Now I am curious - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KMA-628 · 07-23-2004, 09:18 PM

I figure that the news has been out for about a week. I keep watching this board to see if the topic comes up, but it hasn't.

To me, it is a very big story that isn't getting a lot of coverage.

I am referring to Sandy Berger.

It is a big story to me, not because I am against Clinton or have a bone to pick with his administration, but because my security clearance level used to be at the "nuclear secrets" level and I am familiar with the rules/procedures regarding classified/confidential/top-secret material.

I know the training that we had before we were even allowed anywhere near the information. I was searched coming into the building and leaving the bulding, even if I just went out for a smoke. Hell, we got busted if we had the information on our desk and walked around the corner to get a coke. We had to sign in/out everything we touched (even if it had nothing to do with the material--the fact that it was in proximity to secrets was enough).

Sandy Berger's clearance level was much higher than mine (something like "codeword" level) and he wouldn't have gotten to that level without knowing the rules/procedures regarding the handling of this material.

That being said and with my background, there is no way I will believe that this guy "accidentally" left the archives with confidential material. Especially not with the additional news that is being reported (i.e. asking the guards to give him privacy, a lot of bathroom breaks, stuffing papers in his shoes, pants, etc).

I dunno, I guess that I am surprised that this hasn't been posted here for discussion.

Are we avoiding the topic? (not to mention the 9/11 report hasn't shown up here yet, either).

Politics aside

Party affiliation aside

Is anybody else bothered by this?

VTBrian · 07-23-2004, 09:25 PM

There arn't many things in the world that make me more angry than treason, and I'm not 100% sure but I think leaking of classifed information is treason.

KMA-628 · 07-23-2004, 09:36 PM

well.....you may be ahead of yourself on using the term "leaking". All we know is what he is being accused of and I don't think he was leaking anything.

If anything, he was probably making certain information "disappear." Still illegal, either way, just different crimes.

I think intent and who the leaked info goes to are the big things behind leaking classified info. There was a case a little while ago when congress got in trouble for leaking classified info to the press. That wasn't treason (though some would make it fit their definition) it was more along the lines of partisan politics.

reconmike · 07-24-2004, 05:51 AM

You will not see many Clintonites/Dems posting about this.
Because they still want to pin ALL the blame for 911 on Bush,and to go as far as say he knew it was going to happen, and he allowed it to happen so he could invade Iraq.

Berger went in and destoryed papers that probably showed Clinton had evidence OBL was behind (too many to list pick one) attacks against the US.

Now this might seem small except for the fact that the Sudan wanted to serve OBL up to us, but Clinton was more concerned with saving his own ass than national security.

I hope Berger gets some prison time, maybe a cell with someone named Bubba.....how ironic that would be.

Sparhawk · 07-24-2004, 06:32 AM

The whole thing upsets me on many different levels.

1. He's been working for the government for 30 years, the guy should effing know better, and I'm appalled at the allegations.

2. The archivists should not have let him run all over them a second time after they already suspected him of taking documents - this is very simple: if you are in charge of TS/codeword info, it is YOUR ass if someone gets out with it.

3. He damn well should have informed John Kerry, who he's been working for, that he was under FBI investigation (also, it would have been nice if White House officials, who have known about it for months, had let Kerry, as a courtesy, know about it).

4. Two days after it is leaked, a congressional investigation is underway - but *still* no congressional investigation into Valerie Plame's identity leak?

5. This investigation has been ongoing since spring. It's leaked NOW, two days before the release of the 9/11 report, and a week before the Democratic Convention? PLEASE.... The timing of it is pathetic partisan politics at its absolute worst, and the Republicans who leaked it should be ashamed of themselves.

-One Democrat's opinion

pocon1 · 07-24-2004, 08:21 AM

Reconmike, no Dem is trying to blame 9/11 on Bush, except for a few crackpots. People said the same thing about roosevelt and pearl harbor.
The asshole who claims he knew where obl was was quickly proven to be a liar. Clinton was the only terrorist hunter we had until AFTER 9/11, then Bush rode in on his horse. Sudan wouldn't do shit for us. Remember Reagan left Beirut after the marine barracks bombing. Tucked his tail between his legs and didn't do shit.
Berger fucked up, and he hasn't been back to the health club this week. I spoke to his wife, and she said she is hanging in there. It must be very hard on her.
Berger is not accused of treason, but of partisan coverrup. The people who leaked this a week before the Dem convention are also partisan assholes willing to weaken the country to profit themselves.

Peryn · 07-24-2004, 08:41 AM

Quote:

The people who leaked this a week before the Dem convention are also partisan assholes willing to weaken the country to profit themselves.

But what about Sandy himself? Do you think "accidentally" trying to remove classified docs wasn't a partisan move? Do you believe we are not weakening the country by trying to ignore that people with acces to highly classified information have proven that they shouldn't be trusted around it? I cant get myself to believe that was he did was really "accidental", or that nobody was going to profit from it.

Yes, the timing is bad, possibly even shameful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address his [most likely] criminal behavior.

OFKU0 · 07-24-2004, 09:06 AM

I saw Berger on CNN and was somewhat taken back by his relative nonchalance regarding the issue. I'm surprised this is a non-issue since he admits to 'accidentally' throwing them away.

How does this happen? Would he accidentally throw away airline tickets or tickets to the opera? This is top secret classified info and it just disappears, then to be shrugged off by Berger and it is forgotten. This sounds very fishy to me and I have to wonder how often things like this happen that no one hears about.

pocon1 · 07-24-2004, 09:34 AM

Hey Peryn, I am not arguing that what sandy is alleged to have done is wrong. He has been in politics a long time. Probably too long. I think that teaches some people to not respect the law of the land. He knew the rules. Remember the head of the CIA or whatever that lost his post for having illegal files on his computer. it is just an awfully convenient leak and I am sick of the partisan politics that is wrecking the country from both sides.

Seaver · 07-24-2004, 10:48 AM

Look, to get classified clearance that high you go through a LOT of training on what not to do. I'm barely at Secret clearance (lvl 1), I know what he did was bullshit.

There is NO WAY in archives you can accidently throw stuff away, there is NO WAY you accidently put copied documents in your socks. I dont care if he was Republican or Democrat, he needs to be stripped of all his clearance for life, and prosecuted to the highest degree.

matteo101 · 07-24-2004, 11:51 AM

I find nothing wrong with what he did. I mean, he took them home for his own personal study. He had no intent on leaking the information to anyone who wasn't meant to see it. Did it in any way hurt the american people or the world? no. If anything it helped us, because he was better able to use the knowledge.

Rekna · 07-24-2004, 12:48 PM

Here is what a quick search of fox news revealed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126848,00.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department investigation into whether Sandy Berger (search) copied and stole terrorism documents from the National Archives is focused on one highly classified report about the Clinton administration's response to a plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, FOX News has learned.

Sources familiar with the investigation said that Berger, Clinton's former national security adviser, took numerous copies and drafts of that report, and other related documents.

The report may be of interest to investigators because of handwritten margin notes on some of the copies, which may be attributable to Berger, sources said. Since the documents themselves have not been released, the specifics of those notes were not immediately clear.

However, a government official said the investigation will likely lead to the declassification of the report.

The terror scheme in question is the millennium bomb plot (search), which was planned for Jan. 1, 2000.

Algerian national Ahmed Ressam (search) was convicted in April 2001 of terrorist conspiracy and eight other charges related to the plot. He was arrested in Port Angeles, Wash., in December 1999 after crossing the Canada-U.S. border with a car allegedly with bomb-making material. Authorities said Ressam, 33, had ties to Usama bin Laden (search).

Seattle's millennial celebrations, and those in several other cities, were canceled as a result of Ressam's arrest.

Prosecutors say statements from Ressam prompted the government to seek the July 2001 arrest of Abu Doha (search), described as a London Al Qaeda operative. Doha has been charged with conspiring with Ressam to blow up Los Angeles International, but also is accused in other terrorist plots around the world.

Ressam's testimony also helped convict Mokhtar Haouari, 32, of supplying fake identification and cash for the millennium bomb plot. Haouari was sentenced to 24 years in prison.

The documents in the Berger case originated with the White House National Security Council and dealt with actions and recommendations stemming from the threat in 1999 of a terrorist attack during the 2000 millennium celebrations. The documents, written by former National Security Council aide and counterterrorism adviser Richard Clarke (search), were classified at the extremely sensitive "codeword" level, which is above the classification level for the nation's nuclear secrets.

Berger is being investigated after witnesses at the National Archives said they saw him copying notes from the copied documents, and stuffing some of the copies in his shirt and socks.

Berger was reviewing the materials in 2003 to help determine which Clinton administration documents to provide to the independent commission probing the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. Berger claims he made "an honest mistake" but was innocent of any wrongdoing, saying he must have discarded the missing documents.

The House Government Reform Committee said this week that it will look into the allegations.

"At best, we're looking at tremendously irresponsible handling of highly classified information," said committee Chairman Tom Davis, R-Va.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., said the questions the committee should answer include whether there was any attempt to cover up embarrassing materials, what happened to documents removed by Berger that are still missing and what security risk the entire episode poses.

The White House acknowledged that its lawyers were notified months ago about the Berger investigation. The chairman of the Democratic National Committee filed a Freedom of Information request for any correspondence about the probe between the Justice Department and the White House.

Meanwhile, the Sept. 11 commission said it was able to get all the information it needed despite the Berger snafu.

Panel Chairman Thomas Kean told reporters Friday that he and Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton were told by Bush administration officials about six months ago that Berger was the subject of a the Justice investigation.

Kean said the commission has been assured that they were able to obtain copies of each document that was apparently lost. If those lost documents had written notations on them from Clinton or others, they would have been included in those copies, Kean said.

Berger stepped down as an informal foreign policy adviser to Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry after the investigation hit the headlines earlier this week. Democrats accused the Bush administration of leaking the news for political gain and to distract attention from the Thursday release of the Sept. 11 commission report. Administration officials have denied those claims.

Now fox news is considered fairly to be on the conservitive side but yet they don't be seeming to make a big deal of it.

If it was a cover up the 9/11 comitte are saying they got all of the documents that are "lost" so there was no cover up there.

From the looks of it all he has done is broke policy on the handleing of classified documents. I'm not sure how big of an offense this is or how common it occurs but from the looks of it there was very little harm if any.

It looks more like a fishing expedition by republicans to attack Clinton and Kerry again.

Seaver · 07-24-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

I find nothing wrong with what he did. I mean, he took them home for his own personal study. He had no intent on leaking the information to anyone who wasn't meant to see it.

It doesnt matter what his intentions were. In Naval Nuke-School you are not allowed to bring home ANY of the materials, they are to be studied in the libraries only. Same as in the National Archives, NOTHING that is classified is allowed to leave. He knows this, he has to to be given clearance that high.

Superbelt · 07-24-2004, 02:51 PM

Ok, first, him stuffing documents down his pants and in his socks is all hearsay.

And the 9/11 commission already had access to and use all pertinent info in all of those documents. That bi-partisan body was not hampered whatsoever by Berger.

That being said it is proper that he had to leave his position on Kerry's staff and it is necessary that he is stripped of his security clearance level so he never has access to classified documents ever again.

Seaver · 07-24-2004, 03:49 PM

Wow I completely agree with Superbelt on something.

ARTelevision · 07-24-2004, 04:12 PM

Yes. It doesn't sound good at all.

07-23-2004, 09:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	Now I am curious I figure that the news has been out for about a week. I keep watching this board to see if the topic comes up, but it hasn't. To me, it is a very big story that isn't getting a lot of coverage. I am referring to Sandy Berger. It is a big story to me, not because I am against Clinton or have a bone to pick with his administration, but because my security clearance level used to be at the "nuclear secrets" level and I am familiar with the rules/procedures regarding classified/confidential/top-secret material. I know the training that we had before we were even allowed anywhere near the information. I was searched coming into the building and leaving the bulding, even if I just went out for a smoke. Hell, we got busted if we had the information on our desk and walked around the corner to get a coke. We had to sign in/out everything we touched (even if it had nothing to do with the material--the fact that it was in proximity to secrets was enough). Sandy Berger's clearance level was much higher than mine (something like "codeword" level) and he wouldn't have gotten to that level without knowing the rules/procedures regarding the handling of this material. That being said and with my background, there is no way I will believe that this guy "accidentally" left the archives with confidential material. Especially not with the additional news that is being reported (i.e. asking the guards to give him privacy, a lot of bathroom breaks, stuffing papers in his shoes, pants, etc). I dunno, I guess that I am surprised that this hasn't been posted here for discussion. Are we avoiding the topic? (not to mention the 9/11 report hasn't shown up here yet, either). Politics aside Party affiliation aside Is anybody else bothered by this? __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

07-23-2004, 09:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	well.....you may be ahead of yourself on using the term "leaking". All we know is what he is being accused of and I don't think he was leaking anything. If anything, he was probably making certain information "disappear." Still illegal, either way, just different crimes. I think intent and who the leaked info goes to are the big things behind leaking classified info. There was a case a little while ago when congress got in trouble for leaking classified info to the press. That wasn't treason (though some would make it fit their definition) it was more along the lines of partisan politics. __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

07-24-2004, 05:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	You will not see many Clintonites/Dems posting about this. Because they still want to pin ALL the blame for 911 on Bush,and to go as far as say he knew it was going to happen, and he allowed it to happen so he could invade Iraq. Berger went in and destoryed papers that probably showed Clinton had evidence OBL was behind (too many to list pick one) attacks against the US. Now this might seem small except for the fact that the Sudan wanted to serve OBL up to us, but Clinton was more concerned with saving his own ass than national security. I hope Berger gets some prison time, maybe a cell with someone named Bubba.....how ironic that would be. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

07-24-2004, 06:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	The whole thing upsets me on many different levels. 1. He's been working for the government for 30 years, the guy should effing know better, and I'm appalled at the allegations. 2. The archivists should not have let him run all over them a second time after they already suspected him of taking documents - this is very simple: if you are in charge of TS/codeword info, it is YOUR ass if someone gets out with it. 3. He damn well should have informed John Kerry, who he's been working for, that he was under FBI investigation (also, it would have been nice if White House officials, who have known about it for months, had let Kerry, as a courtesy, know about it). 4. Two days after it is leaked, a congressional investigation is underway - but still no congressional investigation into Valerie Plame's identity leak? 5. This investigation has been ongoing since spring. It's leaked NOW, two days before the release of the 9/11 report, and a week before the Democratic Convention? PLEASE.... The timing of it is pathetic partisan politics at its absolute worst, and the Republicans who leaked it should be ashamed of themselves. -One Democrat's opinion __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

07-24-2004, 09:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	I saw Berger on CNN and was somewhat taken back by his relative nonchalance regarding the issue. I'm surprised this is a non-issue since he admits to 'accidentally' throwing them away. How does this happen? Would he accidentally throw away airline tickets or tickets to the opera? This is top secret classified info and it just disappears, then to be shrugged off by Berger and it is forgotten. This sounds very fishy to me and I have to wonder how often things like this happen that no one hears about. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

07-23-2004, 09:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
VTBrian Tilted Location: Blacksburg, VA	There arn't many things in the world that make me more angry than treason, and I'm not 100% sure but I think leaking of classifed information is treason.

07-24-2004, 08:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	Reconmike, no Dem is trying to blame 9/11 on Bush, except for a few crackpots. People said the same thing about roosevelt and pearl harbor. The asshole who claims he knew where obl was was quickly proven to be a liar. Clinton was the only terrorist hunter we had until AFTER 9/11, then Bush rode in on his horse. Sudan wouldn't do shit for us. Remember Reagan left Beirut after the marine barracks bombing. Tucked his tail between his legs and didn't do shit. Berger fucked up, and he hasn't been back to the health club this week. I spoke to his wife, and she said she is hanging in there. It must be very hard on her. Berger is not accused of treason, but of partisan coverrup. The people who leaked this a week before the Dem convention are also partisan assholes willing to weaken the country to profit themselves.

07-24-2004, 09:34 AM	#9 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	Hey Peryn, I am not arguing that what sandy is alleged to have done is wrong. He has been in politics a long time. Probably too long. I think that teaches some people to not respect the law of the land. He knew the rules. Remember the head of the CIA or whatever that lost his post for having illegal files on his computer. it is just an awfully convenient leak and I am sick of the partisan politics that is wrecking the country from both sides.

07-24-2004, 10:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Look, to get classified clearance that high you go through a LOT of training on what not to do. I'm barely at Secret clearance (lvl 1), I know what he did was bullshit. There is NO WAY in archives you can accidently throw stuff away, there is NO WAY you accidently put copied documents in your socks. I dont care if he was Republican or Democrat, he needs to be stripped of all his clearance for life, and prosecuted to the highest degree.

07-24-2004, 11:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	I find nothing wrong with what he did. I mean, he took them home for his own personal study. He had no intent on leaking the information to anyone who wasn't meant to see it. Did it in any way hurt the american people or the world? no. If anything it helped us, because he was better able to use the knowledge.

07-24-2004, 02:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Ok, first, him stuffing documents down his pants and in his socks is all hearsay. And the 9/11 commission already had access to and use all pertinent info in all of those documents. That bi-partisan body was not hampered whatsoever by Berger. That being said it is proper that he had to leave his position on Kerry's staff and it is necessary that he is stripped of his security clearance level so he never has access to classified documents ever again.

07-24-2004, 03:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Wow I completely agree with Superbelt on something. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

07-24-2004, 04:12 PM	#16 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes. It doesn't sound good at all. __________________ create evolution