Israel/Palestine - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Liquor Dealer · 05-20-2003, 09:17 AM

There are threads about Israeli war crimes. There are thread abot Palestinian war crimes. It seems that the entire world is concerned with the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict. When is this concern going to evolve into someone doing something about it. Why does Yasser Arafat still walk on the earth and breathe? The Middle East, for various reasons, most of which were caused by the west is now more of a threat to world peace than the Balkans prior to WW l. It seems that regardless of efforts made by any and everyone, one man seems to stand between the world and anything even approaching peace in the Middle East. The "Road Map" and any other plan devised is not going to succeed as long as Arafat is derailing the efforts being made by everyone else. I think that it would relatively easy to deal with this issue (or perhaps allow someone much closer to take care of it).

Your turn

Dragonlich · 05-20-2003, 09:53 AM

Well, I think Arafat alone isn't the main problem.

A bigger problem is that there is no single Palestinian voice; some want to have peace at any cost, others want peace *and* security for Israel, others want Israel gone altogether, and yet others want to kill each and every Jew on the face of this planet.

If Arafat wants to stop the terror, he has to go up against the hardline groups like Hamas. This is extremely difficult, because a) they have a lot of fanatical supporters, and because b) they're not only terror groups - they also fund schools, hospitals, and many other *good* things. If he does attack them, he'll be seen as a traitor by many Palestinians, and he'll probably be killed pretty damn soon. (Of course, he has other reasons not to attack - he probably makes a lot of money because of all this crap.)

On the Israeli side the problem is less severe; they don't have a single voice either, but on the whole they're less extreme. There's a small minority against any peace at all, but these groups do not have such a large following as Hamas does, for example; nor do they control large parts of the civil infrastructure.

How would we end this cycle? Well, one could try a dual approach; 1) send in the big guns to deal with the terrorists (*all* of them, including that annoying Hamas leader with his squeaky voice). This will be bloody, brutal, and very nasty. (I suggest we also shoot any moron that thinks terrorist can be persuaded to stop fighting just by asking them nicely...)
2) send in independent aid shipments and install an entirely new civic structure... remove the terror groups from their supporters, and give the rest of the Palestinians a chance to live. One cannot, however, expect the Israelis to just let the Palestinian workers back in; not while there are many potential suicide bombers hiding amongst them...

gibber71 · 05-20-2003, 10:03 AM

I think Yasser Arafat should be taken out,but then again ,there are lots of world leaders I can say the same about. Unfortunately,the Isreali's can't do it since the entire world is supposedly in support of a broad anti-Isreali conspiracy, and well, that would certainly be the end of Isreal.

The 'road map' won't work as long as both the Isreali's and Palestinian's disagree on everything.One chance for peace would be to have the Americans and British patrol every inch of the disputed territories for decades leaving out any dialog between either side.In other words,tell the Isreali's and Palestinian's they have failed and now have no say whatsoever. But this won't happen.

The 'road map' in alot of ways,at least from my perspective is like putting two kid's who hate each other in a room and leaving one cookie on the table.Will they share the cookie and be rewarded with more cookies,or will they fight over that one cookie knowing that they may not get another one? Chances are they will fight, since that is the setting they have been exposed to.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 10:32 AM

I think it is important to remember that Arafat is the founder of the original "hardline" terrorist group, the PLO. He pulls the strings of terror. He needs to go.
I don't know of any Israeli group that is against peace- they all want peace. A small minority thinks that the Palestinians should be transferred to Jordan, and many think a Palestinian state would be mortally dangerous to Israel/lead to war, as do I. There are Israelis that aren't willing to compromise, but that isn't the same as not wanting peace. The Israelis don't want to destroy anyone, they just want to be left alone.

I don't know about Abbas- on the one hand, he is a PLO vet, and has been tied to the Munich massacre. If he actually is serious about ending terrorism, and would actually want a state, but not to destroy Israel, he should be supported. His intentions are hard to gauge however, as to strive for real peace would be to go against the PLO covenant. I think Israel should be permitted to completely wipe out the terrorist infrastructure, kill Arafat, and deport anyone linked to terror. Any Palestinians who would abandon terror, and accept the permanent existence of Israel should be helped to build a real infrastructure and economy, so they won't be dependent on Israel, and given autonomy. I think statehood is begging for WW3, and woud also only be appeasing terrorism at this point, thus creating more of it.

Liquor Dealer · 05-20-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gibber71
..............
The 'road map' in alot of ways,at least from my perspective is like putting two kid's who hate each other in a room and leaving one cookie on the table.Will they share the cookie and be rewarded with more cookies,or will they fight over that one cookie knowing that they may not get another one? Chances are they will fight, since that is the setting they have been exposed to.

I'm not to sure that in this instance that they wouldn't crush the cookie and no one would get anything. I understand exactly what you are saying - maybe if we took these two kids - moved them to another town.....

Dragonlich I agree totally with your statement that Arafat isn't the only problem. I think the problems on the Israeli side (and I assume you are talking about Sharon) would be dealt with by either the problem itself or by the Israeli people if they thought there was a chance at success.

crumbbum · 05-20-2003, 01:54 PM

What do you see as the main problems on the Israeli side at this point? I think that it would be hard to know what, on that side, would get in the way of peace, since Israel hasn't really had any chances at a secure peace yet. I am inclined to think that if there were such elements, that they wouldn't really become visible until real chances for peace were possible, which I don't really feel they are now (and won't be until Palestinian leadership is totally overhauled, Arafat removed, and the society de-brainwashed).

Dragonlich · 05-20-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Dragonlich I agree totally with your statement that Arafat isn't the only problem. I think the problems on the Israeli side (and I assume you are talking about Sharon) would be dealt with by either the problem itself or by the Israeli people if they thought there was a chance at success.

Actually I was *not* talking about Sharon. Sharon seems to be right-wing, but he seems like a reasonable guy. I was talking about the extremist religious groups, the settlers, and the Israeli nationalists. You know, the guys Sharon has to involve in his government if he wants to maintain a majority... Those guys are the real danger on the Israeli side. But luckily, they're small groups.

crumbbum · 05-21-2003, 01:31 PM

Sharon himself is an Israeli nationalist. I also have observed that the settlers are stereotyped as fanatics. I'm sure some of them are, but they have definitely been misrepresented I think in a lot of ways. I don't really blame anyone for not wanting to be uprooted from their homes. I think the religious fanatics are probably settlers, but that doesn't make all settlers fanatics. The groups in Sharon's government that are far right support transfer- the creation of a Palestinian state elsewhere than west of the Jordan, and the monetary support of any Palestinians moved. Admittedly, the word "transfer" sounds pretty bad. I think it is really a question of the actual viability of a Palestinian state next to Israel. Though I wouldn't agree with transfer as an obvious choice, looking at a map and considering what going on in Palestinian society currently I don't see how a Palestinian state next to Israel could result in anything but war. If I thought it would create peace, I would support it. What do you think?

gibber71 · 05-21-2003, 03:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
[B]I'm not to sure that in this instance that they wouldn't crush the cookie and no one would get anything. I understand exactly what you are saying - maybe if we took these two kids - moved them to another town.....

How about putting one in the Arctic and the other in the Antarctic....That would give their friends something to think about, I would think..

05-20-2003, 09:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Israel/Palestine There are threads about Israeli war crimes. There are thread abot Palestinian war crimes. It seems that the entire world is concerned with the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict. When is this concern going to evolve into someone doing something about it. Why does Yasser Arafat still walk on the earth and breathe? The Middle East, for various reasons, most of which were caused by the west is now more of a threat to world peace than the Balkans prior to WW l. It seems that regardless of efforts made by any and everyone, one man seems to stand between the world and anything even approaching peace in the Middle East. The "Road Map" and any other plan devised is not going to succeed as long as Arafat is derailing the efforts being made by everyone else. I think that it would relatively easy to deal with this issue (or perhaps allow someone much closer to take care of it). Your turn __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-20-2003, 10:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	I think it is important to remember that Arafat is the founder of the original "hardline" terrorist group, the PLO. He pulls the strings of terror. He needs to go. I don't know of any Israeli group that is against peace- they all want peace. A small minority thinks that the Palestinians should be transferred to Jordan, and many think a Palestinian state would be mortally dangerous to Israel/lead to war, as do I. There are Israelis that aren't willing to compromise, but that isn't the same as not wanting peace. The Israelis don't want to destroy anyone, they just want to be left alone. I don't know about Abbas- on the one hand, he is a PLO vet, and has been tied to the Munich massacre. If he actually is serious about ending terrorism, and would actually want a state, but not to destroy Israel, he should be supported. His intentions are hard to gauge however, as to strive for real peace would be to go against the PLO covenant. I think Israel should be permitted to completely wipe out the terrorist infrastructure, kill Arafat, and deport anyone linked to terror. Any Palestinians who would abandon terror, and accept the permanent existence of Israel should be helped to build a real infrastructure and economy, so they won't be dependent on Israel, and given autonomy. I think statehood is begging for WW3, and woud also only be appeasing terrorism at this point, thus creating more of it. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 01:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	What do you see as the main problems on the Israeli side at this point? I think that it would be hard to know what, on that side, would get in the way of peace, since Israel hasn't really had any chances at a secure peace yet. I am inclined to think that if there were such elements, that they wouldn't really become visible until real chances for peace were possible, which I don't really feel they are now (and won't be until Palestinian leadership is totally overhauled, Arafat removed, and the society de-brainwashed). __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-21-2003, 01:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Sharon himself is an Israeli nationalist. I also have observed that the settlers are stereotyped as fanatics. I'm sure some of them are, but they have definitely been misrepresented I think in a lot of ways. I don't really blame anyone for not wanting to be uprooted from their homes. I think the religious fanatics are probably settlers, but that doesn't make all settlers fanatics. The groups in Sharon's government that are far right support transfer- the creation of a Palestinian state elsewhere than west of the Jordan, and the monetary support of any Palestinians moved. Admittedly, the word "transfer" sounds pretty bad. I think it is really a question of the actual viability of a Palestinian state next to Israel. Though I wouldn't agree with transfer as an obvious choice, looking at a map and considering what going on in Palestinian society currently I don't see how a Palestinian state next to Israel could result in anything but war. If I thought it would create peace, I would support it. What do you think? __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

05-20-2003, 09:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Well, I think Arafat alone isn't the main problem. A bigger problem is that there is no single Palestinian voice; some want to have peace at any cost, others want peace and security for Israel, others want Israel gone altogether, and yet others want to kill each and every Jew on the face of this planet. If Arafat wants to stop the terror, he has to go up against the hardline groups like Hamas. This is extremely difficult, because a) they have a lot of fanatical supporters, and because b) they're not only terror groups - they also fund schools, hospitals, and many other good things. If he does attack them, he'll be seen as a traitor by many Palestinians, and he'll probably be killed pretty damn soon. (Of course, he has other reasons not to attack - he probably makes a lot of money because of all this crap.) On the Israeli side the problem is less severe; they don't have a single voice either, but on the whole they're less extreme. There's a small minority against any peace at all, but these groups do not have such a large following as Hamas does, for example; nor do they control large parts of the civil infrastructure. How would we end this cycle? Well, one could try a dual approach; 1) send in the big guns to deal with the terrorists (all of them, including that annoying Hamas leader with his squeaky voice). This will be bloody, brutal, and very nasty. (I suggest we also shoot any moron that thinks terrorist can be persuaded to stop fighting just by asking them nicely...) 2) send in independent aid shipments and install an entirely new civic structure... remove the terror groups from their supporters, and give the rest of the Palestinians a chance to live. One cannot, however, expect the Israelis to just let the Palestinian workers back in; not while there are many potential suicide bombers hiding amongst them...

05-20-2003, 10:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	I think Yasser Arafat should be taken out,but then again ,there are lots of world leaders I can say the same about. Unfortunately,the Isreali's can't do it since the entire world is supposedly in support of a broad anti-Isreali conspiracy, and well, that would certainly be the end of Isreal. The 'road map' won't work as long as both the Isreali's and Palestinian's disagree on everything.One chance for peace would be to have the Americans and British patrol every inch of the disputed territories for decades leaving out any dialog between either side.In other words,tell the Isreali's and Palestinian's they have failed and now have no say whatsoever. But this won't happen. The 'road map' in alot of ways,at least from my perspective is like putting two kid's who hate each other in a room and leaving one cookie on the table.Will they share the cookie and be rewarded with more cookies,or will they fight over that one cookie knowing that they may not get another one? Chances are they will fight, since that is the setting they have been exposed to.

05-21-2003, 03:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liquor Dealer [B]I'm not to sure that in this instance that they wouldn't crush the cookie and no one would get anything. I understand exactly what you are saying - maybe if we took these two kids - moved them to another town..... How about putting one in the Arctic and the other in the Antarctic....That would give their friends something to think about, I would think..