Is this good news for the "War on Terrorism"? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KMA-628 · 03-11-2005, 08:48 AM

Personally, I saw this story yesterday and it actually made me feel pretty good:

Quote:

Spanish Muslims issue fatwa against Al-Qaeda's Osama Bin Laden

MADRID (AFX) - Spain's Islamic Commission, which groups the nation's Muslim community, said it was issuing a fatwa against Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden,
'We are going to issue a fatwa (religious decree) against Bin Laden this afternoon,' Mansour Escudero, who leads the Federation of Islamic religious entities (Feeri) and co-secretary general of the Spanish governmenmt-created Commission told AFP.
The Commission invited Spanish-based imams to condemn terrorism at Friday prayers, when the whole country will be remembering the 191 people who were killed in the train blasts and the 1,900 injured a year ago.
The attacks have been blamed on mainly Moroccan Islamic extremists loyal to Bin Laden.
'We have called on imams to make a formal declaration condemning terrorism and for a special prayer for all the victims of terrorism,' Escudero said.
The Commission has also drawn up a document designed to 'thank the Spanish people and the government for their attitude towards Muslims' since last March 11, in particular for not taking 'disproportionate' measures similar to those which the Sept 11 attacks sparked in the US.
The Commission called on Muslims to take part in Friday's commemorative programme being organised by Spanish authorities and community groups and to work with them to ensure terrorism was defeated.

LINK - However, all of the text from the story were copied above.

To me, this is the kind of outcry from Muslims I have been waiting to hear. If I missed previous accounts like this, I apologize, this is the only one I have seen so far (except Saudi Arabia).

Does this represent a possible change in the tide?

While this event, by itself, may not really account for much, do you think this will open the door to more reaction by the peacful representatives of Islam?

If I am correct, and there really hasn't been outcry like this, was it because of fear of retaliation (i.e. alleged Al Qaeda attacks in Saudi Arabia who did speak out against Al Qaeda and the like)?

Will this get the ball rolling?

Or...is this nothing and we should all just move along, there is nothing to see here?

dksuddeth · 03-11-2005, 08:57 AM

here's my problem with them doing this.

Quote:

The Commission has also drawn up a document designed to 'thank the Spanish people and the government for their attitude towards Muslims' since last March 11, in particular for not taking 'disproportionate' measures similar to those which the Sept 11 attacks sparked in the US.

personally, I don't think they cared as long as it was directed at america, but now that its in their own backyard in spain, things are obviously different for them

MoonDog · 03-11-2005, 09:00 AM

I love the story!
Unfortunately, the fatwa really only affects those Spanish Muslims that follow those imams, right? A fatwa from a more well known, more widely followed imam would make more of a difference.

Or am I all wet?

KMA-628 · 03-11-2005, 09:02 AM

Personally, I'm ok with them taking a hit against America - if, in the long-run, this helps Muslims rally against Bin Laden and people like him.

They can say all they want--as long as some of their anger is also directed at the extreme factions of their own religion.

Moondog -

I am hoping that this creates a trend, you know, baby steps...

tecoyah · 03-11-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

Personally, I'm ok with them taking a hit against America - if, in the long-run, this helps Muslims rally against Bin Laden and people like him.

They can say all they want--as long as some of their anger is also directed at the extreme factions of their own religion.

Moondog -

I am hoping that this creates a trend, you know, baby steps...

These are my sentiments pretty much exactly. I see this as a much anticipated first step, and it gives me some hope that the Bulk of muslims are getting tired of having a fringe element speak to the world for them. Much the way some Christian leaders speak out against the Falwells of the world.

lurkette · 03-11-2005, 09:13 AM

I think it's a positive step, but since it's coming from a Western country I'm not sure how much good it's going to do - I suspect most of Bin Laden's pool of potential supporters would look at them as outsiders who are complicit with the forces of Westernization and modernism that they are committed to fighting against. Then again, it's a good starting point for like-minded Muslims in other countries. I also think it's good that they threw in the bit about the U.S. - it shows that you don't have to be pro-US to be anti-terrorist.

cyrnel · 03-11-2005, 09:16 AM

Yep, it's a good thing. We've heard whispers of the same sentiment from groups here in the U.S., but however slanted it's good to hear coming from authority figures outside our borders. Much better chance it'll make Al Jazeera and other media of the relevant audience.

Anything from Al Jazeera yet?

KMA-628 · 03-11-2005, 09:21 AM

a search for "fatwa" on Aljazeera.net didn't bring anything back related to this.

Nothing on the front page either...

Manx · 03-11-2005, 09:42 AM

This must be the one thousand and first declaration by a Muslim group stating opposition to Bin Laden and/or terrorism.

I can't imagine how anyone could claim they haven't seen something like this before.

tecoyah · 03-11-2005, 09:55 AM

I think this is what makes this somewhat more newsworthy than past statements by "unofficial" groups.

"MADRID (AFX) - Spain's Islamic Commission, which groups the nation's Muslim community, said it was issuing a fatwa against Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden,
'We are going to issue a fatwa (religious decree) against Bin Laden this afternoon,' Mansour Escudero, who leads the Federation of Islamic religious entities (Feeri) and co-secretary general of the Spanish governmenmt-created Commission told AFP."

Seems to carry a bit more wieght, particularly when coming from a country that is less than supportive of U.S. actions as of late.

Manx · 03-11-2005, 10:11 AM

Well, I'm hardly in a position to judge the power of various Muslim organizations. But there have certainly been what appear to be very powerful Muslim organizations denouncing terrorism for quite a long time now - all over various news media.

Here's a huge list of "outcries" that certainly appear to mirror the one from the Spanish Islamic Commission, in message and scope:

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

I am honestly tired of the "When are Muslims going to denounce terrorism?" argument.

The_Dunedan · 03-11-2005, 10:26 AM

Manx;
I'm familliar with that statements you reference above, and I'm as tired as you of the arguement you mention.

However, in fairness, these statements and comments have recieved very, very little coverage in the mainstream US media, and even so-called "independant" newswires like commondreams.org and worldnetdaily.com have largely spiked the story. People can hardly be blamed for not having heard about this.

cyrnel · 03-11-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

This must be the one thousand and first declaration by a Muslim group stating opposition to Bin Laden and/or terrorism.

If the policy announcements from small groups are counted as equal to those of national governing bodies you could be right. Otherwise it stands with few peers.

Quote:

I am honestly tired of the "When are Muslims going to denounce terrorism?" argument.

Do you infer an argument from the question no matter who asks, or am I reading too much into it?

It's likely we'll see groups protest the declaration if only for its perceived support of U.S. policy.

KMA-628 · 03-11-2005, 10:39 AM

Manx -

Other than the condolence notes from your link, I had never heard of any of those comments.

They just aren't getting the media play they should.

Statements like that should be front page news, in my opinion, but they are not.

However, what is the difference between issueing a "fatwa" and just a public statement against the extremists? Is one more important than the other? Hold more weight?

Manx · 03-11-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

If the policy announcements from small groups are counted as equal to those of national governing bodies you could be right. Otherwise it stands with few peers.

I have already addressed the question of "small" groups. The list at the link I provided has many statements from groups who appear to be atleast as "large" as the Spanish Islamic Commission. Unless someone has membership numbers and historical data for any given group, I don't see the line of reasoning behind claiming this particular declaration is somehow more significant than any of countless others.

Quote:

Do you infer an argument from the question no matter who asks, or am I reading too much into it?

I infer ignorance in the question no matter who asks. Likely intentional in nature, though that would remain to be seen.

Quote:

It's likely we'll see groups protest the declaration if only for its perceived support of U.S. policy.

If so, then they are just as likely to be protesting the declaration for its perceived support of U.S. policy and not for the denunciation of terrorism.

Manx · 03-11-2005, 10:51 AM

KMA -

If you hadn't posted this article, it is likely I would never have seen it.

AFX News on Yahoo Finance is not exactly front page NYTimes or CNN Headline News.

NCB · 03-11-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

Well, I'm hardly in a position to judge the power of various Muslim organizations. But there have certainly been what appear to be very powerful Muslim organizations denouncing terrorism for quite a long time now - all over various news media.

Here's a huge list of "outcries" that certainly appear to mirror the one from the Spanish Islamic Commission, in message and scope:

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

I am honestly tired of the "When are Muslims going to denounce terrorism?" argument.

Great. Arafat denounce the suicide bombing in Israel too. Did that make him legitmately concerned about it?

KMA-628 · 03-11-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

KMA -

If you hadn't posted this article, it is likely I would never have seen it.

AFX News on Yahoo Finance is not exactly front page NYTimes or CNN Headline News.

It is on Reuters-UK, now.

A little longer article: LINK

Manx · 03-11-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Great. Arafat denounce the suicide bombing in Israel too. Did that make him legitmately concerned about it?

So if a Muslim denounces terrorism, he's lying. Meanwhile, we need to remain disappointed in the Muslim community for not denouncing terrorism.

Is that how it works?

cyrnel · 03-11-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Great. Arafat denounce the suicide bombing in Israel too. Did that make him legitmately concerned about it?

Understanding motives is a good thing. Arafat certainly had a pasta plate of them. Do we have theories for what's behind this fatwa and its announcement besides the train bombing and similar actions? At the moment I'm taking it at face value.

NCB · 03-11-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

So if a Muslim denounces terrorism, he's lying. Meanwhile, we need to remain disappointed in the Muslim community for not denouncing terrorism.

Is that how it works?

My point is words are not enough. Let's see some action. Let's see individual Muslim groups come out and denounce, in public settings, terrorism and UBL. In fact, I've seen more Muslims come out and denounce the USA in protests set up by ANWER and other communist groups.

It's nice to sit back and say that we need to be tolerant and understanding of their predicament, but we need some good faith action by Muslims right now. The burden of proof is on them. I know it's not PC to say, but in this day and age it;s the reality

Manx · 03-11-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

My point is words are not enough. Let's see some action. Let's see individual Muslim groups come out and denounce, in public settings, terrorism and UBL.

That sounds like words. And it sounds like what has been going on for years now.

Quote:

In fact, I've seen more Muslims come out and denounce the USA in protests set up by ANWER and other communist groups.

As has been discussed in this thread, that you have not seen it does not make it less prevalent. Paying closer attention is a sure method of becoming aware of more information.

Quote:

It's nice to sit back and say that we need to be tolerant and understanding of their predicament, but we need some good faith action by Muslims right now. The burden of proof is on them. I know it's not PC to say, but in this day and age it;s the reality

Absolute nonsense. The only reality where groups that represent 1 billion people on this planet need to come out in protest the actions of a handful of people is the reality that is entirely derived of ignorance.

The_Dunedan · 03-11-2005, 12:15 PM

NCB:
The point that Manx and myself are trying to make is this:
They HAVE done so, both within the US and abroad. The story, however, has been "spiked" by the Statist media here in the US. Such denouncements have been made in public, on the internet, at press-conferances, on the BBC and BBC-World, ad inifinitum ad nauseum. They have, however, not been covered in the US because the press ( both "liberal" and "conservative" varieties ) is not interested in peace, or in Muslim efforts to acheive it. It's the same reason one never hears about the Israeli peace movement, even though it is far larger and more active than its' American counterpart: Peace doesn't sell newspapers.
"If it bleeds, it leads!" -- Old newspaperman's saying, attributed to W. R. Hearst.

NCB · 03-13-2005, 06:36 PM

More great news on the war on terror!!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005112438,00.html

These miserbale POS will undoubtedly be responsible for future deaths. They are committed to the destruction of the West and Israel. The only question is when and where. But will I blame them? No, not at all. We know they are animals and will kill when given a chance. The blood that will be shed in the future will be on the hands of a more dangerous movt: radical liberalism

host · 03-13-2005, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

More great news on the war on terror!!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005112438,00.html

These miserbale POS will undoubtedly be responsible for future deaths. They are committed to the destruction of the West and Israel. The only question is when and where. But will I blame them? No, not at all. We know they are animals and will kill when given a chance. The blood that will be shed in the future will be on the hands of a more dangerous movt: radical liberalism

Here is a less sensationalist report on this situation than the one offered by
thesun.co.uk :

Quote:

<a href="http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=269882005">http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=269882005</a>
Home secretary uses new powers as terror suspects are freed from Belmarsh

KAREN MCVEIGH

THE Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, wielded his new anti-terrorism powers for the first time last night, signing ten control orders for the foreign suspects being held in Britain without trial, eight of whom were released on bail yesterday.

Among those released yesterday was the radical Islamist cleric, Abu Qatada, who has been linked to the Madrid train bombing that killed 191 people a year ago yesterday, and described by the commission that freed him as a "truly dangerous individual".

He was one of five suspects released from Belmarsh prison. Three others were freed from Broadmoor yesterday. A ninth suspect, A, was released on Thursday, and a tenth, G, was freed last month.

Before the new law came into effect last night, the suspects were initially subject to a series of stringent bail conditions imposed by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) yesterday.

These restricted their movements and communication with others and required them to keep in constant contact with the Home Office, police and a company which will monitor them.

The terms of the new control orders are thought to be similar to the bail conditions hammered out by Home Office lawyers and defence teams at SIAC.

These required the men to be fitted with electronic tags, to remain in their homes between 7pm and 7am. They are not allowed to have visitors to their homes without prior notification to the Home Office. Those with children are allowed visitors under the age of 16.

A further condition, which banned any preaching or leading prayers in the mosque, was applied to Mr Qatada. The preacher’s sermons were alleged by David Blunkett, the former home secretary, to have been "an inspiration" for terrorists, including Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker behind the 11 September attacks.

However, under the bill, Mr Clarke will also have available to him a range of additional restrictive powers over the detainees, including: inhibition of their movements to, from or within the UK; prohibition of their movement for 24 hours; a power to require them to provide information to a "specified person"; and powers requiring them to report to a specified person at specified times and places. The SIAC process may be sidelined completely as the bill becomes law.

Last night, a terrorism expert warned that such conditions would be ineffective against those seriously involved in terrorist activities.

Professor Paul Wilkinson, of the University of St Andrews, said terrorists "have ways of communicating with and organising other members of their group". He made fresh demands for such suspects to be tried in court. .............

jonjon42 · 03-13-2005, 06:58 PM

edit: damn you host you beat me to it

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpo...435954,00.html

Quote:

...Mr Justice Ouseley imposed very strict conditions on their release including partial house arrest with a night time curfew, tagging and a ban on meeting anybody not approved by the home secretary...

It really doesn't sound like they are going to be just let out, sounds more like their is going to be people watching their every move for quite some time. I find it unlikely that they will be able be able to get much plotting done. Not to mention at least one of these guys will probably be extradited by Spain soon anyway.

NCB · 03-13-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonjon42

edit: damn you host you beat me to it

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpo...435954,00.html

It really doesn't sound like they are going to be just let out, sounds more like their is going to be people watching their every move for quite some time. I find it unlikely that they will be able be able to get much plotting done. Not to mention at least one of these guys will probably be extradited by Spain soon anyway.

We'll see. But the fact that these guys are out now and can talk with their comrades is disturbing. Either way you slice it, it ain't the best thing for UKs natl security.

NCB · 03-22-2005, 06:05 PM

Navy Launches Catch and Release Program for Terrorists

Terrorist 'Catch and Release' Program

The U.S. Navy announced that it has released a senior Al Qaeda terrorist after questioning him extensively for 27 days while being held for interrogation aboard a U.S. aircraft carrier (USS Enterprise) in the Arabian Sea.

In a humanitarian gesture, the terrorist was given 100 Mexican pesos
and a white 1965 Ford Fairlane automobile upon being released from custody.

The attached photo (taken by Navy photographers aboard the Enterprise)
shows the terrorist on his way home just after being released by the Navy.

Advice has it that the Navy has 472 '65 Ford Fairlanes on inventory - ex staff cars...

Oh, btw, this is satire

03-11-2005, 09:02 AM	#4 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	Personally, I'm ok with them taking a hit against America - if, in the long-run, this helps Muslims rally against Bin Laden and people like him. They can say all they want--as long as some of their anger is also directed at the extreme factions of their own religion. Moondog - I am hoping that this creates a trend, you know, baby steps... __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-11-2005, 09:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I think it's a positive step, but since it's coming from a Western country I'm not sure how much good it's going to do - I suspect most of Bin Laden's pool of potential supporters would look at them as outsiders who are complicit with the forces of Westernization and modernism that they are committed to fighting against. Then again, it's a good starting point for like-minded Muslims in other countries. I also think it's good that they threw in the bit about the U.S. - it shows that you don't have to be pro-US to be anti-terrorist. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

03-11-2005, 09:21 AM	#8 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	a search for "fatwa" on Aljazeera.net didn't bring anything back related to this. Nothing on the front page either... __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-11-2005, 09:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I think this is what makes this somewhat more newsworthy than past statements by "unofficial" groups. "MADRID (AFX) - Spain's Islamic Commission, which groups the nation's Muslim community, said it was issuing a fatwa against Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, 'We are going to issue a fatwa (religious decree) against Bin Laden this afternoon,' Mansour Escudero, who leads the Federation of Islamic religious entities (Feeri) and co-secretary general of the Spanish governmenmt-created Commission told AFP." Seems to carry a bit more wieght, particularly when coming from a country that is less than supportive of U.S. actions as of late. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-11-2005, 10:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	Manx - Other than the condolence notes from your link, I had never heard of any of those comments. They just aren't getting the media play they should. Statements like that should be front page news, in my opinion, but they are not. However, what is the difference between issueing a "fatwa" and just a public statement against the extremists? Is one more important than the other? Hold more weight? __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-11-2005, 09:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
MoonDog Psycho Location: Buffalo, New York	I love the story! Unfortunately, the fatwa really only affects those Spanish Muslims that follow those imams, right? A fatwa from a more well known, more widely followed imam would make more of a difference. Or am I all wet?

03-11-2005, 09:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Yep, it's a good thing. We've heard whispers of the same sentiment from groups here in the U.S., but however slanted it's good to hear coming from authority figures outside our borders. Much better chance it'll make Al Jazeera and other media of the relevant audience. Anything from Al Jazeera yet?

03-11-2005, 09:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
Manx Loser	This must be the one thousand and first declaration by a Muslim group stating opposition to Bin Laden and/or terrorism. I can't imagine how anyone could claim they haven't seen something like this before.

03-11-2005, 10:11 AM	#11 (permalink)
Manx Loser	Well, I'm hardly in a position to judge the power of various Muslim organizations. But there have certainly been what appear to be very powerful Muslim organizations denouncing terrorism for quite a long time now - all over various news media. Here's a huge list of "outcries" that certainly appear to mirror the one from the Spanish Islamic Commission, in message and scope: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm I am honestly tired of the "When are Muslims going to denounce terrorism?" argument.

03-11-2005, 10:26 AM	#12 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Manx; I'm familliar with that statements you reference above, and I'm as tired as you of the arguement you mention. However, in fairness, these statements and comments have recieved very, very little coverage in the mainstream US media, and even so-called "independant" newswires like commondreams.org and worldnetdaily.com have largely spiked the story. People can hardly be blamed for not having heard about this.

03-11-2005, 10:51 AM	#16 (permalink)
Manx Loser	KMA - If you hadn't posted this article, it is likely I would never have seen it. AFX News on Yahoo Finance is not exactly front page NYTimes or CNN Headline News.

03-11-2005, 12:15 PM	#23 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	NCB: The point that Manx and myself are trying to make is this: They HAVE done so, both within the US and abroad. The story, however, has been "spiked" by the Statist media here in the US. Such denouncements have been made in public, on the internet, at press-conferances, on the BBC and BBC-World, ad inifinitum ad nauseum. They have, however, not been covered in the US because the press ( both "liberal" and "conservative" varieties ) is not interested in peace, or in Muslim efforts to acheive it. It's the same reason one never hears about the Israeli peace movement, even though it is far larger and more active than its' American counterpart: Peace doesn't sell newspapers. "If it bleeds, it leads!" -- Old newspaperman's saying, attributed to W. R. Hearst.