Canada: Is the Gomery Inquiry going to bring down the Liberals?
 

I think it may be election time in Canada before too long...

Thumbing his nose at the publication ban, this blog gives details about John Brault's testimony at the Gomery Commission... when this breaks out it will bring down the government...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1376471/posts

What do you think?

Thanks Charlatan, I was looking for that since I heard the story on the CBC this morning.

More than likely this will lead to the end for the Liberals, which is too bad, as that means the Reform Party (call 'em what you like, but at the end of the day it's the reform party) will likely step to power. Farewell Canadian liberalisim. :(

I don't know... there are still a lot of people who don't trust the Conservatives... If they win, I see them in minority position... with the BLoc and NDP holding the balance of power.

Good god, I will honestly consider moving to a cabin in the woods for the duration of their mandate if the Conservatives under Stephen Harper come to power.

I am highly disappointed that the publication ban was broken... If this testimony becomes widespread, they won't be able to receive a fair trial. That's a charter right, no matter how corrupt or vile you are as a person.

I hate corruption more than I love liberalism....I hope they get tossed out.
A conservative minority gov won't be so bad

One really has to wonder of the Liberal mindset when the ON Liberals tried to factor in 12 years of cost savings into 1 year. I'm no economist/accountant but I even knew that they can't do that. I just wonder how stupid they think we are?

So now what the !@#$% do we (the voters) do??? The last thing I want is another election. I couldn't vote for Mr Harper's kind of intolerance but neither could I reward the liberals with yet another four years to squander our money.

Let's start by throwing the corrupt bastards in jail. Then let's start a new party with Mr Harper's fiscal policies and Mr Martin's social policies.

The saddest part is that even this is all smoke and mirrors to what really goes on in Canada. The real movement of money in this country never sees the front page of any newspapers.

If there's another election, I'll be living in a strong Conservative riding instead of my pleasant NDP riding where I go to school.

Makes me sad... There really isn't a good choice for Canadians who want responsible government.

Here is the actual blogger how is breaking the publication ban... his blog contains new info as well as his rationalizations for breaking the ban... It looks like Brault's testamony is starting to show there were links to the current Martin regime...

My disgust with this scam was reserved for the previous administration... but now it is looking like the dry rot is in the LIberals through and through...



http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Will it bring them down? ultimetly I suppose it depends on Ontario, as always. They're probably all but done in Quebec, the West will go Conservative again.
It will probably be a minorty Conservative Goovernment, the only question will be if it's a 2 party minority or a 3 party.
Personally, I wanna see a Conservitive minority, with a green party combination for a majority, but it ain't gonna happen unfortunetly..

In other news, BC Conservative MP being investigated for asking for $100,000 "bonds" from constituents requesting immigration assistance...

Not to butt in, but this is interesting to me.

Having never really paid attention to Canadian politics, this and a previous thread have caught my interest (previous thread = the one about political identification in Canada).

This statement really stood out here:
Having read this story earlier in the week, I am confused about Canadian control over the media.

It seems that the Canadian gov't has the power to control the media, right?

According to Ace_O_Spades this is a good thing? Or am I reading his statement wrong?

How could a media ban on something like this be a good thing?

Obviously, I look at this from our standpoint, where, if our gov't put a total media ban on any subject/story/issue, pretty much the whole country would get seriously pissed. I know the gov't tries to kill stories when it fits their need, but I don't see them as capable of putting a complete ban in place, nor do I see a complete ban being successful.

Can you enlighten me on this?

I think there should be criminal trials starting right from Jean Chretien and going down the ladder. The utter misuse and defrauding of Canadian taxpayers money is nothing short of pathetic.

And for what? To keep Quebec from pooh poohing about how they are distinct and not treated as such. Poor babies. Let's up the yearly Official Bilingualism tab from 1 billion to 2 billion so as enough Kleenix is available for those whose crocodile tears are flooding the St. Lawrence.

Like I said in another thread, maybe one day some politicians won't succumb to be blackmailed by language and the bullshit notion that Quebec is distinct and different from everyone else will cease. I've been across this country more times than I can remember and every PROVINCE is distinct and it's inhabitants are all EQUALLY Canadian.

As for an election. I really don't care anymore. I said last summer if after a decade of corruption, the Liberals still win, I'll never vote again. I don't know if I will or not. Since the norm from the top down to be corrupt, lie, steal etc,..as our government does, I'm thinking why not get a piece of the pie myself. Every year I pay enough in taxes to buy a brand new car, and not a piece shit either. I'm fed up and then to add to my consternation I look at the idiots who are in line to run the country. Wonderful.

But it won't change. The Liberals are the victims now and I'm sure that will bode well for them. Boo hoo hoo. But I can't place all the blame on them. They are afterall, elected democratically by the citizens of this country. It's to bad so many Canadians don't give a shit about their money being wasted. I wish I had that much so as not to give a shit too.

I must agree with this.

Reading the link is enough to make you sick. Thanks Charlattan by the way.

I have always respected Paul Martin's ability to run the country in an efficient manner and keep the spending under control. I don't think he was involved with this. I am sure that Chretien was the man behind it all and he should be tried in a criminal court (maybe he could bring a few golf balls for good measure.)

BUT, the liberals have become so accustomed to power that they feel that they can operate with impunity. I can't accept that they think that they are above the law of what's right and wrong, and clearly that has become the case with them. The time has come to teach the liberals that their days of operating the country like their own little fifdom have come to a screaching end.

If Mike Harris was at the helm of the Conservatives, I would vote for him in a second.

But Harper? I'd sooner just not vote.

You aren't quite understanding this... The US has in camera sessions all the time... from GWBush being question by the 911 commision to grand jury hearings.

The Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka trial had a publication ban for a number of reasons, the main one was to protect the victims.

I don't have a problem with this at all.

In this case, I am truly mixed about the ban. The sessions in question are open to the public, anyone can go to the sessions and watch. You can tell people about it but you just can publish this information... at this time. The ban will be lifted at some point in the future (most likely when Brault and Guite's court cases occur). The concept is that getting this information out to a broad public will taint the population base and an unbaised jury will be difficult to find.

My issue is the same as the blogger's... this is IMPORTANT information. The Public is not stupid. They do not need to be sheltered and can be responsible jurors even with foreknowledge.

It's a court ordered media ban, not a government ordered ban (no such thing). The ban is set to allow the charged a fair trial (no stories on the news that could taint a potential juror's thinking).

O.K., so it is basically the same thing as a "gag order" for us.

I didn't catch the "court-ordered" part.

According to Todays News... The Conservatives are actually planning for the election...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ery050409.html

as the stomach turns

If this link doesn't work just go to www.cbc.ca it is in the headlines for today April 9th

GRRR, if they call an election then the gay marriage legislation gets wiped off the slate.

I guess that's ONE way for the Conservatives to push their religious agenda... If you can't stop progress, you can at least subvert it.

BINGO!

I beleive that you have hit the proverbial "Nail" on the head!

RCALYRA...

Gay marriage may be one of the issues that keeps the population voting Liberal (or, NDP or Bloc)

Remember, even if there is an election, that does not mean we won't be in the exact same position again.

The current split in the house is
Liberals: 133
Conservatives: 99
Bloc: 54
NDP: 19
Independant: 2
Vacant: 1
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/ab...tandings-e.htm

Who can say how the seats will be split after the next election.

I hate to do the linkedy link, but here's some for thought:

http://erg.environics.net/imageLibra..._intention.gif

As well, this webpage has the more interesting things I want to bring up:
Politics Canada

If you take a look at the Politics Canada webpage, I want you to take a look at the polls on the left hand side. Scary eh? This Story from last week talks about how the Cons now have a 40% to 33% advantage over the Libs in Ontario.

Next comes the raining frogs. Then the rivers running of blood....

On a VERY interesting yet unlikely sidenote; many polls in there show the Greens getting a few seats. Now if people would just stick with their polling decisions and not throw their vote away at the polls, thinking it unlikely the party could follow through and win a seat...

Well, I don't think it is in the best interests of the PCs to call an election yet. The fact that they are planning for an election is just prudent given what is going on. Because they certainly couldn't stop one if the Libs called one early.

I'm at the point that I'd vote for anyone other than the Libs. Given what I have read there is NO WAY I could vote for them. If they get re-elected after this, all accountability will be gone. And in my mind, that would be worse than Mr Harper's band of merry men.

As I understand it, this is a moot point, as many provinces have already decided to allow gay marriage. Or I could be wrong.

well, that's where most of the people live which is what counts in a democracy.

I don't think it's odd to have a Ontario voting Conservative. We had the PCs in power for 8 years during the '90's (after getting burned by the liberals and the NDP) and in the '70's to '80's it was Bill Davis' & company Big Blue Machine that held power for so long.

Actually, about 1/3 of the people of Canada live in Ontario. Another 1/4 live in Quebec.

So, without significant Ontario or Quebec support, you cannot form a majority government in Canada.

The Reform Party mark 3 has a history of villianizing Quebec that makes it hard for them to get Quebec support. The party currently dominant in Quebec has no interest in forming a federal party.

So, we have a situation where you need Ontario + 20% of the rest of the non-central parts of the country (ie, non-Quebec and non-Ontario) to form a majority government, from the perspective of parties that cannot aquire Quebec.

Now, this doesn't seem fair.

But, you could also get the non-central parts of the country, plus about 20% of Ontario, and form a majority government.

(the rest of the math relies on my 1/3 and 1/4 for Ontario and Quebec)

How do you think BC voters have felt forever?

The election is usually over before the BC polls even close

New Poll:

Liberals at 27% support: poll
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=topstories

From my point of view it was nice to see that testimony arose showing Jean Chretien actually made a personal call to an adfirm to solicite them to do whatever. It would make my year to see that asshole go to jail. Won't happen though. It would happen to me or you but not him. Some guy just following orders will take the fall.

Looks like the Libs are going down. I'd bet Chretien get's a boner at seeing Paul Martin going down the drain. I hope the drain is big enough for him and the rest of them too. Not gone and forgotten though. Gone and in jail just like you or me.

NDP minority gov't!

hey... I can dream.

It's becoming clear that the liberals are out very soon... I really would have liked to see the gay marriage legislation passed before they do though... con sarnit.

I said seem fair, not that it isn't fair.

A person's vote in BC is worth exactly the same as a person's vote in the maritimes, and more than a person's vote in Toronto.

Hey, I wanted bill C-38 passed before they disolved the last parliament. Then all this shit happens.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are very far from smokin' de herb with our gay spouse.

Maybe if we threatened to seperate (seriously) the feds will throw money at us, and stop taking us for granted.

Just a thought.

Ouch! that would hurt... I'm just getting my tax strategy under control.

yes. that doesn't seem fair at all. * shrugs * we get used to it tho.

No, that has only worked and will only work for one province. Name that province and I'll give you a bag of weed and introduce you to my gay sister.

The rest of us have to shut up and believe in the great Canadian way where we are all commoners and one group of people are distinct, whatever that means.

It's hard to decide whom to vote for or even if it is worth voting. If an election is forced, we will have to make decisions based on incomplete information from the inquiry. If we wait until the end, we may have to vote for Conservatives not unlike the ones who caused so many problems here in Ontario. We could of course vote for the party led by a man with a Col. Klink complex. It's hard being a passive Canadian at this point.

Nuts to this. I'm voting marijuana party next election!

Seriously, I don't like the options that remain. Martin's a wad, but the idea of Steve Harper in charge of our nation doesn't exactly give me a warm, fuzzy feeling either. Is it really so surprising that voter turnouts are so low these days? We don't have any particularly inspiring candidates to vote for.

On the bright side, at least we don't have to worry about Stockwell Day leading out nation anymore.

Is it Quebec?

So what do you want first? The dope or my sister?

Getting back to Gomery, if an election were called I still think the Fiberals would win. Radio, t.v., newspapers are all teething on the ever present complacency of Canadians. How could any righteous Canadian become tired and bored of our government wasting incredible amounts of money. It truely baffles me. And people continue to bring up Mulroney. What Mulroney did wasn't even a drop in the bucket compared with the Liberals. Maybe if Canadians had to pay back that money, their money that was wasted through successive scandals, they might have a more proactive sense of loss.

But not to worry. Jean Chretien will enter the scene, shut down the inquiry and most Canadians won't even notice since it will be summer and cottage country is the escape. Then next year, Paul will call an election and win, of course villifying the Tory's as Satan and Ontario will yet again, quiver in their boots, unwilling to change and will continue to invite Liberal ass raping because Paul says so,... just like the last election.

It's times like these that I long for a two party system with 2 consecutive mandates as prime minister then baa bye. And certainly the other party not representing itself as seperatists. Only in Canada I say.

For any of their crimes, the Liberals cleaned up public finance.

Going from a >60% debt-to-GDP ratio to a <40% debt-to-GDP ratio in 10 years is impressive. It isn't sexy, but it is important.

Today's news

Thu, May 5, 2005
http://www.ottawasun.com/


Whether he had anything to do with the scandal or not, I always wondered why an up and coming political star like Manley packed up and left. Time will tell I suppose either way.

But this

Seems Mr. Dithers has taken a page out of Chretiens book on how to be arrogant in all his uselessness. Hmmm, a man who promised to get to the bottom of the Liberal corruption now effectively and flippantly states basically 'who cares'. Very nice. Shows how much he gives a shit about this country. No worries though. If he loses the next election he won't stick around. He's got a shipping company to run that doesn't pay taxes in this country. Promises made,.......

The current polls put the Liberals ahead of the Conservatives... looks like the public listened to what Martin had to say in his TV address.

I don't think any of us want to go to the polls right away and many of us would rather wait for until Gomery has given his report. Why the rush? Punished now or next January doesn't matter to me. When I listen to the recordings of the Conservatives in Question Period all I can think is that sound like a bunch of illbehaved school children.

I agree with that but it's not just the Conservatives acting like children.

It's interesting though how public perception is so singlehandedly decided moment by moment. CTV Newsnet ran a clip the other day several times of the proceedings in the House. It went something like this.

(paraphrased)

Harper -- Can the Prime Minister tell us why he ran on election promises, promises that were first mentioned in his budget plan and now he has changed them to accomadate the NDP and his political will?

Martin -- Mr. Speaker, this is the same member of the opposition who supported our budget draft, and now he doesn't. Perhaps he should explain his motives to all Canadians on why he flip flopped on his opinion.

Hmmmm,....pot calling the kettle black, eh. Interesting too, the next day Liberal support shot up.

It's astonishing how a one minute clip can turn the tide in how people think. This clip ran on several other news stations as well. Global, CBC and even City T.V picked it up. But that's politics.

I see the whole deal with the NDP this way:

Conservatives withdraw their support in the belief they can force an election and win power.

NDP sees an opening to get some of their issues dealt with but offering support to the Liberals.

Liberals, eager to stay in power, take the deal.


Conservatives and Conservative voters, throw their hands up in disgust.

Small number of Liberal supporters shake their head and wait to see how this all plays out.

Larger number of Liberal supporters shrug and say, "This is how minority governments are supposed to work."

NDP voters agree that this is how minority governments are supposed to work and wish they had more seats so they could truly hold the balance of power.



The majority of people want Gomery to finish. Sure we are all pissed about this. But that is no reason to run off and hold an election (yes, I know Martin did last summer but technically he had no mandate and the commission had only just started - I see no reason to interrupt the inquiry at this time).

I guarantee if Harper forces the election now, it will jump up and bite him in the ass...

Yeah I agree with your analogies. Funny thing though, the major papers the other day were saying how Jack got duped by Martin because Martin's alleged billions in social policy promise will be open to legislation which in no way is that a solid commitment to it actually happening.

In other news, Harper and Duceppe are best buddies, again according to some media sources, and Stephen Harper will destroy Canada.

If an election were called now I don't think Harper will win. Martin has to cast him as the devil again and voila,... same old same old. It just burns my ass that so many people believe Martin is a poor hapless victim. Short memories and money to waste and burn we Canadians are a lot of.

On the upside the hundred million or so that was wasted in this scam pales in comparison to the billions other nations are spending on war...


While I don't like Harper at all, I can agree that there is some major spin doctoring going on. However, even without the spinning, I don't see the Conservatives winning any elections as long as Harper is the leader. He is Reform by anyother name and as a nation we don't generally support their social conservative platform and that isn't going to change any time soon.

In fact, it is why the spin doctoring is working so well.

Who Wins?
 

I am afraid that even if an election is forced on the Liberals the most we will accomplish is yet another minority government with the Bloc weilding more power!

The only ones to gain will be the seperatists!

It is a shame we have to have a country governed by a bunch of known criminals. :rolleyes:

I can't believe how complicated politics is getting. I think TFP should form its own government and run against the liberals. ;) You'd have my vote.

I don't think an election would do any good for anyone.

1) It will cost money, which would be better spent on things that Stephen Harper promised.
2) Liberals will have a minority again, with either the Bloc, or the Conservatives with more seats, leading to absolutely nothing being done. They couldn't even get a budget to pass. Thats why I "kind of" agree with the NDP siding with them.
3) Couldn't get a budget to pass before... what would happen if there was an election? Same thing, no budget.
4) Though I hate the liberals with passion and really don't care about the NDP, I like the budget that they have proposed. Hopefully it'll pass and the liberals will dig themselves into another big hole, and then hopefully the conservatives will win. And yes... I am being serious.

Thats pretty much what I have to say. In the west... Liberals=enemy, Conservatives=good guys. Sorry have to go with the good guys.

On the upside? C'mon Charlatan, you know better than that.

So we didn't waste billions going into war, namely Iraq. What difference does it make? Between the HRDC scandal and the Gun Registry, there's 4 billion wasted right there.

If you name 3 other Liberal scandals in the last 12 years that cost Canadians money, I'll meet you in T.O and buy you and your wife dinner. Or not.

I was sort being sardonic about it... looking for the tarnished silver lining as it were. :D

Believe me, I am no Liberal supporter... that said, I also remember that during the Mulroney years there was also a lot of corruption PLUS we had to deal with an ass like Mulroney. When it comes down to it, sadly, we have a choice between a corrupt Liberal government whose policies I, generally speaking, agree with OR a Conservative government whose policies I know I don't agree with (and who will very likely be just as corrupt in the long run)...

List of "scandals":

Pearson Airport - 800 million or so (technically just cleaning up PC messes)

Shawinigate - hundreds of thousands

The Mulroney Airbus thing - few hundred thousand to millions (but it would have been nice if it was true)

Employment Insurance - $40 billion in overbill never paid back (like any government would pay that back)

The cancelling of the Helicopters - $500 million

Martin's untendered shipping contracts - $161 million


There are more to be sure...

Adrian Clarkson romping the globe with her artist freinds to the tune of millions out of the taxpayers' pockets

Parrish, who has called Americans "bastards" and referred to Americans who support the missile defence program as the "coalition of idiots," was videotaped stomping on a doll of Bush for the television program, This Hour Has 22 Minutes.

Jean Chretien's top aide, Francoise Ducros, calls U.S. President George Bush as "a moron."

Feel free to add to the list

That's not technically a Liberal scandal... it's a GG scandal.

Personally, I think what she was doing is a good thing. If we are going to have a GG let's use it to help promote Canada. In the case of her tour of Scandinavia I think we need stronger ties to the other northern nations. We share a lot with them:

landscape
weather
political ideology (i.e. we are socially progressive)
We even share a border with them (at the pole).

We should have stronger cultural and business ties to them as well...

I added a few

A good portion of the world already thinks that Canada is a great country. Canada needs promoting inside Canada to keep people here.

That being said, I don't think that her trips are a bad idea, I just think that they are way too lavish. And considering what else the money can be used for I think that restraint on her part and a little push back on the part of the government would not be a bad idea.

These didn't cost us money so I didn't mention them... well they didn't directly cost us money. They just annoyed the US administration at a time when they wanted us to be boosters and so they prolonged the softwood lumber and beef trade issues (personally I think it just gave them an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway).

I was just adding to the list of scandals and those were the ones that I could think of.

The brain drain is grossly exagerated... and ignores the large number of people immigrating here...

That said, wasn't the sponsorship scandal all about promoting Canada inside Canada? :lol:

No the sponsorship scandal was about promoting Canada in Quebec although it seems to be turning out to have been about getting government/public money back into the Libeal Party.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=topstories

That's a good one. Funny enough that's what the Liberals are saying. /cough,..kickback,.. cough/

Todays front page of the Ottawa Sun has the Liberals widening their lead by 6 points over the Tories. This after Michel Beliveau, a Liberal top aide as well as Chretien's riding organizer, admited to receiving $300,000 in kickbacks. Silly fool or smart man? Who knows anymore.

Seems the Conservatives can't get the people mad at the Liberals. I wonder how many ardently believe Joe Volpe, who says the Conservatives are the KKK and will never forget or forego their racist past. Slander the Tories, support grows for the Liberals. Unbelievable.

And for the record I am not Liberal, Conservative, NDP or anything else. I just wish we had a group of politicians representing whatever party that weren't fucking embarrassments to the country. What a joke they all are.

I agree with the idea that teh headline is trying to promote - what is it going to take to get Canadians upset at the Liberals.

However, the timing of the poll is not as you mention above "after the Michel Beliveau confession.

- The Michel Beliveau stuff happened yesterday (Thurs.)
- The article states that the Poll was completed on Tues.

I am as perplexed by all of this as anyone... why *do* the Liberals continue to get support?

The only conclusions I come to:

1) The Canadian people distrust the Conservatives *that* much more...
2) Canadians *really* don't want to go to the polls right now and want to wait until February 2006 (read: if the liberals are ahead in the polls, the Conservatives will not force the election)
3) Canadians are so used to getting ripped off by their politicians they just see this as business as usual...

I agree OFKUO... it would be nice to have a government we could trust. Now if everone would just make me the supreme dictator I will make sure there is no more corruption... I promise.

I'll be your right hand man taking care of all your dirty work until I err,....ahh,....uh,..... replace you. Don't make me wait to long. I got debts to pay also. :hmm:

First, people have long memories.

The Liberals fixed alot of stuff. Economically, Canada is working. The debt is getting paid down, and we didn't rape our social programs to do it (well, only a lilbit). People remember this.

Quebec seperation was in real danger. Jean's claim that "we didn't account for the money well enough, crimes where committed. We should catch those that committed the crimes -- and the price was worth it for national unity" still has some weight in Ontario. Ontario is used to spending its money left right and center to keep other provinces happy.

Know how much Alberta trusts Ontario?

Well, let me tell you - the Reform Party of Canada is not trusted at all in Central Canada. The Reform Party built it's existance by attacking central canada (both Ontario and Quebec), and it the current Conservative party is widely viewed more as a Reform Party take-over, and less as a reborn PC party.

Aka, until the commision issues it's report?

Elections cost money. Having rapid elections costs more money. To quote a friend of mine "I don't know who I'm going to vote for. But, if anyone causes an election soon, that party has just caused me real direct financial harm. I'll vote to have them defeated."

He doesn't know how bad the corruption is, and finding out will take time. He does know that causing an election will hurt the national account.

Do national elections cost millions, hundreds of millions, billions or tens of billions of dollars to run?

Or, are willing to see if people will get prosecuted, and want to see more than just allegations?

I expect people to steal money from the government - people steal office supplies, which are worth next to nothing, with a better chance of getting caught. There are dishonest thieves everywhere. The question is, are they willing to catch them and put them on trial?

Fuck, a friend of mine was working with some people, and they found a thief. They where selling DvDs. 3 of them had a partnership, and they had one employee -- on of the 3 people's brothers. One employee. Who stole DvDs and sold them on ebay.

After they caught him (because, like most theives, he was an idiot -- figured if he stole once and wasn't caught, stealing 100 times was just as safe), they worked out that their cash-flow problem that was making it hard for them to grow was basically that noid stealing goods and making them just barely profitable.

Corruption happens. The trick isn't preventing it -- the trick is catching it and burning it out.

Edit: They would have caught it much earlier, but their inventory management system didn't exist -- it was "stack of DVDs over there, ship it".

Edit2: Seplling.

Yakk... that's about how I see it. I am just amazed that it is playing out this way... Usually when the media exposes something as odious as "adscam" the public howls for blood... I would say it is a combination of the above plus the fact that Martin wasn't PM when it occurred...

I'm just impressed that we are mature enough to wait for the Gomery results.

The good part of that is some people will see for themselves hopefully who did what. By that point though I think most people will have completely lost interest or assume that what they heard was true or not and that it is old news. There is no reason to believe this scandal is any different from all the rest in terms of mismanagement, criminal, ethical or otherwise, and apparently it doesn't seem to matter a great deal.

I don't favour an election right away but if one were held now or a year from now, it won't make one iota of a difference. The Liberals scare mongering will win the day and people will continue to believe that all the Conservatives want is power at any cost which, ironically is the first page in the Liberals playbook.

Politics aside, I still can't find an answer to why Canadians are so apathetically contented with our attitudes toward big government. Maybe not interested? Don't care? Too busy? Don't understand? I just don't know. I just wish Canadians had the same passion for what goes on in our country as they do for hockey, Canadian Idol and Corner Gas.

OFKUO... it comes down to the fact that the conservatives, as they are today, will never get voted into power because Ontario and Quebec don't like their Social Conservatism (Quebec has a lot of other issues that get the Bloc elected).

Ultimatley the issue is the voting block in Ontario. You would see very different results in Ontario if the Conservatives were more like the Mike Harris Conservatives and less like Preston Manning's Reform.

As it stands, the NDP is too far left for most and the Conservatives to socially conservative. This leaves the only party left, the centrist Liberals for everyone else.

I don't find it all that much of a head scratcher...

Roughly:
Ontario: 1/3 of Canada
Quebec: 1/4 of Canada
West: 1/4 of Canada
Maritimes+Other: 1/6 of Canada

If your party policies alienate 7/12 to 8/12th of Canada, you won't get elected.

Does anyone know a decent Proportional Representation system that
A> Doesn't make parties the be-all and end-all
B> Gives results that are publically verifiable by humans without mechanical assistance
C> Is otherwise as fraud-resistant as naive FPtP voting
?

That is 100% correct,...unless one is a teacher, nurse or on social assistance. I voted for Harris after Bob (here's a blank cheque) Rae was in and voted the second time because in 30+ years on the planet at that time, he was the one and only politician who actually did what he said he would do, and didn't cave into the whiners and complainers.

To bad he isn't interested in politics at the federal level. He could be one of the best pm's ever.

You know, I don't think the majority of people even realize that. I think most people rely on the soundbite of the day depending on their biases. I hate to paint everyone with the same brush, but I think the majority of the Canadian electorate couldn't figure out what party stands for what if they were presented with a multiple guess quiz.

If that's the case then it is probably people voting by force of habit more than anything else... My mother, for example, is a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal. It's what she has voted for just about, ever.

She was horribly offended when my wife and I had an NDP sign on our lawn last election.

You could also point to the strong support from the immigrant population that resides in and around Toronto... they largely support the Liberals because of the Libs progressive immigration policies. Who knows how much effect the same sex marriage issue will come to bear on this traditional voter base (did you see all the leaders at the Seikh Temple shilling for votes? Make no mistake that was directly related to the fact that there are votes to get there because many Seikh's are pissed about the same sex legislation).

I have voted liberal for as long as I could remember. Except for when I voted for Harris and his PCs in their second term. For once I saw somebody actually DO what he promised. Even though his common sense revolution was trite and simplistic, he actually did what the electorate wished.

So I will vote conservative. what I will not do is vote Federal Conservative, not while the party remains reform under the covers. I for one am tired of westerners (speaking as a Vancouverite now - as west as you can be) griping about the 'Stupidity' of Ontario voters, always voting in the Liberals. Well! goddamit, what are the options???? Another minority gov't that is in bed with the Bloc, just so that they can pull down the current govt?? uh uh.

And besides, why are the Liberals in power in the first place? because of bad taste left in the electorate's mouth after the 2 terms of the most disliked Prime Minister in Canadian history and the PC party.. that's why. We have short memories.

I would vote PC er.. i mean conservative if John Torry was there instead of Harper.... Now that would be a party to reckon with.

Not that I would vote for him but it would be the answer to the Conservative's problems in Ontario... thankfully the Conservatives will never elect him as their leader.

By the way, what is everyone's take on yesterday's vote in the House of Commons?

I think the Bloc and Conservatives are making asses of themselves by forcing the issue. The vote wasn't a non-confidence vote it was a proceedural matter. Why rush things? Even with the justification of Adscam behind they still come off like sour grapes...

They should just wait until next Feb when Martin has promised to call the election. In the meantime just let the country get on with business.

Of course their fear is that everyone in Canada will forget what has happened by the time Feb comes around...

I just love that the Conservative and Bloc are working together... politcs makes strange bedfellows, no?

You say people won't elect the current PC party because of the Mulrony years, yet you say they are Reformers under cover. I don't think you can have it both ways, it's either one or the other IMO.

You know Charlatan, you have an interesting way of wording your responses. I'll read it once and agree or not, then read it again and the same continues. But that's not a bad thing,....it makes one think.

Saw Martin on t.v., tonight. He looks scared. And he isn't a good enough actor to play scared, even though he plays every other face in the book.

A big blow over the next week by either party, and/or a decent rebuff will give the edge and hold it. 50/50 I'd say.

Martin *is* scared... he knows it is pretty much over.

It really is just a matter of time.

That said, the Con/Bloc seem be getting what they wanted, a vote on the budget is to go ahead next Thursday. This will be the confidence vote they've all been wanting.

This *should* be a time for them to sit back and wait. Instead they continue to cry about the vote they won earlier this week... if they were smart they would keep the pressure on but stop with the whining... it really isn't helping them.

They have one week until the vote. They need to be more strategic and less like tantrum throwing kids... The vote will be as close as one vote either way...

Yup you're right.

I think it's almost time for a new thread regarding the ridiculous soundbites of wild accusations from all parties that are sure to come. Let's see if they can come up with some new zingers rather than the old tired,...Liberal=corrupt,...Conservative=Satan,...etc,..etc,... etc,...

My prediction on the budget vote. 1 vote difference. For who? Don't know.

I agree with you that it was just a proceedural matter but the point that they are trying to make (even though they are whinning about it is that they believe that the government has lost the confidence of the house.

I believe they have lost the confidence of the house. At the same time in a minority gov't (and one that is so closly split) it is easy to loose the confidence of the house. It is pretty much inevitable that the gov't will be brought down, if in the menatime teh government (not just the Libs, but the whole house) is useless, they why postpone the inevitable.


There won't be a minority gov't that is in bed with the Bloc. The Bloc will only do what they think benefits Quebecers. Therefore, unless they get what they want from the party in power, they will always oppose that party. They are not in bed with the Tories now becuase they are the Tories. They are voting with them becuase it serves them politically in Quebec to oppose the Liberals.

It would be interesting though to see how a Conservative gov't would try to keep power. They obviously would not be able to bring in the Liberals. It would be really odd to see them work with the NDP. And don't expect the Bloc to be any help to anybody.

I think that what it may do for them is legitamize them a little bit. Even if they don't last long (if they make it of course), if they play it safe they may legitamize themsleves in the eyes of some of the more right wing Canadians that are currently voting liberal becuase they are afraid of the Conservatives (made up of a lot of old Reform).

Everyone should be excited. Not for the state of our government, but becuase politics here have not been interesting in years. There is now finally something worth following.

I don't pay my politicians for enternatainment or excitement.

I pay them to run the god damn country.

Is it true that the Liberals are waiting for "Their" confidence vote until next week because they know that there is a BC torie that needs cancer surgery and he won't vote? That is just low, to wait until the big C takes out your competition.

The GG should stop this mess.

I think there are two non-Liberal MP's that are sick with Cancer and may or may not be able to travel next week.
I don't see any valid reason to delay the budget/confidence vote until next week. The only reason the Libs want to vote over their budget is so they can say how the bad old PC's forced an election over the failure to pass the budget rather than on some non-sexy procedure vote. The Liberals have lost the moral authority to govern and as such, are a bunch of lame ducks; it's as plain as that. Waiting till January is simply a waste of time and will only hamstring parliament.
I agree that this whole mess should end now eventhough I must admit I like watching martin bleat like a stuck pig ;)

I'm sure Martin also wants the publicity pics from the photo op with the Queen next week. :rolleyes:

Too bad though.
You are not going to get what you are paying for as long as there is a minority gov't.

It is true that there are two Tory MPs undergoing cancer treatment as well as one independant MP.
The Tories HAVE accused the Libs of what you say above.
But I still, would like to think anyway, that it is a big jump for them to actually be pushing of the ovte for that reason. Nothing would surprise me.

It is more likely that they hope to get a boost from the Queen coming to town.

Harper should just shut up. with statements like that he's going to snatch defeat etc etc etc....

Seems to be the Harper special, he doesn't know when to shut up when things are going his way, he keeps pushing and pushing.

And to run the country we need a prime minister and his party to show leadership and a vision which has been sorely lacking for many years now.

And further, we need the countries people to hold ineffective regimes accountable and make them responsible to us, not to their own special interests,....that is if we can stay awake long enough to give a shit.

What was the poll a few days ago. 68% of people think Martin is lying and knew about the sponsorship scandal,...yet when asked if Martin is doing a good job, about the same percentage agreed he was doing a good job. Can't get more blunt than that!

take my nephew as a case in point: he gets an allowance from his dad, which is very big because he handles the household bills too. He lies to his dad about where he spends his allowance, a lot of it going into his pocket. But at work he is one of the high performers, and gets excellent reviews. Plus he does a good job about managing the household bills.

I know he is lying, but I also know he is doing a good job.

I think this guy will bring down the liberals on May 19th.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/cadman_chuck050512.jpg

He reminds me a bit of George Carlin.

I don't get that.

He is doing a good job for his employer. He is lying to his father.
People say that Martin is doing a god job (for the people). The same people say he is lying (to the People).

I don't think the cases are the same. Now, if his employer who said he is doing a good job also knew that he was lying to them - that would be a similar situation.

no... that would be an identical situation. I meant it as a parallel, not identical. It's not hard, perception-wise for people to observe a person as lying, yet still observe them to be performing a good job.

sooo... let me see, do I want a lying and swindling Liberal Party that makes deals to save their assets to run my county or a pack of ravenous Tories that drool when they smell blood and sleep with an enemy that wants no more than to separate my country? How about the Green Party! The House needs a spring cleaning.

Marijuana Party anyone? And the Tories sleeping with the enemy (Bloc) is a relatively new thing. Maybe Harper should talk to Martin and get some tips since the Liberals have been in bed with the Bloc forever.

Your right though. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And for that I blame the near 60% of the population who can't get off their butts to vote. Come June 27th or somewhere near there, I hope Corner Gas or Canadian Idol isn't on the tube that night,...just might have an all time low turnout at the polls.

you hit it OFKUO. The west may whine and complain that their votes don't count (but really that's an old song, and will always be the case until population distribution evens out. And with BC voting liberal provincially, it looks like Conservative (reform) is the odd party out)

I can't standh ow people dont vote. I also can't stand how people ALWAYS forget how the Liberals cam into power in the first place: years and years of PC Federal party rule that was the most reviled in Canadian history, so much so, that their party status was eliminated.

I have never missed voting and have cast for NDP, PC & Liberal in the past (because I am an Issue voter). These non voters revile me tho. ( I don't know about the liberals being in bed wiht the Bloc tho, I have a feeling that rhetoric is starting to hold sway).

I agree, I con't stand when people don't vote and try to justify it by saying that their vote doesn't really count anyway.

As for the Bloc being in bed with anybody. I said it earlier. Let's not kid ourselves. The Bloc just like any other party is in this for themselves. They are not in bed with anybody they are just doing what is going to serve their purpose the best.

I don't think the issue is the Bloc being in bed with anyone rather the issue is who is in bed with the Bloc...

Sure Harper is getting what he wants by climbing into bed with the Bloc but after getting what he wants it is going to be an uncomfortable walk of shame in the morning...

I understand what you are saying, what I mean is that nobody is in bed with the Bloc.

The Liberals are in bed with the NDP. They had to bend over...I mean give something to the NDP to get them to go along with them.

The Tories (unless I missed something) did not give anything (or promise) anything to the Bloc. They don't need to give anything becuase the Bloc is going to vote the same way as them on bringing down the gov't. In fact, Harper haters should give the bloc credit in that they would probably not take anything from the Tories even if they did promise it.

I guess the way that I think of being in bed is having some type of deal.

you're probably right. another example of how rhetoric is getting away from us. We automatically assume that because Harper has made statements of how his partywill vote alongside the Bloc to bring down the government, that he is making deals with them. This is most likely not the case. I wonder why the Liberals didn't attempt coallition with the Conservatives as they did with the NDP?

At any rate, I think that Harper actually wants to be PM, otherwise he would be working with the Government to get legislation passed that the Conservatives actually would like to see. just like the NDP has managed to do.

The reason is just as you stated... Harper wants to be PM. He thinks he can get at least a minority government out this election or he would be having us go to the polls only a year after the last election.

Sticky... that is a good point. Harper may not be in bed with the Bloc... that said I wouldn't put it past them to agree to do this but not advertise the fact. And the fact that I am thinking this means a lot of others are probably doing the same...

Well it appears the sponsorship dollars might not be $250 million but now $355 million. Just another hundred reasons to continue voting Liberal.

And of course if these numbers are verified, it won't make one spit of difference. Why should it? It's only our money being wasted. People would rather be blinded by rhetoric of all things scary rather than what is under their noses, something other than green grass.

http://g.msn.com/0US!s6.73430_734763/2.b7371/2??cm=CTVNews