And it's with goverment's directive that communism kills people.

I wouldn't dispute that...



The problem with any dictatorship is you have to find a way to deal with those who oppose you. The most efficent way of doing this is killing them.

"Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005)."

That is absolute crap. 20%???? 1 in 5 people???? Come on!!!

Are you disputing the stat, or are you frustrated at the scientific knowledge of the average american?

Makes fun?? No, it's called putting it in perspective


.

The disconnect between lower taxes and job creation is clear in this post right here

It's time for people to assume responsibilty of their own well being.


I agree. First steps are to get rid of the parasitic unions and abolish the Dept of Ed

So you want to raise taxes on other people, right? And oh, does tightening the belt include cutting redundant social programs? Didn't think so


Find me one person in this country that has starved due to the lack of the indivduals income or the lack of money in a govt program. Also, please keep in mind that's it's the evil rich people that pay the overwhelming majority of taxes that support the numerous govt programs that the Left seems to love.

BTW, pan I love your passion though I disagree with your politics. There's no reason for you to be ashmed about it.

While I too can admire such passion, It should be clear that this tone and language should be reserved for the rare situation where its impact is required. Not that we will act for this alone...... No big deal, but we need to be clear.

Just on the subject of numbers, can I assume we're kind of high in other catagories?

Also which ones are percentage and which ones are raw numbers?
Am I expecting too much from an article obviously focusing on the negative?
i dunno.

On another note, I think that the larger your country gets, the harder any of those numbers are to rise in. I've always felt part of the diffictulty in running a country of the state's size, both in area and pop., is the size itself. That many people, means you always exclude a bigger and bigger group with every action, that much space means the cultural differences can only get bigger as those have so little cultural impact on each other, outside of the le-boob-tube of course.

-the fibba

I'm sorry if it comes across as just the "rich" I am yelling at. I am saying it to all of us.

And yes, if there are redundant programs then cut them.

What I meant by tightening our belt was that WE ALL must make sacrifices if we are to better this country.

To pull the attitude "I pay far more in taxes than you do" is petty and yeah if you make a million and pay 1/2 then it is a lot. I understand but people making $30,000 and paying 1/4 are hit harder.

We had an article in the Plain dealer and several othe locals about how the state of Ohio will have to pay $10 million or something more into Medicaid to cover the feds prescription drug program.

All the feds are doing by cutting taxes now is passing the buck to the states and communities that cannot afford it. Esp. Ohio where the unemployment is high, tax base is shrinking because wages are and there is no relief in sight.

We need to all stop being selfish and think about the future and put the fucking greed and who pays what and whether or not it's fair behind us. In the 50's and 60's when we were #1 in everything our tax rates were multiple times higher than they are now. And while I am sure people complained we had the best country in the world. WE set the standards and the rest of the world tried to catch up to us.

I just think we can find a common ground and do what is best for everyone not just the individual. We need to share goals and stop bickering and crying and complaining and find ways to achieve our goals TOGETHER.

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL.

We can make this country the greatest in the history of mankind again, but we better get our acts together and work beside each other and not against each other..... or we will be a country with nuclear bombs and massive military but noone smart enough to fix things or have money to teach anyone to fix things.

I am disputing the stat. However, if it is true, then I am frustrated at the scientific knowledge ...

sometimes the myth is better than the reality.

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Strategic%20...07/PCH0707.GIF

That ain't no myth brother.

Choskins, no scientific measurements here, but I'm sorry to say the stat matches my experience. The widespread rejection of science and discovery has only become more obvious as I've expanded my social interaction. Not to say it's the majority, but there's a scary undercurrent of what feels like intentional ignorance. Pseudo-sciences and fascination with the paranormal aren't helping.

Oh come on, you can't seriously be comparing a single country to an ENTIRE continent???

If you split those 61 companies up into thier respective countries, it's glaringly obvious which single country has the most. That's just a bunch of misleading bullshit.
"Only 50 are U.S. companies", yeah...ONLY 50. That's 81% as many companies that an entire continent has.

I'm not dissing Europe at all, but I'm just saying, that's just misleading crap.

LOL, considering how many rednecks there are in America, I'm not suprised in the least.

I agree with you but that's the problem people on the polar ends of the spectrum don't want to see. They don't want to see the other guy has a point. They don't want to see that a big problem with this country is it's laziness and desire to blame others for their faults. There is little in this country that couldn't be fixed with a little bit of hard SMART work and people taking personal responsibility.

I can't blame social program this or spending that if I look at my own family and see a giant part of the problem with the country looking back at me. We have become a greedy society and liberals and conservatives alike don't seem to recognize that.

I see it is still all about disputing facts and semantics.

"And still we beat on boats against the current borne back ceaselessly into the past."
F. Scott Fitzgerald "The Great Gatsby"

We keep fighting over bullshit and we refuse to SOLVE the problems. Ah well, fuck it, we get what we deserve.

PS. Many thanks Lockjaw for your agreement and seeing the need of working together.... wish more people did.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=81939

"I don't fucking care what it is. IT IS TIME TO FIX THE SYSTEM, BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN AND FUCKING GROW UP. PAY THE FUCKING TAXES AND STOP CRYING, WORK TO INCREASE PAYROLLS AND DEMAND THAT BENEFITS START BEING INCLUDED.

IT IS TIME TO TELL THE FUCKING HEALTHCARE COMPANIES TO FUCK OFF AND EITHER PROVIDE AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE OR THE GOVERNMENT WILL STEP IN.

IT IS TIME TO REBUILD THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AND SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW BAD IT IS.

IT IS TIME TO FUCKING TIGHTEN OUR BELTS, AND AGREE THAT WE WANT A BETTER NATION AND WORK FOR ONE.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE PETTY DIFFERENCES AND THE FUCKING GREED AND JUST DO SOMETHING."

EVERYONE BACK AWAY!!
It's okay Pan, no one's here to hurt you. Everyone here loves you. We're here to help you.

....reminded me of "The Cable Guy.", sorry, continue...

Had to laugh Matthew... so I shouldn't snap and put up barricades around the garden hedge, cause I'm close to going over the edge here....

I mean in another post I had someone ask me what was the better good of the country and the impression I got from his post, no matter what I said would have been cause for that person to say.... I was wrong and trying to shove my values down their throat.

Hey Zeus Freaking Fannie Mae and Uncle Chrispin..... I guess, I am a greedy selfish mother's father's brother's nephew for wanting better schools, better job oppurtunities and healthcare that all can afford....

The Libs cry that is just not enough
and the
Neo-Cons say.... MONEY, IT'S A GAS, KEEP YOUR HANDS OF MY STASH.........

Enough for someone who just wants a better place for his kids to grow up in ..... go.. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: and :lol: :lol: :lol: all the way to the funny farm

THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY HA HA HO HO HEE HEE TO THE FUNNY FARM WHERE LIFE IS HAPPY ==== now I understand what Napolean the 14th meant when he sang that.

Hold on the phone...

huh?
ooo
yes Nurse Cratchit I'm ready for my Thorazine now I'm on my way....
yes, tell Martini to have the little fisheys ready so we can catch big fisheys....

This article would be a lot more damaging if it didn't refer to Europe as one country. Of course Europe as a whole is better than us. But Europe isn't a country.

That's debateable to some Euro friends I have online who believe that the Union is becoming more governmental, and it is just a question of time before the individual countries become states.

Not sur if I believe that but there is sentiment that way.

It shouldn't matter if they refer to Europe as a country or not, the problems they listed should not be here and would not be here if we had politicians pushing forth an agenda to make the US better and not pushing their own agendas without compromise.

this article would be more damaging if the "stats" approached anything close to relevancy. i'm stunned that there haven't been people pointing out this out, right and left.

Irate,

which "stat" is not relevant?

The stat that says companies cut 1 million jobs?

The stat that say we imported more food than exported?

That we are at the bottom of the list in literacy, mathematical literacy, infant mortality?

Which stat is irrelevant, because in our heyday we led the pack in positive ways, this tells me we lead now in negative ways. To downplay what the list is telling us, is to say we are doing fine. I don't think that list in any way shape or form allows us to believe that our country is doing fine.

irrelevant and/or meaningless stats:

compared to what percentage in other countries?

scored worse in what?

how much is spent per worker and how does that compare with foreign countries? there is no context or scope for the dollar figure. if a number for other countries can be found, are they compared against similar job descriptions w/similar pay? are the stats adjusted for local currency value?


The EU has 85 million more people than the US... how could this not be?

scientific literature? how could this possibly be tallied? who decides which literature is "scientific" enough to be included?

compared to how much funding to EU foundations? this is apples to oranges anyway, the US relies on a free market and private industry much more than the europeans do.

maybe they can get a similar education at home? great for them, seriously. i don't understand why this means that our grad schools have been degraded.

how does one judge the "fairness" of healthcare? wouldn't you like to know before you ascented to the veracity of the stat?

ok, how does that compare to anyone else?

10% of people don't have enough food? do you buy this?

ok...

according to what criteria? given the government subsidies given to conglomerates like Airbus why wouldn't they have some big damn companies? moreover, why are big companies implied to be better ones?

again, why is bigger better? a relevant statistic would be overall market share and total revenue for these markets. i'm sure the author would have included them if it benefited the European Dream. :rolleyes:

and created how many? are businesses losing revenue or are they making money?

and this compares to the numbers in the rest of the world how?

40% of the debt could mean 4 dollars out of 10. how much is it compared to our ability to pay it back? how do other countries fare? do we not play a more marked role in some of their industries?

wrong.

compared to...

compared to...

compared to...? the unstated premise is that violence is NEVER acceptable. what if we just want national sovereignty? waaay too simplified.

compared to...

compared to...

yes, we need more federal money to pour into local police. :rolleyes: more vulnerable than ever? :lol:

the most important categories being the ones listed in this article? right...

:lol:

look, this is just silly. first off, you can't simply give a single set of raw numbers when you're saying that one place isn't as good as another. i mean, for goodness sakes, a simple bald context-less comparison isn't even presented. also, huge population and currency valuation issues are not considered. numbers without per capita or percentage figures mean nothing between to entities with wildly different cultures and populations.

i know that if i were to give one of you five dollars for every flaw you could find in the list i'd have to sell my damn car. the errors are both numerous and obvious to anyone who bothers to look. that this drivel is used as a springboard for discussion is shameful.

because discussion is such a horrible thing unless you have exact figures, percentages and stamp from jesus saying that you're right.

I see, so because YOU do not see the value of what these numbers say (and the fact that they are telling us what we already know, there are serious problems we need to fix here), then we shouldn't worry about things and it is worthless to discuss.

So because you see no point in trying to fix things, noone else should. And since you see no point then there would never be compromise to better anything.

Hence, one side decides their agenda is the only one worth listening to and doing anything about.

Hence gridlock, hence promoting hatred, hence a country that will continue to fall because people don't care to see the other side they just care to see their side.

I'm not saying the article is 100% right, I'm simply saying and I think a vast majority would agree, this article points out problems and weaknesses we need to work on and better.

Aw well, what's the point nothing will change too many people love to live in misery and complain and not do anything.

I'm not miserable nor do I want to sound like a crybaby. It's just I look at both sides and realize neither truly wants to better the country. And I find that very sad, in that I know the USA is capable of so much more and that all of us can live better.

Instead, I am resolved to the fact that this country will get worse, because one side ignores and chooses to not do anything because they feel they pay too much, and another side chooses not to do anything because they want to say "see told ya so". So neither side will listen to reason and want change.

the point isn't that there is nothing to fix, the point is that this information is worthless. if we are to fix the problems we must demand real statistics with real analytical weight behind them.

i dislike it when the blatantly obvious gets cast into the realm of personal opinion. it's not that i don't see value in these statistics, it's that there ISN'T value in the statistics. who among us would make any decision in life with this type of information? would you shop for a car or buy a house with a similar collection of data? of course not. how then could we begin to have a meaningful discussion about infinitely more serious and complex issues? there is no doubting your sincerity pan, but you must demand a better starting point for discussing the issue.

I think you missed the point. The purpose of this list was to point out the myriad different ways in which america is less than ideal whether compared to other nations or not. I believe that many americans harbor the false notion that america is top dog in every endeavor it chooses to undertake. Before you can have a discussion about any problem, you must first acknowledge that the problem exists. That is the purpose of these stats.

Even though many of the stats compare the u.s. to the e.u. doesn't mean that all of the stats must compare the u.s. to another country.

irat, this information is in no way worthless and does not need to be compared to any other country. The stats are horrible as they are without reference to other countries. The US claim to be one of the most developed countries and therefore 20 % should not think that the sun orbits the earth. Maybe in Indonesia 60 % believe so and 24 % in Japan but that does not matter. It is bad as it is.

Irate, you have to understand the meaning of this article and the susequent posts. It's not about problem solving, it's about bashing this country. It's what liberals do. They take the opp every chance they get to take this nation down a peg or two. They offer a litney of complaints, compare our literacy rate to Cuba, and then proclaim that we're not doing enough.

Do we have issues to deal with in this country? Of course we do, but that in no way takes away from how great this country is. Just pray that they don't love their children like they love their country.

When I lived in Singapore they taught all the Singaporeans that they were the best in the world in just about everything, really everything. From culinary to fashion, technology to urban planning. Lee Kuan Yew stood up and told everyone to be proud to be a Singaporean saying how they rose up from an impoverished nation like their neighbors to metropolis worthy of the world stage.

Watching The King and I the other day, the teacher shows them a new map where Siam is not the largest thing in the center of the map, but just small part of the SE Asian peninsula. The prince was rather upset to discover this "new view."

As I travel around the world these past number of years, I have come to realize that the world isn't much different from place to place. People have strong national pride towards their homelands, while sometimes they may be embarassed by particular moments, as a whole, they still are proud of their nation's position.

But if America has the fewest % of people who believe the sun orbits the earth, then America IS the best in that facet. I believe that irate was pointing out (correctly) that in an article trying to show that America isn't tops in a bunch of topics, but doesn't show the comparison.

I don't think that the original article wasn't for the purpose of problem solving, but was for the purpose of showing how America sucks. The article starts with the assumption that the EU is better. It uses alot of numbers to try to prove this, but these numbers are in a vacuum. There is no comparison to determine if indeed the EU is better in those things.

There are many things that can be improved in America. And some of these things (especially the public school systems) are already being done better in the EU. But that wasn't the purpose, the purpose was to show how they are right and America is wrong. And they failed to do that.

thanks. i read this while scrolling down to say this very thing.

So it's a good thing that 1 out of five americans isn't aware that the earth orbits the sun?

Comparisons are nice and all, but there are many instances where i don't care what other people are doing when i decide what is acceptable for myself. If i only drink and drive one night a week, does that make me better than someone who drinks and drives three nights a week? Would you be happy if i told you that i sold crack to three schoolkids a week, as long as i didn't tell you about anyone who sold less drugs to only one schoolkid a week?

We're 49th in world literacy. There's a comparison for you.

We're 28th in math literacy. Another comparison.

We're 37th in overall health care performance. What does "health care performance mean"? Well, i guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

If 3 out of 5 americans thought civil rights were overrated would that be acceptable for you if you had nothing to compare it to?

hey, as long as my taxes are low and i don't have to think for myself, then it's a-ok in my book! :thumbsup:

do you think anyone is implying that?

and yet you title the thread "We're number 37!! We're number 37!!"? that isn't what you were saying at all.

not sourced, but an improvement.

you're referencing your own original post where the measurement was gauged in "fairness."

i see what you're getting at, but it's a combination of a sidestep and a backtrack. if you'll read any dissenting post on this thread you'll see that no one is completely happy with the status quo... so don't pretend that anyone is. the dissenters are frustrated that you would present this data as valuable in revealing the real nature of the problems we face when it is clearly flawed.

No one is implying anything, what a few are saying is that stats like this don't matter if we have nothing to compare them to.



"There are many instances"

Nope, i'm referencing my original post where the measurement was gauged in "overall health care performance."



How am i backtracking? I though that you were throwing out all statistics that don't involve some sort of comparison. I was pointing out how silly that is.

No one is happy with the status quo, but many are happy as long as we can't compare our failings to anyone else.

What, do the dissenters want a peer reviewed essay about each and every flaw? If that's what you think i owe you with this thread, than i'm sorry to break it to you, but i was just trying to point out that our country isn't exactly god's gift to the world.

I believe one should have a rational understanding of your relationship to your nation and a the people with whom you share a social contract.