Israel vows to continue building barrier - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SLM3 · 07-22-2004, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hannukah harry
last time i checked, "palestinians" didn't exsist pre-1960, so that would be pretty hard to have happened. jews and arabs lived peacefully together for a rather long time, but that started to erode in the 1910's or '20's.

this is why i've never understood how people can claim that it is an illegal occupation. i can not think of any other time in history when the winner of a war has had to give up territory taken in combat. doesn't matter who started it, if there's war, winner gets what it can take. but for soem reason with isreal, that's just not okay, even though it never took territory in an offensive war, it always managed to take land by beating back its attackers.

i just don't get it.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to even start with the "Palestinians never really existed" story then we might as well agree to disagree right now. Jews, Muslims, Christians all lived together, as Palestinians, for many hundreds of years. Of course there was the First Palestinian National Congress, formed in 1919, which demanded an independant Palestinian government, but I'm sure this isn't mentioned in revisionist history.

UN (you know, the mother of Israel) law dictates that land cannot be taken through war. Simple as that.

SLM3

VTBrian · 07-23-2004, 12:58 AM

The UN is a huge joke. If UN law amounted to a hill of beans the presedent might have hesitated before invading Iraq. I say when you agresivly attack another nation you lose your right to bitch about it when the deffenders manage to occupy your land.

ubertuber · 07-23-2004, 08:40 AM

Here's what I wonder... If Israel is so determined to keep the West Bank and Gaza, what is their long term plan? At some point the occupants of the land that Israel took from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (people referred to as Palestinians) have to be taken into account. If Israel was serious about integrating occupied land, then those people would be naturalized citizens with the right to vote - and Israel would be building schools, not walls. Remember, we aren't talking about illegal immigrants. These people didn't come to Israel - Israel came to them. To me, Israel's willingness to occupy land without integrating its citizens into their population for 37 years is a sign of a certain level of disingenuity.

Let's see - people who pay taxes on their property and income, who are subject to laws that abridge their rights more than their franchised neighbors, who are stereotyped and oppressed by law, and have no representation or ability to work with the system, yet are living within the borders of a "democratic" nation... Sounds familiar, only the Israelis have tanks where the US had fire hoses, and the Palestinians have Arafat where we had Martin Luther King.

To paraphrase Thomas Friedman, an author that anyone interested in this situation should make themselves familiar with - Israel wants three things. They want to be democratic, Jewish, and to have control of all of ancient Palestine. They have to choose two out of these three - and the last 37 years have been a process of putting that choice off. Perhaps if the Palestinian people saw Israel as a creator of their future rather than its destroyer there wouldn't be enough anger to produce the civil unrest we have seen. Sure, there would always be agitators for a separate state, but I believe this protest would be a weed, not a tree. The roots would not extend so deep that the average citizen would send their daughter off to war with a belt of bombs because instead they would be saving up for her college education.

Don't forget - the Palestinian land was occupied by Jordan when Israel was created after WWII. Israel went to war with Jordan, not the Palestinian people. They won a war against Jordan, and occupied a land peopled not with Jordanians, but with Palestinians. I can see why those Palestinians are unhappy with their plight. Until the reality of that situation is recognized as a FACT, not an opinion, the Palestinians will remain a people straining against their occupiers.

whocarz · 07-23-2004, 02:56 PM

Gee, maybe if people learned some more about the history of the region, then there wouldn't be so many ignorant comments about it. True, there were no muslims 2000 years ago. IIRC, Mohammed brought about Islam sometime around the year 600, give or take 50 years. But there still was religious violence in the region before that. And how do you think Islam was spread? By the sword, that's how. There was a period of about 150 years of wars to spread Islam, which spread to Turkey and southern France. The French, or Franks as they were at the time, managed to turn back the hoard at the battle of Tours, and the Byzantine Empire stopped Islam from spreading into Greece. If you don't believe me, here is a link. http://www.carm.org/islam/islam_chronology.htm

After the expansion had stopped, there was infighting amongst those who practiced Islam, based along tribal lines. Then in 1095, Pope Urban II called for a cruade into the holy land, which sparked numerous wars and violence between the catholics, orthodox and muslims. This lasted for roughly 400 years. Then in the 17th century, the Turks invaded into Greece, which is why we now have the problems of Muslim vs Orthodox in the Balkans today. Then there are all the recent conflicts in the region in the past 100 years.

True, there hasn't been constant violence for 2000 years. But the promise of violence is always seething below the surface, and when it breaks, it's bloody, vicious, and merciless. My main point is that this is the region that spawned all three of today's modern western religions, and look at all of the violence that has been caused because of said religions. Yes, I know that even without religion, we humans would find reasons to kill each other, but when religion comes into play, people are more apt to flock to the banner of war, and commit heinous atrocities.

Of course, my comment about relocating the populace and eradicating the area was more born out of frustration than anything else, and I know it's very unrealistic. The way I see it, there will never be peace in the middle east.

07-23-2004, 08:40 AM	#43 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Here's what I wonder... If Israel is so determined to keep the West Bank and Gaza, what is their long term plan? At some point the occupants of the land that Israel took from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (people referred to as Palestinians) have to be taken into account. If Israel was serious about integrating occupied land, then those people would be naturalized citizens with the right to vote - and Israel would be building schools, not walls. Remember, we aren't talking about illegal immigrants. These people didn't come to Israel - Israel came to them. To me, Israel's willingness to occupy land without integrating its citizens into their population for 37 years is a sign of a certain level of disingenuity. Let's see - people who pay taxes on their property and income, who are subject to laws that abridge their rights more than their franchised neighbors, who are stereotyped and oppressed by law, and have no representation or ability to work with the system, yet are living within the borders of a "democratic" nation... Sounds familiar, only the Israelis have tanks where the US had fire hoses, and the Palestinians have Arafat where we had Martin Luther King. To paraphrase Thomas Friedman, an author that anyone interested in this situation should make themselves familiar with - Israel wants three things. They want to be democratic, Jewish, and to have control of all of ancient Palestine. They have to choose two out of these three - and the last 37 years have been a process of putting that choice off. Perhaps if the Palestinian people saw Israel as a creator of their future rather than its destroyer there wouldn't be enough anger to produce the civil unrest we have seen. Sure, there would always be agitators for a separate state, but I believe this protest would be a weed, not a tree. The roots would not extend so deep that the average citizen would send their daughter off to war with a belt of bombs because instead they would be saving up for her college education. Don't forget - the Palestinian land was occupied by Jordan when Israel was created after WWII. Israel went to war with Jordan, not the Palestinian people. They won a war against Jordan, and occupied a land peopled not with Jordanians, but with Palestinians. I can see why those Palestinians are unhappy with their plight. Until the reality of that situation is recognized as a FACT, not an opinion, the Palestinians will remain a people straining against their occupiers. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 07-23-2004 at 08:44 AM..

07-23-2004, 02:56 PM	#44 (permalink)
whocarz Jarhead Location: Colorado	Gee, maybe if people learned some more about the history of the region, then there wouldn't be so many ignorant comments about it. True, there were no muslims 2000 years ago. IIRC, Mohammed brought about Islam sometime around the year 600, give or take 50 years. But there still was religious violence in the region before that. And how do you think Islam was spread? By the sword, that's how. There was a period of about 150 years of wars to spread Islam, which spread to Turkey and southern France. The French, or Franks as they were at the time, managed to turn back the hoard at the battle of Tours, and the Byzantine Empire stopped Islam from spreading into Greece. If you don't believe me, here is a link. http://www.carm.org/islam/islam_chronology.htm After the expansion had stopped, there was infighting amongst those who practiced Islam, based along tribal lines. Then in 1095, Pope Urban II called for a cruade into the holy land, which sparked numerous wars and violence between the catholics, orthodox and muslims. This lasted for roughly 400 years. Then in the 17th century, the Turks invaded into Greece, which is why we now have the problems of Muslim vs Orthodox in the Balkans today. Then there are all the recent conflicts in the region in the past 100 years. True, there hasn't been constant violence for 2000 years. But the promise of violence is always seething below the surface, and when it breaks, it's bloody, vicious, and merciless. My main point is that this is the region that spawned all three of today's modern western religions, and look at all of the violence that has been caused because of said religions. Yes, I know that even without religion, we humans would find reasons to kill each other, but when religion comes into play, people are more apt to flock to the banner of war, and commit heinous atrocities. Of course, my comment about relocating the populace and eradicating the area was more born out of frustration than anything else, and I know it's very unrealistic. The way I see it, there will never be peace in the middle east. __________________ If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

07-23-2004, 12:58 AM	#42 (permalink)
VTBrian Tilted Location: Blacksburg, VA	The UN is a huge joke. If UN law amounted to a hill of beans the presedent might have hesitated before invading Iraq. I say when you agresivly attack another nation you lose your right to bitch about it when the deffenders manage to occupy your land.