jcookc6

I guess he was an Altar Boy for other reasons!
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NEWS RELEASE No. 2

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

DE FIDE 1223 Wilshire Boulevard, PMB 346 Santa Monica, CA 90403 Tel: (310) 917-2719 Fax: (310) 496-2843 secretary@defide.com www.defide.com

SEN. JOHN KERRY “EXCOMMUNICATED,” ACCORDING TO VATICAN RESPONSE
Kennedy, Harkin, Cuomo, Collins Denounced for Heresy

Monday, 18 October 2004

SANTA MONICA, CA – A Los Angeles based expert in Canon Law, the legal code used by the Roman Catholic Church, announced Friday on EWTN's the World Over Live with Raymond Arroyo that an important Vatican congregation has given an unprecedented boost to his case for heresy against presidential candidate John Kerry. Marc Balestrieri, JCL who has filed a formal case for Heresy against Kerry for his support of the right to abortion, revealed that he has received a written response prompted by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, affirming that Catholic politicians who persist in supporting the right to abortion are “automatically excommunicated.”

Mr. Balestrieri, Director of De Fide, said the Response was written by the Reverend Fr. Basil Cole, O.P., an expert theologian based in Washington D.C., who was delegated by the Undersecretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Very Rev. Fr. Augustine di Noia, O.P., to formally respond. As a result, the Response has encouraged him to expand his complaint to include four more pro-abortion Catholic politicians, both Democrat and Republican.

“I went to Rome in person to submit two critical questions to the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith,” said Balestrieri. “The first: Whether or not the Church’s teaching condemning any direct abortion is a dogma of Divine and Catholic Faith, with the denial or doubt of that dogma constituting heresy. The second: Whether or not the Church’s teaching condemning every right to abortion is a dogma of Divine and Catholic Faith, with the opposite error to that dogma heresy.”

In a four-page letter now posted at www.defide.com, Fr. Cole responded ‘Affirmative’ on both counts.

The Response is significant in that it represents the first time in modern history since Roe v. Wade in 1973 that such a clear reply is given to the Catholic faithful. Drafted under the auspices of the official Vatican Congregation with competency to decide doctrinal questions, it is entirely unambiguous and concludes:

“Consequently, if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the Church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy envisioned by Can. 751 of the Code. Provided that the presumptions of knowledge of the law and penalty (Can. 15, § 2) and imputability (Can. 1321, § 3) are not rebutted in the external forum, one is automatically excommunicated according to Can. 1364, § 1.”

Mr. Balestrieri, a political independent, has repeatedly declared that his actions come to defend the Faith and Holy Eucharist from sacrilege and scandal, not as one focused on an electoral outcome. Catholics confess to the real presence—the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of God Himself—in the Sacrament of Holy Communion. “As early as today, Sen. Kerry, and all pro-choice Catholic politicians, who publicly call themselves Catholic yet who blatantly violate Canon Law by continuing to profess Heresy and receive Holy Communion, must publicly reject their abortion advocacy for the sake of their own souls, and the others they have scandalized. They have been excommunicated.”

Balestrieri went to Rome in late August and met with a dozen experts, all of whom confirmed the threefold unprecedented nature and scope of his canonical action in Church history: that it is a formal complaint for reparation for harm due to heresy; that this is analogous to a Common Law class action; and that the complaint was initiated by a layman. (In the past such actions regarding heresy would have been handled by the "Holy Office" vertically downwards, and would never have reached this point.)

Lacking guidance from the Vatican, he sought an appointment and was received by an official of the Congregation in its halls in Rome. On September 9th, less than ten days later, the Rev. Basil Cole, O.P., contacted Balestrieri to inform him of his delegation to answer the two questions. Three days later, the written Response was issued.

The Response states that any Catholic who denies or doubts the two main conclusions, after knowing of their existence, commits Heresy. The Response holds that the dogmatic force of the two propositions is “manifest,” a term not lightly used by any theologian. This means that one is dealing here not with a matter of a theologian’s personal opinion, but with two core non-negotiable Articles of Faith. The Response, therefore, is “official” and binding in that it simply restates infallible teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, already stated unequivocally by Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the CDF, and Tarcisio Bertone, then secretary of the CDF, in their own commentaries to the Professio Fidei of 1998. Hence the Response’s rapid and forceful content.

The Response goes even further in specifying that any baptized Catholic who publicly states, “I’m personally opposed, but I support a woman’s right to choose,” is in fact presumed by Canon Law to be guilty of heresy, with the burden of proving that he is not shifted to the violating politician. A Catholic who publicly professes the right to choose heresy is automatically excommunicated, not by any declaration of the Church per se, but by the acts committed by the individual, and thus being in a state of mortal sin is ineligible to receive any of the Sacraments of the Church, including reception of the Eucharist, marriage, absolution from sin, and even Christian burial until the error is recanted and excommunication is lifted.

The often cited "Cuomo" defense, “I am personally opposed but I support the right to choose” has now been cut in half: A pro-choice Catholic politician who says that he is “personally opposed” to the ACT of abortion itself still commits Heresy by publicly supporting the civil RIGHT to choose abortion.

The fact that the Response was provided to a layman at the request of the Undersecretary, in writing, and in only eleven days is considered unique by numerous Bishops familiar with the matter. The extensive detail of the response, decisively clarifying the matter was unexpected. Normally, only a bishop may request such clarification of doctrine from the CDF and receive an official reply. Such responses usually take a much longer time to be received, and they are rarely made public.

Balestrieri also announced that the Denunciation for Heresy, a kind of lawsuit under the Catholic Church's Canon Law, filed against Senator Kerry is now pending before Kerry's bishop, Archbishop Sean O’Malley of Boston, according to the head of the Tribunal of the Archdiocese of Boston whom Balestrieri met with in person at the offices of the Metropolitan Tribunal at the end of July. The judge told him explicitly twice that the case had not been rejected, and that it was “now in the hands of the Archbishop.” At the same time, Balestrieri was informed that the Tribunal simply did not have enough time to properly handle the sheer number (thousands upon thousands) of Denunciations and Complaints from ordinary Catholics that have poured in by certified mail. He also clarified that the Archbishop had not yet decided whether to instruct the Promoter of Justice, whose job is similar to that of a prosecutor, to formally charge Kerry with Heresy or any of the five other ecclesiastical violations Balestrieri had denounced him for.

Balestrieri is asking all individuals and groups seeking to join his canonical actions, as a result of the Tribunal’s hesitation in handling the cases, for all future denunciations and complaints to be sent to Archbishop Sean O’Malley directly, in accordance with instructions which he will be sending out over the next few days, as posted on the DeFide.com website and sent to the thousands of supporters by e-mail.

With account taken of the developments and advice received while in Rome, Balestrieri has now decided he is able to broaden the actions he has filed to include other notoriously pro-abortion Catholic politicians of both the Republican and Democrat parties. Apart from amending his Denunciation and Complaint against Sen. Kerry to include the Response, four additional Denunciations and Complaints have been filed against Sen. Ted Kennedy (D) of Massachusetts; Sen. Tom Harkin (D) of Iowa; Mr. Mario Cuomo (D), former Governor of New York; and Sen. Susan Collins (R) of Maine. They have been filed today in the five Ecclesiastical Courts of the five separate Dioceses of Boston (MA), Fall River (MA), Des Moines (IA), New York (NY), and Portland (ME). Balestrieri said the four have been chosen based on their consistent, extensive, and public pro-abortion records.

Balestrieri has appealed for the thousands of joinders to be vigilant for procedural updates and specific canonical instructions which he is sending out this week.

Contact: secretary@defide.com or www.defide.com for more information.



NEWS RELEASE No. 1

July 1, 2004

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Marc Balestrieri – (310) 917-2719 Total of (3) pages Website: www.defide.com E-Mail: news@defide.com

Heresy Lawsuit Filed Against John F. Kerry

LOS ANGELES, CA – An international non-profit association, De Fide (“of the Faith”) announced Thursday that its Director, Marc Balestrieri, J.C.L. has filed a Dual class-action Denunciation and Criminal lawsuit at Canon Law for the crime of Heresy against presidential candidate Senator John F. Kerry. The action, normally under the highest procedural secrecy, was filed before the Ecclesiastical Court of the Archdiocese of Boston headed by Archbishop Sean O’Malley on 14 June 2004.

Five other criminal counts are alleged in the Denunciation and Criminal Complaint: Diabolical Scandal Leading to Heresy; Formal and Immediate Cooperation in Heresy; Sacrilegious Abjection of the Holy Eucharist; Diabolical Scandal Leading to Murder; and Grave Harm to Public Morals and Contempt for the Faith and Ecclesiastical Authority.

The charges alleged are extremely grave, account taken of the fact that the Code of Canon Law provides for automatic latae sententiae Excommunication in the case of two of the six crimes alleged: Heresy under Can. 1364-1 CIC, and Abjection of the Sacred Species (Holy Communion) under Can. 1367.

The alleged Heresy is the “Right-to-Murder” doctrine directly contained in the “pro-choice” position supporting abortion rights. The Catholic Church considers all direct and voluntary abortions as simply another form of murder, condemned by the Fifth Commandment. It is the professional opinion of DE FIDE, based on 2,000 years of constant Christian teaching, most recently encapsulated in Pope John Paul II’s Encyclical Evangelium Vitae of 1995, that the doctrine promoting the right to directly procured abortion is a heresy in every canonical and theological sense of the term.

The suit comes less than two weeks after the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops formally warned Catholic politicians who support abortion rights to refrain from receiving Holy Communion. The Bishops’ statement, however, stopped short of ordering Catholic bishops and priests to deny Communion, leaving the decision to withhold the Sacrament a matter of personal choice for each Bishop and his diocese.

The case is unprecedented in the history of the American Roman Catholic Church in three ways:

First, it is a lawsuit for Heresy, a public Ecclesiastical crime under Cc. 751 and 1364 of the Code of Canon Law. Moreover, never have the five other crimes alleged in the Complaint, especially Sacrilegious Abjection of the Sacred Species carrying the penalty of Excommunication reserved to the Holy Father, ever been adjudicated before.

Second, it is a Class-Action Criminal lawsuit. Never has a complaint been filed specifically alleging an aggrieved class, either acting in principal position, or as third-party joinders. The notoriety of Defendant’s actions easily support such a class. Canons 128, 1596, and 1729 of the Code permit an unlimited number of third-party aggrieved joinders to attach themselves to the complaint.

Third, it is a Dual-Denunciation for Heresy and Criminal Complaint for Heresy, not just a denunciation, which has never been done before, to the knowledge of experts, anywhere in the world, in living memory, in a vertical movement proceeding from the laity. The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is usually the entity which investigates and tries suspected heretics. As stated by the Rev. Arthur Espelage of the Canon Law Society of America, this case is “truly unique…a nuclear missile.” Cfr. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...1108-2541r.htm

Mr. Balestrieri decided to publicize the suit after having waited to see the statements and results of the Bishops assembled in conference in Englewood, Colorado. A graduate of the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome, the oldest of Jesuit universities founded in 1551, he is fluent in five languages. He has practiced Canon Law both part-time and full-time for ten years. He currently is serving as a Defender of the Bond, Associate Judge, and Advocate for his home Tribunal.

Although some practitioners of Canon Law have stated that the Archbishop in the instant case has no obligation to prosecute the Defendant as a result of a mere denunciation being filed, after reviewing the Complaint, the same practitioners agree with DE FIDE that as this Denunciation has been filed simultaneously with a Bill of Complaint for the Repairing of Harm, the Archdiocese of Boston, or the Vatican, does have an obligation in justice and at Canon Law to decide the case. The Judge, once having received the libellus litis with a “semblance of the truth” of the facts alleged in the case, must proceed either by 1) judicial trial, or 2) extra-judicial decree.

The Plaintiff decided to risk his career and reputation for the sake of doing what he thought was an obligation and duty in conscience to defend the Faith and the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist from attack and sacrilege, no matter what the cost. This decision was directly based upon three considerations:

First, the binding teaching of the Instruction of the Vatican on the Holy Eucharist, Redemptionis Sacramentum, promulgated this year: Article 183. Let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be defended from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out, etc.

Second, the grave lack of disciplinary measures mandated by Canon Law not being enforced by various Bishops vis-à-vis openly defiant Catholic politicians, in the instant case, Defendant John F. Kerry.

Third, in the most grave matters of a Life-Threatening Heresy promoting the “Right-to-Choose” Abortive Murder, and continuous Sacrilegious and Contemptuous reception of Holy Communion, the faithful are compelled to take action if their Pastors won’t

rukkyg

Religion is retarded. Especially this one.

Mojo_PeiPei

Wow, what an informed and enlightened response.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

cthulu23

The Vatican hasn't excommunicated Kerry. This post is just a wishful interpretation of a Vatican statement. One has to wonder whether the poster is sincerely concerned with the state of Catholic law or if they simply want to smear Kerry at every opportunity.

MSD

Now that is separation of church and state.

I know it's a misinterpreted article, but I really wanted to say that.

jonjon42

bah I really really wish the bishops would shutup. Seriously, I remember when they didn't have as much media outreach as they do today. They would preach to the flock (I'm Roman Catholic) but not have as big a media precense as let's say...the christian coalition. I think this is a silly grab for attention.

__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

SecretMethod70

I just want to point out, as a Catholic, that the stupid bishops you hear in the media are, as usual with any religion, a vocal minority. Sad really, and it pisses me off because they make the rest of us look bad.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

FoolThemAll

I think it's a good thing. But I don't really care about it all that much.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Ustwo

Well this sort of thing should have been done from the start. The Catholic church got WAY to wussy over the years, which has lead them to a path of irrelevance and scandal.

I'm no longer Catholic, but come on, if you think abortion is KILLING BABIES, then its not a 'church and state' issue. Its murder and they should have stood up to it a lot stronger then they did. “Abortion is wrong but we let unrepentant babies killers be members of the church” isn’t going to inspire anyone. In an attempt to stay relevant and with the times they gave up the moral high ground and made themselves less relevant.

This being said I don’t think the article means anything beyond some hype.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Halx

Yeah.. like an opressive self-hating organized religion is gonna sway MY vote....

Kerry wasn't gonna get it anyways!

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Locobot

Where were the people demanding catholics who supported the Iraq war, which the pope pleaded against, be excommunicated?

Superbelt

And the Death Penalty.

Why are Pataki and Guiliani not being threatened with Ex-Communication? They are both Pro-Choice, Catholic, politicians....

Ooh yeah. They're Republicans

rukkyg

Anything for the informed and enlightened catholic leaders.

seretogis

Harkin is a Republican too. If you took the time to read the article you'd know that.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

SiNai

Bush is all for the death penalty, why aren't the bishops condemning him to hell?

__________________
I can't seem to remember now
What it was like- to live life, before you.. symbiont

maypo

WOW! The catholic church who couldn't be bothered to remove pedophile priests holds to the high moral ground, who can take this seriously? As previously noted the bishops don't care about the death penalty or war, or how the living live, who cares what they think? They are making themselves irrelevant.

FoolThemAll

The pope was wrong on the war.

I agree with the death penalty being unChristian, and I'm fully against it. But it's a speck of dust next to a beach ball compared to abortion.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

roachboy

in general terms, this has as much to do with john paul 2's desire to recreate the olde days of top-down command, in which directives travelled from rome and catholics followed.

which would get rid of the problems associated with the american catholic church in particular... you know.....having diversity of opinion must be irritating if you understand yourself as infallible in spritiual matters.

remember this is the same guy who shut down liberation theology, the only important movement to develop within cathlicism in 200 years, because he thought it communist. this is an absurd, reactionary pope, whose politics follow in kind.

but at least he is consistent: unlike american conservatives, who would endorse this ridiculous canon law suit and ignore john paul's
condemnation of the invasion of iraq
his opposition to the death penalty
and the weak pleas he is in a position to promulgate on the dignity of the poor
(weak because of the silencing of liberation theology)

which would mean that, despite the reactionary nature of john paul 2, at least he is not a hypocrite.
shame you cant say the same about american conservatives--particularly if you keep in mind the protestant fundamentalist core of their constituency, for which cathlocism is not christianity.

a pox on both their houses

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

SecretMethod70

This too shall pass. It's a handful of conservative Catholics trying to politicize things and raise a big stink. Nevermind that Catholic voters tend to be Democrat.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Dane Bramage

Oh... I like Kerry even more now!

I have absolutely no respect for the Catholics or anything they say.

Let them take responsibility for their own crimes before they point fingers at someone else.

SecretMethod, I know what you will probably say (vocal minority), but I am referring to maypo's post. If they actually lived up to their own laws, then I might at least be able to respect them. As it is... they have no ground with me.

And to bring it back to Kerry... our Pro-Choice legislation is very important to me, so this is even more reason to support him.

edit: My distaste for the Catholics is for the organization not the people that worship. I have no in born hatred for the guy living next to me that might be Catholic, but an organization that systematically protects pedophiles is repugnant to me.

__________________
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules — and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
Kurt Vonnegut - Sirens of Titan

Lebell

A non-issue for me either way.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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smooth

hehe, yeah, what's good for the goose...

pan, why not file suit against people supporting the war or death penalty?

This episode was started by a layperson; trend starters sometimes regret what they create...

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

I love how people lump the deliberate killing of children out of the selfishness of the mother on the same plane as the death penality.

Mind you I am playing devils advocate, I don't care about abortion and the problem with the death penality is we don't use it enough.

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MSD

Come to any church in my town and tell them that.

Ustwo

I think for older catholics this is true in a good part. JFK being catholic was a big deal back then, and many of the trade unions seem to be heavily catholic as well.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cthulu23

Are you sure about your stance on abortion? The inflammatory way in which you phrased your description of abortion certainly belies your message.

Kalibah

ArchBishop Raaymond Burke of SaintLouis said because of his stances on abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriages- he would not give communion to him...

thats almost as bad

Rodney

Anything on EWTN (Eternal World Television Network) is tainted. They're ultra-conservative Marianist Catholics, headed and often hosted by Mother Angelica, the Nun You Didn't Want To Have For Homeroom. Before my cable provider dropped it, I used to watch -- not for laughs, but sort of a clinical study of how sick and hate-filled any religion can become in the hands of the wrong people. I don't think much of the Catholic hierarchy, but compared to Mother Angelica and the EWTN crowd, the Pope is a gay Episcopal bishop.

cthulu23

What do you mean by "bad?" Bad that a "man of god" is selectively enforcing aspects of church doctrine so as to influence an election or bad in the "Kerry is EEVVVILLLL" sense?

Kalibah

My theory is Abortion is the killing of INNOCENT life. Death Pentalty is not.


In "faithful citizenship" and recent bishop letters to parishoners it is noted that war and death penalty are not intrinsicly evil, and there are cases when it is justified, Abortion, samesex marriages and stem cell research are not.


John kerry preaching hes a catholic, when his stances are NOT that of the catholic church needs be be brought up by the MSM. Also to note is calling George W. Bush's stances " right wing idelogy" is almost insulting to a Catholic, because it is what the church and its doctrine teaches. To flaunt being a catholic and "choir boy" in the debates, while insulting us at rallys, and taking stacnes clearly NOT that of our church is wrong.

cthulu23

Vatican doctrine condemns the death penalty no matter what a single bishop says and the Catholic church has condemned the Iraq war. Doesn't supporting either make you a religious hypocrite? Or are you breaking from church doctrine? If so, I hope that you show patience for others who do the same.

See above statement....we wouldn't be harboring any anti-Catholic stances ourselves, would we?

Kalibah

Abortiion is one stance that the church makes itself very clear on, no ifs , and or buts.

John Kerry ( to my knowledge) isnt against the death penalty. He is FOR gay marriages, FOR stem cell research, and FOR abortion


and I am not a supporter of the death penalty- I never said I was... so how you made that connection is beyond me- i simply stated a theory that some use to present pro-deathpentalty arguments

seep

I agree. It really seems to me like any pro-choice politician should be excommunicated if abortion is really to be considered baby-murder. The moral of the story is that Catholicism is nuts.

cthulu23

Well, he definitely isn't for gay marriage. He's made that clear.

You made a statement that seemed to downplay the Catholic Church's condemnation of the death penalty which read like a defense of the practice to me...my mistake.

As I mentioned before, it isn't quite honest to condemn a man for calling himself Catholic and breaking with church teachings when you yourself also disagree with some Catholic beliefs. I don't like to post about such deeply personal issues as your personal faith, but that is the truth.

Kalibah

Thats the problem though. The Faithful Citizenship calls for Catholics to help make law reflect our moral belief. I can pull out a page and quote if needed. John Kerry on the otherhand does not. He can't pay the Catholic card, and then go against it - thats all im saying. He brought this into play by calling catholic beliefs " right wing ideologies" - and thats the problem. He cant have it both ways- cant flaunt the "choir boy" title, and citisize it at the same time. Im not saying that John Kerry is or isnt a catholic, Im simply saying his views DO NOT REFLECT THAT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - right wrong, good or bad, ironincally the President, who is not a roman catholic- has views more in line with the persons that john kerry is trying to prove he is one of.

cthulu23

Some of your own views "DO NOT REFLECT THAT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH." How can you criticise Kerry for actions that you, yourself mirror? How can you play the Catholic card?

Almost all of Bush's beliefs are "right-wing ideologies." Simply because there is some crossover with some Catholic beliefs doesn't make that statement untrue.

Kalibah

My views? As i stated above I oppose the death penatly, Im pro-life, Against stemcell research , and I wasnt in favor of the war ( though I realize now it was necessary). So how do my own NOT REFLECT THAT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
and
He was refering to stem cell research in that particular quote of " right wing ideologies"

Ustwo

Its called empathy.

If you think abortion IS murder its pretty easy to state it harshly. Abortion is killing babies.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Kalibah

Yes- its hard to see how anyone- at the least- could lift the ban on partial birth abortions- as no doubt kerry plans to do. If its 6 inches inside the body its abortion, 6 inches out and its murder...

cthulu23

Support for the war flies in the face of the Pope's statements and, as such, does not reflect the views of the Catholic Church.

That doesn't change what I already said. Just because there is overlap between a (American) right-wing ideological belief and a Catholic belief does not negate either of those labels.