Rekna

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4180087.stm
Ok before anyone takes this as proof realize that this is mearly speculation at the moment. This journalist does have a lot of credibility and it is the only reason I posted it. I have a feeling we will have a better idea of the facts in the next few weeks. But before this happens I want to start a discussion on a couple of things. 1) Is this true? and 2) Assuming it is true what should be done about it?

Mephisto2

Is it true? Well, how can we know? I hope not. And I doubt it.

What should be done about it? I don't think anything could be done about it. If the Pentagon has commandos (I presume they mean Special Forces) operating in Iran it's at the behest of the White House.

Mr Mephisto

Mojo_PeiPei

Not much can be said about this. You have to be crazy to not know that a showdown is coming with Iran. For some reason I get the impression, and it could be that there congress was chanting death to America, they aren't going to give up their Illegal nuclear program. Before we argue about that, I must further throw in the fact that it is illegal by the same international law that North Korea violates, non-proliferation, and that it is NOT cool if Iran gets nukes.

I would rather have our boys on the ground preparing now, getting the right information, so that if and when we go in there our boys will be that much better off that will result in less loss of life all around.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Willravel

I suppose we'll just have to wait for it to die off or for conformation. I wouldn't be surprised either way, to be honest. If we have agents in Iran, it's probably just to keep an eye on Seyyed Ali Khamenei (we get oil from him).

Mephisto2

Absolutely right.

But there are many ways to go about preventing them getting nukes. Unfortunately the only proven method is military action.

But honestly, does anyone really believe the US will invade? It hardly has enough troops to police Iraq properly. This won't happen. At least not any time soon.

Surgical strikes (a la Israel maybe), but invasion? I can't see it.

It's a difficult one to call.


Mr Mephisto

Mojo_PeiPei

Invasion vs. Occupation, who knows?

I would hope that this time around the rest of the world assesses the threat and steps up to the plate. We don't need a repeat of North Korea 94' or WMD Iraq sanctions, let's be proactive and actually accomplish something.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Zeld2.0

The War currently in Iraq does not bode well not only for international problems but for military logistics as well. If there is a fullblown invasion then occupation, then there will most likely be a draft.

Mephisto2

Mojo, rest assured the rest of the world will absolutely, categorically NOT support a unilateral attack on Iran. If the US is hoping for that, then it's gonna have a long wait.

Most of the countries that opposed the invasion of Iraq now believe their position has been vindicated.

No WMDs
No direct link to 9/11
No terrorist training camps
Massive resistance (some say over 200,000 insurgents)
Ongoing "allied" casualties
Massive Iraqi civilian casualites
etc

I don't want to see Iran get a nuke either, but no one is going to support an invasion. Especially now after Iraq.

The only think I can see happening is the US feeding Israel intelligence and the Israelis sending in the jets to bomb the research sites.

I wouldn't like to see that either, but I've got no answer to this problem.

Unless you just believe them when they say they are not developing the bombs or let them have them and don't fuck with them any more (which is probably exactly what they want).


Mr Mephisto

Mojo_PeiPei

Problem with leaving it to Israel as like Operation Opera with Iraq, is that these nuclear sites are active, Iraq's was not.

I don't have a quick fix, but I would be for invasion rather then a bunch of crazy fundies who state sponsor terrorism having a nuclear weapon.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Zeld2.0

Which is a big reason why I hated the war in Iraq in the first place - yeah Saddam was an ass but I think he was a big reason why Iran was literally kept in check for a long time.

Saddam could keep bragging about his WMDs to deter Iran from doing anything - if anything, despite being a butcher, his strongarm tactics kept fundies out of Iraq and kept a check on Iran (that is after all why we supported him - he was a buffer and immediate check on Iran).

Indeed that is why I think Iraq was a mistake and a failure of realpolitik - why go after the guy that didn't have the weapons, that could've been used by us to deter our bigger enemies (and supporter of our enemies)?

Hell I think this whole time we were being played along by Iran - the entire idea that there were WMDs in Iraq was used to divert our attention, military, and resources on a non-threat over personal issues, ethics, and feelings from the real problem. We were played by them.

host

Yer joking......right? Sy Hersh is the guy who broke open Colin Powell's cover
up of the My Lai massacre. he's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. I would
trust what he says over Bush or Rumsfeld or Powell....anyday !

SecretMethod70

Part of me wonders if this is a trial balloon to gauge the publics reaction to action in Iran.

__________________
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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

SecretMethod70

Interestingly, I've read an article (about a year ago) which goes into great detail to show just that. And even more interestingly, it was in a free, uber-fundementalist magazine. (Hey, I had nothing else to do while I was waiting for the train and I was curious what it said).

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Zeld2.0

Which makes me wonder what happened there

jorgelito

I say no to invasion: Where would we stage it from, a free and democratic Iraq?

I think, given what little info we have now, we should go for surgical strike. Israel cannot participate (maybe private consulting or intel sharing): Their participation would be too provocative and enciteful.

Unfortunately, the whole "Iraq thing" did mess up our reputation and creditbility. Iran is the real threat we should have been preparing for in my opinion.

martinguerre

i sincerely hope not.

i heard diplomatic negotations described with a paraphrase of Churchill.

it's the worst option. except all the other ones.

__________________
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-John 3:16

Yakk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...392687,00.html

The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq has placed US forces on both sides of Iran. Iran also has a long coast adjacent to the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman.

Iran spends $4.3 billion USD per year on their military, only slightly less than North Korea. However, NK's GDP/capita at PPP is about 1,000$/year, while Iran is 7,000$/year. It has a half-trillion dollar economy and 70 million people in it, as opposed to NK's 30 billion dollar economy and 23 million people.

In many ways, Iran is the strongest of the Arab states. Their economy is twice that of Saudi Arabia's or Egypt's, and only Egypt has more people than Iran (and then only barely).

They are a pissant of a nation next to the USA. But, I don't know of a stronger nation that the USA has taken on in a direct military conflict since WW2.

Oh, and as an aside, I heard Iran has a bunch of carrier-killing cruise missiles apparently. No idea how reliable this data is.

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pan6467

I agree and I don't think Iran had to work very hard to do it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

guthmund

Exactly. What better place to stage the invasion of Iran, excuse me, the liberation of Iran than from a free Iraq (to the west) and free Afghanistan (to the east)? I can't imagine the anxiety Iran must be feeling now with the "Great Satan's" military on both sides of the country. Not that I'm jumping on the Iranian bandwagon, but I imagine it's quite unsettling all things considered.


Maybe I'm being super-cynical, but....

I find it funny that that Mr. Bartlett isn't saying what exactly is inaccurate or what conclusions aren't based on facts. It's like denying it, but not denying it.....

and...

Is this the standard response? I seem to remember this phrase popping up before the Iraq war and with North Korea.

*my head 'asplodes

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

pan6467

Could be we went into Iraq knowing the BS wouldn't fly but thought we'd scare N. Korea and Iran into submission and instead we now have them playing with nukes.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MacGuyver

I was watching this on the O'Rielly Factor tonight when I was on break at work (I cant change the channel... I HAD to watch the O'Rielly factor, fuckin dick.) There is absolutely no reason for action in Iran and I think if the Bush administration goes for this one, the fire that we are playing with is going to get ALOT bigger. There was also a bit on the show about "homeland terrorism" in which gang members made videos threatening to kill anyone who testifies against accused criminals.

__________________
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.
---Aristotle

Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me.
---John Fletcher

martinguerre

does ANYONE think we have the spare military capacity to take on Iran right now?

Bomb 'em. Sure...but do we have the ability to actually respond if this gets escalated?

if the status of the insurgency in iraq or the search for OBL in afganistan is any clue...so, we've got them surrounded. One man's pincer move is the other guy splitting your line in two. i'm not saying we'd lose to iran. but i am saying that we may get a lot more hurt than we've thought possible. for the sake of our troops over there...i pray this is nothing more than idiotic saber rattling.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Rdr4evr

As if Iraq isn't proving to be a more difficult task than originally anticipated...take Iraq, multiply it by 20, and you have Iran. Invading Iran would not only be an almost impossible task currently financially and militarily, but lack of allianceship will prove to be far worse than the "coalition" that has been produced in Iraq. Furthermore, America’s reputation will be considerably worse than it is presently (if that's possible). Most of humanity already labels the US as the "Great Satan", and who could blame them? If we invade Iran, I will likely go right along with that label myself, especially with the constant lies we were told about Iraq, and the failure it has proven to be. I truly wonder if Americans would be supportive of an Iran invasion if the time come. I say avoid Iran at all costs, the people don't deserve any bloodshed as they have enough oppression to deal with, and aside from that, it's an absolutely gorgous country and I would hate to see it be war torn.

Schwan

Certainly an attack on Iran seems like a possibility, especially since US forces are both in Afganistan and Iran. Initially I thought it would be impossible, but the reality has changed so much recently. Libya, Jordan & Egypt are becoming partners with the west, the African muslim nations are sustained by european turism, Lebanon is divided, Syria is poor, the Palestinians have their butts kicked by Israel on regular basis. The only thing that could go wrong, I think, is a muslim revolution in Pakistan against Musharaff. But the problem is with the sheer size of Iran - it's bigger and better armed than Iraq was. Besides, neither the US economy, nor the public opinion could take such a large scale war. Not any time soon, anyway.

tecoyah

One would hope the congress (which still must approve a declaration of war) would not allow such a move. It would likely be most detrimental to our country, financially and politically, to invade Iran. I would fear for the future of these United States should we do so.

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Mephisto2

I don't believe Congress would have to approve such a move. The Administration could surely say this would just be part of the ongoing war on terror which has already been approved. Furthermore, they could argue it isn't a declaration of war at all, but a surgical strike.

Mr Mephisto

JohnBua

How do you all feel about a Nuclear Iran?

Rekna

If this is one of Bushes goals he has 4 years to do it. I have a feeling if he does it the republican party would take a major hit next election.

roachboy

i know that the neocons have entertained the illusion that iran is next for a long time.
i know that a war seems to be the necessary precondition for public approval of far-right policies.
i would not be surprised to find tha hersh is correct.
i would not be surprised to see the bushites attempt to invade iran.
but it would be a fiasco.
iraq would be a day in the park.
it would be bloody lunacy.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

kurty[B]

I'm waiting for FoxNews to do a "Countdown to Declaration of War Against Iran!" I mean, once they do a countdown, we know that a week later it'll be declared, right? Right?

*sigh*

OFKU0

About the same as a nuclear U.S, a nuclear Israel, a nuclear N.Korea, a nuclear Pakistan, a nuclear India, a nuclear Russia, etc,..etc,..etc,...

This is just a shot in the dark, but maybe the U.S could try some extended good old fashioned diplomacy rather than deciding on an invasion built on bullshit intelligence like that concerning Iraq (See bullshit intel on WMD from Israel, Pakistan, Kuwait to name a few)

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roachboy

besides, the only thing the bushites seem good at is fabricating crises.
they are working on trying to do it relative to social security right now.
they are laying the premises for something parallel on iran.
no doubt the obsession with iran has to do with the "hostage crisis" and neocon vanity about american military hegemony.
they obviously do not learn quickly.
it is really a problem that these clowns remain in power.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cadwiz

It is odd that everyone thinks the insurgents are holding us back in Iraq. They are more of a pest that we are not allowed to hunt down and destroy, because of the collateral damage. We are trying to win hearts and minds, which is important, but at the cost of letting the insurgents live.

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Rdr4evr

How are we not fighting the "insurgents"? Also, it's a bit late to win their hearts and minds as plenty of "collateral damage" has been done.

Cadwiz

How are we fighting them? We are restrained to basically reacting to their attacks. There could be for more collateral damage.

__________________
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roachboy

you would also think that those who continue, for whatever unknown reason, to support this absurd war in iraq could at least find a less self-defeating expression than fighting for "hearts and minds"....it is not at though it is not tied to the last large-scale military fiasco the americans participated in...there, the assumption was that somehow burning villages and massacring civilians could be outweighed by various Important Projects--obviously a total failure. same thing is happening in iraq--for example, if the americans are working to win "hearts and minds" you would think that they would maybe have not stood by while the iraqi museum was looted or not put an arms depot in the ruins of bablyon or used naplam in the context of the fallujah action or....or....or....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cadwiz

I'm not sure how to take that, as the only thing I find objectionable is the massacre of civilians. I would not have a problem destroying a village, or city for that matter, that was supporting my enemy. I also believe the Fallujah fiasco was doomed from the start. You can't say for a week beforehand that you are going to attack, and expect it to work as desired.

Sorry for the threadjack...end.

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JohnBua

If we didn't have the hearts and mind of the average Iraqi, then why do the terrorist need to set up snipers at polling places? Why do they need to bomb mosques? If we lost the average person's heart and mind, why those tactics be needed at all by the terrorists?

roachboy

if you cant understand the absurd position the americans put themselves in simply by invading iraq--and then exacerbated by screwing up at nearly every step--because it still seems like the only plan they had was developed under teh assumption that wolfowitz was correct and that the americans would be greeted with smiles and flowers---then there is really nothing to be said.

you act as though folk were unaware that the americansupported saddam hussein's coup d'etat, supported his killing of iraqi communist party members, supported him against iran....you seem unaware that the americans amounted to a colonial presence well before bushwar got underway...

maybe try thinking about the american action in iraq as an occupation and you'd get further toward understanding the problem than you would trying to think about it in terms of the present absurd propaganda managed by the administration to sell its war to an increasingly hostile public at home, and a fractured, embittered population in iraq.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Rdr4evr

The soldiers seek out the Iraqis where they are believed to be or where they are predominately fighting and/or attacking, and eliminate them. Its a guerilla war, so in some cases, the Americans have to discover location of attack before taking action. I personally don't know standard military procedure, but I assume this to be the case, as the civilian and fighter death toll indicates. Either way, you can guarantee that we haven’t and aren’t going to win any hearts and minds.