pan6467

edited for temperance..... just saying Ustwo... I offered to debate facts with you before and you chose to ignore the challenge... it is still on the table any time.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

I don't see any facts there, but I do see a lot of opinion, you want me to debate your opinions?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Rdr4evr

Why do all Bush puppets claim everything to be paranoiac, when in fact it is very much a real possibility. I find it extremely amusing that you will back your leader no matter how many negative facts are thrown into your face. You folks need to understand that not everything the govt. or media tells you is true. Just like the Pentagon and WTC threads (which you absolutely refuse to even listen too), you will remain close-minded and blind to this as well, and that is sad. Go ahead and continue to be puppets while failing to see the direction this man is taking your country, but I guarantee you that one day not only will you regret it, but you will realize the destruction he has caused will come back and hit us hard.

honestchipmunk

Whoa! This is a hell of a thread! Its getting kind of heated. The thing that has been bothering me most about this impending election and about politics in general is the total lack of respect for one another. And this goes on with both "sides." What I find discouraging is the degree to which everyone seems totally convinced that their farts don't stink and that they know exactly what's going on. What's missing in this sad political debate (and this thread is a prime example of it) is a sense of compromise. Everyone feels like it needs to be my way or go f*** yourself. And that's wrong. So my little piece on this situation goes like this:

I think a lot of things about Bush, both good and bad, but my main objection to what he has overseen as president is the total polarization of our country. As was pointed out above, there is very little a president can do about something like the economy, but he gets blamed for it anyway. The president may not have as much power as we think. However, Bush has overseen, and in my view done little to correct, a collossal collapse of the working relationships between Republicans and Democrats. He has made divisive decisions and implimented divisive policies. What I believe he has been failing the most at has been bringing others along with him. There will always be conspiracy theories. And normally those are confinded to the fringe where they belong. But presently there are a huge number of people who seem ready and willing to believe things like that. And that is what I fault Bush for. Not his politics, they are his own, and pleanty of people support him. But the fact that Bush has been either unable or unwilling to take the time to explain and build an approved of case for why he wants to do something is a tremendous shortcoming. We should not be THIS divided and I think there is a lot Bush could be doing to correct that but chooses not to. Leadingship means bringing along the unwilling and inspiring the uninspired. And doing those things takes more than a smirk, a cocky attitude, a "rightious" cause and a distain for those who oppose him. What we need as a country is a unifying force. Is John Kerry it? I have no idea. But I'm certain Bush isn't, and right now I only have one other option.

__________________
I'm only a ghost, the breeze on your face when you first smell the coast.

honestchipmunk

I'd just like to clarify a little bit because I think I was vague in my last few sentences. What I see Bush doing very little of is compromising. He projects a very cavileer attitude complete with a kind of "I don't take crap from anybody" stance. I think this can be agreed on pretty much. I believe that it is this attitude, that is exaulted by the right and despised by the left, that has ruined politics. No side is entirely correct, justr accept that right now. In fact, it seems that people lose sight of the fact that the objective of politics is to be able to live together, not be to "right."

__________________
I'm only a ghost, the breeze on your face when you first smell the coast.

hammer4all

irateplatypus

honestchipmunk,

i can see what you're saying about the election bringing out the worst in people as far as not being courteous and respectful to eachother. but let's not forget that people were saying the same thing 4 years ago, and 8, and 12, and 16 and so on. every election is "the most important election of our times" and every year brings a "new level of mudslinging and attacking politics."

i believe that the problem is more systemic to our culture and not the result of al gore, dob dole, bill clinton, george bush, or john kerry. every four years the country is given the opporunity to reject venemous politics and embrace a moderated discourse... but we do not.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

The Phenomenon

I hope they catch the bastard regardless.

Ustwo

Bush did everything a reasonable man could do to work with the democrats. He even let Ted Kennedy write the damn education bill (which the dems don't like because it was signed by Bush and not a democrat president). The democrats have done EVERYTHING in their power to screw with Bush, from holding up homeland security to appease a union, to not allowing almost any Judges to be put on the bench.

About the only thing the democrats would accept is for Bush to give them everything while getting nothing in return. At this point working with the democrats is pointless. Laura Bush in an interview said that this was the most disapointing thing about Washington. In Texas Bush and the Dems there had a good working relationship, Bush tried to bring that to Washington, he was warned that it wouldn't work but he tried anyways, and he failed not through lack of effort, but due to the 'win at all costs even if it screws the country' mentality the DNC has had.

THIS is why they lost the Senate in 2002, and will most likely lose this election in November.

WHAT could the man have done?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

nanofever

"I don't see any facts there, but I do see a lot of opinion, you want me to debate your opinions?"

See what I did there ?

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

irateplatypus

that's what we're doing here... debating opinions.

would you really want to debate cold hard facts? i can't think of anything more tedious or redundant.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Ustwo

You still allowed to post Nano? I'm surprised, the mods let your last one to me slip through or should I quote it again?


Nano's true colors

Now that we can all see where your level of discourse belongs, I will address the fact that you are correct. It might be a fact that Ted Kennedy did write the education bill, it might be a fact that now the democrats say its a horrible bill, it might be a fact that the homeland security bill was held up due to union wishes, and it might be a fact that the democrats have been holding up all of Bush's judicial appointees, (you DO remember 'memogate' don't you?) but the rest is opinion.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

nanofever

"The President Has Repeatedly Broken His Promise to Provide Federal Support for Education. In the two years since the President signed the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act, none of his budgets have come close to meeting the level of funding authorized in the Act. The FY 2004 budget submitted by President Bush fell $9 billion short of the amount authorized for 2004 and his FY 2003 budget fell $7.2 billion short of approved funding. [Office of Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, 6/9/03; Associated Press, 2/24/03]"
http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/nclb/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...h.no.child.ap/
Democrats are upset that Bush tanked the bill by killing its funding. A great bill/policy is just a piece of paper unless it gets proper funding. The CNN article is somewhat more and less damning in the same instance. The article says that Bush's budget did try to kill funding for NCLB, but congress did not follow Bush's budget in this area and allocated more fund to NCLB. I can't see how he can take credit for something he has tried to kill several times.



"Rep. Constance Morella, R-Md., whose district includes many federal workers, joined Democrats in the Government Reform Committee to pass, 21-19, an amendment to ensure that civil servants whose jobs don't change when they move to the new department don't lose collective bargaining rights. "
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in515237.shtml

From the CBS article it seems like this amendment was added within a day or two; I would imagine the article would have at least hinted at some hold up if it existed. I also don't see how stripping workers of their right to collectively bargain makes the US any safer.



"After taking care to mollify Democrats with two nominees previously tapped by former President Clinton, Mr. Bush asked the evenly divided Senate "to provide a prompt vote to every nominee."
But Senate Democrats vowed Wednesday to hold up at least one of Mr. Bush's choices, a former aide to Republican Sen. Jesse Helms of North Carolina.
Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle said Terrence Boyle was the only one of the 11 candidates nominated against the wishes of a home-state Democratic senator.
Daschle said Democrats would seek to block confirmation of Boyle until the concerns of that senator, John Edwards of North Carolina, were resolved.
Daschle said Democrats may oppose other nominees, but have not yet had an opportunity to adequately review their credentials and philosophies.
Democrats in the Senate, which must approve all judicial nominees, are still angry that Republicans in the last few years did not act on a number of candidates for judge submitted by President Clinton. White House officials were bracing for a possible Democratic backlash. "
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/...le290263.shtml

I guess those crafty democrats have quite the scheme going holding-up all of Bush's appointments, and after the Republican were so nice to Clinton when he went to appoint judges. I would also like to point-out the aid was for FREAKING JESSE HELMS. That request is like asking for Chomsky to be appointed as a judge, it would never, ever work.



About you sucking Karl Rove's cock, I am sorry I made that statement. I am just deeply saddened that you believe everything that comes out of the White House without trying to fact check their statements. I didn't mean that you actually perform fellatio on Mr. Rove; I was just trying to think of imagery which is equal in magnitude to your believe in the veracity of White House statements. Deep-throated fellatio was simply the first thought that I had; my deepest aplologies Ustwo.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Stompy

I don't understand why people are angry at Bush for this.

Don't get angry at Bush, get angry at the vast amount of people who, after OBL's capture, will suddenly decide, "Wow, Bush is getting rid of terrorism!! He's our savior to the homeland and he most certainly has MY vote!" They are the ones who vote, and as a result, are the ones who are helping the decline of this country.

People don't know the difference of OBL getting captured under Bush's presidency vs. Bush capturing OBL himself. Aaaaaaaaaaanybody who is president can easily capture OBL. Praise the generals who put the plans together and utilize the technology we have to make a successful mission. Bush has NOTHING to do with it at all whatsoever.

It's not that big of a deal.. I mean, it's good he's captured and all, but things around the world won't change much and it certainly won't get rid of, or hinder the progress of, terrorism.

__________________
I love lamp.

student

yeh you're right. until fox news covers it, it is a total fabrication devoid of any factual information. They would never not mention on the news that Halliburton got fined 7.5 million by the SEC while Cheney was ceo over fraudulent accounting practices, or Halliburton getting a no bid contract to rebuild the oil infrastructure in Iraq, but I guess "BLAH BLAH BLAH Gay Marriage Terror Alert Elevated BLAH unpatriotic BLAH BLAH" is more important than the character of the vice president. From now on, I will only watch the American news channels to find out what is going on in America and the rest of the world.

Strange Famous

Catching Bin Laden will not make America safer... this is what I think must be understood more than anything else... Bin Laden is not this James Bond style master villian in some huge high tech mountain lair, about to detonate the doomsday weapon... he is a hate monger and a religious bigot - his power if not in his deeds, but in the way he inspires hate in people who are lost and miserable, that he gives many poor and exploited Muslim's a scapegoat for their problems, a salvation for their future and a devil to blame their misery on... it seems to me that the last few years of his life have been directed towards making a martyr of himself... this is not a war of the old style when - with Hitler or the Emporer gone the will to fight is lost.. it is a crusade and the soldiers are almost to a man the people who have nothing to lose... the weapons of mass destruction are so great, so simple, that almost anyone can strike and cause terrible damage - so long as they do not fear the consequences.

I dont think Bin Laden is the real problem, he is a sympton of the real problem. Bringing wealth, social reform, socialist policies to the people of the middle east would do far more to weaken people like Bin Laden than bombs and missiles ever could... It is no accident that Saudi Arabia, where grotesque poverty and incredible wealth sit by side - is the place where the majority of these militants comes from.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

honestchipmunk

I really don't think that Texas, of all places, can be considered a utopia of sanity and goodwill in the political world:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...s.legislature/
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0514-07.htm

But to the point, I realize that every election divides people, how can one not? In my opinion, however, this election is very different from any other, certainly in recent memory, and maybe ever. The level of mistrust and hatred (which I'll admit is a subjective measure) is astronomical. Recall last election, people would say "Gore is too wooden, I don't like him" or "Bush is too conservative, I don't like him." Now flash forward and note that people are saying "Kerry is my only option, Bush may distroy the country" or "Bush is fantastic, he is saving the country." Now I think the difference in the strength of emotion and urgency of action of that rhetoric is readily aparent. We are divided, and more so than we have been since, maybe, desegrigation. And in my opinion, for the well being and yes, safety of our country, the next president needs to worry less about those "non-patriots" who oppose his various policies and more about doing what it takes to bring people together. As much as one may hate the right or the left, we are all from the United States and have to work together.

__________________
I'm only a ghost, the breeze on your face when you first smell the coast.

pan6467

1) Ustwo while you are not as crass as saying something like Nano did about you and Rove, (and yes it was uncalled for), I have seen you bully demand facts while not giving any, call people names and argue for the sake of arguing. You are a troll and a flamer, who does nothing but spew and continue hate mongering.

2) You say you want to debate facts with me fine, but I can guarantee you'll be the first losing his cool and trying to intimidate while name calling and not giving any substantiated facts. We'll even find a neutral Mod/Admin to keep it fair. I've offered before and you as always when the confronted with facts and true challenges ignored it totally. Yet you keep crying about where my facts are.... Debate me, make both of us put up or shut up. But until you show your facts, I don't have to show mine, I usually do tho and then you ignore them.

3) Just because Ted Kennedy HELPED write the Education Bill does not mean that what he wrote and what was passed were the same 2 things.... or did you want to not acknowledge that fact so that you can keep crying over "but Ted Kennedy wrote the bill so you Dems can't cry." It's BS and you know it's BS because what passed and what Kennedy wrote are 2 totally different things. Want to debate the facts? open the thread show yours and I'll show mine. But you'll come up with an excuse (such as I should because I want the debate..... BS you keep harping on that subject I'm calling you on it).

This is not a personal attack. I don't know you personally and probably because of our differences wouldn't want to (I may respect your passion, but I do not respect the way you treat others opinions on here)... However, I'm tired of hearing you rant and rave and not give facts yet expect everyone who disagrees with you to. So what are you gonna do... keep crying for facts and ignore my offer or debate and let the chips fall where they will.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ARTelevision

The first paragraph here failed the don't make it personal test.
It doesn't get much better after that.

I suppose it should be edited, but I do tire of doing what you folks should know enough to do yourselves.

It's time to chill out now.

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create evolution

irateplatypus

I disagree. Catching Bin Laden will make American safer... just not safe. Capturing the most visible and perhaps the most wealthy financier of terrorism will undoubtedly make Americans safer.

I think the second portion of your post cited could be fertile with positive ideas... but i'm betting dollars to doughnuts we'll go in completely opposite directions on how to achieve those reforms.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

powerclown

Agreed.
You bring up a good point regarding financing. Arresting obl has the potential to uncover much about the financial workings of aq, et al. A good source of intelligence.

Seaver

Bush DID work hand in hand with Dems here in Texas very well. Hence the uniter not divider speeches his first national election. Unfortunately as stated it didnt work that way at the national level. And about those dems running off instead of voting on something they were going to lose, they ALL lost credibility with the people here in Texas by even the stauchest Democratic voter. It's a long story with a longer back story and I'm not going to hijack this thread for it.