Good news from Russia - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

OpieCunningham · 10-24-2004, 10:53 PM

I'm posting the whole article because the Moscow Times has a habit of quickly archiving their articles behind their subscriber system:

Quote:

2,000 Protest the War in Chechnya

At least 2,000 people gathered on Pushkin Square on Saturday to call for an end to the war in Chechnya. It was one of the largest antiwar protests in years and also provided a rare public platform for broader criticism of President Vladimir Putin's rule.

Protesters listened to speeches from prominent antiwar figures and chanted slogans like "Peace in Chechnya!" and "Down With Putin's Politics!"

They held "No to War" balloons and signs that said "Putin Is Killing Our Freedom," but they also held posters of jailed former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky and photographs of people who died in the storming of the Dubrovka theater in 2002.

Saturday's protest acquired an extra sharpness because it fell on the second anniversary of the beginning of the Dubrovka hostage crisis.

The protest, which began under gray skies at 4 p.m. and lasted for about two hours, was organized by For Human Rights and the Committee for Antiwar Activities and supported by the Committee 2008.

Lev Ponomaryov, head of For Human Rights, focused attention on Putin's plans to scrap elections for regional governors and abolish single-mandate seats in the State Duma.

"If the authorities don't hear us, if the State Duma votes for legislation that we consider a constitutional coup, then we'll gather again," he said on Ekho Moskvy on Saturday.

There was some debate about how many protesters showed up. Ponomaryov said there were 2,500 to 3,000. City police, who had 200 officers on hand, counted about 2,000 protesters, Interfax reported, citing city official Sergei Vasyukov.

But in any case the number of participants was well higher than anticipated, Vasyukov told Interfax, noting that organizers had predicted around 500 people would show up when applying for permission to hold the rally. Vasyukov complained that this made providing security difficult.

Speakers included prominent human rights activist Valeria Novodvorskaya, journalist Anna Politkovskaya, State Duma Deputy Oleg Shein of Rodina and Vladimir Kara-Murza of Committee 2008.

Politkovskaya, a journalist for Novaya Gazeta who negotiated with the hostage-takers during the Dubrovka crisis, addressed the crowd from the podium and above a sign that read, "Five Years of Putin, Five Years of War and Terror, Enough Already!"

"Someone has to stop shooting first in this war," Politkovskaya said. "The residents of our country should demand this of the Russian authorities. Only in this way can we create peace in Russia."

The protest also drew participants angry at the increased role of the security services under Putin and the proliferation of criminal cases they see as politically motivated.

Several participants brandished signs reading, "Free Russian Political Prisoners," with a list that included Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev, Alexei Pichugin, Mikhail Trepashkin and Igor Sutyagin.

Yukos billionaires Khodorkovsky and Lebedev are facing charges of tax evasion and fraud in a case seen as retribution for Khodorkovsky's political ambitions. Pichugin, a former Yukos security chief, pleaded not guilty earlier this month to charges of organizing a 2002 double murder linked to the besieged oil major.

In May, Trepashkin was sentenced to four years in prison in a case that he and human rights advocates said was retribution for his investigation into allegations linking the Federal Security Service to the 1999 apartment bombings.

A Moscow City Court jury found Sutyagin, an arms control researcher at the USA and Canada Institute, guilty of treason in April for selling information on nuclear submarines and missile warning systems to a British company that the FSB claimed was a CIA cover. Sutyagin maintained that he drew his information from publicly available sources such as news reports, and that he had no reason to believe that the British company was linked to U.S. intelligence.

Interfax reported Saturday that central district authorities were dismayed that some participants and speakers -- citing specifically Novodvorskaya -- strayed from the antiwar message and encouraged general anti-government sentiment. Novodvorskaya wore a sign around her neck that read "Putin Is Not Yeltsin's Successor, But Rather Andropov's," referring to former KGB chief and Soviet leader Yury Andropov.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...10/25/001.html

We'll have to wait and see if this Russian protest will affect any change, unlike the millions that had protested the Iraq war here in the States. But I have more faith in the Russian populace ability to affect change in their gov't, atleast over the last 15 years, then I do for the populace in the United States. Maybe I should say that I have more faith in the Russian gov't accepting the need for change then I do for the gov't of the United States.

Ustwo · 10-24-2004, 10:56 PM

Glad to see you back.

Now this is good why again? Not why you don't like fighting wars vrs terrorists, but why is it a good thing?

Now I find the protesting good as a general thing in Russia, democracy is fragile there, but why specificly would Russia pulling and giving up be a good thing?

OpieCunningham · 10-24-2004, 10:57 PM

Because they wouldn't be "pulling and giving up" anything other than the continued incorrect action they've been stubbornly proceeding with.

Mephisto2 · 10-24-2004, 10:59 PM

Opie and I disagreed on some specific issues concerning the war in Chechnya (and more accurately, the description of Russian activities as Stalinist), but it's undoubtedly a very vicious and unjust war.

That's why protesting against it is a good thing.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 10-24-2004, 11:34 PM

Isolation rears its ugly head
"Don't fight back for wars I dread"
"Lets all hold hands and feel good instead"
But in the next great war we may all be dead

Goodnight and may your god go with you.

OpieCunningham · 10-24-2004, 11:42 PM

It's hardly compelling when all wars are compared to a Great War instead of taking them on their individual merits (or lack thereof, in this case).

Superbelt · 10-25-2004, 09:28 AM

Democracy isn't fragile in Russia, it's literally dead. Putin is already all but a Czar and is expected to proclaim himself President for life sometime in the next several months.

Bill O'Rights · 10-25-2004, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

...and is expected to proclaim himself President for life sometime in the next several months.

Where did that come from?

Superbelt · 10-25-2004, 10:02 AM

Heard it on NPR. The president of, I believe, Bulgaria did that exact thing and Putin is supposedly using it as a test before he does it himself.

Superbelt · 10-25-2004, 10:10 AM

Came from this story

Quote:

All Things Considered, October 22, 2004 · A former aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin called this week for the country's constitution to be changed to allow Putin to run for a third term in office. Although the Kremlin was quick to dismiss the remarks as a personal view, NPR's Lawrence Sheets reports from Moscow that there's a widespread belief Putin plans to stay in power.

There is of course, more to it. You can listen to it at the link.

irateplatypus · 10-25-2004, 10:15 AM

glad to hear protest is alive in russia. any sign of democratic life is a good sign in that country.

i couldn't help but chuckle at opie's original post though. just because the government didn't bow to some people standing outside holding hysterical signs doesn't mean that our government is deaf to public opinion. i've spoken with some people who are into that scene... they always come off a bit arrogant. as if our elected officials not bending to whatever hippie power they can muster is a bad thing all the time.

protest has its place, but the most effective protest is at the ballot box where everyone gets their say and everyone is counted... regardless of how many colors are in their rainbow wig.

Lebell · 10-25-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Came from this story

There is of course, more to it. You can listen to it at the link.

I heard that same story.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Ustwo · 10-25-2004, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I heard that same story.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

And such will be Russia's test.

It takes more then claims though, hell there were people who wanted to change it so Reagan could run for a third term.

Kadath · 10-25-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

protest has its place, but the most effective protest is at the ballot box where everyone gets their say and everyone is counted... regardless of how many colors are in their rainbow wig.

If democracy is dead and Putin just declares himself President-for-life, the voters will be somewhat disenfranchised, wouldn't you say?

Lebell · 10-25-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

And such will be Russia's test.

It takes more then claims though, hell there were people who wanted to change it so Reagan could run for a third term.

Exactly.

When his troops asked Washington to be King, he refused, instead putting his support behind the idea of a democratic republic.

Superbelt · 10-25-2004, 02:09 PM

The Soviet Union's sudden collapse was such a horrible thing for that region. All of a sudden all the infrastructure and social programs that held everyone together were suddenly gone. Relative lawlessness prevailed and cultural friction which was long held in check by the totalitarian regime resumed. Gorby would have been better to follow the system China is under. A slow and gradual move in certain sectors of the economy towards a more free market. They can continue to move in that direction as generations go by and rather than a sudden jolt, China may one day find itself a republic. Russia has been an utter mess since 1991.

irateplatypus · 10-25-2004, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

If democracy is dead and Putin just declares himself President-for-life, the voters will be somewhat disenfranchised, wouldn't you say?

i would say. trying to figure out where you're headed with this. i think you mistook some of my post that was aimed at domestic protest culture and thought i was talking about russia. sorry if i was unclear.

Ustwo · 10-29-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Gorby would have been better to follow the system China is under.

unnecessary comment removed and 24 hour time out issued.

Schwan · 10-29-2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Heard it on NPR. The president of, I believe, Bulgaria did that exact thing and Putin is supposedly using it as a test before he does it himself.

Surely you mean Belarus? President Lukashenko brought down the limit on the number of times one could be voted for president a few weeks ago. It used to be two times, now its as many times as he likes. Considering the fact that he is thought to manipulate all elections, it would mean that he will stay president forever. Though he hasn't brought down the election system just yet, so technically, he's not even close to some of the worlds current dictators.

Superbelt · 10-29-2004, 11:01 AM

Belarus? That could be it. I heard the report on NPR, I posted the link to the full audio report here, but didn't have a chance to listen to it again. Belarus is probrably it, I just got them confused.

bling · 10-29-2004, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwan

Surely you mean Belarus? President Lukashenko brought down the limit on the number of times one could be voted for president a few weeks ago. It used to be two times, now its as many times as he likes. Considering the fact that he is thought to manipulate all elections, it would mean that he will stay president forever. Though he hasn't brought down the election system just yet, so technically, he's not even close to some of the worlds current dictators.

Saddam had those kinds of elections.

But then again, Saddam isn't a current dictator.

To a degree, the U.S. has those types of elections - the manipulation of the election system by two parties, both appealling to the lowest common denominator. You could say that atleast we don't allow a single man to become a King - but it's debateable whether that is much worse than LCD as King.

10-24-2004, 10:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Glad to see you back. Now this is good why again? Not why you don't like fighting wars vrs terrorists, but why is it a good thing? Now I find the protesting good as a general thing in Russia, democracy is fragile there, but why specificly would Russia pulling and giving up be a good thing? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-24-2004, 11:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Isolation rears its ugly head "Don't fight back for wars I dread" "Lets all hold hands and feel good instead" But in the next great war we may all be dead Goodnight and may your god go with you. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-25-2004, 10:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	glad to hear protest is alive in russia. any sign of democratic life is a good sign in that country. i couldn't help but chuckle at opie's original post though. just because the government didn't bow to some people standing outside holding hysterical signs doesn't mean that our government is deaf to public opinion. i've spoken with some people who are into that scene... they always come off a bit arrogant. as if our elected officials not bending to whatever hippie power they can muster is a bad thing all the time. protest has its place, but the most effective protest is at the ballot box where everyone gets their say and everyone is counted... regardless of how many colors are in their rainbow wig. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

10-24-2004, 10:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	Because they wouldn't be "pulling and giving up" anything other than the continued incorrect action they've been stubbornly proceeding with.

10-24-2004, 10:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Opie and I disagreed on some specific issues concerning the war in Chechnya (and more accurately, the description of Russian activities as Stalinist), but it's undoubtedly a very vicious and unjust war. That's why protesting against it is a good thing. Mr Mephisto

10-24-2004, 11:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	It's hardly compelling when all wars are compared to a Great War instead of taking them on their individual merits (or lack thereof, in this case).

10-25-2004, 09:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Democracy isn't fragile in Russia, it's literally dead. Putin is already all but a Czar and is expected to proclaim himself President for life sometime in the next several months.

10-25-2004, 10:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Heard it on NPR. The president of, I believe, Bulgaria did that exact thing and Putin is supposedly using it as a test before he does it himself.

10-25-2004, 02:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	The Soviet Union's sudden collapse was such a horrible thing for that region. All of a sudden all the infrastructure and social programs that held everyone together were suddenly gone. Relative lawlessness prevailed and cultural friction which was long held in check by the totalitarian regime resumed. Gorby would have been better to follow the system China is under. A slow and gradual move in certain sectors of the economy towards a more free market. They can continue to move in that direction as generations go by and rather than a sudden jolt, China may one day find itself a republic. Russia has been an utter mess since 1991.

10-29-2004, 11:01 AM	#20 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Belarus? That could be it. I heard the report on NPR, I posted the link to the full audio report here, but didn't have a chance to listen to it again. Belarus is probrably it, I just got them confused.