loquitur

Really, I don't think we know enough about Jesus to say that (or to say it's wrong, for that matter). We have only very limited information about his life, very little of it first-hand and none contemporaneous, and what we have was cherry-picked (or given a gloss) to make certain points.

Willravel

It's not "by force", it's by contract. By being a citizen of a country, you are required to pay taxes to pay for services provided to you as a citizen. A government no more takes money by force than McDonalds takes your money by force when you order a hamburger and fries. You've agreed to an arrangement, and as such you are required to live up to your end. If you receive the services but do not pay, you are in breach of contract and thus are obviously subject to punitive measures. In the more fortunate countries, you can choose the legislators that put in place the rules and can vote on state and local government rules yourself, thus having the freedom to control your contract to a point.

If you do not want to pay the government for the services they provide, you can find another country with another contract more to your liking. I should warn you, though, a country with a very small government in which most are armed, taxes are very low, there are few to no social programs and there are no unions looks more like Somalia than it does the conservative's romanticized notion of pre-industrial America.

loquitur

Will, no such contract exists. You signed no such contract and neither did I. The social contract is a philosopher's construct -- which is useful for certain purposes, but because there is no written contract no one knows its precise terms. It certainly doesn't tell you the proper level of services or taxation. The state imposes its requirements, definitionally, by force. If it was a contract you could opt out. But you can't.

Willravel

I'm talking about the reality of what citizenship entails. No, I never put pen to paper, but by living in this country and enjoying the benefits of government services, I am required to pay taxes. It no more or less coercive than any other arrangement of good or services for currency.

And you most certainly can opt out. You can leave. You move to another country, get a job, and become a citizen there. If you were unsatisfied with a rental agreement, you'd need to leave in order to "opt out".

loquitur

Nope, there is no opt-out -- if you move to another country you still have to submit to the threat of force from the authorities there. The only place you get protection by contract is a place where there is no govt, where you need to hire mercenaries to protect you, and even then you need to worry that someone else can pay them more.

No, there's no opt-out. You just can't get around the fact that govt means the use or threat of force. We accept it because we need to but let's not sugarcoat what it is.

Willravel

First, that's not strictly true. There are places on Earth where no government asserts power. There are many islands that, while are considered territory of a government, do not have government presence. There are also failed states in which large areas are entirely lawless. That's not really the point, though.

My point is that your agreement with the United States government does have an opt out, just like a rental agreement or mortgage. Still, unless you want to be homeless, you'll probably want to enter into a different agreement eventually, but you do have that homeless option. You're acting as if they're all the same agent, though, which is not true. There are many governments with many different contracts. They are not just one big "we're going to use force to coerce money" unit.

Edit: we're getting a bit off topic. This conversation may be better hosted elsewhere if you wish to continue.

aceventura3

Stand firm in your convictions.

If you go to a party meeting, in my experience even in different states and counties, they begin a meeting citing the Pledge and then followed by a prayer. In many cases it is not simply a generic prayer, but a prayer to Jesus and if a pastor is doing the prayer it usually turns into a sermon. A gentle reminder to the Chair that not everyone is a Christian, wants to be converted and that the meeting is not a religious service usually helps for a few months - you have to be persistent. Another option is to become the chair and set the agenda, excluding the prayer all together. But actually, this is not a Republican Party issue, generally in some parts of the country, even at youth football games they will do a prayer right after or before playing the national anthem, it can be a bad example to the kids when the home team announcer is asking Jesus to help the home team rip the little heads off of the other team, figuratively. I have also gone to civic and service organization meeting where they do the same thing. I generally don't go to Democratic Party functions and I don't know what they do. When I was in the Libertarian Party, they made it a point not to pray, but they did read the party mission statement before each meeting - to me the first 5 or 10 minutes of any meeting is a good time to do some manicure work, so I always bring a nail file and clippers.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Sure an atheist can be a Republican....so can someone who is gay....or someone who supports a woman's right to choose.

But, in all those cases, he/she would be very unlikely to ever rise to level of influence or power within the party....and with the party moving even further right, they are become even more marginalized if not outright ostracized.

---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

In Texas, with the election of Tea Party supported and more extreme conservative candidates, the state House has moved even further rights and the current Speaker is facing a revolt because he is Jewish...and not Christian enough:

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Dick Chaney, has a daughter who happens to be gay:

Cheney Offers Support For Gay Marriage (VIDEO)

Colon Powell on the right to choose:

Source: Speech to the Republican National Convention Aug 12, 1996

Colin Powell on Abortion

And it is my view that an atheist will be accepted no differently in the Republican party than in the Democratic party.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace...your man Cheney is a states rights guy. To suggest, as in your link, that Cheney is progressive on gay rights or protected rights of any minority group (or women) is laughable.

I agree that an avowed athiest could probably never win a national or statewide election in either party.

Can a gay Republican win a primary in in statewide-elective office? I dont think so.

Can a pro-choice Republican survive a primary? Perhaps in a few states, but dont count on it.

Would Senate Republicans elect a pro-choice leader in the same manner as the Democrats elected a pro-life leader (Harry Reid). No way.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I am republican and I really don't care if a person is gay, or an atheist. I think viable fetuses should have a right to live. When I have discussions with Republicans we talk about the issues, more times than not liberals focus on identity politics.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

You talk about issues? ...with who? Those folks you claim have "real" American values (paraphrasing) as you posted in another discussion?

When you run for elective office in NC supporting gay rights, let me know how that works out for you.

And as to identity politics, only one party has numerous candidates who campaign on restoring (imposing) their version of "Christian" values to the nation ( as opposed to candidates who simply say they have such values at a personal level).

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

Can you imagine a Muslim candidate winning a Republican primary anywhere?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Are you taking the position that there are no real American values?

I tried to explain the concept in the other thread, and I don't get what your actual position is. Are you suggesting there are no extreme right and extreme left values that are not reflective of what makes America the nation that it is?

Are you suggesting this country has no identity as defined by real American values?

There is the knee jerk reaction to the suggestion of real American values and then there is thoughtful reflection on the issue, let me know when you get beyond the knee jerk reaction.

Deal. I am considering getting more involved and I may run for a state office. My concern is not my position on gay rights, but my lack of tact. The country is changing and so is NC. Even the Democrats are forging new ground in NC:

Dec 8, 2010
Foxx 1st mayor to meet with gay community - CharlotteObserver.com

Yes. Niki Haley Gov. elect in SC is not Muslim, but she is female and of Indian descent. Not too much of a stretch for me to see a Muslim Republican win a primary. Or how about Jindal, he may even be a contender in 2012 for Pres. or VP. There are many in the party who don't fit your stereotyping.

I also find it very ironic on the issue of race for example. Black Republicans frequently win in mostly white and Republican districts, but you rarely have Black Democrats win in mostly white Democrat districts. But, Democrats often call Republicans racist. What's up with that?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace...my problem with your concept of "American values" is when you (and those who share your values) suggest your values are MORE American than those with whom you disagree.

And btw, Mayor Anthony Fox is black and a Democrat.

We'll talk again when you can point to an openly gay man or woman or a Muslim winning a Republican primary.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

I thought the only values that could be considered "American" are liberty and justice within the context of a democratic society.

All other values are across the board and should be defended because of the values mentioned above.

I find discussions of values often occur as though the 20th century never happened, but that's just me, maybe I'm hallucinating.

Correction: I find that discussions of values often occur as though people want to undo what happened in the 20th century. The call to "return to core American values" to me sound like "let's get rid of the social progressivism of the 20th century."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

there are a lot of conservatives who can't cope with the fact that value is a rhetoric, a way of framing certain types of sentences that are thereby made to refer to the world in a particular range of ways.

values have to be something substantive, like a tree stump or a napkin. things. things you can put in your pocket and walk around with and that won't leak out and stain your pants so you look incontinent. solid. like a bulldozer. but small. like a little bulldozer then. a matchbox.

values are things that you can put in your pocket and carry around that don't leak onto your pants just in case someone not inside your skull asks: "so just how american are you, anyway? and how would i know?" because that way you're prepared:

you can take them out of your pocket and line them up on the table in front of you.
tree stump. napkin. little yellow bulldozer.
i'm like totally american, bucko.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Either my point of view is twisted or yours is. The use of the term "more" in this context does not reflect superiority or inferiority in my opinion. A Chevy is more reflective of American values than a Cadillac - I say so what? My next car could be a Chevy or it could be a Cadillac - I determine what I value.

The point was that the there is a misconception that Democrats are materially ahead of Republicans on the issue of gay rights and acceptance. The thought that a major story locally would be the Mayor meeting with the "gay community" in 2010 says we (all of us) have a long way to go.

No we won't - because i don't care and I would not even know if a man or woman in elected office is gay or not unless they made a point of it. In my book there is no need to make a point of it.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

A core question - what are those things that make cultures unique or identifiable?

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Just stopping right there from your post. It makes me think that a person who believes the above has no foundation upon which they measure their purpose or course in life and that they would drift aimlessly.

Even in failure to live up to values, those that have them have a guidepost.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

History, art/crafts, beliefs/values, social expectations/practices, language/dialect---things like that.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

Using "history" as an example of what could help define national values in the context of your previous post :

the evolution of social progressivism was a reflection of national values, a call to return, would not create a condition where history would evolve differently. When there is a call to "return to core American values" it is a call to return to the core values that actually allowed for the social change that occurred in the 20th century.

Specifically for example, the core values that drove Martin Luther King during the Civil Rights Movement in the US was grounded in measuring a person by the content of character, or equal opportunity. Today civil rights leaders hold a core value of redress and equal outcomes. Given those two choices I prefer a call to the return of the core American values that drove the Civil Rights movement as exemplified by MLK, not a furthering of the current view held by many on civil rights. This defines the current value struggle in this key social issue. It is not about race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc. and I think the core question is misunderstood by many.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

ace, a couple of things:

1) Is the gay rights movement not about measuring a person by the content of their character? If you support this idea of core values—and if Republicans do too—then this would mean supporting the idea of gay families as being legitimate families, including their right to have their marriages performed and recognized.

2) As one example, what is Glenn Beck calling for with regard to returning to core American values?

Would returning to these values you hint at make it easier for social change to accept homosexuality as a legitimate orientation? To accept the gay family?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

Yes and no. I believe some see it as you describe and I thinksome see the gay rights issue as a sort of protest movement against what they may see as conformist values.

Having a core value doesn't make it the "right" (however you define it) value. At one point a core value of southern plantation owners was that slavery was perfectly acceptable. In the south that value was reflective of the culture. it took outside influences, including a war, to change that core value.

If a person was anti-slavery they were out of step with that southern cultural value. The point was not for that person to be insulted if they were told that they did not hold "real" southern values, but to celebrate that and then act according to their convictions. Those are the kinds of people that change the world.

I see the call for the return to core American values as a call to return to things like, the spirit of adventure, exploration, risk taking, individualism, fortitude, courage and some other characteristics that made this country what it is today. I do not see any of those things in conflict with the growing acceptance of gay rights.

I do acknowledge that there are some religious extremist who are activists against gay rights, but I think the numbers are small and their influence is diminishing. I also believe there are some people who, for a variety of reasons feel threatened by homosexuality. And I am consistent on this point, when a person expresses a legitimate concern about feeling threatened, we need to listen and address the issue in an adult manner. I also feel I have to repeat this but here it goes for the record - there are some people who simply hate and nothing can be done to change that - I think that number in percentage terms is small.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."