Because He Says So - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

OpieCunningham · 09-02-2004, 05:23 PM

This is about as good as it gets -

http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/dsbush.html

(embedded QT movie of a clip from The Daily Show's special access to the RNC America is Safer convention video)

Rdr4evr · 09-02-2004, 05:49 PM

Prolific masterpiece. Summed up everything beautifully and honestly. I wish they would air this rather than his stand up ac.......err acceptance speech.

irateplatypus · 09-02-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Prolific masterpiece. Summed up everything beautifully and honestly. I wish they would air this rather than his stand up ac.......err acceptance speech.

you realize that it's a comedy show... right? you realize that it used to be advertised as the "fake news" right? sometimes i think people forget it's entertainment not sober political analysis.

OpieCunningham · 09-02-2004, 05:57 PM

You mean like that other station ... the Fair & Balanced one?

That The Daily Show uses comedy as a medium for expressing an opinion on politics does not make the opinion any less worthy than a channel like Fox News, which uses self-righteousness as a medium for expressing an opinion on politics.

shakran · 09-02-2004, 06:13 PM

Well yes we do realize it's a comedy show. The comedy central logo on the screen was a clue. The laugh track reinforced our hypothesis.

However, just because it's presented in a funny manner doesn't mean they aren't pointing out inconsistancies. They didn't fake any of the video clips they used. Bush contradicts himself routinely, and so far they are the only media outlet that seems to be able to remember that what he said last week doesn't sound much like what he's saying this week. I'm happy someone's finally pointing it out.

But yeah, it's a shame that the ones pointing it out have to be a comedy show rather than a political analysis show.

Journeyman · 09-02-2004, 06:13 PM

Well, there is that fact that it's the Fake News on "Comedy Central." But then there's also the content: George W. Bush's own words.

irateplatypus · 09-02-2004, 06:28 PM

yeah, i'm quite familiar with how this works.

comedy that reinforces preconcieved notions is proclaimed brilliant satire. that which does not is vulgar and juvenile.

i say we pay less attention to comedy of any sort in politics. it doesn't usually "cut the crap" or "point out absurdity" as many like to think. what it does is take ideas and quotes out of context and confuses the electorate. democracy is no better because of the daily show. comedy has its place, but not the place of honor as it seems to be given.

Kadath · 09-02-2004, 06:32 PM

I think it's important to remember at this point that the Daily Show was the first to figure out that Pat Buchanan's speech at the '92 RNC was the death knell for the Republicans. Occasionally, they get it right. They may shoot for humor as well as edification, but they still tell the truth.

irateplatypus · 09-02-2004, 06:41 PM

how can a show that was promoted as "fake news" still tell the truth? otherwise... wouldn't it just be "the news"?

sometimes it's truthful, sometimes it isn't. sometimes quotes are taken into context, oftentimes they aren't. sometimes the issues are real, sometimes they create something just for a laugh.

the problem is that they don't distinguish between the two. they can't, or else it wouldn't be that funny. i'm honestly not proposing that the daily show or any other political comedy source has nothing pertinent to say. i watch the show, it's pretty damn funny. i'm saying that the electorate gets a disproportionate amount of their news and editorials from these sources. because these sources are concerned with entertainment, they aren't held to the same standards or bound by the same ethic that traditional journalists are (or supposed to be).

OpieCunningham · 09-02-2004, 06:58 PM

I don't think any show should be judged solely by its tagline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

sometimes it's truthful, sometimes it isn't. sometimes quotes are taken into context, oftentimes they aren't. sometimes the issues are real, sometimes they create something just for a laugh.

This sounds exactly like every other News program ... though the laugh portion is invariably unintentional.

There are two different types of news - objective facts and opinions about those facts.

To claim The Daily Show has less value than any other opinion news show is flawed - you're comparing opinions vs. opinions and declaring one the loser simply because it has comedy.

Quote:

the problem is that they don't distinguish between the two. they can't, or else it wouldn't be that funny.

The same could be said of Fox News - sometimes the issues are real and sometimes they're just pushing a Republican agenda. They can't distinguish between the two or else they couldn't continue to be self-righteous.

Quote:

i'm honestly not proposing that the daily show or any other political comedy source has nothing pertinent to say. i watch the show, it's pretty damn funny. i'm saying that the electorate gets a disproportionate amount of their news and editorials from these sources. because these sources are concerned with entertainment, they aren't held to the same standards or bound by the same ethic that traditional journalists are (or supposed to be).

As long as we're not comparing The Daily Show with objective truth, you're correct. But I fail to see a difference between the quality of the opinions expressed on The Daily Show vs. any of countless shows on Fox News or MSNBC or CNN or 60 Minutes. None of them are the objective truth and they all present one viewpoint on a subject. If you're describing all of those shows, then I agree - but if you are singling out The Daily Show, I don't see the difference you claim is present.

irateplatypus · 09-02-2004, 07:25 PM

you fail to see a difference? wow... ok

surely you'll grant me: most people aren't thrilled to talk fiscal policy, listening to a politician speak is often boring and time-consuming, people are very busy with their own lives, issues of substance are seldom entertaining.

yet when people watch the daily show they are exposed to these issues but do not view them in their proper context. yeah, they hear about the mr. politicians tax proposal... but they hear about it from a comedian who spends 25 seconds telling jokes about it. if a well-informed electorate is essential to a healthy democracy then how can we legitimize this format as a method of understanding our world?

is politics, by nature, entertaining? how about international policy? warfare? abortion? taxes?

if the answer to one of these is "no", then you must concede that something vital is lost when they are converted into entertainment.

we need to step back and give less creedence to comedians and entertainers. the daily show is not a legitimate source of news. news sources of it's like are fun to watch, but should not be given as much serious weight as it seems to have garnered in the past 10 or 15 years. the real issues aren't as compelling as jon stewart portrays them, but perhaps toughing it out a bit to hear more about major issues from cspan is what it takes to make the right choices.

shakran · 09-02-2004, 07:32 PM

i don't think anyone's trying to say that 1) the daily show is a real newscast or 2) that the video in this thread is an objective news piece. We all realize that the daily show is a comedic parody of a newscast and that the video in this thread is an anti-bush video.

Those facts do not make the video any less truthful however. Bush did say all of those things. They didn't make any of that up. They simply contrasted his inconsistant statements.

This is an opinion piece. No one is saying it's an objective news piece. You're involved in an argument that does not exist.

irateplatypus · 09-02-2004, 07:41 PM

shakran,

"Those facts do not make the video any less truthful however."

"This is an opinion piece. No one is saying it's an objective news piece."

i'm not saying you can't do it, but those two statements appear to be difficult to reconcile. are we into truthful opinions? if it's a truthful opinion... doesn't that make it a fact? how can it be truthful and not objective?

OpieCunningham · 09-02-2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

you fail to see a difference? wow... ok

That's correct. I fail to see a difference in value of opinion between The Daily Show and Fox News.

Quote:

surely you'll grant me: most people aren't thrilled to talk fiscal policy, listening to a politician speak is often boring and time-consuming, people are very busy with their own lives, issues of substance are seldom entertaining.

yet when people watch the daily show they are exposed to these issues but do not view them in their proper context.

I understand your point - but only as it applies to ALL news shows, not specifically to The Daily Show. You don't seem to have "granted" me the opinion that there is no difference between these shows ... to call one entertainment and the other not doesn't make it so. They are all entertainment. If you want something as close to unmitigated truth - CSPAN is probably as close as you're going to get.

Quote:

we need to step back and give less creedence to comedians and entertainers. the daily show is not a legitimate source of news. news sources of it's like are fun to watch, but should not be given as much serious weight as it seems to have garnered in the past 10 or 15 years. the real issues aren't as compelling as jon stewart portrays them, but perhaps toughing it out a bit to hear more about major issues from cspan is what it takes to make the right choices.

Again - if we're comparing The Daily Show with CSPAN - I agree. But you seem to differentiate between the entertainment of The Daily Show (which in effect whips like-minded thinkers into somewhat of a frenzy by poking fun at political figures of the opposition viewpoint) and the entertainment of a Fox News program (which in effect whips like-minded thinkers into somewhat of a frenzy by lambasting political figures of the opposition viewpoint).

I will agree that there is one major difference: Fox News pretends to be conveying the truth. The Daily Show makes no such hypocritical claim.

shakran · 09-02-2004, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

shakran,

"Those facts do not make the video any less truthful however."

"This is an opinion piece. No one is saying it's an objective news piece."

i'm not saying you can't do it, but those two statements appear to be difficult to reconcile. are we into truthful opinions? if it's a truthful opinion... doesn't that make it a fact? how can it be truthful and not objective?

I like the sky because it is blue.

It's an opinion statement that also has a true fact in it - the blue sky.

This is an opinion piece that uses true facts to make its point. So yes, it can be true while still being an opinion.

oh, and

Quote:

I will agree that there is one major difference: Fox News pretends to be conveying the truth. The Daily Show makes no such hypocritical claim.

was very well said. Nicely done!

shakran · 09-02-2004, 07:55 PM

doublepost. Apologies

Mephisto2 · 09-03-2004, 12:10 AM

That was pretty cool.

It made me laugh. I'm only sorry we don't seem get the Daily Show in Australia. I think it's on satellite, as I have seen it once or twice, but can never remember where.

To coin a phrase, "that's comedy gold".

:-)

Mr Mephisto

Halx · 09-03-2004, 12:36 AM

I thought this was brilliant. I thought it was very honest too. Comedy is sometimes the clearest of truths. Regardless of the fact that the Daily Show bills itself as fake news, it does not mean that what is said on the show is absolute shit. I believe that if you hold the standards of such a show rigidly to the guidelines of it's genre, you are flat out lying to yourself. As if every point made by this piece is now null and void simply because of the medium it was presented in. PLEASE.

I'm waiting for a bush-backer to come out and say, "Yes, he did say all of that. No, none of the important points were taken out of context." C'mon... it's ok to admit you're wrong sometimes.

Superbelt · 09-03-2004, 04:03 AM

You need to look at the Daily Show as a News Journal like 60 Minutes rather than the nightly news or CNN/FOX

I find it to be refreshing and accurate because it doesn't even try to uphold the bullshit "journalistic professionalism" that we have these days. They aren't afraid to mock stupidity.
In this culture of ADD, you need to be blunt because otherwise many people just won't pick up on it.

09-02-2004, 05:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	Because He Says So This is about as good as it gets - http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/dsbush.html (embedded QT movie of a clip from The Daily Show's special access to the RNC America is Safer convention video) Last edited by OpieCunningham; 09-02-2004 at 05:37 PM..

09-02-2004, 06:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	yeah, i'm quite familiar with how this works. comedy that reinforces preconcieved notions is proclaimed brilliant satire. that which does not is vulgar and juvenile. i say we pay less attention to comedy of any sort in politics. it doesn't usually "cut the crap" or "point out absurdity" as many like to think. what it does is take ideas and quotes out of context and confuses the electorate. democracy is no better because of the daily show. comedy has its place, but not the place of honor as it seems to be given. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-02-2004, 06:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	I think it's important to remember at this point that the Daily Show was the first to figure out that Pat Buchanan's speech at the '92 RNC was the death knell for the Republicans. Occasionally, they get it right. They may shoot for humor as well as edification, but they still tell the truth. __________________ it's quiet in here

09-02-2004, 06:41 PM	#9 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	how can a show that was promoted as "fake news" still tell the truth? otherwise... wouldn't it just be "the news"? sometimes it's truthful, sometimes it isn't. sometimes quotes are taken into context, oftentimes they aren't. sometimes the issues are real, sometimes they create something just for a laugh. the problem is that they don't distinguish between the two. they can't, or else it wouldn't be that funny. i'm honestly not proposing that the daily show or any other political comedy source has nothing pertinent to say. i watch the show, it's pretty damn funny. i'm saying that the electorate gets a disproportionate amount of their news and editorials from these sources. because these sources are concerned with entertainment, they aren't held to the same standards or bound by the same ethic that traditional journalists are (or supposed to be). __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-02-2004, 07:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	you fail to see a difference? wow... ok surely you'll grant me: most people aren't thrilled to talk fiscal policy, listening to a politician speak is often boring and time-consuming, people are very busy with their own lives, issues of substance are seldom entertaining. yet when people watch the daily show they are exposed to these issues but do not view them in their proper context. yeah, they hear about the mr. politicians tax proposal... but they hear about it from a comedian who spends 25 seconds telling jokes about it. if a well-informed electorate is essential to a healthy democracy then how can we legitimize this format as a method of understanding our world? is politics, by nature, entertaining? how about international policy? warfare? abortion? taxes? if the answer to one of these is "no", then you must concede that something vital is lost when they are converted into entertainment. we need to step back and give less creedence to comedians and entertainers. the daily show is not a legitimate source of news. news sources of it's like are fun to watch, but should not be given as much serious weight as it seems to have garnered in the past 10 or 15 years. the real issues aren't as compelling as jon stewart portrays them, but perhaps toughing it out a bit to hear more about major issues from cspan is what it takes to make the right choices. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill Last edited by irateplatypus; 09-02-2004 at 07:32 PM..

09-02-2004, 05:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Prolific masterpiece. Summed up everything beautifully and honestly. I wish they would air this rather than his stand up ac.......err acceptance speech.

09-02-2004, 05:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	You mean like that other station ... the Fair & Balanced one? That The Daily Show uses comedy as a medium for expressing an opinion on politics does not make the opinion any less worthy than a channel like Fox News, which uses self-righteousness as a medium for expressing an opinion on politics.

09-02-2004, 06:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Well yes we do realize it's a comedy show. The comedy central logo on the screen was a clue. The laugh track reinforced our hypothesis. However, just because it's presented in a funny manner doesn't mean they aren't pointing out inconsistancies. They didn't fake any of the video clips they used. Bush contradicts himself routinely, and so far they are the only media outlet that seems to be able to remember that what he said last week doesn't sound much like what he's saying this week. I'm happy someone's finally pointing it out. But yeah, it's a shame that the ones pointing it out have to be a comedy show rather than a political analysis show.

09-02-2004, 06:13 PM	#6 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	Well, there is that fact that it's the Fake News on "Comedy Central." But then there's also the content: George W. Bush's own words.

09-02-2004, 07:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	i don't think anyone's trying to say that 1) the daily show is a real newscast or 2) that the video in this thread is an objective news piece. We all realize that the daily show is a comedic parody of a newscast and that the video in this thread is an anti-bush video. Those facts do not make the video any less truthful however. Bush did say all of those things. They didn't make any of that up. They simply contrasted his inconsistant statements. This is an opinion piece. No one is saying it's an objective news piece. You're involved in an argument that does not exist.

09-02-2004, 07:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	shakran, "Those facts do not make the video any less truthful however." "This is an opinion piece. No one is saying it's an objective news piece." i'm not saying you can't do it, but those two statements appear to be difficult to reconcile. are we into truthful opinions? if it's a truthful opinion... doesn't that make it a fact? how can it be truthful and not objective? __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-02-2004, 07:55 PM	#16 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	doublepost. Apologies

09-03-2004, 12:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	That was pretty cool. It made me laugh. I'm only sorry we don't seem get the Daily Show in Australia. I think it's on satellite, as I have seen it once or twice, but can never remember where. To coin a phrase, "that's comedy gold". :-) Mr Mephisto

09-03-2004, 12:36 AM	#18 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I thought this was brilliant. I thought it was very honest too. Comedy is sometimes the clearest of truths. Regardless of the fact that the Daily Show bills itself as fake news, it does not mean that what is said on the show is absolute shit. I believe that if you hold the standards of such a show rigidly to the guidelines of it's genre, you are flat out lying to yourself. As if every point made by this piece is now null and void simply because of the medium it was presented in. PLEASE. I'm waiting for a bush-backer to come out and say, "Yes, he did say all of that. No, none of the important points were taken out of context." C'mon... it's ok to admit you're wrong sometimes. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 09-03-2004 at 12:46 AM..

09-03-2004, 04:03 AM	#19 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	You need to look at the Daily Show as a News Journal like 60 Minutes rather than the nightly news or CNN/FOX I find it to be refreshing and accurate because it doesn't even try to uphold the bullshit "journalistic professionalism" that we have these days. They aren't afraid to mock stupidity. In this culture of ADD, you need to be blunt because otherwise many people just won't pick up on it.