I went to the ACLU website today. . . - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mondak · 05-11-2004, 08:52 AM

Horror of horrors right? Well, I am just at my wits end and I am not sure what to do.

Mondak - I never knew you were a Pinko bleeding heart wus!

For those of you who do not know me, I am a person who votes fiscal policy. I believe our government is asking to much of us today and I feel that we are being governed from far away both geographically and philosophically. Paticularly in light of our capabilities to communicate in the modern world, I feel that the federal government oversees areas that should only be handled locally if they should be handled by a government at all. My view on the federal government is that it should only be stepping in on issues that are needed to address a true public good that could not be handled by private parties / the market itself and cannot be addressed locally. In addition, my view on the definition of a public good is very limited in comparison to most folks.

That being said, I have not spent a lot of time with the ACLU folks. My focus has always been on areas of our country that will help grow the economy and allow business people to operate and see a return on their risk. While there is still a lot the ACLU is behind that I really don't jive with, there are a few things that I have to take another look at. In general, I don't like ACLU views that call for new programs, more money to be spent on things or areas that the government should fund programs. This may not be on any program's individual merit, I just don't like the government involved in any of that. A couple areas that they did not seem to far off on:

Criminal Justice (paticularly as it related to privacy)
Disability Rights
Drug Policy
Free Speech
HIV/AIDS
Lesbian & Gay Rights
Privacy & Technology
Racial Equality
Religious Liberty
Reproductive Rights
Voting Rights
Women's Rights

Not that they are perfect on these things, but certainly interesting. I suppose I would like the thoughts of some TFP members on the ACLU. While I want to hear from everyone, I would be particularly interested in folks who view themselves as fiscally conservative and socially moderate. I don't really feel like there are Legislators or organizations out there who represent folks like me and would like to hear about any that are out there.

http://www.aclu.org/

hammer4all · 05-11-2004, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mondak
In general, I don't like ACLU views that call for new programs, more money to be spent on things or areas that the government should fund programs. This may not be on any program's individual merit, I just don't like the government involved in any of that.

The ACLU is a Bill of Rights-protecting organization. When have they ever advocated for new social programs?

Mondak · 05-11-2004, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammer4all
The ACLU is a Bill of Rights-protecting organization. When have they ever advocated for new social programs?

Actually there are a lot of examples on their web site. I was somewhat surprised myself. The first one that came to mind was that they wanted to have the government fund an organization called the LSC. This is used to represent poor people in class action suits and challanges to constitutionality. It is also used to suppliment public defender types. There are other examples on the site as well but I won't comment on them or even this example.

MSD · 05-13-2004, 09:04 AM

Without someone to whine about every little rights violation, we wouldn't have many rights left. I support the ACLU, and speaking of pinko bleeding heart wusses, I'm a "card-carrying" member.

Lebell · 05-13-2004, 10:10 AM

I do not support the ACLU.

kutulu · 05-13-2004, 11:23 AM

Someone has to stand up for the Constitution, otherwise the govt will slowly make it irrelevant in the "interest of our safety"

Kadath · 05-13-2004, 11:53 AM

As long as we're just casting our votes, I do support the ACLU.

nanofever · 05-13-2004, 01:41 PM

I support the ACLU, EFF and, usually, the NRA.

Sparhawk · 05-13-2004, 01:49 PM

I've got the ACLU for my 1st and 3rd through 15th or so, and I've got the NRA for the 2nd. I'm set.

tecoyah · 05-13-2004, 03:09 PM

ACLU....yes, most certainly during these times of er.....um....constitutional revision.

Mondak · 05-13-2004, 06:44 PM

An interesting follow on

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May12.html

Quote:

ACLU Was Forced to Revise Release on Patriot Act Suit
Justice Dept. Cited Secrecy Rules
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 13, 2004; Page A27

When a federal judge ruled two weeks ago that the American Civil Liberties Union could finally reveal the existence of a lawsuit challenging the USA Patriot Act, the group issued a news release.

But the next day, according to new documents released yesterday, the ACLU was forced to remove two paragraphs from the release posted on its Web site, after the Justice Department complained that the group had violated court secrecy rules.

One paragraph described the type of information that FBI agents could request under the law, while another merely listed the briefing schedule in the case, according to court documents and the original news release.

The dispute set off a furious round of court filings in a case that serves as both a challenge to, and an illustration of, the far-reaching power of the Patriot Act. Approved by Congress in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the law gives the government greater latitude and secrecy in counterterrorism investigations and includes a provision allowing the FBI to secretly demand customer records from Internet providers and other businesses without a court order.

The ACLU first filed its lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of such demands, known as national security letters, on April 6, but the secrecy rules of the Patriot Act required the challenge to be filed under seal. A ruling April 28 allowed the release of a heavily censored version of the complaint, but the ACLU is still forbidden from revealing many details of the case, including the identity of another plaintiff who has joined in the lawsuit. The law forbids targets of national security letters to disclose that they have received one.

ACLU lawyer Ann Beeson said the court order also means that she "cannot confirm or deny" whether the ACLU is representing the second plaintiff. The group is the only counsel listed in court documents.

The dispute over the ACLU's April 28 news release centered on two paragraphs. The first laid out the court's schedule for receiving legal briefs and noted the name of the New York-based judge in the case, U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero.

The second paragraph read: "The provision under challenge allows an FBI agent to write a letter demanding the disclosure of the name, screen names, addresses, e-mail header information, and other sensitive information held by 'electronic communication service providers.' "

Justice lawyers said that both paragraphs violated a secrecy order and that the ACLU should be required to seek an exemption to publicize the information, court records show. Justice spokesman Charles Miller declined to comment yesterday.

"It simply never occurred to us that this information would be covered by the sealing order, because it's completely non-sensitive, generic information," Beeson said.

The dispute was partly resolved yesterday. Marrero ruled that the briefing schedule could be publicized, along with edited versions of other court filings. But the paragraph describing the information that can be sought remains absent.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

I found this part especially interesting:
...One paragraph described the type of information that FBI agents could request under the law

Let me get this straight...I can't even know what type of information the FBI can obtain about me without a warrant? I don't even have the RIGHT to know what they can seize be it an internet log or my power bill ? That is a load of crap for sure!

jarsh · 05-14-2004, 12:19 PM

The ACLU is a valuable organization in my humble opinion.

"Mondak - I never knew you were a Pinko bleeding heart wus!" That's pretty insulting, i dont think i'm a wuss and dont act like one. were you trying to create a healthy and respectful debate?

The_wall · 05-14-2004, 01:04 PM

Jarsh I think he was just joking around. I'm defineatly in favor of the ACLU.

jarsh · 05-14-2004, 01:13 PM

<==== robot

Mondak · 05-14-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jarsh

"Mondak - I never knew you were a Pinko bleeding heart wus!" That's pretty insulting, i dont think i'm a wuss and dont act like one. were you trying to create a healthy and respectful debate?

Well - for the most part, I was making fun of myself. I never gave the ACLU the time of day before. Somewhat because of my traditional stance on things and somewhat because of preconcieved. Hopefully it did not put you off too much. . .

mike059 · 05-14-2004, 04:03 PM

I think that the ACLU is one of the best things going. They may not be popular in some sectors, but at least they take a stand on our rights instead of letting our rights fly by the wayside in these days of Ashcroft and his followers in their quest to "protect" us.

Frowning Budah · 05-14-2004, 08:01 PM

I don't always agree with what the ACLU does, but I do believe we need some kind of organization that espouses the less than popular view.

Paq · 05-15-2004, 09:22 AM

yeah, sometimes, i think the ACLU does some crazy shtuff. Support for Nambla, etc, but overall, i am a supporter of them. Especially during these "Constitution..what's that?" times of the gov't...

nanofever · 05-15-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paq
yeah, sometimes, i think the ACLU does some crazy shtuff. Support for Nambla, etc, but overall, i am a supporter of them. Especially during these "Constitution..what's that?" times of the gov't...

I swear this is a massive pet peeve of mine. The ACLU does NOT support NAMBLA. The ACLU supports the right for NAMBLA to exercise their first amendment rights.

The ACLU is in the business of keeping civil liberties avaliable in all situations not making "moral" decisions.

HamiC · 05-15-2004, 06:04 PM

Huge generalization coming......I believe that when there are not at least two sides to contest an issue, you typically end up with a very poor result.

I would no sooner want a exclusively single-party government or governement with no internal checks and balances than I would want a government with nobody "on the outside" to challenge it. I am a member of the ACLU less for its specific positions (although I agree with many) and more for my desire to ensure both sides can be heard.

Paq · 05-15-2004, 11:52 PM

nano, you're right, i was merely picking out the one thing that EVERYONE seems to harp on...

but yeah, i do admire them for defending the 1st amendment vehemently

Zeld2.0 · 05-16-2004, 06:00 PM

Sure they might defend organizations that are controversial (though not necessarily their position), I'm glad they do because if you or anyone has your rights violated, they're there to defend it

fnaqzna · 05-16-2004, 06:12 PM

I've got my ACLU card... and a Sierra Club card too.

I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

Zeld2.0 · 05-16-2004, 06:17 PM

ah very libertarian

Fred181 · 05-22-2004, 01:22 PM

A card holder as well. I think the ACLU gets pegged as being a "bleeding heart liberal" organization by many conservatives because of a few of the extreme positions that they take, however much of what they are trying to defend should be appreciated by all of us i.e. 1st ammendment rights, constitutional protections etc.

If for no other reason I think that EVERYONE should support the ACLU for their efforts in fighting Ashcroft's DESTRUCTION of your constitutional rights via the patriot acts:

Quote:

Originally posted by Mondak
Let me get this straight...I can't even know what type of information the FBI can obtain about me without a warrant? I don't even have the RIGHT to know what they can seize be it an internet log or my power bill ? That is a load of crap for sure!

Here here

05-11-2004, 08:52 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mondak Industrialist Location: Southern California	I went to the ACLU website today. . . Horror of horrors right? Well, I am just at my wits end and I am not sure what to do. *Mondak - I never knew you were a Pinko bleeding heart wus!* For those of you who do not know me, I am a person who votes fiscal policy. I believe our government is asking to much of us today and I feel that we are being governed from far away both geographically and philosophically. Paticularly in light of our capabilities to communicate in the modern world, I feel that the federal government oversees areas that should only be handled locally if they should be handled by a government at all. My view on the federal government is that it should only be stepping in on issues that are needed to address a true public good that could not be handled by private parties / the market itself and cannot be addressed locally. In addition, my view on the definition of a public good is very limited in comparison to most folks. That being said, I have not spent a lot of time with the ACLU folks. My focus has always been on areas of our country that will help grow the economy and allow business people to operate and see a return on their risk. While there is still a lot the ACLU is behind that I really don't jive with, there are a few things that I have to take another look at. In general, I don't like ACLU views that call for new programs, more money to be spent on things or areas that the government should fund programs. This may not be on any program's individual merit, I just don't like the government involved in any of that. A couple areas that they did not seem to far off on: Criminal Justice (paticularly as it related to privacy) Disability Rights Drug Policy Free Speech HIV/AIDS Lesbian & Gay Rights Privacy & Technology Racial Equality Religious Liberty Reproductive Rights Voting Rights Women's Rights Not that they are perfect on these things, but certainly interesting. I suppose I would like the thoughts of some TFP members on the ACLU. While I want to hear from everyone, I would be particularly interested in folks who view themselves as fiscally conservative and socially moderate. I don't really feel like there are Legislators or organizations out there who represent folks like me and would like to hear about any that are out there. http://www.aclu.org/ __________________ All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as self-evident. ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860) Last edited by Mondak; 05-11-2004 at 09:30 AM..

05-13-2004, 10:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I do not support the ACLU. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-13-2004, 11:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	As long as we're just casting our votes, I do support the ACLU. __________________ it's quiet in here

05-13-2004, 01:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	I support the ACLU, EFF and, usually, the NRA. __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

05-13-2004, 01:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	I've got the ACLU for my 1st and 3rd through 15th or so, and I've got the NRA for the 2nd. I'm set. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

05-13-2004, 09:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Without someone to whine about every little rights violation, we wouldn't have many rights left. I support the ACLU, and speaking of pinko bleeding heart wusses, I'm a "card-carrying" member.

05-13-2004, 11:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Someone has to stand up for the Constitution, otherwise the govt will slowly make it irrelevant in the "interest of our safety"

05-13-2004, 03:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	ACLU....yes, most certainly during these times of er.....um....constitutional revision. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-14-2004, 12:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
jarsh Insane	The ACLU is a valuable organization in my humble opinion. "Mondak - I never knew you were a Pinko bleeding heart wus!" That's pretty insulting, i dont think i'm a wuss and dont act like one. were you trying to create a healthy and respectful debate?

05-14-2004, 01:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	Jarsh I think he was just joking around. I'm defineatly in favor of the ACLU. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

05-14-2004, 01:13 PM	#14 (permalink)
jarsh Insane	<==== robot __________________ Who is John Galt?

05-14-2004, 04:03 PM	#16 (permalink)
mike059 Tilted Location: Pensacola, Florida	I think that the ACLU is one of the best things going. They may not be popular in some sectors, but at least they take a stand on our rights instead of letting our rights fly by the wayside in these days of Ashcroft and his followers in their quest to "protect" us.

05-14-2004, 08:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	I don't always agree with what the ACLU does, but I do believe we need some kind of organization that espouses the less than popular view.

05-15-2004, 09:22 AM	#18 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	yeah, sometimes, i think the ACLU does some crazy shtuff. Support for Nambla, etc, but overall, i am a supporter of them. Especially during these "Constitution..what's that?" times of the gov't... __________________ Live. Chris

05-15-2004, 06:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
HamiC Insane Location: USA	Huge generalization coming......I believe that when there are not at least two sides to contest an issue, you typically end up with a very poor result. I would no sooner want a exclusively single-party government or governement with no internal checks and balances than I would want a government with nobody "on the outside" to challenge it. I am a member of the ACLU less for its specific positions (although I agree with many) and more for my desire to ensure both sides can be heard.

05-16-2004, 06:17 PM	#24 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	ah very libertarian

05-15-2004, 11:52 PM	#21 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	nano, you're right, i was merely picking out the one thing that EVERYONE seems to harp on... but yeah, i do admire them for defending the 1st amendment vehemently __________________ Live. Chris

05-16-2004, 06:00 PM	#22 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Sure they might defend organizations that are controversial (though not necessarily their position), I'm glad they do because if you or anyone has your rights violated, they're there to defend it

05-16-2004, 06:12 PM	#23 (permalink)
fnaqzna Meat Popsicle Location: Left Coast	I've got my ACLU card... and a Sierra Club card too. I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal.