DO YOU LIKE DISCUSSING POLITICS?!? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

irateplatypus · 05-29-2005, 06:04 PM

although the poster using the handle "Politics" was rightfully banned, i did think he had a valid point. it's hard to swallow Halx enforcing the rules from a "it's MY board" sort of view when it's clear that donations from a wide-range of users keep this place afloat. you can't have it both ways... either you have the complete authority to do what you like because it belongs to you, or you cede that in some ways when you are the steward of other's resources.

either way, the mods get my thumbs up as far as being responsive to my queries and moderating justly.

however, i'm w/Halx on the broader issue... the board has become silly. my interest has wained dramatically as of late. every post seems to require pages of disclaimers to fend off the petty remarks. it has devolved into a juvenile sort of word combat rather than serious discussion.

even so, thanks to halx and the mods for the time they put in.

pan6467 · 05-29-2005, 07:30 PM

To be quite honest, I love discussing politics and am very passionate and work very hard to temper myself. I do admit I get carried away and have become irrational. But I also am tired of being considered left on every post and having to argue my beliefs and not discuss the topic. I also deem it unnessecary to have an opinion on every thread.

As for the mods, I think all of them are very tolerant and I have yet to see a locked thread or banning that wasn't deserved or forewarned. I know I have been warned a few times and they never once stated it was because of my opinion but rather because of my ACTIONS. And I thoroughly respect them all, because the ones who have posted to me have never once attacked me personally or treated me in any way other than very respectfully.

Anyway, I also believe that when you have national talking heads that believe good radio and television is to bring every issue to left or right and that "if you don't see it their way then you are a fascist or a pinko" there is no in between and it has caused problems in our government in many ways, finger pointing, hatreds, accusations and so on. Even when agreement between parties is reached these talking heads spend hours on spewing hate and how you don't compromise. But politics is compromising esp here in the USA. It's all about compromising, that's the only way to protect freedom of any kind.

This anger carries down to all who follow politics and there are many who believe you have to attack the political view and person in order to "win". That is what society has come to. And when people see the media and persons they "respect" resort to attacks they feel that must be the way to be heard.

Overall though, the politics discussed here is far more civil and understanding than in other forums.

I have no idea what my point was....... carry on mods and Hal thank you for creating a great site.

Dopamine · 06-05-2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Well guess what. If you guys don't shape up, you're not going to be able to do so any more.

THE POLITICS BOARD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU TO POST SHORT, ANGSTY QUIPS ABOUT YOUR STUPID, REDUNDANT POINTS THAT HAVE BECOME CLICHES AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF REPETITION!

ALSO, THE POLITICS BOARD IS NOT *YOUR* BOARD - IT IS *MY* BOARD. THAT MEANS YOU DO NOT GET TO BE OFFENDED BY SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-SPOKEN POLITICAL VIEWS AND RESPOND WITH NOTHING BUT VITRIOL AND A SMUG, IMMATURE DISGUISED INSULT.

Listen up, people. The TFP has come this far on a few principles... respect your fellow member's opinions and contribute to a discussion with an intelligent response. It can do nothing but good if you do this. If you are NOT willing to do this - if you are NOT willing to come to the politics board with an OPEN MIND - if you are NOT willing to DISCUSS politics rather than PREACH them - GET THE FUCK OUT!

Also, I'm sick and tired of you so-called "mature adults" (I think that is what you claimed to be when you submitted your account information to become a member) finding my moderators to be biased and incapable of doing their job. Your complete bullshit over the last few months is making them not want to even touch this board. As a result, you're just shitting in your own seat. My moderators do a damn fine job. I watch what they do and I'm impressed with their ability to put aside their own political views to view situations with a clear mind. They are fucking wonderful people. If you can't appreciate these people taking time out of their day to put up with your completely juvenile bickering, once again, GET THE FUCK OUT.

Figure it out, smart guys.

I really have absolutely no idea if "your" moderators are biased or incapable of doing their job. I rarely see "your" moderators doing much of anything. But I am quite certain (and your blistering attempts at denial and vehement criticism of "your" members does not change my perception) that your moderators are fallable. As much as you might like to believe in the chaste honesty of "your" moderators, you need to fucking open your eyes - or at the least, don't chime in with such bullshit about how well you watch them and how brilliant they are. You have atleast one moderator who has control issues. Maybe you have other moderators who have other issues - but I haven't been directly affected by them so I can't possibly know. When a moderator finds it appropriate to make a statement such as "I discount your reading of my post" and then not accept the only proper response to such drivel: "I discount your denial of my reading of your post", you have a moderator who needs to chill the fuck out and wake up to the reality that he is not god's gift to political discourse. When you have a moderator who consistently responds to members with the word "Nonsense" you have a moderator who is clearly incapable of respect - yet one who requires legions of it in return. He is not the beginning and end of discussion simply because he wants to be the beginning and end of discussion. And you have this moderator, Halx. He is yours.

You'd like to blame the membership - but that's just your excuse for your failings and "your" moderators failings. When "your" moderators can't set examples, and when YOUR response to the failings of political discourse is this completely immature, overtly hostile thread opener - it is clear where the fault lies. You alienate your membership. "Your" moderators goad your membership.

This post is what you ask for when you start a thread in this way. You exemplify everything you claim to dislike. Maybe if you hadn't contradicted yourself so effectively in a single post, a response along the lines of roachboy's would have been more in order - the primary aspect of his post being the idea that moderators taking such an active role in the discussions should not be moderating the discussions. Seems so obvious and mature to consider it - why does it take a lowly member to mention it? Shouldn't the almighty brilliance of the owner or his moderators have been capable of recognizing it's importance? One would expect. But hey, even that won't stop "your" moderators from retribution. Or maybe because they're "your" moderators, I'm supposed to believe they are incapable of that. Yeah. Right.

I wish I could have appreciated your forums. Unfortunately, you and "your" moderators are incapable of leading.

Fortunately, membership in Halx's Holy Forums is not the pinnacle of achievement in life.

Good luck to you, Halx. You need it.

Sweetpea · 06-05-2005, 10:03 PM

Dopamine, you only have one post. and you just joined in june 2005 . . . how do you know so much about TFP and our mods then, you've learned all of this in a couple days????

Just let it go man. You said your peice, now stop haressing people on this site.

Sweetpea

Lebell · 06-05-2005, 10:04 PM

Dear dear,

Such anger dispite the fact that the unnamed mod never ever censored you or banned you inspite of the "in your face" attitude you showed him...it took you mouthing off to another mod to get permenantly banned.

Oh well, the unnamed mod can still ban your clone.

Sweetpea · 06-05-2005, 10:16 PM

good grief, i can't believe he's still so angry . . . over a online politics discussion board!
I can't fathom holding onto that kind of anger for any period of time . . . I'm thinking perhaps a mental imbalance is at play here.

Sweetpea

Finn · 06-05-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Dear dear,

Such anger dispite the fact that the unnamed mod never ever censored you or banned you inspite of the "in your face" attitude you showed him...it took you mouthing off to another mod to get permenantly banned.

Oh well, the unnamed mod can still ban your clone.

Nonsense.

I discount your blatant lies.

You did ban me - you even stated precisely that. I was banned for "piling on" to a member. (Never could figure that one out, considering I was the first to respond to the member, but hey, I'd never accuse you of being logical.)

As for the permanent ban - I have no clue how that came about. I had over 700 posts on TFP, was given a week ban for an innocuous post, reported the ban with the incredulity it deserved and found two weeks later that my account was permanently banned. I suppose that was justified through someone's whim. Who knows. Kill the members, I say! Considering the ridiculous actions that pass for moderation around here (and end up getting praised), I'm not suprised. Your claim that I "mouthed off" to a moderator is aparently born of your fanciful imagination - that same place where you found "nonsense" and "I discount you" to pass for acceptable TFP contribution. Prior to the post you just responded to, I'd never mouthed off to anyone, moderator or member, here on TFP.

spectre · 06-05-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finn

Nonsense.

I discount your blatant lies.

You did ban me - you even stated precisely that. I was banned for "piling on" to a member. (Never could figure that one out, considering I was the first to respond to the member, but hey, I'd never accuse you of being logical.)

As for the permanent ban - I have no clue how that came about. I had over 700 posts on TFP, was given a week ban for an innocuous post, reported the ban with the incredulity it deserved and found two weeks later that my account was permanently banned. I suppose that was justified through someone's whim. Who knows. Kill the members, I say! Considering the ridiculous actions that pass for moderation around here (and end up getting praised), I'm not suprised. Your claim that I "mouthed off" to a moderator is aparently born of your fanciful imagination - that same place where you found "nonsense" and "I discount you" to pass for acceptable TFP contribution. Prior to the post you just responded to, I'd never mouthed off to anyone, moderator or member, here on TFP.

The sad thing is, you continually harass and blame the wrong person. I made the decision and I pulled the trigger. I honestly don't care what anyone's political preferences are. You shit on the board and got a week ban to calm down. Instead you sign back up just to shit on it again. You can keep up this "poor me, I'm being oppressed and censored" bullshit if you want, but it's just that, bullshit.

And if it's so fucking terrible here, why the hell do you keep coming back?

</end rant>

aKula · 06-06-2005, 03:41 AM

I'm upset that manx is banned, I liked reading his arguments. Don't know why he signed up as politics and wrote that rant, of course I understand why has been permanently banned now.

pan6467 · 06-06-2005, 04:57 AM

Knowing now that this was Manx, I had to look over what he was banned for, just for curiousity. (I do think that there was a true animosity towards a mod that went deeper than just the board.)

What I cannot understand is how after the banning someone made a joke of it and is still here. I would think that would be lower and more petty than whatever the banning was over because that is a definitive mockery and personal attack.

Just my opinion.

SecretMethod70 · 06-06-2005, 05:09 AM

Believe it or not, we typically end up giving people many chances before permanently banning them - perhaps more than we should. The person you speak of may still be around, but you do not know what kind of things went on behind the scenes regarding him/her (i.e. warnings, etc).

pan6467 · 06-06-2005, 06:46 AM

I understand, just I thought that was a blatant and classless act.

Lebell · 06-06-2005, 07:48 AM

pan, I really honestly don't know if you are talking about me or not, but I'll go ahead and answer as if you are.

I know that I can have a temper as well as an overly sarcastic streak in me, and I also know that have shown it on this board.

When I have done so I have tried to publically recognize it as well as appologize for it, even to people that I privately may not care for, even Manx.

BUT I have also gone out of my way to avoid the apperance of letting my personal feelings dictate how I mod a board, and I feel that I have been mostly successful. In the case of Manx, I took far more abuse from him than I would take from anyone in normal circumstances, so much so that other mods were surprised and offered to ban him for me.

No, it took him being repeatedly rude to other posters for him to earn a 7 day temp ban (which I did indeed issue). Others, both to the left and right, have recieved the same stepwise warnings/bannings and are still here. But Manx had to sign up as another user to bitch about it. This is why he was permanently banned.

But like an angry child, he can't stay away.

So if you are talking about me making a joke of him, I'm sorry, but you'll have to live with that. I didn't make a joke out of him, he did it himself with this sort of behavior.

pan6467 · 06-06-2005, 07:57 AM

No Lebell, it wasn't about your comments. You are human and the guy was pushing your buttons, I thought you handled it quite well and maturely. And I also know that he is continuing this and it is sad that someone takes it so far and so personally without taking responsibility for self.

My post dealt with another and just because I found it distasteful doesn't mean that it is.... let's face it I am sometimes overly sensitive

, and I shall end it at that.

Valens · 06-06-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

No, it took him being repeatedly rude to other posters for him to earn a 7 day temp ban (which I did indeed issue). Others, both to the left and right, have recieved the same stepwise warnings/bannings and are still here. But Manx had to sign up as another user to bitch about it. This is why he was permanently banned.

Replaced with this......as we will do to all worthless, bitching pointless stabs at each other. Period.

I so wish it didnt come to this....I really do

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 05:35 PM

I'm sorry to see Manx go.

I liked his intelligent posts immensely, and I generally found his arguments well structured and logical.

Oh well. I guess we'll have to do with petty name calling, as that's what the PB is descending into these days. It's got worse the few months I was away.

Mr Mephisto

By way of example, I had to stop and think for about five minutes before hitting the Post button, as I almost expect to be warned or banned for simply writing the above statements. This is not a good thing.

SecretMethod70 · 06-06-2005, 05:40 PM

To be honest Mephisto, I really have no idea why you'd expect to be warned or banned for basically echoing what Halx has said. Tilted Politics has degraded into name calling rather than actual discussion. It's a problem and it needs to stop.

As for Manx's posts, yes, many of them were intelligent. It's a shame that so many also had other issues. You don't get to see what we remove from the board, but his behavior now should give a clear indication that there was plenty of UNintelligent posting as well.

Lebell · 06-06-2005, 05:40 PM

Mr Mephisto,

Unfortunately while Manx was intelligent and could be well spoken, he was part of the name calling problem.

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

To be honest Mephisto, I really have no idea why you'd expect to be warned or banned for basically echoing what Halx has said.

Because it sometimes appears as if dissension is cause for warning or banning.

But no matter. Let's move on.

Mr Mephisto

SecretMethod70 · 06-06-2005, 06:12 PM

Appears is the operative word. (Normally I'd agree with moving on, but I think this is an important point to make here.) Let me give you the typical anatomy of a banning...

User in a post: [some mild flaming comment]
Mod to user in PM: this is a warning, don't do that again
User a few weeks later (hopefully): [slightly more significant flame]
Mod to user: I warned you, stop or else further action will be taken
User to mod: [personal attack on mod, combined with accusation of mod bias]
(let me take the moment to point out the humorous fact that just about every mod that has been accused of mod bias has been accused of being so by BOTH sides, and this includes mods that don't even participate in Tilted Politics for all intents and purposes)
Mod to user: [gives some sort of temporary ban]
At this point, one of two things typically occurs..
1) User: [re-registers under a different name and decides to crap all over the boards]
or 2) comes back after temporary ban, reforms for a short while until it all starts again from the beginning. Eventually we just get sick of working with people like this.

You see, it appears sometimes that people are banned after only making some mild flame or dissention on the forums. The truth is, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that leads up to a banning, and I've even left out all the discussion between mods. Few permanent bans occur without discussion among the mods, lest you think these are unilateral decisions by some "biased" mod. Most users take option number 2 at the end, and the process occurs about 4 or 5 times before a banning is made permanent. Naturally, this is just a generalization...lots of users skip the temporary bannings and just temporarily reform after warnings many times...but, again, after giving someone 8 warnings, it becomes pretty clear that the person is not going to stop.

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 06:25 PM

Hence my emphasis on appears.

I have never accused mods of being biased. But, if you honestly want my opinion, I agree with Manx's assertion that mods for the PB should not participate in the threads. If a mod is interested in posting to the PB, then I think they should not be a mod for the PB. Just seems like common sense to me.

Either way, my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed. If there was another side to him that I didn't see, well then... think about it. I didn't see it.

Mr Mephisto

smooth · 06-06-2005, 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=Mr Mephisto]my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed.[QUOTE]

Cynthetiq · 06-06-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Hence my emphasis on appears.

I have never accused mods of being biased. But, if you honestly want my opinion, I agree with Manx's assertion that mods for the PB should not participate in the threads. If a mod is interested in posting to the PB, then I think they should not be a mod for the PB. Just seems like common sense to me.

Either way, my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed. If there was another side to him that I didn't see, well then... think about it. I didn't see it.

Mr Mephisto

That sounds like sound advice, and I'll accept that challenge. I recently felt difficulty moderating a thread I had posted in, this will help remove that conflict. I have recently posted about some of the challenges I find in engaging in such discourse. Instead of posting I will merely read and edjucate myself silently.

Thus I will tread the PB and no longer post in any threads.

Thank you for helping see that direction.

tecoyah · 06-06-2005, 07:27 PM

As will I...........

Ustwo · 06-06-2005, 07:41 PM

If the mods can't handle posting and moding they shouldn't be mods as they lack the needed ability to detach themselves.

Likewise if the posters will automaticly assume that because a mod disagrees with them politically they therefore think the mod is biased, they need to take a break from the PB.

Of all my time here my harshest warning has been from Art, and he and I are pretty close politically.

In fact I'd much rather have involved mods on both sides then someone who never posts out of the blue comming in bitching about a thread. You have no idea if they know the history of the posters involved and I'd be much more worried about them making a rash and unfair judgement.

This is a message board, not a court of law, we don't have to worry about conflict of interest to such a degree.

shakran · 06-06-2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

That sounds like sound advice, and I'll accept that challenge. I recently felt difficulty moderating a thread I had posted in, this will help remove that conflict. I have recently posted about some of the challenges I find in engaging in such discourse. Instead of posting I will merely read and edjucate myself silently.

Thus I will tread the PB and no longer post in any threads.

Thank you for helping see that direction.

I don't think that's a necesssary direction Cynthetiq. Most of you mods were made such at least in part because of the quality of your posts. Why lose that quality just because you're mods?

Seems to me you can take part in the debates and still restrain the idiots from being offensive.

jorgelito · 06-06-2005, 08:52 PM

Is there anyway to maybe just be "temporarily banned" from the Politics Board"? Kind of like a time-out. You know there are so many other threads out there I often "ban" myself from Politics and go hang out in Humor, Sports, sometimes Willravel's threads in Paranoia! There's so many other coolthreads to explore (one of the best parts of TFP). Then I take a peek back at Politics with a "refreshed/renewed" spirit and perspective.

Oh yeah, the T***y Board is always a nice break too!

Meph, I know what you mean, sometimes I hesitate and feel uncomfortable for fear of being banned or warned for posting my opinions. It's like walking on eggshells aroung here. I also feel like lately, it's gotten really cliquey and people gang up on others for their opinions and then turn around and say, "hit the back button if you don't like what I'm saying." There was even one mod who told us to "shut the fuck up" because of our opinions expressed (we were in no way out of line by the way). That's hardly encouraging free debate. It's not a nice feeling.

However, I do appreciate and understand the mods clarification in explaining how things work. COmmunication is always good.

Alot of people have disappeared from the Politics Forum lately too. It's a shame.

Well, guys, it's our board too so it's up to ourselves to contribute content and hold each other accountable. I remember one of the TFP's mantras, "you get as much out of it as you put in."

So come on everybody, let's jump in the pool!

dy156 · 06-06-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

My thoughts exactly. I also dropped off the scene, more or less, for about six months.

Mr Mephisto

Wow, my thoughts exactly you two. I was fairly active until about November of last year, then suddenly quit caring so much about politics, which was one of the primary reason I used to come here besides well, the boobs. I even switched from talk radio to sports talk radio. Just got burned out on politics after the election, and maybe I'm not alone.
If Superbelt, Mr. Mephisto, and Dr. Ustwo have been gone, but are now planning on being around a bit more, maybe it will subtly encourage others to post more like what I was accustomed to seeing here. Hope so. This forum used to be very unique. (and for awhile there I was looking at several political forums) The internet has exacerbated the "Balkanization" of society (damn that sounds terribly cheesey) in the sense that people flock to their interests. Most people interested in one thing or another share similar viewpoints, and forums tend to reflect this, with a few rabid minorities trying to stir things up. TFP politics was different in that is was a large cross section of society sharing only the common trait of being at least initially interested in boobs and being marginally internet savvy. Therefore you got a balanced debate from people that were more open-minded than average, and it was, I thought, pretty cool. I sure hope that it has not gone too far downhill, but it sounds like it took several steps back if there was talk of shutting down the forum.
I guess, thankfully, it seems from this thread that in my absence I may not have been missing out on all that much, and instead am catching the politics board on an upswing.

Hardknock · 06-06-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Because it sometimes appears as if dissension is cause for warning or banning.

But no matter. Let's move on.

Mr Mephisto

Wait a minute. This does matter. If people are having the preconceived notion that if they dissent from the majority opinion in a discussion that they will be subject to get a warning/ban from this site then I think that the opinions of people are being restricted. From what I've seen so far, I'd even go as far to say that they were being censored just because they disagree from the majority. Yes, there is a way to have an intelligent discussion or even an argument without resorting to name calling but when people feel that they can't express their opinions for fear of being banned then I think that's a problem.

SecretMethod70 · 06-07-2005, 12:12 AM

You're right...and that's why I responded to dispel that myth

Ustwo · 06-07-2005, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dy156

Wow, my thoughts exactly you two. I was fairly active until about November of last year, then suddenly quit caring so much about politics, which was one of the primary reason I used to come here besides well, the boobs. I even switched from talk radio to sports talk radio. Just got burned out on politics after the election, and maybe I'm not alone.

Laugh I did exactly the same thing, including the talk radio bit, I switched to sports and figured if something important enough to matter happened, they would break into the news.

Saddly with the restricted access the boobs are far more limited these days but I'll stick around politics for a bit.

host · 06-07-2005, 06:16 AM

I have been around the block a few times, and my observation, as a student of U.S. history and from first hand, close up, life experience, as a politically active and opinionated U.S. resident, is that these are the most polarized and politically charged days that I have lived through. There is a lot at stake, including policies that are determining whether there will continue to be a "middle" economic class of signifigant size, and whether the Bill of Rights will afford us any of the protections, in the coming years, in a way that can be recognized as comparable to our understanding of these "inalienable" rights enjoyed (and possibly taken for granted), in the past. Part of the difference of opinion is the reaction, appropriately bordering on outrage, of those who believe that warrantless searches, called 'sneak and peak" invasions of the residences of private citizens, and other searches that formerly required warrants signed by judges, but now approved, and then carried out, only by the officials in law enforcement and other government investigative units, who deem them necessary and appropriate, vs. those who are satisfied that the change is necessary and the risk of placing the protection of the individual against the risk of unreasonable search, in the hands of the searchers themselves, instead of in the hands of an impartial member of the judiciary, is acceptable. This is a big leap, and some defend it as necessary, and seem to communicate a belief that the fury exhibited by the incredulous and concerned opposition, is as alarming an issue as the enabling and permitting of policies of warrantless searches, are, themselves.

The reaction by the defenders of, and those unconcerned about the new search policies, is to sometimes accuse the outraged opposition of being "unpatriotic" or "un-American", for posting opinions and descritptions of what the process of weakening the Bill of Rights actually amounts to.

In the 60's, there were enough signs that there was cause for concern, that everyone was, by and large, concerned. There were race riots in major cities, assassinations of prominent advocates for social and political change, and some weeks, 500 or more U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam and many of the dead and wounded were pictured on tv, as they were carried from battle. The poor and disenfranchised in society were largely not disputed to be in such circumstances.

Now we seem to live in political crosscurrents where some actually either believe that many of the issues and controversies, even some of the ones that are of grave concern to some of us who post on these threads, literally matters that will determine the future structure of our government, our laws, our health, and the state of our economy, and our environment, are not controversies or problems at all, certainly nothing rising to the state of the alarm and attention that we afford to them.

Very curious and troubling times, aggravated by an explosion of information and sources of it. Those who are old enough can remember when there were three tv networks for the news, and one news anchor of such stature, that if he proclaimed something to be so, it was. Lyndon Johnson, almost immediately after Walter Cronkite, in early 1968, declared on tv that the war in Vietnam was no longer "winnable", withdrew his candidacy for a second full term as president.

Well,,,,we no longer have, real or imagined, any arbiter of issues of the influence that Cronkite once wielded. We have only our own opinions these days, and it shows. We foist them on each other here, and it gets heated, because some of us
are very concerned about the future, others less so, and still others, frustrated by our inability to perceive current trends as positive developments that are progressing in the correct direction.

We do not "settle" anything here. Our interaction seems to strenghten our resolve. This is a politics discussion board. It needs to be a DMZ, and that is about all that the majority of us can agree on. My goal here is to do the best that I can to justify the opinions that I convey here with the most unimpeachable and verifiable sources of information that I am able to locate and point others to. I am engaged in a learning process here, and I hope i can recognize and learn from others here who are also trying to discern what it is that is really going on in America today. This is a process of determining what ideas and policies to support or oppose, who the advocates are of the ideas and policies, and to what degree it is appropriate for oneself to support of oppose them.

Some principles and beliefs are worth risking life or limb to support or to oppose. American adults are skillful in demanding those kinds of commitments of people in other parts of the world, and of our own young countrymen who are influenced to serve in our military. As dependent as we are finding ourselves on the enduring value of our paper currency and on a petroleum supply that we no longer own or control, all of us have more weighty matters to concern ourselves with than most of the matters that attract the most attention and participation in this politics forum.
Please consider getting back to the other threads or starting new ones. I propose more participation on these threads by Halx and mods and administrators. These times are too troubling and challenging for anyone who could potentially participate to "opt out".

Redlemon · 06-07-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Either way, my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed. If there was another side to him that I didn't see, well then... think about it. I didn't see it.

I know what you mean. I used to think that way about a certain TFP Nonsense denizen whose username began with 'b'. He was banned a couple of times, but kept coming back with other usernames. Then I witnessed him 'crapping all over the board', as SM70 so elegantly put it. Sympathy gone.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a better way for the Mods to handle these problematic users than they are doing now.

Cynthetiq · 06-07-2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

I don't think that's a necesssary direction Cynthetiq. Most of you mods were made such at least in part because of the quality of your posts. Why lose that quality just because you're mods?

Seems to me you can take part in the debates and still restrain the idiots from being offensive.

I agree with that sentiment, but I personally found it difficult to straddle the line in this one thread.

The quality of my personal posts is not apparent in the politics thread at this time because I personally don't have enough information and counter information to engage in true meaningful debate, especially in very high level discourse of political philosophy.

My abstinence will help keep clarity and transparancy of moderating.

Maybe once I'm better versed in the topics and players I can also better moderate and direct discussions/debate to either conclusion or agree to disagree stalemate.

What seems to happen is that the agree to disagree stalemate comes to play not as often as it should and instead turns the thread into a quoting and counter quoting match of trying to show how stupid or idiotic the other person is.

EULA · 06-07-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

Listen Jackass, you got the rights to express your opinion. Just make sure your opinion doesn't infringe on others. Just make sure your opinion is expressive and thoughtful.

Someone please explain to me how an opinion can infringe on someone else.

I thought we would just skip the moral outrage and moral relativism stages and go straight to semantic twig-tweaking.

archer2371 · 06-07-2005, 09:00 PM

The politics board was actually the thing I liked most about what the TFP had to offer. I don't post very often anymore, mainly because I'm over at a political simulation site and I am usually putting fires out somewhere that effects my character and by the time I get to the TFP, I've generally already read the stories, commented on them, argued about them and exhausted my mental capacity to deal with partisan bickering in the General Discussion board of the Gov Sim site I'm on. So I just read through, and just take-in what's going on. Then I usually head over to Entertainment and Gaming to get the happenings in those realms. I still like the TFP and enjoy hearing many views from many different people, so for even those of us that are qualified "lurkers" now, we still appreciate what goes on here. I know that a few of the views of TFP members on here have been well represented on the Gov Sim site that I play on. As to the moderators, they're fair, I've never seen them overstep their bounds and even go against their own opinions to make decisions, I applaud y'all's work.

Slavakion · 06-08-2005, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

Someone please explain to me how an opinion can infringe on someone else.

I thought we would just skip the moral outrage and moral relativism stages and go straight to semantic twig-tweaking.

I think what feelgood meant was that you are allowed to have an opinion. As long as it's not "Fuck you! [political person] is such a [communist/nazi] and deserves to die! And you do too for supporting him/her! Argakfgafgkasdgfkj!!!"

05-29-2005, 06:04 PM	#41 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	although the poster using the handle "Politics" was rightfully banned, i did think he had a valid point. it's hard to swallow Halx enforcing the rules from a "it's MY board" sort of view when it's clear that donations from a wide-range of users keep this place afloat. you can't have it both ways... either you have the complete authority to do what you like because it belongs to you, or you cede that in some ways when you are the steward of other's resources. either way, the mods get my thumbs up as far as being responsive to my queries and moderating justly. however, i'm w/Halx on the broader issue... the board has become silly. my interest has wained dramatically as of late. every post seems to require pages of disclaimers to fend off the petty remarks. it has devolved into a juvenile sort of word combat rather than serious discussion. even so, thanks to halx and the mods for the time they put in. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

05-29-2005, 07:30 PM	#42 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	To be quite honest, I love discussing politics and am very passionate and work very hard to temper myself. I do admit I get carried away and have become irrational. But I also am tired of being considered left on every post and having to argue my beliefs and not discuss the topic. I also deem it unnessecary to have an opinion on every thread. As for the mods, I think all of them are very tolerant and I have yet to see a locked thread or banning that wasn't deserved or forewarned. I know I have been warned a few times and they never once stated it was because of my opinion but rather because of my ACTIONS. And I thoroughly respect them all, because the ones who have posted to me have never once attacked me personally or treated me in any way other than very respectfully. Anyway, I also believe that when you have national talking heads that believe good radio and television is to bring every issue to left or right and that "if you don't see it their way then you are a fascist or a pinko" there is no in between and it has caused problems in our government in many ways, finger pointing, hatreds, accusations and so on. Even when agreement between parties is reached these talking heads spend hours on spewing hate and how you don't compromise. But politics is compromising esp here in the USA. It's all about compromising, that's the only way to protect freedom of any kind. This anger carries down to all who follow politics and there are many who believe you have to attack the political view and person in order to "win". That is what society has come to. And when people see the media and persons they "respect" resort to attacks they feel that must be the way to be heard. Overall though, the politics discussed here is far more civil and understanding than in other forums. I have no idea what my point was....... carry on mods and Hal thank you for creating a great site. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-05-2005, 10:03 PM	#44 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	Dopamine, you only have one post. and you just joined in june 2005 . . . how do you know so much about TFP and our mods then, you've learned all of this in a couple days???? Just let it go man. You said your peice, now stop haressing people on this site. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" Last edited by sweetpea; 06-05-2005 at 10:09 PM..

06-05-2005, 10:04 PM	#45 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Dear dear, Such anger dispite the fact that the unnamed mod never ever censored you or banned you inspite of the "in your face" attitude you showed him...it took you mouthing off to another mod to get permenantly banned. Oh well, the unnamed mod can still ban your clone. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-05-2005, 10:16 PM	#46 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	good grief, i can't believe he's still so angry . . . over a online politics discussion board! I can't fathom holding onto that kind of anger for any period of time . . . I'm thinking perhaps a mental imbalance is at play here. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

06-06-2005, 03:41 AM	#49 (permalink)
aKula Psycho	I'm upset that manx is banned, I liked reading his arguments. Don't know why he signed up as politics and wrote that rant, of course I understand why has been permanently banned now.

06-06-2005, 04:57 AM	#50 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Knowing now that this was Manx, I had to look over what he was banned for, just for curiousity. (I do think that there was a true animosity towards a mod that went deeper than just the board.) What I cannot understand is how after the banning someone made a joke of it and is still here. I would think that would be lower and more petty than whatever the banning was over because that is a definitive mockery and personal attack. Just my opinion. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-06-2005, 05:09 AM	#51 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Believe it or not, we typically end up giving people many chances before permanently banning them - perhaps more than we should. The person you speak of may still be around, but you do not know what kind of things went on behind the scenes regarding him/her (i.e. warnings, etc). __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-06-2005, 06:46 AM	#52 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I understand, just I thought that was a blatant and classless act. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-06-2005, 07:48 AM	#53 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	pan, I really honestly don't know if you are talking about me or not, but I'll go ahead and answer as if you are. I know that I can have a temper as well as an overly sarcastic streak in me, and I also know that have shown it on this board. When I have done so I have tried to publically recognize it as well as appologize for it, even to people that I privately may not care for, even Manx. BUT I have also gone out of my way to avoid the apperance of letting my personal feelings dictate how I mod a board, and I feel that I have been mostly successful. In the case of Manx, I took far more abuse from him than I would take from anyone in normal circumstances, so much so that other mods were surprised and offered to ban him for me. No, it took him being repeatedly rude to other posters for him to earn a 7 day temp ban (which I did indeed issue). Others, both to the left and right, have recieved the same stepwise warnings/bannings and are still here. But Manx had to sign up as another user to bitch about it. This is why he was permanently banned. But like an angry child, he can't stay away. So if you are talking about me making a joke of him, I'm sorry, but you'll have to live with that. I didn't make a joke out of him, he did it himself with this sort of behavior. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-06-2005, 07:57 AM	#54 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	No Lebell, it wasn't about your comments. You are human and the guy was pushing your buttons, I thought you handled it quite well and maturely. And I also know that he is continuing this and it is sad that someone takes it so far and so personally without taking responsibility for self. My post dealt with another and just because I found it distasteful doesn't mean that it is.... let's face it I am sometimes overly sensitive , and I shall end it at that. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-06-2005, 05:35 PM	#56 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	I'm sorry to see Manx go. I liked his intelligent posts immensely, and I generally found his arguments well structured and logical. Oh well. I guess we'll have to do with petty name calling, as that's what the PB is descending into these days. It's got worse the few months I was away. Mr Mephisto By way of example, I had to stop and think for about five minutes before hitting the Post button, as I almost expect to be warned or banned for simply writing the above statements. This is not a good thing. Last edited by Mephisto2; 06-06-2005 at 05:38 PM..

06-06-2005, 05:40 PM	#57 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	To be honest Mephisto, I really have no idea why you'd expect to be warned or banned for basically echoing what Halx has said. Tilted Politics has degraded into name calling rather than actual discussion. It's a problem and it needs to stop. As for Manx's posts, yes, many of them were intelligent. It's a shame that so many also had other issues. You don't get to see what we remove from the board, but his behavior now should give a clear indication that there was plenty of UNintelligent posting as well. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 06-06-2005 at 05:42 PM..

06-06-2005, 05:40 PM	#58 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Mr Mephisto, Unfortunately while Manx was intelligent and could be well spoken, he was part of the name calling problem. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-06-2005, 06:12 PM	#60 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Appears is the operative word. (Normally I'd agree with moving on, but I think this is an important point to make here.) Let me give you the typical anatomy of a banning... User in a post: [some mild flaming comment] Mod to user in PM: this is a warning, don't do that again User a few weeks later (hopefully): [slightly more significant flame] Mod to user: I warned you, stop or else further action will be taken User to mod: [personal attack on mod, combined with accusation of mod bias] (let me take the moment to point out the humorous fact that just about every mod that has been accused of mod bias has been accused of being so by BOTH sides, and this includes mods that don't even participate in Tilted Politics for all intents and purposes) Mod to user: [gives some sort of temporary ban] At this point, one of two things typically occurs.. 1) User: [re-registers under a different name and decides to crap all over the boards] or 2) comes back after temporary ban, reforms for a short while until it all starts again from the beginning. Eventually we just get sick of working with people like this. You see, it appears sometimes that people are banned after only making some mild flame or dissention on the forums. The truth is, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that leads up to a banning, and I've even left out all the discussion between mods. Few permanent bans occur without discussion among the mods, lest you think these are unilateral decisions by some "biased" mod. Most users take option number 2 at the end, and the process occurs about 4 or 5 times before a banning is made permanent. Naturally, this is just a generalization...lots of users skip the temporary bannings and just temporarily reform after warnings many times...but, again, after giving someone 8 warnings, it becomes pretty clear that the person is not going to stop. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 06-06-2005 at 06:16 PM..

06-06-2005, 06:25 PM	#61 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Hence my emphasis on appears. I have never accused mods of being biased. But, if you honestly want my opinion, I agree with Manx's assertion that mods for the PB should not participate in the threads. If a mod is interested in posting to the PB, then I think they should not be a mod for the PB. Just seems like common sense to me. Either way, my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed. If there was another side to him that I didn't see, well then... think about it. I didn't see it. Mr Mephisto

06-06-2005, 06:49 PM	#62 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	[QUOTE=Mr Mephisto]my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed.[QUOTE] __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

06-06-2005, 07:27 PM	#64 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	As will I........... __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

06-06-2005, 07:41 PM	#65 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	If the mods can't handle posting and moding they shouldn't be mods as they lack the needed ability to detach themselves. Likewise if the posters will automaticly assume that because a mod disagrees with them politically they therefore think the mod is biased, they need to take a break from the PB. Of all my time here my harshest warning has been from Art, and he and I are pretty close politically. In fact I'd much rather have involved mods on both sides then someone who never posts out of the blue comming in bitching about a thread. You have no idea if they know the history of the posters involved and I'd be much more worried about them making a rash and unfair judgement. This is a message board, not a court of law, we don't have to worry about conflict of interest to such a degree. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

06-06-2005, 08:52 PM	#67 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Is there anyway to maybe just be "temporarily banned" from the Politics Board"? Kind of like a time-out. You know there are so many other threads out there I often "ban" myself from Politics and go hang out in Humor, Sports, sometimes Willravel's threads in Paranoia! There's so many other coolthreads to explore (one of the best parts of TFP). Then I take a peek back at Politics with a "refreshed/renewed" spirit and perspective. Oh yeah, the T*y Board is always a nice break too! Meph**, I know what you mean, sometimes I hesitate and feel uncomfortable for fear of being banned or warned for posting my opinions. It's like walking on eggshells aroung here. I also feel like lately, it's gotten really cliquey and people gang up on others for their opinions and then turn around and say, "hit the back button if you don't like what I'm saying." There was even one mod who told us to "shut the fuck up" because of our opinions expressed (we were in no way out of line by the way). That's hardly encouraging free debate. It's not a nice feeling. However, I do appreciate and understand the mods clarification in explaining how things work. COmmunication is always good. Alot of people have disappeared from the Politics Forum lately too. It's a shame. Well, guys, it's our board too so it's up to ourselves to contribute content and hold each other accountable. I remember one of the TFP's mantras, "you get as much out of it as you put in." So come on everybody, let's jump in the pool!

06-07-2005, 12:12 AM	#70 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	You're right...and that's why I responded to dispel that myth __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-07-2005, 06:16 AM	#72 (permalink)
host Banned	I have been around the block a few times, and my observation, as a student of U.S. history and from first hand, close up, life experience, as a politically active and opinionated U.S. resident, is that these are the most polarized and politically charged days that I have lived through. There is a lot at stake, including policies that are determining whether there will continue to be a "middle" economic class of signifigant size, and whether the Bill of Rights will afford us any of the protections, in the coming years, in a way that can be recognized as comparable to our understanding of these "inalienable" rights enjoyed (and possibly taken for granted), in the past. Part of the difference of opinion is the reaction, appropriately bordering on outrage, of those who believe that warrantless searches, called 'sneak and peak" invasions of the residences of private citizens, and other searches that formerly required warrants signed by judges, but now approved, and then carried out, only by the officials in law enforcement and other government investigative units, who deem them necessary and appropriate, vs. those who are satisfied that the change is necessary and the risk of placing the protection of the individual against the risk of unreasonable search, in the hands of the searchers themselves, instead of in the hands of an impartial member of the judiciary, is acceptable. This is a big leap, and some defend it as necessary, and seem to communicate a belief that the fury exhibited by the incredulous and concerned opposition, is as alarming an issue as the enabling and permitting of policies of warrantless searches, are, themselves. The reaction by the defenders of, and those unconcerned about the new search policies, is to sometimes accuse the outraged opposition of being "unpatriotic" or "un-American", for posting opinions and descritptions of what the process of weakening the Bill of Rights actually amounts to. In the 60's, there were enough signs that there was cause for concern, that everyone was, by and large, concerned. There were race riots in major cities, assassinations of prominent advocates for social and political change, and some weeks, 500 or more U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam and many of the dead and wounded were pictured on tv, as they were carried from battle. The poor and disenfranchised in society were largely not disputed to be in such circumstances. Now we seem to live in political crosscurrents where some actually either believe that many of the issues and controversies, even some of the ones that are of grave concern to some of us who post on these threads, literally matters that will determine the future structure of our government, our laws, our health, and the state of our economy, and our environment, are not controversies or problems at all, certainly nothing rising to the state of the alarm and attention that we afford to them. Very curious and troubling times, aggravated by an explosion of information and sources of it. Those who are old enough can remember when there were three tv networks for the news, and one news anchor of such stature, that if he proclaimed something to be so, it was. Lyndon Johnson, almost immediately after Walter Cronkite, in early 1968, declared on tv that the war in Vietnam was no longer "winnable", withdrew his candidacy for a second full term as president. Well,,,,we no longer have, real or imagined, any arbiter of issues of the influence that Cronkite once wielded. We have only our own opinions these days, and it shows. We foist them on each other here, and it gets heated, because some of us are very concerned about the future, others less so, and still others, frustrated by our inability to perceive current trends as positive developments that are progressing in the correct direction. We do not "settle" anything here. Our interaction seems to strenghten our resolve. This is a politics discussion board. It needs to be a DMZ, and that is about all that the majority of us can agree on. My goal here is to do the best that I can to justify the opinions that I convey here with the most unimpeachable and verifiable sources of information that I am able to locate and point others to. I am engaged in a learning process here, and I hope i can recognize and learn from others here who are also trying to discern what it is that is really going on in America today. This is a process of determining what ideas and policies to support or oppose, who the advocates are of the ideas and policies, and to what degree it is appropriate for oneself to support of oppose them. Some principles and beliefs are worth risking life or limb to support or to oppose. American adults are skillful in demanding those kinds of commitments of people in other parts of the world, and of our own young countrymen who are influenced to serve in our military. As dependent as we are finding ourselves on the enduring value of our paper currency and on a petroleum supply that we no longer own or control, all of us have more weighty matters to concern ourselves with than most of the matters that attract the most attention and participation in this politics forum. Please consider getting back to the other threads or starting new ones. I propose more participation on these threads by Halx and mods and administrators. These times are too troubling and challenging for anyone who could potentially participate to "opt out".

06-07-2005, 09:00 PM	#76 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	The politics board was actually the thing I liked most about what the TFP had to offer. I don't post very often anymore, mainly because I'm over at a political simulation site and I am usually putting fires out somewhere that effects my character and by the time I get to the TFP, I've generally already read the stories, commented on them, argued about them and exhausted my mental capacity to deal with partisan bickering in the General Discussion board of the Gov Sim site I'm on. So I just read through, and just take-in what's going on. Then I usually head over to Entertainment and Gaming to get the happenings in those realms. I still like the TFP and enjoy hearing many views from many different people, so for even those of us that are qualified "lurkers" now, we still appreciate what goes on here. I know that a few of the views of TFP members on here have been well represented on the Gov Sim site that I play on. As to the moderators, they're fair, I've never seen them overstep their bounds and even go against their own opinions to make decisions, I applaud y'all's work. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."