seretogis

LINKY

Flip. This is both funny and sad to me. Flop. Another example of how Kerry will constantly reinvent himself like Gore in an attempt to attract voters. Flip. Does anyone even know who Kerry is anymore? Flop.

I'd also like to know how many Remington shotguns are used in crime, and why it would even be considered for an assault weapon ban other than in an attempt to disarm the American public incrementally.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

xepherys

Bah... I REALLY wish there was a strong third party these days! *grumble*

Journeyman

Linky

Perform searches, they help.

smooth

Are you seriously asking how many shotguns are used in street crime?

fucking hilarious.

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scout

Mr. Kerry has never voted anything pro-gun or pro-2nd Amendment in his life. Suddenly, in dire straights and in need of votes, he's the gun owners best friend.
Pathetic to say the least. I wonder, if he is elected, how long it will be before the assault on the 2nd Amendment begins again? The assault weapons ban is about to expire, ABC News last night ran an ad about tonight's show, their [ABC News} going to air a piece about how the expiration of the ban has some police officers scared to death. So here we go again, the assault has already begun and Kerry hasn't even been elected yet {yea I know, it's paranoia at it's peak haha } Most police officers I know think the ban was a load of crap, most support our 2nd Amendment rights, but ABC News, the liberal bastards that they are, have dug up a few that are in agreement with the liberal media and are going to try to pass it off as all police personnel are scared outa their pants. This whole media/Kerry thing is sickening.

zenmaster10665

Agreed....how the hell can the US ever have a viable 3rd party though....will it ever happen??

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Ustwo

Bull Moose party was pretty strong!

A new party (new as in new to power) will require a charismatic leader and very hard times in the country. Be careful what you ask for, this doesn't always work out for the best.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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rukkyg

Yeah, in 2000 the country was experiencing GOOD times, and look what happened!

filtherton

I think i'm gonna hafta go constitution party this time, fellas. We'll show those islamic fundamentalists how it's done!

File this under: OMGOMGOMGOMG A POLITICIAN IS TRYING TO MOLD HIS IMAGE TO GET ELECTED!!! STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES!!!

Lebell

Yes,

Very ironic.

Another reason I am not voting for Kerry.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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MSD

What's so hilarious about that? Kerry wants to ban this gun as an "assault weapon," which is supposed to cut down on crime. It makes no sense.

Ustwo

Kerry doesn't have the most liberal record in the senate by voting for second amendment rights. I think the ironic thing is he doesn't even know what he voted to ban.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Seaver

One more reason I'm not voting for Kerry..

OpieCunningham

Whoa!

If only the other guy hadn't started an unecessary war, attempted (and continues to attempt) to write discrimination into the Constitution, uselessly cut taxes for the wealthy, created zero jobs, dismantled decades of environmental policy, etc ... I'd definitely have to rethink my vote for Kerry!

SecretMethod70

There is. The Libertarian party is the largest third party in the nation but you'd never know based on the media attention they're given. They hold more public offices than any third party in the nation - including high-ranking positions in state government - but you'd never know based on the media attention they get. In my opinion this is because they are also the party with the most appealing platform (of the third parties) and therefore they pose a REAL danger if their message gets out. We can debate all day about whther the media is controlled by liberals or conservatives, but one thing is certain - it's controlled by one of the two (or both) and neither of them wants a REAL third party to start getting any attention.

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Le temps détruit tout

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seretogis

I thought this thread was about Kerry, not Bush? If the only reason you would vote for Kerry is to vote against Bush, your candidate and your party have serious problems.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

OpieCunningham

Or the political reality of modern day America has some serious problems.

But really, if I disagree with one option far more so than I disagree with the other, why is that a problem that I vote for the latter?

I know you'd like to imply that the Democrats are weak ... but if you actually look at the Conservative platform, you'd see that there are essentially 2 types of people - the religious and the financialists. That the financialists have decided it's ok to sacrifice their social freedom to team up with the religious folks who have little to no interest in any non-social issues is a testament to the depths that Conservatives must go to have any power in this country.

seretogis

Because there are more than just two options. The "lesser evil" mentality is what is shackling the American people to a two-party system. If everyone who wanted Bush out of office but didn't want to vote for Kerry would vote for Nader, we would have a three-party system and candidates would be forced to live up to their own hype and deliver what they promise to get elected. The two-party system benefits only Democrat and Republican politicians.

PM if you want me to elaborate, let's not derail this thread too much. ^^

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

OpieCunningham

Nothing much more to say other than - In essence, I agree. This is the first time I will vote for a Democrat or a Republican. That's just a testament to how significantly evil Bush really is. If only the Libertarians pretending to be Republicans followed your advice.

Strange Famous

I doubt Kerry would be able to disarm the American people, gun rights are very firmly entrenched in culture and the common opinion... it would take a revolutionary government freed from the fetters of "checks and balances" to achieve this... I do agree that the widespread distrbution of arms is becoming more unpopular, but I think the majority of Americans are still not prepared to give up their weapons...

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Boo

I wish Kerry would make it easier for me to vote for him.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

docbungle

Unbelievable how this election has turned into a bunch of trite little arguments over little things such as this. The public pounces on every little thing instead of concentrating on the big picture. As if banning this gun will really have an effect on the country as a whole. As if it is what the election should be about.

The issues that the media assaults us with are things I'd expect to see in an episode of "The Real World" on MTV or some such garbage. I can't remember an election year where so much absolute bullshit was spouted by either side.

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Bad Luck City

seretogis

Yeah, I can't believe that people are worried about such petty things as the security of their second amendment rights. Can't we just vote for who has the better hair?

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

whocarz

This is one of the biggest reasons why I hope Kerry doesn't win. I could really give a damn about anything else, but gun control disgusts me.

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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Kadath

If anyone actually believes that Kerry would be able to do anything to affect their right to own a gun, I am amazed. Look at the Republican Congress. Look how massively unpopular anti-gun laws are. I think people should be more concerned about the reproductive rights of women, the danger to the environment, the threat to their sons and daughters who go off to war, the ever-widening gap between the rich and the poor, and on and on and on. To vote based primarily on an archaic and Neaderthal desire to possess a weapon is pretty short-sighted.

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it's quiet in here

Lebell

We've had some good discussions as of late, so I'll respond to this.

This "neaderthal(ic) desire" as you put it, is simply the desire to be responsible for one's own life, starting at the basic levels and moving up to one's government. Yes, I am upset with Bush on many levels, but some of the things he is erroding can be fixed, whereas erroding the right to own guns errodes our very means to ultimately overthrow a corrupt government.

I know you don't agree, but I did want you to understand why many gun owners think that your view point is the short-sighted one.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Ustwo

I've vote on who has the hotter wife

I think a problem a lot of liberals have is they assume that wars, and revolutions are a thing of the past for white nations, and yes I think some of that really is a racial bias, but thats another topic. They forget that we already had the war to end all wars, and that most of them live in the most contested piece of land in all of human history (Europe), Isreal may be a close second.

They think it can't happen here, not in my country, not in our society, but its happened in less then a human life time ago and can happen at any time in the future.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

do you imagine a situation in which you would actually mobilize to overthrow the government with your gun?
on what basis?

i am not in the least opposed in principle to such an action, but the crux would be on what basis any such movement worked. but that is hypothetical at the moment--i am just interested in how th link between gun ownership as such and the possibility of radical political action moves from the level of fantasy in this case, if it does.

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xepherys

If you'll recall, his only platform for months was that we wasn't George W. Bush. *shrug* If it works for the candidate...


I'm very aware of the Libertarian party, and have voted for them in local offices MANY times. That may just be the route I take for Pres...


Bush would win that... but they're both so damned goofy looking.


I usually check out their daughters... that was my only point AGAINST Clinton! )

Kurtz

Kerry's and idiot about guns, Bush is and idiot about everything. And if you check out bush's positions on guns, they're about the same as Kerry's. For me, Kerry is just the lesser of two evils.

Superbelt

I don't like Kerry's general stance on guns either.

But there is no way he will ever be the cause of anti-gun legislation being passed. If any would get passed you can blame it on both parties, not just the democrats because the Republicans are pretty much assured to hold onto at least one half of the federal legislature this year.

Kadath

I reject your inapt correction of Neanderthal; though I understand the desire to turn the word into an adjective, "neanderthalic" is not a word. I find it surreal that you consider things like permanent damage to the environment, the destruction of a woman's right to choose, and the deaths of thousands in a misguided war reversible, but not so for an assault weapons ban that has a built-in end date. We have had some good discussions of late, so I apologize for the inflammatory nature of my initial post, but I believe gun enthusiasts allow themselves to become blinded by a single issue.

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it's quiet in here

Strange Famous

I am not a liberal... but I do not just believe that the revolution will happen. I know that it will happen. There is no such thing as the end of history... or if there is, only that it would mean the end of time. Whether you are a communist or not, everyone must understand that no system of government, no empire, no economic system, is eternal... every existing society and empire has been overthrown... and every one that exists today will be too. Another saying of Churchill was that "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... armed citizenary or not, the social order of today will be overthrown.

On the issue of hand, I in favour of complete gun control, to the extent that normal police do not carry guns (only SWAT teams), and possessing any weapon other than a modified target shooting air pistol is illegal... I would support any president that would do this... but Kerry is not the man for it, he does not strike me as a man of any moral convictions, he will do whatever the opinion polls tell him too. Gun ownership is become more unpopular in America - but it is still too entrenched to be taken away by a LIBERAL democratic government, a truly revolutionary government able to free itself from special interest and individual self interest - and act in the cause of true human interest and the decent opinion of mankin could achieve it... but that is a whole different thread.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

whocarz

Well, you and I are both content then. You in the fact that you already live in the society you describe (England), and I in the fact that you cannot vote in America.

__________________
If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Strange Famous

guns are becoming far more widespread in London. 10 years ago everyone had a knife, more and more now it's a .22

Even withlegal gun ownership fairly heavily restricted, anyone who wants a gun can get one if you know the right people. There are calls here for the police to be armed too. And if America had Columbine, we had Dunblane. Our gun problem might not seem bad compared to some nations, but it is growing every year..

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

OpieCunningham

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Bullets should cost $5000 each.

I don't support gun control for the same reason I don't support drug laws for the same reason I don't support abortion regulations, etc.

But for anyone that makes this issue their primary or close to primary reason for voting: you've got to be kidding me.

This concept of being protected from the government by maintaining the ability to revolt is absurd. Let's fantasize about that for a moment. Let's assume that the entire country, all 150 million-odd adults decide that democracy has become totally ineffective and/or subverted completely. 60% of those people don't even vote right now. And 85-90% of those people vote for the lessor of two evils instead of their ideal candidate. That leaves about 7.5 million people. Let's assume that a generous 10% of those are willing to take up arms to fight the established government. 750 thousand people with shotguns, assault rifles and handguns is going to be completely destroyed by the U.S. Military. It's not even a contest. It's shooting ducks in a barrel.

Back in 1776, sure - a passionate underdog could fend off a comparably armed yet still outnumbering foe. Unless you start saving up for a few hundred tanks, fighter jets, cluster bombs, bunker bombs, etc (and lobby to create laws which allow you to own them) - an armed revolt against the U.S. government is completely futile.

And to top it off, there are very few people claiming all guns should be banned.

So tell me again how this could possibly be the most important or near most important political issue in this election?

Lebell

FYI,

It was 1/3 revolutionary, 1/3 torrie and 1/3 didn't care.

We would need at least those percentages.

Whether or not you agree, doesn't matter to me in the least.


{edit: seems I kan't spel todaie}

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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zandor45w

Go Libertarian party, make the government smaller and get the heck out of my personal life; plus I can own a gernade launcher.

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