4thTimeLucky

Link

As you can see the issue of asylum in England is a huge one.

Does America have an asylum 'problem'?
Why not? Or why do I never hear about it?

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Lebell

I think our problem is different.

For one thing, the majority of our immigrants are from Mexico and the East and they can't really claim that deporting them is life threatening.

That being said, it is hard to overstate the problem we have with illegal Mexican immigrants.

On the one hand, our economy depends on them. On the other hand, they bleed communities dry by using more services than they pay for through taxes and they bring down the standard of living.

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Kadath

A friend of mine is in law school. This summer he is working for a firm, as is typical. One of his cases is that of a Columbian woman. She is seeking asylum here because she doesn't want to get killed in the drug wars of her native country. Since fleeing to the US, she has already returned to Columbia once(my friend was unsure of the reason why) which is bad enough. Now her mother in Columbia is dying. The woman's options are threefold. She can stay here and never see her mother again, or she can go down, see her mother die, and then return here, or she can go down, stay there, and probably get killed. If she comes back after going to Columbia, she will be arrested upon entering the country, charged with something or other(I wasn't paying attention at that part of the story) and deported. It seems clear that she will never see her mother again.
As for the illegal immigrants from Mexico:
What services can they use? They can't go to the hospital if they get ill, they can't call the police if they're victims of crime, their kids can't go to school.
So I don't know how they can bleed the economy dry, and I wonder how many Mexicans live in Denver. They do take all our good jobs, like dishwashing and migrant fruit picking(nod to Stephen Lynch), so I can see why we should kick them out on that score. I think Bush's plan to offer a one-time amnesty to all the aliens in the country was an excellent one. If they don't want to come forward and pay taxes, that's fine. If we find them after that, they're deported, no questions asked. Problem alleviated to some degree, and precedent set for the future.

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XenuHubbard

I think the problem is the same all over Europe; immigration quotas are quite high, because all countries want to play the part of the "good guy", but when it boils down to it, most people who actually needs to stay can't. Countries will always seek out the people who brings investment and cash.

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Lebell

I don't know how much time you've spent in other areas of the country, nor what the specific situation is in Philly (having only been there once), but they do all those things here, frequently with forged identity papers. One of the things our HR director had to do was run the social security numbers she got to try to weed out the illegal immigrents and we still didn't get them all.

There are also hospitals in Arizona that are facing bankruptcy because of the strain servicing all the illegal immigrants is putting on them not to mention the strain on the public school system for teaching children in two languages.


No, you don't know how many live in Denver, but it is quite a few. Hang out at 38th and Federal any Friday or Saturday night, or better yet, during Cinco de Mayo when the streets are impassible for the residents to get an idea.

And they do indeed take the jobs no one wants. They could make decent wages for working very hard cutting meat. I learned just how hard they had to work and then some of them still got ripped off...by their own people. Still, most just want to earn a decent living and to be left alone.

So I don't know if Bush's idea of an amensty is good or not. I do know that something has to be done.

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Daval

In Canada the problem is quite serious. We get literally boatloads of asylum seekers here since we are viewed as a country who will take anyone and everyone - which unfortunately seems to be the case. Tens of people arrive daily at the airports with no papers, documents, money or anything else declaring asylum. We put them up in hotels, give them free healthcare, etc etc. and then eventually they are given full rights, citizenship, benefits, etc.

When I wanted to move back to Canada with my wife I had to go through a very long tedious application process that cost a few thousand dollars with 3 interviews and tons of red tape. These people are getting a free ride and it pisses me off.

If someone shows up on a plane without any papers or documents we should ship them right back to their origin.

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Kadath

How do you know you didn't get them all? That's kind of a paradoxical statement. "We know we didn't find all of them." Unless you found more later, how could know there were more?
These hospitals in Arizona, they do free work? Because most hospitals around here won't treat you until they know they're getting paid. As for teaching children two languages, well I think it's a good thing. You live on the border of a country with a different native language, you had better expect to be bilingual. Look at schools in Europe. They handle multiple languages.
So...they're okay then, right? They do the jobs that otherwise wouldn't get done, and just want to be left alone. So what is the problem?
Like what? I'm not looking for a concrete plan with dollar amounts and analysis, just a rough idea. Are you proposing ejecting them all? What else is there? Maybe Buchanan's wall? Let's abandon those values that we were founded on. You've only been to Philly once. Have you been to Ellis Island? Seen the inscription? Now have you been to Mexico? I would rather live in northeast Philly(one of the worst parts) than any place in that poverty-stricken country. Is it any surprise they want in? We've got a spectacular deal, living here. I understand why you want to keep it to yourself.

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Lebell

Kadath,

From your confrontational manner and the words you are putting in my mouth, I can only garner that you are trying to start an arguement.

I'm not interested.

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Kadath

Noted.

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hrdwareguy

Around here, hospitals must provide treatment to anyone who enters the doors. They worry about payment later. It's kind of a rule they have to abide by to be licensed. I imagine it's the same around where you are.

As for other services, last time I called 911 they didn't do a background check to make sure I wasn't an illegal imigrant before responding.

The original phrase said nothing about teaching children two languages, it was referring to teaching children in two different languages. I have no problems teaching multiple languages. My nephew was learning Spanish in 4th grade when he lived in Texas. The problem comes when you have to hire additional teachers and pay them to educate students whos parents don't pay taxes. Last time I checked on enrollment, you only had to show proof of residence, not proff on not being an illegal imigrant.

The jobs would still get done. Someone would have to do these jobs. Usually illegeals will do crap work cheaper than a resident. Production will not come to a screaching halt if illegeals are not around to do the job. Just means companies will have to pay at least minimum wage. The problem is that people who don't pay taxes contribute noting to the communities pocket book, but in many cases use the services they are not paying for.

Give us your downtrodden, your week........hey, I got no problem with that, but do it within the confines of our laws. If people want to move to the US and live here, fine. But, they have to abide by our rules when they do that, including paying taxes, obtaining a SSN, etc, etc.

It seems that your philosophy is to allow anyone to come to the US and live however they want but not give anything back. How can we as a country survive when this happens? What do you propose in this situation, tax our own people more and more? Cut back on services the government provides?

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

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Kadath

If Lebell isn't going to fight me, I'm not going to fight you. My philosophy doesn't allow for people to come in and not give anything back. I already said Bush's amnesty was a good plan. Once all the aliens take advantage that want to, we crack down hard. We find you in here, you're out. You want in, show you have demonstratable skills, register, get an SSN, pay taxes, the whole deal. "Our own people" should include anyone who wants to live here and is willing to work for it.

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smooth

Hospitals are required to provide emergency treatment, not general care. Keep in mind, however, that even if a hospital were to treat minor issues (like colds, for example) the general public benefits. People walking around with communicable diseases are a threat to our general welfare--regardless if they are citizens or not. I can't really think of an issue a hospital would be going bankrupt over, however. They certainly aren't doing non-emergency services without payment and unless you feel like denying children health services (or pregnant women the ability to give birth somewhere other than behind a dumpster) then it would seem "the richest, most powerful nation on earth" has a moral obligation to extend the benefits of its wealth to the unfortunate who happen to be in dire need.

Hiring Spanish speaking teachers is a non-issue. That is, unless you don't feel that legal immigrants don't have a right to learn in their native language. I would like to see data supporting the claim that hiring teachers to deal with illegal immigrants is actually bankrupting our education system. Last I checked, federal aid and local taxes are more directly to blame for budget concerns. Perhaps we should be mindful that generations of Spanish speaking families have been living in these areas longer than the US has held a claim on them as a nation.

Lebell

The Arizona Republic
February 07, 2003
By : Sergio Bustos

WASHINGTON - GOP members of Arizona's congressional delegation want to know how many immigrants, illegal and even legal, are using local hospitals. The request comes at a time when border states are clamoring for federal dollars to reduce costs related to illegal immigration.
In Arizona, the need is urgent because of next year's projected $1 billion budget deficit.
Lawmakers have long argued that the federal government's failure to keep out illegal immigrants means local and state governments must pay to jail them or provide them medical treatment.

Led by Rep. John Shadegg, R-Phoenix, lawmakers asked for the data in a letter sent Thursday to Michael Garcia, acting commissioner for the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

"We are trying very hard to force the federal government to pay the costs that its policies are imposing on Arizona's hospitals and health care providers," Shadegg said. "The information we are seeking will help us make that case."

All six of Arizona's House Republicans and its two GOP senators, Jon Kyl and John McCain, signed the letter. Democratic Reps. Ed Pastor of Phoenix and Raul Grijalva of Tucson declined to sign it.
"We are deeply concerned about the increasing burden being placed on Arizona hospitals and health care facilities as a result of treating individuals crossing the Arizona-Mexico border," the lawmakers wrote.

They want to know specifically the number of illegal immigrants who required medical attention after coming into contact with U.S. Border Patrol agents. The INS, which includes the Border Patrol, won't pay medical bills unless illegal immigrants are in their physical custody.

The lawmakers also want accurate numbers of foreigners admitted monthly into the country for "humanitarian" reasons.
Under federal law, the U.S. attorney general can "parole" any foreigner into the country on a case-by-case basis for urgent humanitarian reasons.

INS rules require foreigners to file written requests for humanitarian entry. INS officials said Thursday permission is only granted "sparingly" and in "very compelling" emergencies.
Lawmakers said the massive flow of illegal immigrants, especially through Arizona in recent years, has wreaked financial havoc on hospitals near the border.

About 1 million to 2 million people illegally cross the Arizona border each year.

A study released last September by the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition, a group of local and state government leaders from border communities, found that illegal immigrants racked up $190 million in unpaid bills at 77 border hospitals in 2000. Arizona border hospitals provided $31 million worth of uncompensated care.

The figure did not include Maricopa County, which estimates its costs at more than $50 million.
Kyl plans to introduce a bill next week that would reimburse all states for providing emergency medical care for illegal immigrants, said Matt Latimer, the senator's spokesman.



Bilingual spending falls short
Court order puts state in a jam

Chip Scutari
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 11, 2001


A federal judge could cut federal funds, shut down schools or slap the state with additional taxes if Arizona doesn't spend more to teach students who are new to English.


Despite voter approval of Proposition 203 to restrict bilingual education, the state remains under court order to help students overcome language barriers.

A report released Wednesday by Senate Democrats estimates that it would cost an additional $170 million a year to meet the court's demands. Taxpayers now spend about $20 million on bilingual education programs. The shortfall, according to the report, could throw a wrench into the state's fiscal forecast if a judge rules that current spending is insufficient.

Legislators are being warned to take heed.

"(Federal District Court) Judge Alfredo Marquez is clearly annoyed at the state," Assistant Attorney General Lynne Adams said Wednesday.

"The state has been found in violation of a federal law. This judge has indicated his intolerance for the situation. The Legislature needs to appropriate money to solve this problem."

Also on Wednesday, confusion swirled over education chief Lisa Graham Keegan's statement earlier in the week that she would allow bilingual education to continue under some circumstances. Proponents of Proposition 203 argued that the law bans bilingual education in most cases. Keegan says requirements are more vague.

The 1992 case Flores vs. Arizona prompted the Democratic cost study. It found that current funding wasn't enough to ensure that students overcame language barriers. The case is an extension of the Equal Education Opportunity Act of 1974, a federal law that prohibits states from denying education opportunties based on race, color, sex or national origin.

Currently, Arizona spends about $150 on every student who is classified as an "English learner." The study says about $1,500 per student would fulfill the judge's ruling.

There are about 125,000 bilingual students in Arizona.

Besides the language provision, the judge also criticized overcrowded classrooms, and a lack of qualified teachers and teacher aides.

Some Republicans are skeptical of the cost estimates in the Democrats' report.

"We've got to get students learning English as soon as possible," said Sen. Ken Bennett, R-Prescott and chairman of the Senate education committee.

"But I doubt that it costs another $171 million in the budget to do this."

In October, Marquez ordered the state to do a cost study for bilingual education before the Legislature convened for their regular session on Jan. 8.

That never happened.

The Department of Education tried to put out a contract in mid-December, but there were no takers. The department is now trying to find a firm to do the cost study.

Christy Anderson, Gov. Jane Hull's policy adviser, said the state isn't overlooking the seriousness of the situation.

"It's on the governor's radar screen," Anderson said. "It's important to find out what dollars are already being spent on these types of programs and where the money is coming from."

Anderson said Hull didn't include this in the budget she released this week because she didn't have accurate numbers.

Tim Hogan, an attorney who successfully sued the state over school-construction financing, said he'll be watching to see if the Legislature takes care of business.

"The state will have a big problem if they continue to blow this off," said Hogan, a public interest lawyer who worked on the Flores case. "They are establishing a record of disavowing court orders. I have to presume the state will follow the law. But if they do what they've done in the past, they will do nothing."

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The_Dude

yeah, we have a huge problem down here, but i dont see the immigrants doing anything illegal once they get there.

i really think the policy is lax on the ones from the mexico, which makes it unfair to immigrants from other nations

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smooth

Thanks for the articles although I'm not quite sure of your points since you didn't type anything. Your first article doesn't support your contention that the hospitals are going bankrupt and the second one doesn't even address illegal immigrants.

Are you claiming that ~200 milliion dollars in unpaid debt is going to bankrupt the local hospitals? Before we can conclude illegal immigrants are the cause of their financial woes we should determine how much debt citizens aren't able to repay. As I stated, and the article appears to support, hospitals can't deny emergency treatment--that includes poor citizens as well as non-citizens.

Given that the schools provided a count of the bilingual students one can assume they know who they are. There is nothing preventing the INS from deporting them if they are illegal aliens. However, it's far more likely that they are legal citizens who desire to learn English (according to the article) as well as having a need to learn other material in their native language (something the article did not address). The citizens who are pure Spanish speakers certainly have just as much of a right to learn in Spanish as you have to learn in English--after all, they pay taxes too.

Lebell

I think it was pretty obvious that I did address both issues.

edited to add:

I did leave out the article that stated about a dozen hospitals in Arizona have gone bankrupt in the last ten years. I'll post it if you think you can't take my word for it.

And do I really have to spell it out that Spanish speaking students come from Spanish speaking parents that are usually illegal immigrants and that the english speaking ones are the ones that have been here a couple of generations or more?

Or perhaps we should adopt the mess that Canada has with a French speaking province.

Yeah, great idea. Laws protecting Spanish speakers and forcing English speakers to do business first in Spanish and then second in English.

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smooth

@4thTimeLucky,

We actually have a huge asylum problem. Seekers flow in from Haiti, Cuba, Morocco, China, India, Africa, and quite a few other nations and states.

I'm not sure why you don't hear about them in the major media. It might be related to the way we treat immigrants in general--both legal and illegal (peek above a few posts). Cubans, for example, have to contend with us stomping their economy into the ground, castigating their political structure and leaders, and forcing the ones who attempt to leave their "rogue" state back into the sea.

The sheer numbers of people seeking asylum and their origins may also implicate our foreign policies--another possible reason it isn't featured too often.

smooth

I would like to see the article that claims a dozen hospitals in Arizona went bankrupt due to unpaid bills by illegal immigrants. I suspect your immigrant problem isn't any worse than my old homestate (California) and isn't too far ahead of the one I am currently in (Oregon). I suspect the issues are far more complex than you are potraying here.

You could spell out your claim, yet your article doesn't support the assumption you are making. Firstly, there isn't anything even remotely close in your evidence stating that Spanish speaking children are "usually" (as in, the majority) the offspring of illegal immigrants. Secondly, if those children are not illegal immigrants but were merely born here (albeit to illegal immigrants) then they are citizens. Are you proposing they should be denied equal protection simply because their parents migrated here illegally?

Citizenship stems from birth on our soil and every citizen has a rightful claim to the amenities of our country. If you think the essential structures aren't being funded enough then you should rethink your stance on tax cuts and the manner in which schools are funded.

smooth

What does this even mean? The article you posted clearly stated the schools needed funding to teach the children English and the "125,000 bilingual students" means they speak two languages.

Lebell

Smooth,

Just a few links, since I knew you wouldn't believe me:

(The first one is the one that mentions 12 Arizona hospitals in the last decade.)

http://www.azhha.org/img/pages/2001f...tionpapers.pdf

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=4307

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/200...03-01-29.shtml


I could post a dozen more if you like.

But then again, what's the point? You can't see the arguement that providing BILLIONS of dollars in health care to illegal aliens could possibly be detrimental to the health care system or state's budgets.

Btw, how many billions was California short last year? The same state that has been hit hardest by this?

As to the other stuff, if you can't follow the simple logic that bilingual education means that the primary language of the child is NOT english, nor do they learn well in it (if at all), I don't see further point in arguing.

edited to add:

I just had to throw in this article from the LA Times:

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?C...4&ID=79568&r=1

but what the hey, they all DESERVE health care inspite of being criminals in this country. I'm sure I'm just a bigot at heart for caring more for the citizens of this country.

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Kadath

Now who's putting words in the mouths of others? Don't be getting so defensive, and don't even cast your intolerance of illegal aliens as compassion for your fellow citizens. You're all about welfare, right? Socialized medicine? Oh, you said caring more. Well, given that you apparently don't give a damn about anyone who isn't a legal US citizen, I guess caring more than not at all doesn't mean much after all.

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seretogis

This thread is going nowhere fast.

It's not even about being a legal US citizen, it's about being a legal immigrant. Illegal immigrants should be deported imho. If they can't even cross our borders legally, we have no need of them here. Any company that knowingly exploits illegal immigrants should be heavily fined and/or have licenses revoked. If there is no reason for people to illegally enter the US, the problem will solve itself.

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Lebell

I'll cast it as I see fit, especially if it's the truth. It's not my problem if you can't understand it.

As to my not giving "a damn about anyone who isn't a legal US citizen", you're putting words in my mouth yet again, which is why I don't care to argue with you. I never said it, I never meant it.

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Frowning Budah

Ah finally someone with some statistic to back up their opinion.
Lebell I applaud you. Right or wrong at least you have a basis for what you are saying.

Lebell

Frowning Budah,

After you get your ass handed to you a few times on Internet BBS's, you learn not to say things you can't back up

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