Students these days don't mind government censorship - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

raveneye · 01-31-2005, 09:27 AM

This is absolutely frightening.

I've always thought that if you want to get a good idea of the current direction of the cultural evolution of a society, ask its youth.

Read this carefully, and weep:

Quote:

Only half of the [high school] students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories.

. . .

When asked whether people should be allowed to express unpopular views, 97 percent of teachers and 99 percent of school principals said yes. Only 83 percent of students did.

....

The survey, conducted by researchers at the University of Connecticut, is billed as the largest of its kind. More than 100,000 students, nearly 8,000 teachers and more than 500 administrators at 544 public and private high schools took part in early 2004.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6888837/

Willravel · 01-31-2005, 09:54 AM

Who is to blame for this? Who is responsible for this social retardation? I have never been more embarassed to be young than I am right now. I only hope these people are able to com to their senses before it is too late and they are left in charge.

Paq · 01-31-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Who is to blame for this? Who is responsible for this social retardation? I have never been more embarassed to be young than I am right now. I only hope these people are able to com to their senses before it is too late and they are left in charge.

who is to blame for the shaping of the youth? parents, teachers and the media....in about that order

irateplatypus · 01-31-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

who is to blame for the shaping of the youth? parents, teachers and the media....in about that order

agreed. it's too bad the order of influence has been reversed.

SecretMethod70 · 01-31-2005, 10:46 AM

A fuller article which I was going to post regarding this:

Quote:

U.S. students say press freedoms go too far
By Greg Toppo, USA TODAY
One in three U.S. high school students say the press ought to be more restricted, and even more say the government should approve newspaper stories before readers see them, according to a survey being released today.

The survey of 112,003 students finds that 36% believe newspapers should get "government approval" of stories before publishing; 51% say they should be able to publish freely; 13% have no opinion.

Asked whether the press enjoys "too much freedom," not enough or about the right amount, 32% say "too much," and 37% say it has the right amount. Ten percent say it has too little.

The survey of First Amendment rights was commissioned by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation and conducted last spring by the University of Connecticut. It also questioned 327 principals and 7,889 teachers.

The findings aren't surprising to Jack Dvorak, director of the High School Journalism Institute at Indiana University in Bloomington. "Even professional journalists are often unaware of a lot of the freedoms that might be associated with the First Amendment," he says.

The survey "confirms what a lot of people who are interested in this area have known for a long time," he says: Kids aren't learning enough about the First Amendment in history, civics or English classes. It also tracks closely with recent findings of adults' attitudes.

"It's part of our Constitution, so this should be part of a formal education," says Dvorak, who has worked with student journalists since 1968.

Although a large majority of students surveyed say musicians and others should be allowed to express "unpopular opinions," 74% say people shouldn't be able to burn or deface an American flag as a political statement; 75% mistakenly believe it is illegal.

The U.S. Supreme Court in 1989 ruled that burning or defacing a flag is protected free speech. Congress has debated flag-burning amendments regularly since then; none has passed both the House and Senate.

Derek Springer, a first-year student at Ivy Tech State College in Muncie, Ind., credits his journalism adviser at Muncie Central High School with teaching students about the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech, press and religion.

Last year, Springer led a group of student journalists who exposed payments a local basketball coach made to players for such things as attending practices and blocking shots. The newspaper also questioned requirements that students register their cars with the school to get parking passes.

Because they studied the First Amendment, he says, "we know that we can publish our opinion, and that we might be scrutinized, but we know we didn't do anything wrong."

This is simply frightening to me. Not surprising, but frightening. It's still a wonder to me that so many people don't recognize the effect seemingly minute concessions of freedom can have in the long run.

flstf · 01-31-2005, 10:49 AM

Interesting poll raveneye. I wonder what unpopular views the 83% of students are so worried about. I suspect they are concerned with pro-racism and pro-sexism but I'm just guessing. No matter what their concerns are, this is sad. Maybe the question was asked in a leading manner or something. I can't believe so many do not believe in a free press.

Willravel · 01-31-2005, 10:54 AM

It's our job to teach these kids just how important these freedoms are, and what could happen if they take them for granted. Ignorance won't be bliss if they allow freedom to slip away.

Hardknock · 01-31-2005, 11:01 AM

WHAT THE FUCK?

This is absolute nonsense. Press goes to far? Students think the ability to critize government should be restricted? We as a country are doomed if they're in charge one day.

Lebell · 01-31-2005, 11:24 AM

I recall not long ago that one poster said that civics classes were akin to "patriotic indoctrination".

Well, sign me up for some indoctrination if the lack of them results in this, because this is scary.

uncle_el · 01-31-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

This is simply frightening to me. Not surprising, but frightening. It's still a wonder to me that so many people don't recognize the effect seemingly minute concessions of freedom can have in the long run.

exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I recall not long ago that one poster said that civics classes were akin to "patriotic indoctrination".

Well, sign me up for some indoctrination if the lack of them results in this, because this is scary.

agreed.

i imagine that much of our current state of affairs here in the u.s. has much to do with it.

Coppertop · 01-31-2005, 01:10 PM

Social retardation indeed. It would seem the propaganda machine has been running overtime.

flstf · 01-31-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Social retardation indeed. It would seem the propaganda machine has been running overtime.

I wonder which propaganda machine, the left, the right or both?

01-31-2005, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

who is to blame for the shaping of the youth? parents, teachers and the media....in about that order

It's kinda hard for teachers to give children the truth when they are forced to say things like "Evolution is JUST A THEORY" because people cant admit that they subscribe to a lifestyle that might not be 100% factual.
(Tank is the son of a teacher who really does care.)

drakers · 01-31-2005, 03:05 PM

I feel old because I'm saying this but I am scared of the future if this is what our youth really thinks. Restriction of the "free press", what the hell? That is why our education system needs to be overhauled, not enough money goes to teaching our kids.

martinguerre · 01-31-2005, 03:20 PM

holy shit. corporate memory is tricky, and not always a good thing. but these kids need to be reminded who nixon was, and in a hurry.

Holo · 01-31-2005, 05:00 PM

Since when did kids become censors, oppressors and deniers of basic American Rights? Is it a product of societal pressure, a willingness for uniformity and a desire to not stand out that makes these kids want to stifle freedoms? Is it our homogenized society of non-conflict and uniform corporate commerce? Or are kids being taught intolerance for any kind of dissent and "rocking the boat" in any important way?

What can we do? Well if you're a parent the answer is obvious. If you're not then display the freedoms we have...use the rights the Constitiution guarantees you. Create something that might be disapproved by others. Fuck, even burn a flag if you gotta. Yes, I know that statement pisses some of you off. But if you accept that I have a right to say and do just that, then you are not the problem. Show the youth what their rights are by practicing them daily. The alternative is not pretty.

Hardknock · 01-31-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakers

I feel old because I'm saying this but I am scared of the future if this is what our youth really thinks. Restriction of the "free press", what the hell? That is why our education system needs to be overhauled, not enough money goes to teaching our kids.

It's funny how suddenly we have an extra 80 billion to fight war but no money for education!! No, no, no!! Can't do that!

This pisses me off, but at the same time doesn't surprise me one bit.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-31-2005, 06:09 PM

That's funny because federal tax dollars don't pay for education, it's local and state funding. But federal tax dollars are constitutionally levied and provided to pay and sustain (gasp) a military, mind you a military that has soldiers in the field in two different theatres.

Hardknock · 01-31-2005, 06:47 PM

That's funny also since Bush was sure spewing about his no child left behind "act" making up standards for everyone but in the end he doesn't back them up. And who's to say someone can't sponsor a bill to make the federal government invest in educating it's citizens.

Mabye then they'll know what the first amendment is and mabye they'll actually *gasp* WANT to go and fight to protect it.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-31-2005, 06:51 PM

The point being is that education and civil services aren't meant to be sustained by the Feds, it's the job of the local and state government. It's not Bush's fault that kids today are fucking morons, and that the progressive thinking morons think the quick and right fix is always more money.

greytone · 01-31-2005, 07:27 PM

This survey really frightens me. It appears that the NEA is doing a good job of indoctrinating their students without teaching them about what this country is all about. I think that both the right and left is responsible for this. The left has taken political correctness to ridiculous extremes. College campuses are not places where conservative thought is allowed in some cases. The right thinks that banning flag burning somehow is a good thing without understanding that the ban itself is more harmful to the flag and what it represents. The religous right is busy trying to protect us from thoughts that could endanger our souls (or maybe they just don't trust themselves and need to limit their rights in order to not be tempted).

We have become very polarized and we are increasingly more intolerant of those who disagree with us. We tend to marginalize those who oppose us and anyone who disagrees is "extreme." With this mindset it is easier to think that limiting the speech of extremists is acceptable, since what they have to say is not valid anyway.

When is the moon colony going to start accepting applications?

JumpinJesus · 01-31-2005, 08:08 PM

I find it interesting that it was posted that parents, teachers, and the media are responsible, yet more vitriol is directed at teachers so far. Interesting because I'm a teacher. Interesting because the federal government DOES fund education. They can't legislate it, but they fund it. NCLB is the result of this. Since the federal government can't legislate, they use funding as a carrot stick to entice school systems to obey their whims. Schools desperately need the money; otherwise, NCLB would have been embarrassingly ignored.

Now, there are millions of teachers doing a horrendous job educating kids. How in the hell can I teach my students civic responsibility when they walk into my classroom convinced that the capital of the United States is Illinois? They're fifth graders and they don't have a damn clue about anything regarding their nation's history or it's form of government. Not a one of my students can tell me what the president's job is.

I try, but it's an uphill battle with 10 ton weights tied to the bumper.

/end threadjack.

Lockjaw · 01-31-2005, 09:09 PM

Well what do you folks expect? We have a generation that was taught that saying anything controversial like racism,sexism, etc is wrong and tantamount to heresy.
And we also have a generation of kids that have grown up on some of the most irresponsible journalism in general ever.
They know enough to know these things are bad but they aren't smart enough to realize that even bad things are protected under our laws.

roachboy · 02-01-2005, 10:05 AM

my experience with university students has indicated to me that they are, in the main, much more conservative now than they were in previous times. much more locked into the status quo as a necessary horizon for thinking, much less equipped to relativize the existing political and cultural orders....as i have long assumed this was among the central points of conservative educational policies, i cannot say i am surprised, but i am saddened by it. it is not good to see servility knit into kids understanding of the nature of their world.

not good for them----not good for anyone, frankly.

the idea that this would be reversed by civics classes, in this political climate, with the right at the wheel, is a pipe dream. i would think that, in this climate, all these classes would do is further naturalize the pathology of nationalism, and this during a period when its relevance is becoming increasingly tenuous. future policy makers will have to figure out ways to think out from under its history. way to go--the oedipal route--blind yourself and inflict your blindness on kids. at least that way, those who blind themselves do not have to worry so much about unfortunate questions being raised-----hell, why should they be? their progeny are afraid to ask them.

yes, this is definitely the way to go.

Paq · 02-01-2005, 12:00 PM

I'm so glad i'm not the only one that is noticing a very conservative trend towards college kids and campuses in the past few years. I used to consider my own college a bastion of liberal thought in the deep south until 2000 when it seems every right wing fundamentalist church group decided to open up and pressure the school into admitting a lot of people who previously would not be interested in attending...but mostly, i've noticed a lot of students with just an apathy towards anything and it really is scary to me, considering i'm not that far removed...

pig · 02-01-2005, 12:23 PM

first, I think it's part of a natural cycle - I don't like it, but I recognize we're still shifting right after the sixties / seventies. the rebels will be back en force soon enough...regardless of your political position, in times of heavy military activity like this, i'm not surprised to see conservative philosophy growing...maybe it will springboard a shift back to the left before all is said and done.

trust your government my ass...

Willravel · 02-01-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I find it interesting that it was posted that parents, teachers, and the media are responsible, yet more vitriol is directed at teachers so far. Interesting because I'm a teacher. Interesting because the federal government DOES fund education. They can't legislate it, but they fund it. NCLB is the result of this. Since the federal government can't legislate, they use funding as a carrot stick to entice school systems to obey their whims. Schools desperately need the money; otherwise, NCLB would have been embarrassingly ignored.

Now, there are millions of teachers doing a horrendous job educating kids. How in the hell can I teach my students civic responsibility when they walk into my classroom convinced that the capital of the United States is Illinois? They're fifth graders and they don't have a damn clue about anything regarding their nation's history or it's form of government. Not a one of my students can tell me what the president's job is.

I try, but it's an uphill battle with 10 ton weights tied to the bumper.

/end threadjack.

It sounds like you're one of the good teachers. I hope my daughter is lucky enough to have teachers like you. As a parent, I recognise how this is as much my responsibility as anyone elses. I will make sure my daughter (after she learns to talk) knows what "government" really means (a body that serves the people in order to organize, protect, and represent said people) and how that applies to her life and well-being. I worry though, because I never see any of my friends telling their kids abnout such things. Could this be a result of parental apathy?

irseg · 02-01-2005, 02:25 PM

It would be interesting to know why these students want to see government oversight of the press.

A lot of right-wingers would want to see leftist views, things they consider immoral, and anti-US stories to be censored.

On the other hand I've heard plenty of leftists claim that right-wing columnists use sexist/racist "hate speech", promote hatred of other countries, etc., and call for them to be restricted for not being politically correct.

So I wonder who's more responsible for this mentality.

raveneye · 02-01-2005, 02:46 PM

I tutor high school kids in the evenings in math and science. I just returned from a session with a 12 year old.

At the end he was telling me a story about a friend of his that had a GPS unit that allowed the government to track him. I said, "Huh, GPS just tells you your position. It's not a transmitter."

He: "Yes it is, it has a transmitter that tells other people where you are."

Me: "No, it's just a receiver that picks up satellite signals."

He: "No, if you have a GPS unit, it tells the government exactly where you are."

Me: "Why would the government need to know exactly where you are?"

He: "The police need to know, in case you commit a crime."

Me: "So everybody who has a GPS unit is being tracked by the police?"

He: "Yep"

I agree that kids today are much more conservative than they used to be, maybe more conservative than ever before in this country.

And that probably means that they'll be even more conservative as they get older . . . . . .

SecretMethod70 · 02-01-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

first, I think it's part of a natural cycle - I don't like it, but I recognize we're still shifting right after the sixties / seventies. the rebels will be back en force soon enough...regardless of your political position, in times of heavy military activity like this, i'm not surprised to see conservative philosophy growing...maybe it will springboard a shift back to the left before all is said and done.

trust your government my ass...

Actually quite the opposite. I think a lot of the conservative trend is the result of so many years of prosperous growth. I posted a magazine article in general discussion that shows that a little bit as well. What I'll be interested to see is the effect a recession and a real and controversial war has on the students of 4-6 years from now.

Ace_O_Spades · 02-01-2005, 03:01 PM

An original comment is "Who is responsible"

Here is my order of responsibility:

Teachers -> We entrust them with our children to educate them about our society, government, history etc etc... This includes constitutional rights and freedoms. It is imperative that in a theater of learning these ideals be transmitted. Teachers are the ones most responsible for this.

Peer Group -> During adolescence, kids spend more time with their friends than with any other group of people. If different, unpopular, or deviant ideas aren't voiced or when they are they are shunned, kids learn that deviant ideas are dangerous.

Family -> It all comes back to the family. While watching the news, identifying propaganda and other ideas which hurt the effectiveness of your Constitution is central to the Socialization process.

Lebell · 02-01-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

An original comment is "Who is responsible"

Here is my order of responsibility:

Teachers -> We entrust them with our children to educate them about our society, government, history etc etc... This includes constitutional rights and freedoms. It is imperative that in a theater of learning these ideals be transmitted. Teachers are the ones most responsible for this.

Peer Group -> During adolescence, kids spend more time with their friends than with any other group of people. If different, unpopular, or deviant ideas aren't voiced or when they are they are shunned, kids learn that deviant ideas are dangerous.

Family -> It all comes back to the family. While watching the news, identifying propaganda and other ideas which hurt the effectiveness of your Constitution is central to the Socialization process.

As husband to a teacher, I know that your order is wrong.

Learning, ALL learning, starts with the PARENTS.

The kids who's parents care, learn well from my wife, but moving heaven and hell cannot make the kids learn whose parents don't care.

pig · 02-01-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Actually quite the opposite. I think a lot of the conservative trend is the result of so many years of prosperous growth. I posted a magazine article in general discussion that shows that a little bit as well. What I'll be interested to see is the effect a recession and a real and controversial war has on the students of 4-6 years from now.

Secret, you don't think there's a little rally-round-the-wagons action going on? I'm not arguing, I'm asking. Your other comments I agree with wholeheartedly, and in fact those are two of the very things I'm thinking will fire up a trend back towards the left.

SecretMethod70 · 02-01-2005, 11:17 PM

Not at all. I think that the general conservatism and support for this wartime situation is a direct result of of the type of environment young adults today grew up in. The magazine article I posted focuses on the upper class extreme, but one of the reasons it does so is that if that's the extreme, the childhoods that they experience are also being experienced, to lesser degrees, by those in, say, the middle classes as well. (Not surprisingly, the lower class involves an entirely different dynamic, at the other extreme).

Having grown up in a middle class home and having gone to school with a range of kids from middle class to upper class, I am quite inclined to agree with the observations of the article (which I will try and summarize a bit in a second, for the lazy or time-challenged

), and many of the discussions and other readings which I have taken part in for my class on political socialization actually address this very question.

So then, the basic point is that young adults today have lived in a time of growing structure and certainty in their worlds. They have no real recollection of a Cold War. The one significant conflict they experienced in their developmental years was a cakewalk - a videogame as some have come to call it. Their lifetime (up until the past few years) was filled with general economic success. On the more specific level, parenting has been more protective than ever. Don't believe it? I just learned this past weekend that, in this area at least, one is supposed to (by law) use a child seat when driving their child up to the age of EIGHT. Children's parents make "play dates," structuring even their recreation time. The entire existence of most middle class children and up has been, to varying degrees, (dare I say it) marred by structure and deferment to authority. They simply never grew up with any real reason to learn to question authority.

That's why I have such an interest in the future high school and especially college students though - the ones we will see 4-6 years from now. These children are experiencing the Iraq war and recession during a time period that can have a profound effect on their political development. So, we'll see. But when I think about the majority of people in college today - whether it be from the lower middle class or the upper class - and I observe people who are all too willing too defer to authority, lack critical thought, and are in love with structure and certainty.

irseg · 02-02-2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

But when I think about the majority of people in college today - whether it be from the lower middle class or the upper class - and I observe people who are all too willing too defer to authority, lack critical thought, and are in love with structure and certainty.

So THAT explains why so many of my peers are flaming leftists!

Defer to authority.. "We need the government to regulate industries, make sure rent prices don't get too high, mandate 'diversity' by enforcing racial quotas, protect us from ourselves with anti-smoking laws, America shouldn't go to war without UN approval"....you get the picture.

Lack critical thought: "No blood for oil! Anyone but Bush! Our right to dissent is destroyed!"..check!

In love with structure and authority: "The government needs to take money from big evil corporations and rich people who exploit the poor working man, and use it to make a level playing field for everybody"..check!

I keep hearing all these claims that there's some kind of huge conservative movement among high school and college kids, but they don't seem to bear out too well in real life. Talk to a few college students and find out what they think of Bush. Or easier yet, read any Fark (whose members are mostly in their teens and twenties) political thread.

Paq · 02-02-2005, 01:27 AM

i believe it has been pointed out time and time again that most people who are online are more liberal thinking, hence the left swing of tfp, fark, etc, with a few very outspoken conservatives.

go to the colleges, takl to the people in person and you'll find a right wing swing to the students these days.

SecretMethod70 · 02-02-2005, 06:33 AM

Well, lacking critical thought, defering to authority, etc doesn't mean that someone is going to be a conservative either. In fact, it can take place equally on both sides of the political spectrum. I think it's a bit silly to try and associate these traits to only one political group. It's equally likely that a person who is raised by Democratic parents and in a Democratic environment will fit into those descriptions, only in different ways.

When you try and seek easy answers, you're only going to get dumb ones.

And when I read Fark, etc, I see people (on both sides mind you) who spew off talking points that they heard from someone higher up in their realm of political thought. No, I don't see any innovative thought there. Most of these debates occur within the status quo, and that is the point that is to be made. People are all willing to voice their opinion, so long as it's not very likely that it will harm their place in the "system." When faced with real decisions, they back down. How many students today would protest and stand up for what they believe if their school were to tell them "If you do this, your grades will be lowered," or "If you do this, you will be suspended." Not many at all.

It sounds like you're looking for some simple explanation or description, but there isn't one. There are a number of different factors that go into someone's political development, and most of it has to do with HOW one approaches issues, not what political party they associate with. And, today, students are extremely conservative in their approach, whether they identify with the left OR the right.

martinguerre · 02-02-2005, 07:36 AM

smeth is very right about all this...i think such headlines really ought to capture our attention when we think about how we want to raise our kids. and not just politically, but holistically. one of the most important things you can train a child to do is to make decisions. it's also one of the hardest and most frustrating...but its such a gift to give that kid the ability to make mistakes, learn, and become an independant moral agent....instead of a talking point reciter.

alansmithee · 02-02-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

i believe it has been pointed out time and time again that most people who are online are more liberal thinking, hence the left swing of tfp, fark, etc, with a few very outspoken conservatives.

go to the colleges, takl to the people in person and you'll find a right wing swing to the students these days.

Actually, most colleges are still left-leaning politically. Although I did read in an article around two months ago that college campuses are moving conservative (at least in the student body, most faculty are still overwhelmingly leftist). And honestly, I don't see how anyone who really values truth and doing the right thing could oppose more diverse viewpoints on higher learning campuses.

I also don't think teachers should be blamed for this trend in students. Honestly, alot of people give lip service to teachers having all this influence, but when they try to exert it parents are oftentimes angered. I did a report on the differences between American and other western schools (along with Japan). And in the other societies teachers are expected to make suggestions to parents as to how they think a child is being raised. They are treated like child experts almost. Whereas alot of times in America if a teacher were to criticize someone's parenting, they risk getting punched. Until teachers are treated with more respect and given more esteem, it's hard to blame them for bad trends.

raveneye · 02-02-2005, 09:51 AM

Quote:

if a teacher were to criticize someone's parenting, they risk getting punched.

This is true . . . my wife teaches in a local private high school, and she comes home practically every day laying into the parents and what they allow their kids to do.

In her parent/teacher conferences, she often just takes the kid gloves off and tells them what they should be doing. Some of them take offense and complain, but most of them sort of sheepily agree. Mainly because she's right on most of the time.

01-31-2005, 11:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I recall not long ago that one poster said that civics classes were akin to "patriotic indoctrination". Well, sign me up for some indoctrination if the lack of them results in this, because this is scary. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

01-31-2005, 03:20 PM	#15 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	holy shit. corporate memory is tricky, and not always a good thing. but these kids need to be reminded who nixon was, and in a hurry. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

01-31-2005, 05:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	Since when did kids become censors, oppressors and deniers of basic American Rights? Is it a product of societal pressure, a willingness for uniformity and a desire to not stand out that makes these kids want to stifle freedoms? Is it our homogenized society of non-conflict and uniform corporate commerce? Or are kids being taught intolerance for any kind of dissent and "rocking the boat" in any important way? What can we do? Well if you're a parent the answer is obvious. If you're not then display the freedoms we have...use the rights the Constitiution guarantees you. Create something that might be disapproved by others. Fuck, even burn a flag if you gotta. Yes, I know that statement pisses some of you off. But if you accept that I have a right to say and do just that, then you are not the problem. Show the youth what their rights are by practicing them daily. The alternative is not pretty. __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

01-31-2005, 06:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	That's funny because federal tax dollars don't pay for education, it's local and state funding. But federal tax dollars are constitutionally levied and provided to pay and sustain (gasp) a military, mind you a military that has soldiers in the field in two different theatres. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-31-2005, 06:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The point being is that education and civil services aren't meant to be sustained by the Feds, it's the job of the local and state government. It's not Bush's fault that kids today are fucking morons, and that the progressive thinking morons think the quick and right fix is always more money. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-31-2005, 09:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Who is to blame for this? Who is responsible for this social retardation? I have never been more embarassed to be young than I am right now. I only hope these people are able to com to their senses before it is too late and they are left in charge.

01-31-2005, 10:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Interesting poll raveneye. I wonder what unpopular views the 83% of students are so worried about. I suspect they are concerned with pro-racism and pro-sexism but I'm just guessing. No matter what their concerns are, this is sad. Maybe the question was asked in a leading manner or something. I can't believe so many do not believe in a free press.

01-31-2005, 10:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's our job to teach these kids just how important these freedoms are, and what could happen if they take them for granted. Ignorance won't be bliss if they allow freedom to slip away.

01-31-2005, 11:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	WHAT THE FUCK? This is absolute nonsense. Press goes to far? Students think the ability to critize government should be restricted? We as a country are doomed if they're in charge one day.

01-31-2005, 01:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Social retardation indeed. It would seem the propaganda machine has been running overtime.

01-31-2005, 03:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
drakers Psycho Location: IOWA	I feel old because I'm saying this but I am scared of the future if this is what our youth really thinks. Restriction of the "free press", what the hell? That is why our education system needs to be overhauled, not enough money goes to teaching our kids.

01-31-2005, 06:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	That's funny also since Bush was sure spewing about his no child left behind "act" making up standards for everyone but in the end he doesn't back them up. And who's to say someone can't sponsor a bill to make the federal government invest in educating it's citizens. Mabye then they'll know what the first amendment is and mabye they'll actually gasp WANT to go and fight to protect it.

01-31-2005, 07:27 PM	#21 (permalink)
greytone Junkie	This survey really frightens me. It appears that the NEA is doing a good job of indoctrinating their students without teaching them about what this country is all about. I think that both the right and left is responsible for this. The left has taken political correctness to ridiculous extremes. College campuses are not places where conservative thought is allowed in some cases. The right thinks that banning flag burning somehow is a good thing without understanding that the ban itself is more harmful to the flag and what it represents. The religous right is busy trying to protect us from thoughts that could endanger our souls (or maybe they just don't trust themselves and need to limit their rights in order to not be tempted). We have become very polarized and we are increasingly more intolerant of those who disagree with us. We tend to marginalize those who oppose us and anyone who disagrees is "extreme." With this mindset it is easier to think that limiting the speech of extremists is acceptable, since what they have to say is not valid anyway. When is the moon colony going to start accepting applications? __________________ I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing. Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

01-31-2005, 08:08 PM	#22 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	I find it interesting that it was posted that parents, teachers, and the media are responsible, yet more vitriol is directed at teachers so far. Interesting because I'm a teacher. Interesting because the federal government DOES fund education. They can't legislate it, but they fund it. NCLB is the result of this. Since the federal government can't legislate, they use funding as a carrot stick to entice school systems to obey their whims. Schools desperately need the money; otherwise, NCLB would have been embarrassingly ignored. Now, there are millions of teachers doing a horrendous job educating kids. How in the hell can I teach my students civic responsibility when they walk into my classroom convinced that the capital of the United States is Illinois? They're fifth graders and they don't have a damn clue about anything regarding their nation's history or it's form of government. Not a one of my students can tell me what the president's job is. I try, but it's an uphill battle with 10 ton weights tied to the bumper. /end threadjack. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

01-31-2005, 09:09 PM	#23 (permalink)
Lockjaw Junkie	Well what do you folks expect? We have a generation that was taught that saying anything controversial like racism,sexism, etc is wrong and tantamount to heresy. And we also have a generation of kids that have grown up on some of the most irresponsible journalism in general ever. They know enough to know these things are bad but they aren't smart enough to realize that even bad things are protected under our laws.

02-01-2005, 10:05 AM	#24 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	my experience with university students has indicated to me that they are, in the main, much more conservative now than they were in previous times. much more locked into the status quo as a necessary horizon for thinking, much less equipped to relativize the existing political and cultural orders....as i have long assumed this was among the central points of conservative educational policies, i cannot say i am surprised, but i am saddened by it. it is not good to see servility knit into kids understanding of the nature of their world. not good for them----not good for anyone, frankly. the idea that this would be reversed by civics classes, in this political climate, with the right at the wheel, is a pipe dream. i would think that, in this climate, all these classes would do is further naturalize the pathology of nationalism, and this during a period when its relevance is becoming increasingly tenuous. future policy makers will have to figure out ways to think out from under its history. way to go--the oedipal route--blind yourself and inflict your blindness on kids. at least that way, those who blind themselves do not have to worry so much about unfortunate questions being raised-----hell, why should they be? their progeny are afraid to ask them. yes, this is definitely the way to go. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-01-2005, 12:00 PM	#25 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	I'm so glad i'm not the only one that is noticing a very conservative trend towards college kids and campuses in the past few years. I used to consider my own college a bastion of liberal thought in the deep south until 2000 when it seems every right wing fundamentalist church group decided to open up and pressure the school into admitting a lot of people who previously would not be interested in attending...but mostly, i've noticed a lot of students with just an apathy towards anything and it really is scary to me, considering i'm not that far removed... __________________ Live. Chris

02-01-2005, 12:23 PM	#26 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	first, I think it's part of a natural cycle - I don't like it, but I recognize we're still shifting right after the sixties / seventies. the rebels will be back en force soon enough...regardless of your political position, in times of heavy military activity like this, i'm not surprised to see conservative philosophy growing...maybe it will springboard a shift back to the left before all is said and done. trust your government my ass... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-01-2005, 02:25 PM	#28 (permalink)
irseg Junkie Location: Florida	It would be interesting to know why these students want to see government oversight of the press. A lot of right-wingers would want to see leftist views, things they consider immoral, and anti-US stories to be censored. On the other hand I've heard plenty of leftists claim that right-wing columnists use sexist/racist "hate speech", promote hatred of other countries, etc., and call for them to be restricted for not being politically correct. So I wonder who's more responsible for this mentality.

02-01-2005, 02:46 PM	#29 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	I tutor high school kids in the evenings in math and science. I just returned from a session with a 12 year old. At the end he was telling me a story about a friend of his that had a GPS unit that allowed the government to track him. I said, "Huh, GPS just tells you your position. It's not a transmitter." He: "Yes it is, it has a transmitter that tells other people where you are." Me: "No, it's just a receiver that picks up satellite signals." He: "No, if you have a GPS unit, it tells the government exactly where you are." Me: "Why would the government need to know exactly where you are?" He: "The police need to know, in case you commit a crime." Me: "So everybody who has a GPS unit is being tracked by the police?" He: "Yep" I agree that kids today are much more conservative than they used to be, maybe more conservative than ever before in this country. And that probably means that they'll be even more conservative as they get older . . . . . .

02-01-2005, 03:01 PM	#31 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	An original comment is "Who is responsible" Here is my order of responsibility: Teachers -> We entrust them with our children to educate them about our society, government, history etc etc... This includes constitutional rights and freedoms. It is imperative that in a theater of learning these ideals be transmitted. Teachers are the ones most responsible for this. Peer Group -> During adolescence, kids spend more time with their friends than with any other group of people. If different, unpopular, or deviant ideas aren't voiced or when they are they are shunned, kids learn that deviant ideas are dangerous. Family -> It all comes back to the family. While watching the news, identifying propaganda and other ideas which hurt the effectiveness of your Constitution is central to the Socialization process. __________________ Feh.

02-01-2005, 11:17 PM	#34 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Not at all. I think that the general conservatism and support for this wartime situation is a direct result of of the type of environment young adults today grew up in. The magazine article I posted focuses on the upper class extreme, but one of the reasons it does so is that if that's the extreme, the childhoods that they experience are also being experienced, to lesser degrees, by those in, say, the middle classes as well. (Not surprisingly, the lower class involves an entirely different dynamic, at the other extreme). Having grown up in a middle class home and having gone to school with a range of kids from middle class to upper class, I am quite inclined to agree with the observations of the article (which I will try and summarize a bit in a second, for the lazy or time-challenged ), and many of the discussions and other readings which I have taken part in for my class on political socialization actually address this very question. So then, the basic point is that young adults today have lived in a time of growing structure and certainty in their worlds. They have no real recollection of a Cold War. The one significant conflict they experienced in their developmental years was a cakewalk - a videogame as some have come to call it. Their lifetime (up until the past few years) was filled with general economic success. On the more specific level, parenting has been more protective than ever. Don't believe it? I just learned this past weekend that, in this area at least, one is supposed to (by law) use a child seat when driving their child up to the age of EIGHT. Children's parents make "play dates," structuring even their recreation time. The entire existence of most middle class children and up has been, to varying degrees, (dare I say it) marred by structure and deferment to authority. They simply never grew up with any real reason to learn to question authority. That's why I have such an interest in the future high school and especially college students though - the ones we will see 4-6 years from now. These children are experiencing the Iraq war and recession during a time period that can have a profound effect on their political development. So, we'll see. But when I think about the majority of people in college today - whether it be from the lower middle class or the upper class - and I observe people who are all too willing too defer to authority, lack critical thought, and are in love with structure and certainty. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

02-02-2005, 01:27 AM	#36 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	i believe it has been pointed out time and time again that most people who are online are more liberal thinking, hence the left swing of tfp, fark, etc, with a few very outspoken conservatives. go to the colleges, takl to the people in person and you'll find a right wing swing to the students these days. __________________ Live. Chris

02-02-2005, 06:33 AM	#37 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Well, lacking critical thought, defering to authority, etc doesn't mean that someone is going to be a conservative either. In fact, it can take place equally on both sides of the political spectrum. I think it's a bit silly to try and associate these traits to only one political group. It's equally likely that a person who is raised by Democratic parents and in a Democratic environment will fit into those descriptions, only in different ways. When you try and seek easy answers, you're only going to get dumb ones. And when I read Fark, etc, I see people (on both sides mind you) who spew off talking points that they heard from someone higher up in their realm of political thought. No, I don't see any innovative thought there. Most of these debates occur within the status quo, and that is the point that is to be made. People are all willing to voice their opinion, so long as it's not very likely that it will harm their place in the "system." When faced with real decisions, they back down. How many students today would protest and stand up for what they believe if their school were to tell them "If you do this, your grades will be lowered," or "If you do this, you will be suspended." Not many at all. It sounds like you're looking for some simple explanation or description, but there isn't one. There are a number of different factors that go into someone's political development, and most of it has to do with HOW one approaches issues, not what political party they associate with. And, today, students are extremely conservative in their approach, whether they identify with the left OR the right. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 02-02-2005 at 06:41 AM..

02-02-2005, 07:36 AM	#38 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	smeth is very right about all this...i think such headlines really ought to capture our attention when we think about how we want to raise our kids. and not just politically, but holistically. one of the most important things you can train a child to do is to make decisions. it's also one of the hardest and most frustrating...but its such a gift to give that kid the ability to make mistakes, learn, and become an independant moral agent....instead of a talking point reciter. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16