neutone

It seems that this forum is dominated by US members, it may be interesting to see how non Americans feel about the candidates/election.

Just about everyone I know sees red at the mere mention of Bush, is there anybody outside of the US that feels he should continue his "leadership"?

Rdr4evr

I remember watching a 20/20 type broadcast several weeks ago (maybe it was 20/20) and they said that 80% of non Americans around the world want Bush out of office. He is easily the most hated man on the planet right now. I am going to look for a link and post it.

Quick link: http://www.whywehatebush.com/news/04_09_world.html

neutone

That sounds about right, outside of this website I can honestly say I've never once met a Bush Supporter. I have lived in UK, Germany, Bahrain and South Africa, and have been fortunate enough to travel around much of Europe + Middle East.
I really hate the guy.

daswig

Imagine that...an American who says "We don't care what you think, we've been attacked, so we're going to take care of ourselves, and screw you if you don't like it" isn't liked by the people he's basically telling to bite us as a nation.

George Bush was not elected to make the world like us. He was elected to act in the best interests of our nation, and to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

There's a reason why that 80% of the world population that hates America can't vote...now if we could just extend that courtesy to the Americans who hate America, the "treason is patriotic" crowd, we'd be much better off.

""Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged." --President Abraham Lincoln

Rekna

I think having the world like us is a cruical part in protecting the nation....

daswig

rekna, the world has NEVER liked us. During WWII, the Germans and Japanese REALLY didn't like us, since we were in a shooting war with them. Why should we care what they thought?

WRT the Iraq war, it's been pretty conclusively shown that Saddam was in fact paying politicians off in France and Russia, and possibly other places too, to prevent the invasion of his country and see to it that the sanctions were relaxed and lifted. Those countries weren't betraying the US by being bribed by Saddam, they were looking after what they saw as their own self-interest. They are NOT our friends.

The US has NO need to be liked by the rest of the world. We are what we are, and if they don't like it, they can kiss our super-sized ass. Our safety isn't a popularity contest.

neutone

That may be true, but compared to Clinton, Bush is actively alienating the rest of the world. He created an enemy, and recruits them every day with his actions. He is a truly super-sized ass. Your safety is being seriously jeopardised by him.

connyosis

Before Bush was elected, the US was respected. Sure, some people still disagreed with some things the US did, but they weren't hated like they are now. Bush has made everyone loose faith in the US, and I find that very sad. With Kerry as leader I'm hoping people might start to listen to you again.

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Lebell

This is an honest, non-flip answer.

We make those who have a propensity to like us, like us.

The rest we make to fear us.

That is the major victory of Iraq.

Those countries that have traditionally supported terror, especially in the Middle East, now know that there is a man in the White House that isn't afraid to take them out of power if they identify themselves as our enemy, as Afghanistan did by not handing over Bin Laden and Iraq did by the first Gulf war and repeated UN violations.

I see Kerry as being a guy big on doing the first part, but unwilling to do the second.

As to Germany, I note that they LOVE our money, even as they hate Bush. Maybe George should close ALL the bases over there, just so they don't have to take our filthy lucre.

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daswig

Neutone, so you're saying that OBL recruited his people, trained them, planned 9/11, and executed it all between the time Bush took office and when it happened?

The democrats gutted, and I mean GUTTED, our military. It's barely a fraction of what it was when Clinton took office. Why don't we have more troops on the ground in Iraq? Because the Democrats took the military from being able to deal with two brush wars and the Soviet Union invading Europe simultaneously to being unable to deal with one brush war effectively.

OBL's animosity towards America FAR predates Dubya's taking office. And Clinton taught the Terrorists that the SAFEST thing they could do was to attack American targets by treating their attacks as a law enforcement matter.

There are two main lines of thought in foreign policy now. There's the "walk softly but carry a big stick" approach, and there's the "If we surrender now, they will not attack us anymore, maybe" approach. The Big Stick approach is far more effective.

Trillions for defense, not one goddamned penny for tribute.

Kalibah

Let me say this.
Im an American, and as the oil for food scandal proceeds to become more clear, its obvious why people in Russia, France and Germany might be "upset" we went in. Their leaders atleast--- we cut off their source of bribes to reduce sanctions.

neutone

Daswig, I know you're right about terrorist activity brewing well before Bush, aside from the obvious jibe pointing out OBL's US recruitment and training, I abhor Bush's phenomenal lack of respect to the world to create a war based on lies, drag so many countries into it only to have their soldiers killed, their truck drivers beheaded etc. If Bush had not been the warwonger he is, it's true that the foreign policies would still be evoking animosity, but at least there wouldn't be the global dislike for America among your average global citizen.

Rdr4evr

That is exactly what "terrorists" want. It gives them even more reason to murder innocent people and have it justified because America oppresses them and their country. This in turn leads to more hatred around the world and even, maybe, just a bit more sympathy toward "terrorists". The “terrorists” want Bush to get re-elected to get their point across that America is the enemy. America kills our children. America attacks our religion, etc. If another 9/11 happens tomorrow, I think much less people globally would care much compared to the first attack because they feel Bush is doing the same to Iraq and fear he will do the same to Iran, N. Korea or Syria if he gets re-elected. To be feared is one thing, to be hated is another.

daswig

Neutone, are you familiar with what constitutes a casus belli? The US has had long-standing casus belli to go into Iraq. Every time they fired a missile at our planes after the cease-fire, they created another one. They sheltered terrorists who had killed Americans. We don't know for sure what contact existed between Saddam and Al Queda, but we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Iraqi government publicly admitted to sheltering other terrorists responsible for killing American citizens. Tariq Aziz held a frigging PRESS CONFERENCE about it while Saddam was still in power.

You say Iraq was a war based upon lies. Yet the recent CIA report documented at least 56 cases of our finding 1980's vintage WMDs in Iraq. Was Saddam producing WMDs during the 1990s? Best guess, no. Did Saddam still possess WMDs from his 1980's stockpiles? Well, they've found 56 so far, so that would be "YES". Did Saddam maintain the technology and the desire to produce WMDs? According to the report, yes, he did, and he was waiting for sanctions to be lifted to do so. The report stated that it would have taken him weeks to months to reconstitute WMD production. And Saddam was very actively working to get those sanctions lifted, by bribing damn near everybody in sight.

As far as our world-wide image, the "ugly American" stereotype has been around for decades. We're largely seen as spoiled, uncultured, lard-asses, and have been seen that way for a very, very long time. So before you say that Bush has made us globally disliked, please explain how the long-existing "ugly American" stereotype meant we were LIKED beforehand. Thanks.

connyosis

Dude I live outside the US, I know that the US was not this hated before Bush took over. Of course some people disliked you then as well as now, but in no way as much as nowadays.

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daswig

The hatred has always been there, it just has become more politically correct for people to voice that hatred now.

On the positive side, all that hatred means that if the Europeans get themselves into ANOTHER mess, and it's not in our interests to back them up, we can in good conscience tell them where exactly to go.

NATO is an alliance, and alliances work BOTH ways, it's not just America's job to back the other members up, they have an OBLIGATION to back us up too. As an American, I'll tell you that I'm getting pretty sick of having to put our asses on the line to defend Europe's interests, while they stab us in the back over and over again over something as stupid as large-scale bribery by people who hate ALL of us, Americans and Europeans alike. honestly, I'd like to see the US get out of NATO, and simply form another alliance with the British and Eastern Europeans who want our help. Let the French deal with the rise of the right in Germany...I'm tempted to quote Brecht, but nah, why bother?

connyosis

No, I'm telling you, the hatred has NOT always been there. The US has always been respected. Not necessarily loved, but not hated. People might have disliked some of the things you did, but in no way did the mock or hate you as they do now.

Bush is why this has happened. He didn't only lie to the american people about why he entered Iraq, he lied to the entire world. There were no WMDs, he knew that, he went in anyway. Yet some people seem to like to bend over and take it up the ass from him. When the US got attacked on 9/11 you had all the right to attack Afghanistan and capture Bin Laden, Europe had no problem with that at all. (Well I'm sure some nutbags thought it was wrong but lets just ignore them for now) It's when you went against the ENTIRE WORLD and entered Iraq, which had nothing to do with those attacks you got the world against you.

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daswig

How many WMDs did Saddam have to have to "have WMDs"? Isn't 50+ WMDs enough?

We went against the entire world? There were 30 countries involved to one extent or another. The "biggies" were the US and England. In Gulf War 1, care to guess who put up the majority of the troops?

We're in a war against terrorism. Not a war against some terrorists, but against ALL terrorists, and the nations that aid them. Saddam INDISPUTABLY aided terrorists. This is beyond doubt, since Aziz admitted so while acting as a spokesperson for hte regime.

I'll tell you what. If Saddam was so NOT an evil bastard that had to go, what would you say to the idea that the US reaches a deal with him, and puts him back into power? How well would that go over in your vaunted world-opinion poll??? If our war against him was so unjust, why isn't the world clamoring for us to do EXACTLY that? I'll tell you why...because the rest of the world knows we did what needed to be done, but they are too busy hating Bush to give him ANY credit at all.

I've travelled extensively all over the world on business. Europe, Asia, Africa, been there, done that. I'd put money on it that I'm far more well travelled than you are. Remember that when you accuse me of living in my "little world".

connyosis

Well I guess having travelled all over the world then obviously does not mean you know everything about the world.

50+ WMDs? Where the hell did that figure come from? Last time I checked THERE WAS NONE! The Bush administration even admitted that.

As for Saddam, I am not saying he was a good guy, he was an ass and I think most people will agree on that. People does not want Saddam back into power since he was a shitty leader, ok? The thing is though, you had no reason to go into Iraq, and I'm sorry to have to break this to you, Bush did not enter because he felt that the poor Iraqis needed your help, no matter what he wants you to believe. Diplomacy would have worked, even though Bush tries to convince the world it wouldn't.
Your own president lied to you and you think that's ok? It's a weird world indeed...

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KMA-628

connyosis -

The vintage WMD's were all over the news here in the states.

How old are you? I specifically remember years and years of public displays of American hatred. Does the name Reagan ring a bell? Your age has a lot to do with this argument, because this is not a new problem for us. Most of us have been dealing with it for decades.

If we were so liked, then what was up with all of the attacks against us in the 90's? Why were the Marines massacred in Beirut? What about the hostages during Carter? Vietnam?

This is not new, but I suspect, it is new to you.

Call me elitist, but I don't give a squirt what another country thinks of us. I hear all of the whining and complaining, then I look at the money/industry/military assistance/training/importing/exporting/etc. that they receive from the US.

Every country that is bitching and griping about our President being the devil would also be the first ones knocking on our door for help from the same man that they call the devil.

And guess what?

We would help them. Regardless of the bile that spews from their mouths.

Now, who is the better country?

We don't talk the talk, but we will walk the walk. We have proven it time and time again. And when help is needed, where do you go? To the country that talks or the country that backs up their words?

/I apologize in advance for the rant--this topic really grates on me.

kd4

All terrorists? You may want to rephrase that. Terrorists that threaten the US is more appropriate for this argument.

KMA-628

All terrorists are a threat to the US and it's Allies.

It is a semantical argument, but I would agree with daswig on this one. We are not going to let our "friends" hang in the breeze by only focusing on terrorists that directly threaten us.

My take on our position is: If you threaten our friends you are threatening us...yes....even France.

daswig

And you, a student who apparently have not travelled extensively around the world, somehow have a better grasp on the world than I do, a guy with a postgraduate degree, many years in business of a worldwide nature, and literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of miles of travel "under my belt"?

The 50+ WMDs were reported in the "fine print" of the recently released CIA report. The media is playing up the "no post-1991 WMDs" aspect of it, but is playing down the "a fair number of 1980's vintage WMDs" contained in the same report. You MIGHT want to read a little bit deeper before you start basing your political philosophy on media-reported soundbites.

As for our reasons to go into Iraq, I'd like to remind you of a few minor facts: 1. the 1991 resolution to go into Iraq was still in force. There was a cease-fire in place (you DO understand the difference between a ceasefire and a peace treaty, don't you?), but Iraq had REPEATEDLY violated the conditions of it. 2. You say diplomacy would have worked. 12 years had passed, 18 UNSC resolutions had passed, and Saddam was still non-cooperative. Were we supposed to wait until he died of old age? One of the terms of the ceasefire and earlier UN resolutions was that Saddam was to divest Iraq of ALL WMDS. Pre-1991, post 1991, it didn't matter, he was to get rid of them ALL. So far, 56 pre-1991 WMDs have been found. 3. Iraq INDISPUTABLY committed acts of aggression that qualified as casus belli under the international standard. They sheltered terrorists that killed Americans. They paid people to blow themselves up in Israel. They were, by ANY definition, a rogue nation.

I don't believe that Bush invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi people. He invaded Iraq to kick Saddam's ass, and Saddam deserved it. Once we were in Iraq, however, Bush decided to try and make things better. We could have simply slaughtered the Iraqi military, captured the people we wanted, and then pulled out, with our mission accomplished (which was "get Saddam"). Instead, we tried to do the right thing.

connyosis

Ok, I did not know about that. Have a link with any info about that? (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to see it for myself)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying the US has been loved by everyone, I'm just saying that the hatred has not been as strong before as it is now. Also yes, during Reagan years the US was disliked in many places, but it was still respected. People didn't mock or laugh at it as it is today. I myself like the US. It's a country with flaws but so has any country.

And to some extent I agree with you, your own country should be the highest priority, absolutely, but it's not a good idea to alienate the rest of the world, which is what has happened.

I'm not saying any country is better than any other, I hope my post didn't come out like that. The US has helped a lot of countries in the past, and for that they should be grateful. They also have stuck their nose where it does not belong sometimes, we have to remember that too.

I understand that, and I hope you don't think I'm some kind of US hater, I'm definatly not. I just really dislike some of the desiscions Bush has made, and I have nothing against the people of the US themselves.

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Halx

I like hearing what other countries think of us. It both further proves my insistance that our foreign policy sucks and that we are the only mainworld country on the planet to hold religion as an important aspect in who we elect as our leader.

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KMA-628

connyosis - As I mentioned, it is a sore subject for me, so I should probably drop it. I dealt with this issue personally years before Bush was in office, so I don't see it as new. I can't tell you how many US leaders have been burned in efigy in the past decades.

Anyway...

er, Halx - Aren't Muslim leaders "elected" based on religion? Could a Christian hold a position of power in any Muslim country? Or are they not mainworld? The U.S. isn't the only country, mainworld or not, to hold religion in high regard.

Halx

Just because we have company doesn't mean we should be proud of it.

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KMA-628

I was disputing your assertion stated here.

Anyway, I am pround that we live in a country where a Muslim, a Jew and a Christian can serve in the same government together. I think that speaks volumes as I do not know many countries that are as tolerant.

Halx

Unfortunately, only a Christian can hold the highest office. I'm not proud of that.

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OpieCunningham

It's interesting that when you look around at most other Western democracies, they do not depend and require such faith based leadership as we do here in the States - and yet, it was our country that wrote down the doctrine of seperation of church and state as a foundation of our government.

wnker85

Well most Americans are Christians, and when people vote the majority wins. So when another religion is in the hearts of Americans then the leadership will be as such.

And many countries have religious leaders. Even in Europe leaders are Christians. But, I do not think that we are hated because Bush and every other President before him goes to Church.

Halx

As I understand it.. and from the mouths of europeans, to invoke god during a political speech is a faux pas. I have no issue with the fact that people are religious.. just the fact that our presidents HAVE to be.

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thefictionweliv

I don't have much of a problem with someone calling on God in a political speech, I don't believe in a god, however like anything I cannot say with 100% certainty that he doesn't exist so if someone wants to call for help even from a higher power IMO it isn't hurting much.

Personally I could careless what a non-American thinks about our politics, because if it was the Eiffel in France getting nailed...we would respond...if it was Vatican city....we would respond...not to mention likely still recieve 90% casualties in the ensuing "coalition" operation. It would also be more than likely a president like Bush to do so. As many say if Kerry or Gore would be in office this wouldn't have happened. Just as if the attack hit somewhere else, we likely wouldn't have extended a hand had they been in office.

Kalibah

I dunno about that one
I'm still putting the W Ketchup on my freedom fries - and I think when this oil for food thing is more fledged out, those of you that arent " far right extremists" like myself might feel the same

thefictionweliv

I believe now the French may have crossed the line of future assistance however before if it was them we would have come to their aid. I think them not supporting our decision was a great slap in the face to the many living vetrans who prevented them from speaking German. Oh right....we got a statue, yeah, well I guess we can call it even.

neutone

Oh my god, the world could not stop laughing when 'Freedom Fries' happened.

Perhaps to re-enforce my intention with this thread, I wanted to know how non-US members feel about the elections and candidates. I think most of us realise that America is not a bad place full of lard asses (although I'm sure there are many Americans who'd disagree) and every American I know is great. I suspect that I like them because they are well educated and well travelled, and have had the opportunity to become global citizens with global experiences and international friends. Perhaps it's because they are open minded and cultured, and they embrace the world.

Every country has it's insular religious conservatives who resent change, don't like foreigners and have no interest in crossing borders, it's just truly mystifying when a country that is so pioneering, is governed by such a person.

Daswig, you can have a million miles but how many days, months or years have you spent abroad? Have you lived abroad?

almostaugust

This pretty much encapsulates what i think about the USA. Its not 'fun' or 'PC' to dislike the actions of the US, most other citizens of the planet are genuinely worried about it. Bush's behaviour really reinforces that negative stereotype of the arrogant/ignorant american. His actions would be comedic if they wernt so important. He really doesnt deserve to be the head of state of the most powerful nation on earth. Interestingly, all of the americans (some of the nicest/most friendly people i have met) i have met outside the US agree with me. Another thing that kinda scares me about the current climate is the lynch mob type patriotism.

daswig

I've never been abroad for more than 4 months in a single stretch. One year, I was overseas for 10 months total out of 12 months possible. As a SWAG, I'd say I've spent close to 5 years total overseas since 1986.

Rekna

Tell me who would be safer

Person 1:

KKK member living in harlem who openly displays his white pride but has a tun of guns in his house.

Person 2:

Person living in a suberb of some large city that knows all their neighbors well and invites them over often. Has a gun, everyone knows it, but no one ever sees it.

irateplatypus

i've been over both oceans for at least month's time time each since GWB has become President... this is what struck me about the perceptions of US politics:

except in rare circumstances, those people who i discussed US politics with were fairly ignorant. not in an unintelligent way, just in an uninformed way. granted, they were probably better educated on our politics than i was in most of theirs... but the opinions i heard were taken straight from their local news source.

and this is the problem: foreign news agencies are just aweful in their reporting of US events. the strain of anti-americanism may not be rooted in media reporting, but is certainly exacerbated by it. i remember sitting in a kyoto hostel watching cnn international (among the most american friendly international news outlets) thinking: if this is how foreign persons get their information about my country... no wonder they think the way they do! i can't comment on the quality of reporting on their own national issues, but i do know my country's politics and i know that they aren't being represented in with a balanced perspective abroad. if we expect to gain any international support for anything, no matter the cause, this issue must be addressed.

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