they included Iraq's oil wells being set on fire; mass refugees and relocations; blown-up bridges; and a moat of oil around Baghdad, the capital.

"So a great many of the bad things that could have happened did not happen," Rumsfeld said.

Asked if his list included the possibility of such a strong insurgency, he said: "I don't remember whether that was on there, but certainly it was discussed."

Rumsfeld said Iraq's security forces have gained respect among Iraqis. He suggested insurgents' ability to kill in large numbers did not indicate a decline in public support for efforts by the U.S. and Iraqi governments or that political, economic or security progress has been lacking.

stevo · 06-27-2005, 07:17 AM

I didn't know the news that the war would last years is new news. I (and I thought most everyone) was at least under the assumption that troops would be needed in Iraq for at least a decade. When did anyone ever say it would take shorter? Thats one reason there has been no timeline proposed, ever. If anyone thought we'd be out of iraq before 2010 they're fooling themselves.

Ballzor · 06-27-2005, 07:50 AM

What scale are you running on here man, War's last for a long fucking time. Lifetimes. And as of right now I see no reason to get all excited about a draft. But what do I know. o wait

Hardknock · 06-27-2005, 09:06 AM

A draft is inevitable at this point. This will be another lie to add to the list of lies pushed upon us by this corrupt administration. The American public is finally starting to wake up and see the realities of this war and bush is now getting nervous. He's even going to go on TV tomorrow and try to sell the war yet again, hoping to fool people again with "it's for the security of the US and the world" "We needed to get rid of saddam" "We'll still find those WMD's someday." And the sad part is, that people will actually believe it. It the president on TV!!! "He'd never steer us wrong", "he's looking out for us!" they'll say.

When this draft actually happens, and people start having their children taken away from then and those children actually start dying for nothing, I think that then you'll see a very concerned public about the administrations intentions and their actions.

Charlatan · 06-27-2005, 09:16 AM

The administration will avoid the draft at all costs... but will keep at the war as long as it continues to keep them in power.

stevo · 06-27-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardknock

A draft is inevitable at this point. This will be another lie to add to the list of lies pushed upon us by this corrupt administration. The American public is finally starting to wake up and see the realities of this war and bush is now getting nervous.

The american public is not starting to wake up. If anything, they are starting to fall asleep. They think because it has taken longer than a season of TV that its taken too long. Short attention spans dominate.

Ustwo · 06-27-2005, 10:56 AM

The 'war' is over.

It is now a police action, dealing with terrorist groups.

I hope we never have US troops out of Iraq. I want big ass air bases and a nice friendly western friendly democratic government.

samcol · 06-27-2005, 11:00 AM

I thought that after the Saddam's capture, and the election, things would start to fall into place. Instead things have gotten much worse with still no end in sight. We have a real mess to deal with now. I really have no idea what's going to happen. Draft, Pullout, or continue to do the same thing which isn't improving. All options seem bad.

Hardknock · 06-27-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The 'war' is over.

It is now a police action, dealing with terrorist groups.

I hope we never have US troops out of Iraq. I want big ass air bases and a nice friendly western friendly democratic government.

So that means you'll sign up right?

I hear they're looking for doctors...

pan6467 · 06-27-2005, 11:49 AM

You just have to love these people who keep wanting their tax cuts and turning blind eyes to what is happening in the war and at home to our soldiers and vets, because of those tax cuts. And then to really cut to the bone say they want this war to last years.

It's our generation's Vietnam. no matter when we leave (and we will have to) the people are going to take control and rule how they want. By us favoring one sect over another is doing nothing to help matters. What we are doing right now in Iraq is promoting hatred and more and more insurgency.

You can only blame the Dems for so much, they aren't the ones in power cutting the benefits, underequipping, undersupplying the troops.

Perhaps, if these neo-cons want the war so bad they would be willing to have their taxes raised to fund this war properly? But I have yet to see one say that they would.

samcol · 06-27-2005, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

You can only blame the Dems for so much, they aren't the ones in power cutting the benefits, underequipping, undersupplying the troops.

But you can definetly blame them for going along with the war and taking a very weak stance against this administration. If I disagree with Bush should I support what the Democrats are not trying to stop. Democrats are just as guilty in my opinion.

pan6467 · 06-27-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

But you can definetly blame them for going along with the war and taking a very weak stance against this administration. If I disagree with Bush should I support what the Democrats are not trying to stop. Democrats are just as guilty in my opinion.

A valid point.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is they have been bullied into submission. If they speak out they have to put up with Rove, Limbaugh, Fox, Robertson's 700 Club and so on telling us all how unpatriotic they are and how they do not support the troops.

And as I linked on another thread, when you have a GOP congressman tell the AF Academy that the GOP withheld benefits because the Dems wanted rules to protect non Christians (i.e. hate crimes) from being harassed in the military, and that congressman gets applause...... something is seriously wrong and we need to find out what.

On the other hand many are starting to come forward and speak out. Hopefully this trend will continue.

But ultimately, the PEOPLE need to speak out and develop a unified stance. It's easy to say, the Dems are just as bad, but if they are being battered by Fox News, Limbaugh, Rove, Pat Robertson's 700 Club and so on and the people who support them remain quiet out of fear, then the ones yelling loudest are going to win.

You can only fight so long and so hard without any support before you start to wonder if anyone even truly cares.

What is important is showing your support. Don't sit and say "what's the point both parties are equally to blame." Instead, show support, physically by going to rallies for people who speak out or by just an e-mail to let them know what they say is appreciated. That support helps those fight and stay strong.

powerclown · 06-27-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The 'war' is over.

It is now a police action, dealing with terrorist groups.

I hope we never have US troops out of Iraq. I want big ass air bases and a nice friendly western friendly democratic government.

Here, Here!

And throw in a couple DisneyWorlds and Six Flags Baghdad while you're at it!!

The 2012 Olympics in sunny, metropolitan Fallujah!!

samcol · 06-27-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Here, Here!

And throw in a couple DisneyWorlds and Six Flags Baghdad while you're at it!!

The 2012 Olympics in sunny, metropolitan Fallujah!!

Hey Rush has some new Club Gitmo clothing for sale as some kind of sick joke. Must be a fun place to visit.

http://store.rushlimbaugh.com/

Ballzor · 06-29-2005, 10:41 AM

Unless there is some major development in either the Iraq or Afghanistan conflicts, then there will be no draft. All of this news of hightened tensions between Iran and North Korea is largely created by the media. Bush wouldnt do it even if he wanted to. He knows what he can get away with and this wouldnt fly no matter how you look at it. sO if were past bunkering down for another world war, I fail to see any threat of a draft. Word on the blogs says Canada is ready for war. Thats about all I need, who's with me.

martinguerre · 06-29-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

When did anyone ever say it would take shorter? Thats one reason there has been no timeline proposed, ever.

* Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: "It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."

That's 2003.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm

I'm sorry, but a timetable *was* proposed in selling this war. it was not decades.

roachboy · 06-29-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

from ustwo:
The 'war' is over.

It is now a police action, dealing with terrorist groups.

I hope we never have US troops out of Iraq. I want big ass air bases and a nice friendly western friendly democratic government.

Quote:

from powerclown:
Here, Here!

And throw in a couple DisneyWorlds and Six Flags Baghdad while you're at it!!

The 2012 Olympics in sunny, metropolitan Fallujah!!

Quote:

cited by samcol
Hey Rush has some new Club Gitmo clothing for sale as some kind of sick joke. Must be a fun place to visit.

http://store.rushlimbaugh.com/

never let it be said that conservatives are impeded in any way by good taste.

Willravel · 06-29-2005, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

never let it be said that conservatives are impeded in any way by good taste.

Just be glad we haven't been accoused of being anti-christian!!

This war will continue until the oil dries up and our intersts lie elsewhere. At that time, well pull out and the Middle East will become one of the most peaceful places in history.

pan6467 · 06-29-2005, 02:59 PM

I always believed we were supposed to go over take out Saddam train the Iraqis send in diplomats and officials to help them set up a democracy and leave.

Nowhere did I ever hear BEFORE the election that this war would last for years and years. Or that our troops would have to pay for their own gear as Haliburton makes billions and Bush gets billions and billions of funding for the war. Where is the money going?

Are you GOP'ers sending your tax cuts to the troops to buy their gear for them????

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 03:04 PM

The Pentagon has requested the names and addresses from the public schools for all students approaching 18 years of age. It is said this is to give recruiters an better chance at meeting enlistment goals. It sounds like a violation of privacy rights to me, and strikes me as more than a little desparate. I agree with others who have said that reinstituting the draft cannot be sold to the American people. How will the Pentagon maintain the military size needed, if not the draft?

Ustwo · 06-29-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

The Pentagon has requested the names and addresses from the public schools for all students approaching 18 years of age. It is said this is to give recruiters an better chance at meeting enlistment goals. It sounds like a violation of privacy rights to me, and strikes me as more than a little desparate. I agree with others who have said that reinstituting the draft cannot be sold to the American people. How will the Pentagon maintain the military size needed, if not the draft?

Not going for a tangent, but there is no right to privacy.

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Not going for a tangent, but there is no right to privacy.

I would welcome the tangent, if you would care to explain why there is no right to privacy. But I didn't start this thread, so I will defer to the author of the topic.

jorgelito · 06-29-2005, 03:34 PM

Obviously we need to up the incentives. How about better pay, properly equiped soldiers for the field, real veteran's benefits for a start. A draft doesn't make sense (to me at least), just go back to our roots: capitalsim and free markets.

If you up the pay and benefits while being truthful about length of duty, you will have your pick of the litter. If we need more officers, likewise, offer college students or whatever elites we have seious bonuses.

It's silly how we need to recruit but aren't willing to pay for it. Well, we get what we pay for.

How do we pay for it? Clean up Congress. Trim the fat. Any company that beneifts from contracts in Iraq should help defray the costs. Also what happened to all the oil money that was going to pay for the war? Maybe the Defense Department is due for an audit. There has to be waste there.

There is no right to privacy. I know it seems weird but it's nowhere to be found on the Constitution. I think the Founding Fathers at the time were more concerned with property rights, taxes. Also, I'm not sure privacy was a big concept back then, especially given the Puritan (Protestant?) propensity to be involved on one another's affairs. Again, I'm not too sure, but this is what I rememebr from American Government class (a long time ago). I believe it was common for people to peek in on their neighbors and "tattle" if they weren't in church etc. At least in the New England region.

Ustwo · 06-29-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I would welcome the tangent, if you would care to explain why there is no right to privacy. But I didn't start this thread, so I will defer to the author of the topic.

If you would care to point me to the documents which give us a right to privacy, I will happily stand corrected. We NEED a right to privacy, but we do not have one.

roachboy · 06-29-2005, 05:51 PM

i would be interested in seeing how you understand this right to privacy, why it does not exist and what you think should happen, ustwo: could you generate another thread please, should you be so inclined?

samcol · 06-29-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To me this seems like a privacy right. I have the right to not be harrassed by the government unless I've suspected of wrong doing. The government asking schools for names and addresses of people under 18 seems like a direct violation of that agreement.

powerclown · 06-29-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

never let it be said that conservatives are impeded in any way by good taste.

Curious remark from one who invokes the race card when describing the conservative ideology as a whole.

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

To me this seems like a privacy right. I have the right to not be harrassed by the government unless I've suspected of wrong doing. The government asking schools for names and addresses of people over 18 seems like a direct violation of that agreement.

The Pentagon is actually asking for the above names under 18. Adults, legally defined as over 18 years can enter into a contract which is required for entering military service. I think the military recruiting officers are attempting to promote military service to young teens (under 18).

Added: And many thanks to the post on privacy rights.

tecoyah · 06-29-2005, 06:34 PM

What purpose could the above post possibly serve in forwarding this discussion.

None

If you decide to bait anyone else in here.....I will happily give vacation time.

Roachboy was Just as Bad as Powerclown in this

Get with the program guys

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 06:45 PM

Dang, Tecoyah. Another yellow warning, because I am the "above post?" What the hell did I do now?

Can't we be just a little clearer about breaking the rules of etiquette here?

tecoyah · 06-29-2005, 06:48 PM

Directed towards the powerclown post above you.....and Roachboy above that

I suppose I will begin to use the member names, and call people out

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 06:52 PM

Please point out any negative reference I have made to Powerclown. I don't recall ever making one and I don't find one here.

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 06:54 PM

Sorry, I'm too literal. Wouldn't it be easier to just say..."Bubba" that remark is uncalled for?

Willravel · 06-29-2005, 07:19 PM

The war will last for many years, and there are other posts for privacy.

Any thoughts on the remark about the war taking years and it's implications?

Elphaba · 06-29-2005, 07:29 PM

Will, I think we must undo the damage we have done. The mistakes made in this Iraqi adventure are beyond count, but I sincerely believe we need to put in place "something" that prevents a civil war. Spoken like a true Polyanna.

pan6467 · 06-29-2005, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

To me this seems like a privacy right. I have the right to not be harrassed by the government unless I've suspected of wrong doing. The government asking schools for names and addresses of people under 18 seems like a direct violation of that agreement.

It is very much a Constitutional right to privacy.

But the Right in all their zealousness and blindness will throw out any Constitutional rights the administration deems as helping the terrorists. Funny how they scream about the SC ignoring the Constitution but will ignore it themselves if it does not benefit their needs.

Hell, it's just a matter of time before the government starts telling kids if the don't enlist they are helping the terrorists and if their parents tell them not to enlist to turn them over as giving aid and comfort to terrorists.

pan6467 · 06-29-2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The war will last for many years, and there are other posts for privacy.

Any thoughts on the remark about the war taking years and it's implications?

I see in our future as stated above, enlistment hitting lows, re-enlistment almost forced because voluntary will be low. And the government telling the kids that if they do not enlist they are not true Americans and if their parents tell them not to enlist, to turn their parents in as terrorist accomplices.

I also see the economy and job sector getting worse and worse, so that joining the military is about the only way to earn a living and be able to afford anything (albeit still not very much).

pan6467 · 06-29-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Will, I think we must undo the damage we have done. The mistakes made in this Iraqi adventure are beyond count, but I sincerely believe we need to put in place "something" that prevents a civil war. Spoken like a true Polyanna.

Civil war in Iraq is going to happen the minute we leave, no matter what we do.

Ustwo · 06-29-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Civil war in Iraq is going to happen the minute we leave, no matter what we do.

I also hear that the Japanese will never accept a republic form of government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It is very much a Constitutional right to privacy.

I must have missed that in my reading of the constitution, could you point it where it is?

The 'right' to privacy has been even asserted by courts but there is no such right anywhere to be found in either it or the bill of rights.

pan6467 · 06-29-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I also hear that the Japanese will never accept a republic form of government.

Big difference, they attacked us and we won. Plus, after the war we helped them rebuild we didn't destroy their sovereignty at any time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I must have missed that in my reading of the constitution, could you point it where it is?

The 'right' to privacy has been even asserted by courts but there is no such right anywhere to be found in either it or the bill of rights.

Really? So the government can tap our phones for no legal reason, have cameras in our homes, can come into our homes at any time and search it without cause, talk to our coworkers and have them spy on us, and so on and we have no right to stop them?

06-27-2005, 07:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I didn't know the news that the war would last years is new news. I (and I thought most everyone) was at least under the assumption that troops would be needed in Iraq for at least a decade. When did anyone ever say it would take shorter? Thats one reason there has been no timeline proposed, ever. If anyone thought we'd be out of iraq before 2010 they're fooling themselves. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

06-27-2005, 09:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The administration will avoid the draft at all costs... but will keep at the war as long as it continues to keep them in power. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-27-2005, 10:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The 'war' is over. It is now a police action, dealing with terrorist groups. I hope we never have US troops out of Iraq. I want big ass air bases and a nice friendly western friendly democratic government. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

06-27-2005, 11:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	You just have to love these people who keep wanting their tax cuts and turning blind eyes to what is happening in the war and at home to our soldiers and vets, because of those tax cuts. And then to really cut to the bone say they want this war to last years. It's our generation's Vietnam. no matter when we leave (and we will have to) the people are going to take control and rule how they want. By us favoring one sect over another is doing nothing to help matters. What we are doing right now in Iraq is promoting hatred and more and more insurgency. You can only blame the Dems for so much, they aren't the ones in power cutting the benefits, underequipping, undersupplying the troops. Perhaps, if these neo-cons want the war so bad they would be willing to have their taxes raised to fund this war properly? But I have yet to see one say that they would. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-29-2005, 02:59 PM	#19 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I always believed we were supposed to go over take out Saddam train the Iraqis send in diplomats and officials to help them set up a democracy and leave. Nowhere did I ever hear BEFORE the election that this war would last for years and years. Or that our troops would have to pay for their own gear as Haliburton makes billions and Bush gets billions and billions of funding for the war. Where is the money going? Are you GOP'ers sending your tax cuts to the troops to buy their gear for them???? __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-27-2005, 09:06 AM	#4 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	A draft is inevitable at this point. This will be another lie to add to the list of lies pushed upon us by this corrupt administration. The American public is finally starting to wake up and see the realities of this war and bush is now getting nervous. He's even going to go on TV tomorrow and try to sell the war yet again, hoping to fool people again with "it's for the security of the US and the world" "We needed to get rid of saddam" "We'll still find those WMD's someday." And the sad part is, that people will actually believe it. It the president on TV!!! "He'd never steer us wrong", "he's looking out for us!" they'll say. When this draft actually happens, and people start having their children taken away from then and those children actually start dying for nothing, I think that then you'll see a very concerned public about the administrations intentions and their actions.

06-27-2005, 11:00 AM	#8 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I thought that after the Saddam's capture, and the election, things would start to fall into place. Instead things have gotten much worse with still no end in sight. We have a real mess to deal with now. I really have no idea what's going to happen. Draft, Pullout, or continue to do the same thing which isn't improving. All options seem bad.

06-29-2005, 03:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	The Pentagon has requested the names and addresses from the public schools for all students approaching 18 years of age. It is said this is to give recruiters an better chance at meeting enlistment goals. It sounds like a violation of privacy rights to me, and strikes me as more than a little desparate. I agree with others who have said that reinstituting the draft cannot be sold to the American people. How will the Pentagon maintain the military size needed, if not the draft?

06-29-2005, 03:34 PM	#23 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Obviously we need to up the incentives. How about better pay, properly equiped soldiers for the field, real veteran's benefits for a start. A draft doesn't make sense (to me at least), just go back to our roots: capitalsim and free markets. If you up the pay and benefits while being truthful about length of duty, you will have your pick of the litter. If we need more officers, likewise, offer college students or whatever elites we have seious bonuses. It's silly how we need to recruit but aren't willing to pay for it. Well, we get what we pay for. How do we pay for it? Clean up Congress. Trim the fat. Any company that beneifts from contracts in Iraq should help defray the costs. Also what happened to all the oil money that was going to pay for the war? Maybe the Defense Department is due for an audit. There has to be waste there. There is no right to privacy. I know it seems weird but it's nowhere to be found on the Constitution. I think the Founding Fathers at the time were more concerned with property rights, taxes. Also, I'm not sure privacy was a big concept back then, especially given the Puritan (Protestant?) propensity to be involved on one another's affairs. Again, I'm not too sure, but this is what I rememebr from American Government class (a long time ago). I believe it was common for people to peek in on their neighbors and "tattle" if they weren't in church etc. At least in the New England region. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

06-29-2005, 05:51 PM	#25 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i would be interested in seeing how you understand this right to privacy, why it does not exist and what you think should happen, ustwo: could you generate another thread please, should you be so inclined? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-29-2005, 06:34 PM	#29 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	What purpose could the above post possibly serve in forwarding this discussion. None If you decide to bait anyone else in here.....I will happily give vacation time. Roachboy was Just as Bad as Powerclown in this Get with the program guys __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 06-29-2005 at 06:47 PM..

06-29-2005, 06:45 PM	#30 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Dang, Tecoyah. Another yellow warning, because I am the "above post?" What the hell did I do now? Can't we be just a little clearer about breaking the rules of etiquette here?

06-29-2005, 06:48 PM	#31 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Directed towards the powerclown post above you.....and Roachboy above that I suppose I will begin to use the member names, and call people out __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 06-29-2005 at 06:53 PM..

06-29-2005, 06:52 PM	#32 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Please point out any negative reference I have made to Powerclown. I don't recall ever making one and I don't find one here.

06-29-2005, 06:54 PM	#33 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Sorry, I'm too literal. Wouldn't it be easier to just say..."Bubba" that remark is uncalled for?

06-29-2005, 07:19 PM	#34 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The war will last for many years, and there are other posts for privacy. Any thoughts on the remark about the war taking years and it's implications?

06-29-2005, 07:29 PM	#35 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Will, I think we must undo the damage we have done. The mistakes made in this Iraqi adventure are beyond count, but I sincerely believe we need to put in place "something" that prevents a civil war. Spoken like a true Polyanna.