Have we been duped into Iraq by the Iranians? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sparhawk · 06-04-2004, 08:58 PM

This has been bugging me for several days now, this idea that Ahmed Chalabi and his cohorts in the INC manipulated the US, in particular Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Feith on the road to war. Now there is the distinct possibility that he is and has been for some time an Iranian agent. I could almost tip my hat to the well-played game by the Iranians, only it is not a game, and hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis are dead as a result.

I'm trying to stay open-minded about it, but the growing weight of evidence (phony testimony by defectors paid by the INC, etc) is leading me to some disturbing as hell conclusions.

Here's a piece (long) from the New Yorker about Chalabi, and the Machiavellian plot he's been executing for the last 10 years, found here:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040607fa_fact1

An excerpt:

Quote:

Ahmad Chalabi, the wealthy Iraqi Shiite who spent more than a decade working for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, prides himself on his understanding of the United States and its history. “I know quite a lot about it,” he told me not long ago. It was after midnight in Baghdad, but he was still in his office in the new headquarters of the Iraqi National Congress, the exile opposition group that Chalabi helped found in 1992. As a young man, he said, he spent several years in America, earning an undergraduate and a master’s degree in mathematics from M.I.T., and a Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of Chicago. Chalabi began studying the uses of power in American politics, and the subject developed into a lifelong interest. One episode in American history particularly fascinated him, he said. “I followed very closely how Roosevelt, who abhorred the Nazis, at a time when isolationist sentiment was paramount in the United States, managed adroitly to persuade the American people to go to war. I studied it with a great deal of respect; we learned a lot from it. The Lend-Lease program committed Roosevelt to enter on Britain’s side—so we had the Iraq Liberation Act, which committed the American people for the liberation against Saddam.” The act, which Congress passed in 1998, made “regime change” in Iraq an official priority of the U.S. government; Chalabi had lobbied tirelessly for the legislation.

Three days after our conversation, Chalabi’s Baghdad home was raided at gunpoint by Iraqi police, who were supported by American troops. His offices were also searched. Chalabi had sensed that a confrontation with the Bush Administration was imminent. As he put it, “It’s customary when great events happen that the U.S. punishes its friends and rewards its enemies.” For years, he had been America’s staunchest Iraqi ally, and he had helped the Bush Administration make its case against Saddam, in part by disseminating the notion that the Baathist regime had maintained stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons, and was poised to become a nuclear power. Although Chalabi developed enemies at the C.I.A. who disputed his intelligence data and questioned his ethics, he forged a close bond with Vice-President Dick Cheney and many of the top civilians at the Pentagon, such as Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Under-Secretary of Defense Douglas Feith, and Under-Secretary of Defense William J. Luti. Yet now that the occupation of Iraq appeared to be headed toward disaster, he said, many in the Administration had united in making him the scapegoat. As Chalabi saw it, he had understood America too well, and had been too successful in influencing its foreign policy. “There is a smear campaign that says I am responsible for the liberation of Iraq,” he said. Then he added with a chuckle, “But how bad is that?”

Between 1992 and the raid on Chalabi’s home, the U.S. government funnelled more than a hundred million dollars to the Iraqi National Congress. The current Bush Administration gave Chalabi’s group at least thirty-nine million dollars. Exactly what the I.N.C. provided in exchange for these sums has yet to be fully explained. Chalabi defined his role simply. “I clarified the picture,” he said. His many critics, however, believe that he distorted it. Diplomatic and intelligence officials accuse him of exaggerating the security threat that Iraq posed to the U.S.; supplying defectors who offered misleading or bogus testimony about Saddam’s efforts to acquire nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons; promoting questionable stories connecting Saddam to Al Qaeda; and overestimating the ease with which Saddam could be replaced with a Western-style democracy.

Vincent Cannistraro, a former C.I.A. counter-terrorism specialist who now consults for the government, told me, “With Chalabi, we paid to fool ourselves. It’s horrible. In other times, it might be funny. But a lot of people are dead as a result of this. It’s reprehensible.”

Zeld2.0 · 06-04-2004, 10:16 PM

I think it is certainly possible... a nation as Iran that is anti-Iraqi would find its ways to get Iraq turned away.

That reminds me of the thing about WMDs - regardless of whether or not they were there by the time of the war, Saddam when he did have them may have used them to keep Iran away. Thus, there is the entire issue of if Saddam didn't have em, he could have used em to bluff to keep neighboring enemies away.

It's certainly possible

KillerYoda · 06-04-2004, 11:34 PM

I knew there had to be some loophole where we Americans could come out clean on the other end after the shit storm was over.

Asuka{eve} · 06-05-2004, 01:23 AM

I think we were manipulated in going to Gulf war 1.0.

hammer4all · 06-05-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka{eve}
I think we were manipulated in going to Gulf war 1.0.

Well, of course we were.

MSD · 06-05-2004, 08:12 PM

Politics is a messy business, isn't it? The second you turn your head, the guy who was shaking your hand has his hand in your pocket or a kinfe in your back. This situation and the (un)intelligence that led up to it is turning out to be so chaotic that we may not have enough fingers to point at the responsible parties.

Sparhawk · 06-05-2004, 11:06 PM

I just can't stomach the idea that we were played. By the friggin Iranians. If I was at all objective, I would say it would be appropriate irony for all the manipulation we've done to their country in the last 50 years, but I'm not, so I'm pissed off instead.

phredgreen · 06-05-2004, 11:21 PM

while it seems clear (by that report, at least) that Chalabi was pulling strings to get what he wanted, it still remains unclear exactly why he was playing the games he played.

Quote:

as seen here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...st/3772575.stm

Chalabi denies leaking US secrets
Iraqi politician Ahmed Chalabi has denied reports he warned Iran that US spies had cracked its secret codes.
Sources in Washington have indicated an investigation is under way to check if US agents may have revealed the information to the politician.

Mr Chalabi - who was backed by the US administration until recently - described the reports as "stupid from every aspect".

Iran has denied the reports, which Mr Chalabi's allies suggest are a smear campaign ahead of the Iraq handover.

"Where would I get this from?" Mr Chalabi asked in an interview for AP news agency which he gave during a visit to the Iraqi city of Najaf.

"I have no such information."

As US officials confirmed that an FBI investigation was under way, the New York Times reported that civilian Pentagon employees were being tested with lie detectors.

"It's my understanding they're looking into every aspect of how it occurred, who is responsible and what the implications are," said Senator Mark Dayton, after a hearing on the issue.

If the story is true, he said, it would be "a major, major, very major breach of security".

'Absurd'

According to US media reports, Mr Chalabi told Iran's chief spy in Baghdad in April that the US was reading the Iranian intelligence service's communications traffic.

US intelligence is said to have discovered the alleged betrayal when it read a cable which the Iranian station chief had sent to his superiors in Iran detailing the conversation with Mr Chalabi.

Richard Perle, a former Pentagon adviser and one of Mr Chalabi's strongest backers, told AP he thought the idea that Iran's top spy in Iraq would use a compromised communications channel was inconceivable.

"The idea that the Iranians, having been informed that their codes were broken, would then use their broken codes back to Iran is absurd," he said.

Funds stopped

Iran has had public contacts with Mr Chalabi, who like most Iranians is a Shia Muslim, but denies reports of any leak.

"Iran had no special intelligence contacts or activities with Chalabi and we don't have now," said Supreme National Security Council Secretary Hassan Rowhani.

Correspondents note that news of the leak broke after the Bush administration cut funding for Mr Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress group, citing concerns about the value of intelligence it had supplied.

so he says bullocks, and the only people who are accusing him of anything to do with the iranians at this point are the media. the united states government has shitcanned him, but haven't said why. i think this speculation is just that and will remain so until we get some kind of offical report action coming down from the CIA or FBI or another of those (increasingly) disreputable three-letter acronyms.

06-04-2004, 11:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
KillerYoda The Original Emo Gangsta Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository	I knew there had to be some loophole where we Americans could come out clean on the other end after the shit storm was over. __________________ "So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

06-05-2004, 11:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	I just can't stomach the idea that we were played. By the friggin Iranians. If I was at all objective, I would say it would be appropriate irony for all the manipulation we've done to their country in the last 50 years, but I'm not, so I'm pissed off instead. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

06-04-2004, 10:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	I think it is certainly possible... a nation as Iran that is anti-Iraqi would find its ways to get Iraq turned away. That reminds me of the thing about WMDs - regardless of whether or not they were there by the time of the war, Saddam when he did have them may have used them to keep Iran away. Thus, there is the entire issue of if Saddam didn't have em, he could have used em to bluff to keep neighboring enemies away. It's certainly possible

06-05-2004, 01:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
Asuka{eve} Addict Location: Oh God, the rain!	I think we were manipulated in going to Gulf war 1.0.

06-05-2004, 08:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Politics is a messy business, isn't it? The second you turn your head, the guy who was shaking your hand has his hand in your pocket or a kinfe in your back. This situation and the (un)intelligence that led up to it is turning out to be so chaotic that we may not have enough fingers to point at the responsible parties.