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Old 09-08-2004, 06:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Why are Islamic terrorists so damn cruel?

More deep thoughts by DY156:

I know there are several threads about the Chechnya tragedy, but I have a real question here. After 9/11, many said that us policies making the Islamic world were to blame for driving them to desperation and causing them to do things like that. There has been much talk about the chechen struggle for freedom from Russia, and how that could have caused the tragedy in the Breslan school. I think another question needs to be asked. Why are Islamic terrorists so evil, and cruel?
There have been plenty of revolutionary struggles for freedom, from the American Revolution to the IRA that used terrorist-like tactics. Yet until now, to my knowledge, no one has ever specifically targeted schoolchildren!
I know some might point out that Timothy McVeigh killed many children in his attack in Oklahoma City. Though I hate to even write the words, in his defense, he was targeting the federal building that was one of the best symbols for what he was trying to attack, and likely did not know there was a daycare there as well. The Chechens likely lost all support they may have (and even should have) had with this incident.

But I wouldn't ask such a broad question based on this event alone. Holding innocent hostages is one thing for a group protesting the "occupation" of their country to do. Broadcasting those hostages' beheadings is another. They kill them in the most gruesome, terrible way they can think of, and there are no better words to describe such acts than "evil" and "cruel."

I certainly don't even need to go into suicide bombers and planes into buildings too in order to justify this question, but those incidents also are acts of unimaginable cruelty to me.

I've said elsewhere that if I stereotype arabs or muslims, it is that they are doctors, based on the fact that many of the islamic people I know are rural doctors. Please don't think I'm being a racist or a biggot. Nor am I saying that Islamic people are the only bad guys out there now or in history, just that the way they protest, fight, and attempt to help their cause is so totally inhuman and foriegn to me that I don't understand it.
Is it a cultural thing? Is it hidden in or a misinterpretation of the Koran?
Just wondering.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Just some wild, completely uneducated guesses:

1. They're very, very desperate.
2. The Russians have killed countless chechyn children, possibly indirectly (starving, etc.).
3. More people would hear their cause if they attacked a school, which would eventually lead them to know about 1 and 2.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:07 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It's all perspective. In fact, they could take everything we do and apply it to us, just as we do to them.

To us, they seem cruel because they take hostages and behead people. In their eyes, we seem equally as cruel for all the screwed up things we do, like occupy their land (to them, it's important).

Beheadings are actually common there, and ISN'T cruel and unusual to them. It is to us. If they wanted to kill them in the most horrific way possible, they'd probably torture them for days on end instead of a swift slice to the neck. That's actually a pretty quick way to go.

The "terrorists" are just extremist freedom fighters who believe we're making their land impure and go about implementing their solutions in a WRONG way, just as we try to combat terrorism in the wrong way.

They're insanely religious, so while "impure land" doesn't mean much to us, it means everything to them, which is why they're willing to blow themselves up for their cause.

[edit]
nm, I thought you were speaking about the islamics in the middle east, not the Chechen rebels.
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Last edited by Stompy; 09-08-2004 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Der, because they're Islamic!

No not really, the question you ought to be asking is why are human beings so damn cruel?

Below are testimonials of people present at the events of Sandy Creek Colorado on the evening of 28th November 1864...



Quote:
There was one little child, probably three years old, just big enough to walk through the sand...I saw one man get off his horse...and draw up his rifle and fire, he missed the child. Another man came up and said, "Let me try the son of a bitch; I can bit him"...but he missed him. A third man came up and made a similar remark, and fired, and the little fellow dropped.
Major Scott Anthony, United States Army
Quote:
I did not see a body of a man, woman, child but was scalped; and in many instances their bodies were mutilated in the most horrible manner, men, women, and children-privates cut out, etc. I heard one man say that he had cut a woman's private parts out and had them for exhibition on a stick; I heard another man say that he had cut the fingers off an Indian to get the rings on the hand...I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females, and stretched them over the saddle bows, and wore them over their hats, while riding in the ranks.
First Lieutenant James Connor, United States Army
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukkyg
Just some wild, completely uneducated guesses:

1. They're very, very desperate.
2. The Russians have killed countless chechyn children, possibly indirectly (starving, etc.).
3. More people would hear their cause if they attacked a school, which would eventually lead them to know about 1 and 2.
Must not flame.......

1. They're very, very desperate.

And what did they hope to gain? International scorn? No they are cruel, they are evil, and they are quite stupid apparently.

2. The Russians have killed countless chechyn children, possibly indirectly (starving, etc.).

Countless being the key word, (and any count will be inflated). They targeted a school because it was an easy target and would have a nice emotional effect. Their problem of course is that Russia doesn't play games with terrorists and the terrorists knew this going in. They knew they would be killing children.

3. More people would hear their cause if they attacked a school, which would eventually lead them to know about 1 and 2.

Oh we heard about it all right. Personally if Putin decided to level their pathetic little country right now I wouldn't care, so again I don't think it has the desired effect. If anything it rallied the Russian people, and if there is one thin history has told us is don't give Russians a good cause for revenge.

Look around the world and face it, Islamic states and movements do not play well with others. Make all the excuses you want, but in the end there is no excuse.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:25 AM   #6 (permalink)
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To attribute such things purely to islamic militants isn't accurate. I'm pretty sure that the aftermath of any of america's bombing campaigns looks pretty gruesome too. I think the more important question is: Why do people support wars and then complain about the things that happen in wars? Beheading may seem horrible and tragic, but shit like that is par for the course in military conflict. You can bet your sweet ass that if american forces found a strategic advantage in beheadings we'd be first in line with a super high-tech beheading process engineered by some defense contractor. If you don't believe me ask yourself, how long after 9/11 was it that torture was being considered as a viable means to ensure our security?
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Honestly, in the end, is there really that big of a difference between a shell blowing your head off and someone cutting it off in the end? Different methods, same result.

Beheading was actually tradition out there and in truth, it was accepted even in the western world of Europe (notably the guillotine) until over 100 years ago.

Hell firing squads were around til a few years ago and can probably still be used - its all just a form of execution.

The better question isn't why so - and - so is cruel, its why people in general are cruel.

You can talk all you want about Islamic fundies and whatever, but when you think about your own backyard and your own country: there have been a lot of pretty damn sadistic and fucked up people. Whitman or whatever his name was in the early 60s who took out people from the balcony of the tower in Texas - not to mention serial killers, kidnappers who torture their victims - hell, those guys who randomly chose a black guy and chained him and dragged him with the truck would probably easily be under the cruel and fucked-up category of acts.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Yes there are bad people all over the world, but the Islamic governments and seperatists movements have organized such activities on a scale beyond what one wack job can do. They raise their children to be murderers, they celebrate acts of terror, they laud those who kill innocents. And yet, there will always be people making excuses for them.
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Indoctrination from an early age in certain cultures leads to irrational behavior.
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:24 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Yes there are bad people all over the world, but *snip* governments and *snip* movements have organized such activities on a scale beyond what one wack job can do. They raise their children to be murderers, they celebrate acts of terror, they laud those who kill innocents. And yet, there will always be people making excuses for them.

Much more accurate now, thanks for playing Ustwo.
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanofever
Much more accurate now, thanks for playing Ustwo.
Yes Nano, everyone is so evil out there and we are all so guilty.

Total BS liberal pap, but thanks for playing.

Edit: You know lets take a different track. I know its pointless with you but it will illistrate how wrong you are.

Imagine if after the next US hostage is taken in Iraq, the US forces were to take over a school in Iraq, demand the release of the hostage and threaten to kill the children. Lets say the Iraqis tried to recue the children and 400 of them were killed. What do you think the worlds reaction would be? What do you think would happen at home if that took place? We don't do that sort of thing and we would never allow ourselves to do so. We have come to expect it from the Islamic militants and it takes 400 dead kids to even make us talk about it. Buses, planes, restaurants, malls, night clubs, all barely make the paper because for them its NORMAL. This is what they do, this is who they are, and yet people like you make excuses for it, pass it off as 'normal' for all governments. Its a lie on your part, and your world view is at best distorted. They are savages worthy of the dark ages and you turn a blind eye.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 09-08-2004 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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ustwo:
from the posts of yours i have read this morning---in which, across different threads, you advocate the wolfowitz "plan" of bombing iran and syria; pronounce a series of cliches about islam in general (as a "culture of terror" as "indoctrinating children to hatred"--do you actually have any contact with any muslims? i do not see that you have the faintest idea what you are talking about...), and then here top it with the tired, false (in historical terms) opposition of evil islam versus nice christians (who, like yourself, seem too often willing to argue on racist grounds for something on the order of massacre, but that's ok---you are strong, you are righteous)...

so if i understand your very macho posts correctly, the logic goes: anything that speaks to the political causes for "terrorism" is "liberal pap" while your racist, uninformed hogwash operates as the legitimate response? quite the moral high ground you stake out here. not that different from cromwell his black and tan phase.

i assume you support bush for symmtery's sake.

or maybe this is some andy kaufman thing you are doing on a boardspace?
do you seriously believe what you post?
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes Nano, everyone is so evil out there and we are all so guilty.

Total BS liberal pap, but thanks for playing.

Edit: You know lets take a different track. I know its pointless with you but it will illistrate how wrong you are.

Imagine if after the next US hostage is taken in Iraq, the US forces were to take over a school in Iraq, demand the release of the hostage and threaten to kill the children. Lets say the Iraqis tried to recue the children and 400 of them were killed. What do you think the worlds reaction would be? What do you think would happen at home if that took place? We don't do that sort of thing and we would never allow ourselves to do so. We have come to expect it from the Islamic militants and it takes 400 dead kids to even make us talk about it. Buses, planes, restaurants, malls, night clubs, all barely make the paper because for them its NORMAL. This is what they do, this is who they are, and yet people like you make excuses for it, pass it off as 'normal' for all governments. Its a lie on your part, and your world view is at best distorted. They are savages worthy of the dark ages and you turn a blind eye.

Why bother taking over school buildings with small infantry units when you have the largest military in history and can use it to take over a whole contry? The US does the EXACT sort of thing you are describing; we simply do it on a much bigger scale.

Your analogy pretty much fits the Iraq II perfectly. The single hostage is 9/11 or WMDs. The school is the whole country of Iraq. The entire civilian population of Iraq fill in as the children; and much like your analogy, the entire world hates us for acting in such a brutish manner. A majority of the US population is against the Iraq war, just like your analogy. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/24/poll.iraq/) The only problem with the comparison is that the hostage you referenced were real, and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 nor did it have WMDs.

And of course, my world view is at best distorted.

Seriously Ustwo, rhetoric without a factual basis might work on stupid people or in a situation where people can't fact check but it fall flat on the internet. I would strongly suggest you take this kernel of information and put it in a very safe place for keeping.
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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Last edited by nanofever; 09-08-2004 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
ustwo:
from the posts of yours i have read this morning---in which, across different threads, you advocate the wolfowitz "plan" of bombing iran and syria; pronounce a series of cliches about islam in general (as a "culture of terror" as "indoctrinating children to hatred"--do you actually have any contact with any muslims? i do not see that you have the faintest idea what you are talking about...), and then here top it with the tired, false (in historical terms) opposition of evil islam versus nice christians (who, like yourself, seem too often willing to argue on racist grounds for something on the order of massacre, but that's ok---you are strong, you are righteous)...

so if i understand your very macho posts correctly, the logic goes: anything that speaks to the political causes for "terrorism" is "liberal pap" while your racist, uninformed hogwash operates as the legitimate response? quite the moral high ground you stake out here. not that different from cromwell his black and tan phase.

i assume you support bush for symmtery's sake.

or maybe this is some andy kaufman thing you are doing on a boardspace?
do you seriously believe what you post?
Roachy I have had more contact with Muslims then most, which is why I know its hopeless. I have open invitations to visit Egypt and Jordan and stay in peoples homes while I'm there. These are friends of mine I worked with for years and who I LIKE. I've spoken at length with citizens of the Sudan, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. These are the best of the best of the Islamic world, they are highly educated, and have seen more of the world then most. I spent all nighters with them, roomed with them, went out with them, met their families, taught them, and was taught by them. I offered to drive some of them home on 9/11/01 just in case there was any trouble.

I really like them as people, they are not terrorists, and the Jordanian is perhaps the most gentile man I know. That’s the good. Almost all of them but the Iranian have a totally false and warped knowledge of world history (the Iranian managed to leave Iran when he was age 20 and is quite western, he was threatened by the others but that’s another story). They talk of peace but think peace will only be achieved when the world follows Islamic law. They defend the taliban but knew nothing of the female executions (the women were very shocked by them, their state controlled media never would mention it at home). They say they have nothing against the Jews but talk of prophecy where the Jews are all forced into the sea and Israel is cleansed.

And what I've learned if this is the best the Islamic world has to offer and all but ONE of them thought this way, there is no hope currently. If these people who have stayed in the US for a number of years feel, what must the uneducated man on the street feel after he gets his daily dose of hate at the Mosque?

Months ago I posted a UN report written by Muslim scholars who were lamenting the poor quality and backwardness of education in the Islamic states. You don't have to look to hard to find out what happens if you try to express a dissenting view in these countries.

Until the Islamic nations become truly free, free to think differently, free to express themselves, free of religious oppression, we will face terrorists like we have been.
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:43 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Very nice post Ustwo.

I havent had the change to go abroad yet but have taken many Arab/Islamic classes. Written many reports, interviewed many esteemed professors, read coutless books, and talked to dozens of Arabs here at the University.

I came with almost the same conclusion. I do hold out hope for countries such as Lebanon and regions in Egypt. Outside of that the governments withhold knowledge to an extent we cant imagine. One of my Egyption friends gets in arguments with her family living in Syria, because the Syrian government keeps telling their people that 9/11 was caused by the Jews to insite America into a war against Muslims.

Every single one of the professors, people, and research that I've done has all said basically the same thing. While we should strive to understand the causes of the problem, in no way should we take their excuses for it, or hold them to a different standard.

Quote:
when you have the largest military in history
Do some research, we have a relatively small military, and that is comprised mostly of reservists. Most powerful I would agree with, but definately not the biggest.
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Seaver
Do some research, we have a relatively small military, and that is comprised mostly of reservists. Most powerful I would agree with, but definately not the biggest.
I will research your suggestion as long as you research mine. I will research the size of the US military in relation to the rest of the world, and you can research definition number three for semantics.


"se·man·tics Audio pronunciation of "semantics" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-mntks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

1. Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.
2. Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology.
3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semantics
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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Last edited by nanofever; 09-08-2004 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes Nano, everyone is so evil out there and we are all so guilty.

Total BS liberal pap, but thanks for playing.

Edit: You know lets take a different track. I know its pointless with you but it will illistrate how wrong you are.

Imagine if after the next US hostage is taken in Iraq, the US forces were to take over a school in Iraq, demand the release of the hostage and threaten to kill the children. Lets say the Iraqis tried to recue the children and 400 of them were killed. What do you think the worlds reaction would be? What do you think would happen at home if that took place? We don't do that sort of thing and we would never allow ourselves to do so. We have come to expect it from the Islamic militants and it takes 400 dead kids to even make us talk about it. Buses, planes, restaurants, malls, night clubs, all barely make the paper because for them its NORMAL. This is what they do, this is who they are, and yet people like you make excuses for it, pass it off as 'normal' for all governments. Its a lie on your part, and your world view is at best distorted. They are savages worthy of the dark ages and you turn a blind eye.
Assuming that the rebels took control of a school that wasn't on their side, your analogy would have to be applied to the form of the US taking control of a school for terrorists. Since, we already destroyed all of them as the first thing we did when we went in to Afghanistan, and there are none in Iraq, there are no schools to take control of. Sorry.
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
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it is quite sad to see "muslims" act this way. I use quotes around the word Muslims because a true person of the Islamic faith would know that if you are at war or are fighting somebody you never ever strike those who are not involved. Children, women, civilians these are noncombatants.

I am Muslim and I feel for the people in that area who are being opressed by the Russian army as well as their so called brethren who use them to get back at the Russian gov't. The phrase has been used time and time again:

Why can't we all just get along.
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:58 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dy156
More deep thoughts by DY156:

I know there are several threads about the Chechnya tragedy, but I have a real question here. After 9/11, many said that us policies making the Islamic world were to blame for driving them to desperation and causing them to do things like that. There has been much talk about the chechen struggle for freedom from Russia, and how that could have caused the tragedy in the Breslan school. I think another question needs to be asked. Why are Islamic terrorists so evil, and cruel?
There have been plenty of revolutionary struggles for freedom, from the American Revolution to the IRA that used terrorist-like tactics. Yet until now, to my knowledge, no one has ever specifically targeted schoolchildren!
I know some might point out that Timothy McVeigh killed many children in his attack in Oklahoma City. Though I hate to even write the words, in his defense, he was targeting the federal building that was one of the best symbols for what he was trying to attack, and likely did not know there was a daycare there as well. The Chechens likely lost all support they may have (and even should have) had with this incident.

But I wouldn't ask such a broad question based on this event alone. Holding innocent hostages is one thing for a group protesting the "occupation" of their country to do. Broadcasting those hostages' beheadings is another. They kill them in the most gruesome, terrible way they can think of, and there are no better words to describe such acts than "evil" and "cruel."

I certainly don't even need to go into suicide bombers and planes into buildings too in order to justify this question, but those incidents also are acts of unimaginable cruelty to me.

I've said elsewhere that if I stereotype arabs or muslims, it is that they are doctors, based on the fact that many of the islamic people I know are rural doctors. Please don't think I'm being a racist or a biggot. Nor am I saying that Islamic people are the only bad guys out there now or in history, just that the way they protest, fight, and attempt to help their cause is so totally inhuman and foriegn to me that I don't understand it.
Is it a cultural thing? Is it hidden in or a misinterpretation of the Koran?
Just wondering.
I am afraid that Islamic terrorists cannot claim a monopoly on cruelty, in my opinion anyway...I would say that the Nazi acts of terrorism against the Jews & Poles, and the Japanese attacks of terrorism against the Chinese sink many hundred of times lower than Al Qieda or the Chechen seperatists...

The reason to target school children is because it is one of the worst and most painful things that you can do to a community... if you cannot fight "fairly" and hope to survivem, then their logic is to strike in the most painful place possible... the people who die dont matter to them, they are just collateral... but I cant say I can consider it the logic of Islam, it is the logic of terror. Islam is by and large a peaceful religion in its essence (certainly no worse than Christianity or Judaism) - the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist of today is a product of social conditions in my opinion, rather than that specific religion.
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukkyg
Assuming that the rebels took control of a school that wasn't on their side, your analogy would have to be applied to the form of the US taking control of a school for terrorists. Since, we already destroyed all of them as the first thing we did when we went in to Afghanistan, and there are none in Iraq, there are no schools to take control of. Sorry.
Did you have a point with this one or was it just random trolling?

I thought they were brave freedom fighters in Iraq, not terrorists after all....
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Old 09-08-2004, 01:23 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Here is the difference....

If Iran or Syria etc. had our nuclear capabilities we would have been hit, and while we were still glowing and smoldering they would be dancing in the street celebrating our death.

We have the capabilities to nuke the entire Middle East and choose not to.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Just so you know the IRA have killed plenty of children with their bombing campigns. Admittedly they did not specially target children but they didn't care who they killed. They have bombed London buses, Harrods department store during Christmas rush hour, Manchester City Centre, the market town of Omagh etc.

Anyway, what the Russians have done in Chechnya has been truly awful. Entire towns have been destroyed by indiscriminate bombing, food, medicine and other aid has been cut off, the Russian soldiers have murdered, raped and tortured the people there.

I believe the people responsible for the terrorist attacks at the school should be tried and executed - but I also think the West should stop looking the other way and condemn Putin for his previous actions in Chechnya. As the conflict in Ireland has shown the only way to stop the bombings is to negotiate.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Why are terrorists so cruel?

Because it is effective. They're intelligent enough to understand that it is impossible to destroy terrorism, or even damage it much at all, by fighting it face to face. But that is the predictable response from nation states - it is all nation states know how to do when it comes to war. What the terrorists recognize is that in attempting to defeat terrorism by means of military destruction, the nation states are simply throwing fuel onto the fire. That is the entire purpose of a terrorist: to create more terror around the world. It is a brilliant, yet obvious, strategy for full on revolution.

It would be nice and easy if it really were as simple as overpowering terrorists. However, just looking at Iraq (which had no significant terrorist connection, contrary to the desires of some people) you can see that it is impossible to walk into a country, kill 10,000+ civilians, label them as collateral damage, and then expect the people to cherish this strange concept of "democracy". It isn't going to work in Iraq, it won't work in Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia (whenever we finally stop fooling ourselves into thinking Saudi Arabia is not the focal point of terrorism). But there's one thing it is guaranteed to accomplish: it will feed the fire of terrorism.

How best to get Western nation states to attempt to force their culture on the rest of the world? Commit heinous acts for which the perceived "best" response is one of revenge.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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ustwo:
interesting.

given what you chose to describe of your experience, i find it surprising that you maintain what seems like a position based on generalizations.
that your experience has brought you into contact with people whose view of their world and/or history is warped (compared to who?) has most to do with who you happen to have run into in your experience--it doesnt give you much to go on in making general arguments--most of the racists that i know claim there are exceptions to their rule in any event--i know x, he is a good guy, not like the others...others about whom you know nothing--it is the usual move that precedes the claim that the speaker is not a racist...

imputing some essential features to people whose commonality is a religion seems a pretty suspect thing to do--it doesnt allow you to understand anything. particularly these days, particularly on the question of "terrorism" when you have an administration and their lackies in the media who are more than willing to encourage people to not ask any questions about the nature of--say--globalizing capitalism, the economic pressure brought to bear on entire regions by it, etc. it does not allow you to say much of anything about politics--syria is a mostly secular regime--so is jordan--iran is quite different, but that has more to do with the nature of the shah's regime than it does with anything general about muslims...it does not allow you to say much of anything about questions of policy. it does not give you much room to think.

so while your experience is nice sounding, i guess, there is nothing in your account of it that actually bears on your politics, as you present them in this space.


btw--middle eastern countries have no monopoly on crappy education--outside affluent areas of ther states, the educational system is nothing to brag about--the church basement operations are if anything worse, every bit as bad as what you tlak about elsewhere, except they are "nice chrisitians" (a hilarious idea, given the history of the christianity, is the notion that it is not a violent religion)-- post responding to

but it seems your politics on questions concerning the middle east has more to do with justifications of the present administration and its inept policies, combined with a desire to see as many muslims far away dead as possible.

i also find it odd that you seem to have to step so far outside your own politics, your own kind of writing, to incorporate anything of your experience. i would assume that politics would connect to your experience in a coherent manner. i do not understand when it appears not to.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
And what did they hope to gain?
Perhaps they wanted only the same the russians want now, or what the US wanted after 911 - revenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
If anything it rallied the Russian people, and if there is one thin history has told us is don't give Russians a good cause for revenge.
yeah, and the russian revenge leads to chechen revenge which leads to .... and sooner or later we are in the new age of barbarism
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I was going to comment here with respect to the conservative edge, and its lack of understanding when it comes to the psyche of Mid-Eastern thought, but have thought better of it. It is a true pity that I would rather sit and watch , than contribute and get the same result as usual.
I cannot understand why Bush supporters reply so blindly to issues that are of great importance to the future of my country. It would seem any reply I could give.....will be considered a troll.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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To begin with, the concept of democracy is too advanced for the Middle Eastern peoples to accept and use. This is not a derrogatory statement, merely fact. The middle eastern version of the magna carta was signed 700 YEARS after the civilized world sat down and said the power should not be in the hands of one or a few. Democracy is a modern concept, and to try to force it onto a society that, for all intents and purposes, is still in the dark ages.
That being said, to address the original thread of the brutality and mindset of the terrorist. They are Muslim, though to say terrorism is a uniquely muslim thing would be wrong. American's used terrorism against the british, russian's against the Czarists, and even ancient Indians in the Americas against their enemies. But it is the glorification of the martyr that makes Islamist terrorism stand out. Explaining the history and roots of terrorism on this post would be rediculous as it would require many hundreds of pages, however the bottom line is Islam celebrates the martyr as a Judaeo-Christian society would celebrate it's saints.
The wording of the Quran states that no one shall kill an innocent. INNOCENT. does not say thou shalt not kill. It leaves murder open to interpretation. it leaves what qualifies as a human being open to interpretation. The brutality needs not justification to the terrorist mind.
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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why is this still about religion, when "terrorism" is a political act? that politics might be processed through the language of religion, but it remains political? it seems totally self-defeating to fall for the (largely conservative) line that you have to route any explanation of this through religion--the opposition islam/ciivilzation is totally false, typical samuel huntington bullshit.....
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
why is this still about religion, when "terrorism" is a political act? that politics might be processed through the language of religion, but it remains political? it seems totally self-defeating to fall for the (largely conservative) line that you have to route any explanation of this through religion--the opposition islam/ciivilzation is totally false, typical samuel huntington bullshit.....
Because their religion is used as a tool of control.

Of course its political, but its not political in a way that has been seen in the west for some 400 years. You can't treat it like you would a debate about gun control or taxes.
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Old 09-08-2004, 04:37 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 98MustGT
Here is the difference....

If Iran or Syria etc. had our nuclear capabilities we would have been hit, and while we were still glowing and smoldering they would be dancing in the street celebrating our death.

We have the capabilities to nuke the entire Middle East and choose not to.

Could not have said it better myself.
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Old 09-08-2004, 04:44 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Ustwo: You keep using this word 'terrorist' willy nilly...

What exactly is a terrorist by your definition?
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Old 09-08-2004, 05:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
How do you define terrorism?

The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

—The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

—The term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

—The term “terrorist group” means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism.
www.cia.gov
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Old 09-08-2004, 06:25 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Did you have a point with this one or was it just random trolling?

I thought they were brave freedom fighters in Iraq, not terrorists after all....
So from this we gather either a) you know that there was no terrorist threat from Iraq, and that we invaded anyway, or b) (via sarcasm) that you honestly believe that the people in Iraq are terrorists.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:24 PM   #34 (permalink)
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So Ustwo, am I to presume that you concur wholeheartedly with the CIA definition of terrorism?

Why not the UN definition, the FBI definition, the Mossad definition. Why choose the CIA definition as a definitive description of terrorism?
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
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you can't separate religion from politics. religion has been used for political means since the time of jesus. look at the unification of nearly every country in europe. it was done by the use of uniting a peoples under one form of christiainity, whether it be protestanism (the netherlands, the german states) or catholicism(spain, france). i'm not saying that terrorism is BECAUSE of islam. i'm saying that the people in power in the middle east use that religion as their tool. it just so happens that the technicalities of Islam make it easier for the fundamentalist regimes to keep their strangle hold on power.
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:27 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Same rhetoric over and over and nonetheless all on the internet with no checks on credibility, reliability, or truth...

I suggest the hibernation to avoid the same rehashes over and over.. saves a headache and a lot of typing (saves you money on a new keyboard! )

Last edited by Zeld2.0; 09-08-2004 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:34 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostya
So Ustwo, am I to presume that you concur wholeheartedly with the CIA definition of terrorism?

Why not the UN definition, the FBI definition, the Mossad definition. Why choose the CIA definition as a definitive description of terrorism?
Easy silly, the CIA definition excludes terrorism committed by nations.
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I want to hear it from Ustwo though, so we can get to the bottom of all this...
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:01 PM   #39 (permalink)
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It is not possible to get through the thick skull of a Bush supporter, as their racist and violent attitudes would not allow such things. You have to understand that Bush supporters are extremely naive and will blindly bow to their leader because of that very reason. The average Bush supporter, although will not always directly say, wishes the entire Muslim faith to be wiped off the face of the planet. They are one-sided and believe that the murder of innocent children is wrong, unless of course it is done by them. They believe flying planes into buildings is wrong, but bombing an innocent country is not. They have a strong hatred and anger inside them that I believe stems from their parents not raising them properly...possibly in a trailer down in Texas. To put it simply, the average Bush supporter is a racist hillbilly.


Generalizations aren’t very nice now.....are they?
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Old 09-08-2004, 10:07 PM   #40 (permalink)
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