Michigan to force brain surgery on toddler - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Shokan · 05-07-2003, 10:33 AM

Does the state have the right?

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http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news...66.htm&sc=1110

Michigan May Compel Surgery for Toddler

By JAMES PRICHARD
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) - Surgeons say 2-year-old Noshin Hoque will probably die within a year or two unless the tumor growing deep in her brain is removed. But the operation itself will probably kill her or leave her blind or paralyzed.

Given those odds, the little girl's parents, Jalaz and Shaheda Hoque, decided not to let doctors operate, and instead started taking her to a Montreal homeopath for herbal and nutritional treatments in hopes of curing her.

But now prosecutors have taken the Hoques to court to force them to go ahead with the surgery in a case that revisits the question of who should decide what is best for the child when it comes to lifesaving medical treatment.

``There's no other outcome but death, without surgery,'' said David Gorcyca, prosecutor in suburban Detroit's Oakland County. ``I think if I'm a parent given a 30 percent fighting chance of survival, I'm taking that shot every time.''

On Friday, Circuit Judge Martha Anderson ordered the parents to allow a state social worker to see Noshin and gauge her condition, after the Hoques turned away the last one who came to their home. The couple were also ordered to provide prosecutors with complete records of their daughter's treatments.

A hearing was set for May 12, when the judge will receive the results of a court-ordered brain scan on Noshin to determine the effectiveness of the homeopathic treatment.

The walnut-size cancerous tumor lies against several important arteries and affects Noshin's speech, vision and gait. But the location of the mass could make surgery risky.

Two pediatric neurosurgeons told the couple that there was a 70 percent to 80 percent chance that their daughter would emerge either dead or with severe complications. If Noshin survived the initial surgery, she would then have to undergo chemotherapy and follow-up operations to have any chance at living, said the couple's lawyer, Charles Cooper.

The couple, an electrician and his homemaker wife, are from Bangladesh, where homeopathy is more widely accepted. The Hoques (pronounced HOKE) fear surgery would kill Noshin or leave her in a vegetative state, Cooper said.

``They didn't want her to be going into the hospital and having the top of her head removed and then all of these different surgeries and having her go through all of this,'' Cooper said.

Cooper said Noshin is doing much better now that she is receiving alternative medicine; her left eye does not roam anymore, and her left arm is stronger than it has been for a while.

Noshin's pediatrician at Children's Hospital of Michigan in Detroit contacted the state after her parents, who live in Royal Oak, stopped bringing her to appointments. Prosecutors filed an emergency petition to intervene.

Such disputes occur from time to time around the country, and judges have generally ruled that parents cannot withhold lifesaving medical care from a seriously ill child.

Parents often cite religious beliefs when rejecting medical treatment for their ill children. Christian Scientists believe in prayer instead of conventional medicine, while Jehovah's Witnesses oppose blood transfusions.

But that is not the case with the Hoques.

Lawrence Schneiderman, a doctor of internal medicine and a medical ethicist who teaches at the University of California at San Diego, said the Hoques' situation is also different because surgery in this case is so risky.

``The clinical condition of the child is so serious that quality-of-life considerations should take precedence over a prolongation of life. Therefore, the parents have a right to decide what they think is in the best interest of their child,'' he said.

But Schneiderman warned that any suggestion that homeopathic treatment can cure or ease cancer is quackery. He suggested that the Hoques instead concentrate on making their daughter as comfortable as possible.

``There are nicer, easier, better things you can do for her than take her up to Canada for this foolishness,'' he said.

Bob Biter · 05-07-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shokan
``The clinical condition of the child is so serious that quality-of-life considerations should take precedence over a prolongation of life. Therefore, the parents have a right to decide what they think is in the best interest of their child,'' he said.

I completely agree in this case.

Quote:

But Schneiderman warned that any suggestion that homeopathic treatment can cure or ease cancer is quackery. He suggested that the Hoques instead concentrate on making their daughter as comfortable as possible.

A superficial warning completely devoid of sense, but that seems natural coming from someone who wouldn't have to live with this situation 24/7 and doesn't have a clue as to what the parents must be going through.

Quote:

``There are nicer, easier, better things you can do for her than take her up to Canada for this foolishness,'' he said.

Really, like what? Possibly killing her for good or leaving her worse off than ever before? I hope this guy doesn't have any kids...

studkickass · 05-07-2003, 11:22 AM

it is the parents decision. thats how I feel.

Skettios · 05-07-2003, 12:59 PM

But Bob, the kid is gonna die anyway.

If they let the kid die, it's negligence, and they should go to jail, just like the crazies that think you can pray to heal injuries.

studkickass, we've gone so far past parents having any kind of say in anything in this country. If that's the opinion of the nation, they should have said something 30 years ago, when the Child Protective services was formed.

Ask yourselves what the best interest of the child is.

Isn't that our first priority?

The_Dude · 05-07-2003, 03:39 PM

i morally agree w/ the state of michigan, but i think the parents have the ultimate decision.

crewsor · 05-07-2003, 06:27 PM

If the prognosis was better than 50%, I would agree with them forcing the surgery, although they likely wouldn't need to. Either way, odds are the child is going to die.
I would probably go with the surgery, but you don't really know untill its happening to you.
Alls I know for sure is , if its my child, I believe I have not only the right, but the responsibility to decide what is in their best interest, not the state.

darksparkles · 05-07-2003, 09:29 PM

agreeing completely with bob.

and herbal remedies have worked in the past. there's a different approach for everyone. has surgery completely eliminated cancer in everyone? no.

while i do agree it might be smart in this case to go with the surgery, however, it's not right to force it, especially since the parents are trying some method.

suviko · 05-08-2003, 02:43 AM

Can parents also chose to beat their kid to death? I think the state should make an intervention when parents are risking their child's life. Surgery hasn't complitely eliminated cancer in 100% cases, but it is BY FAR better option than to chew a few funny leaves and cross your fingers. This "some method" could be even magnetic fields, color therapy or any other "alternative remedy", I don't give a dhingy, they can do that AND have the surgery. Why is it one or the other?

Bob Biter · 05-08-2003, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by suviko
Can parents also chose to beat their kid to death?

What does that have to do with parents trying to heal their child without killing her/leaving her worse off? We're talking about parents that looked at the facts, consulted physicians and are doing their best for their daughter without aggravating her state.

Quote:

I think the state should make an intervention when parents are risking their child's life.

Very true, but in this case, even successful surgery represents a risk to the child's life and well-being. Being left a cancer-free vegetable doesn't sound like a valid option to me, especially since once this story is resolved, the general public will move on, while the parents still have to deal with whatever situation they're left with.

Quote:

Surgery hasn't complitely eliminated cancer in 100% cases, but it is BY FAR better option than to chew a few funny leaves and cross your fingers. This "some method" could be even magnetic fields, color therapy or any other "alternative remedy", I don't give a dhingy, they can do that AND have the surgery. Why is it one or the other?

They can't do both because if the surgery is unsuccessful, they child will either be dead or irreversably brain-damaged. Don't get me wrong, I sincerely wish that she could just go through with the surgery and be done with it, but the facts of the case are stacked squarely against her. Schneidermann said that the parents should make their child more comfortable and this is exactly what they're doing.

Bob Biter · 05-08-2003, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skettios
But Bob, the kid is gonna die anyway.

If they let the kid die, it's negligence, and they should go to jail, just like the crazies that think you can pray to heal injuries.

They are not letting their child die, they're trying to help her and make her feel as comfortable as possible. Giving her herbal treatment is a concrete act that simply cannot be written off as negligence. Sure, it might not work and the child might die, but the risk is similar to her undergoing surgery.

Quote:

Ask yourselves what the best interest of the child is.

Isn't that our first priority?

Yes, the child's well-being is the first priority and her parents are seeing to it.

suviko · 05-08-2003, 06:24 AM

hrdwareguy · 05-08-2003, 06:31 AM

Personally if it were my child, I think I would tell the government to go to hell and start having massive amounts of fun with my child while they were still alive. After all, the govt. sure isn't going to pay for the surgery and all the stuff afterwards from caring for a blind paralized child that needs chemo.

SecretMethod70 · 05-08-2003, 06:34 AM

Definitely with the parents on this one. What's the point in a surgery that will probbly kill her anyway, and if it doesn't it will leave her blind and paralyzed? Not much different than death.

rockogre · 05-08-2003, 06:50 AM

I'm with you. What quality of life can the child expect?

Will it be a good life or a string of torturous, painful, terrorizing operations and procedures all in the name of the welfare of the child.

How much of this will the child realize at her age other than the pain and the fear?

Perhaps a short but full life would be the better choice.

I suppose you have opened a Pandoras box of ethical and moral questions but it should be interesting.

blkdmnd · 05-08-2003, 06:57 AM

70 - 80 percent chance she'll die anyway? Who in the right mind would require this type of surgery? State child protective services, if that's who is making this call, should be ashamed of themselves.

What's worse, is now the parents are having to spend time and money in court to fight this shit.

Too much government.....

txd · 05-08-2003, 06:57 AM

I would have to side with the parents, with such a low chance of survival.

Bob Biter · 05-08-2003, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by suviko
Bob:

Can you find me a study of herbal remedy effectiveness in brain tumor cases? If you do that, I will go through univ's library to find data on brain tumor surgeries, and we can compare.

Sure thing. Here's one:

http://www.cpmc.org/professionals/re...erbs_2001.html

Also, here are two others that relate more towards a middle-ground between invasive and natural therapies. It seems I've been too hasty when saying one couldn't use both orthodox AND alternative approaches.

http://www.braintumor.org/pservices/...2/rosstext.pdf

http://www.4uherb.com/cancer/brain/treat.htm

However, since the article doesn't fully detail the specifics of the girl's situation, I have no idea of knowing if combining treatments would even be possible (has the state or parents even considered this approach?). If they are not, then I stand by my opinion that the parents should have sole responsibility of their child's well-being.

suviko · 05-08-2003, 08:16 AM

Liquor Dealer · 05-08-2003, 08:43 AM

I doubt that the state would take the quality of life issue into consideration. They are probably locked in a damned if you do damned if you don't position. Nearly all states have laws that allow the state to force parents to get medical help for children. I am in no way supporting the state in this particular incident but there are reasons for such laws. Quite often a child is allowed to die from something that should never have been life threatening had the child received medical attention. Usually someones fucked up idea of religion is the basis for their decision. No one ever accused those who interpret laws of having any common sense. Common sense would eliminate 98% of the idiocracy like this that goes on in our country.

hrdwareguy · 05-08-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Common sense would eliminate 98% of the idiocracy like this that goes on in our country.

Common sense in legislation??? But that would be to easy, and way to complicated. Legislation is one of those things where they try to cover everything in a blanket statement and don't worry about all the "special" cases.

Atropos4 · 05-08-2003, 03:52 PM

Living close to Grand Rapids, I'm surprised I haven't heard this.

I agree with the parents...
My cousin is going through a similar situation but she's still holding on....Her little boy was born with a condition that I think is called MINX. He wasn't supposed to live past 6 months. He'll be 2 years in November. Right now he's in the hospital and the outlook isn't good. I understand her holding on to hope like she is but I don't think I could do it.. Another sad thing is they have another little boy (not even a year older) that's basically living with his grandmother so that his mom can stay at the hospital 24/7 with the baby..She has been staying with the baby less and less though....My guess is to wean herself, in a way, off of him....(does that make sense?)

Lebell · 05-08-2003, 10:21 PM

Eighty percent chance of death or serious disability??????

I would tell the government to Fuck Off while I stayed in Canada with my baby.

KillerYoda · 05-09-2003, 05:30 AM

Francis Farmer had a kid?

05-07-2003, 10:33 AM	#1 (permalink)
Shokan Addict Location: Canada	Michigan to force brain surgery on toddler Does the state have the right? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news...66.htm&sc=1110 Michigan May Compel Surgery for Toddler By JAMES PRICHARD GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) - Surgeons say 2-year-old Noshin Hoque will probably die within a year or two unless the tumor growing deep in her brain is removed. But the operation itself will probably kill her or leave her blind or paralyzed. Given those odds, the little girl's parents, Jalaz and Shaheda Hoque, decided not to let doctors operate, and instead started taking her to a Montreal homeopath for herbal and nutritional treatments in hopes of curing her. But now prosecutors have taken the Hoques to court to force them to go ahead with the surgery in a case that revisits the question of who should decide what is best for the child when it comes to lifesaving medical treatment. ``There's no other outcome but death, without surgery,'' said David Gorcyca, prosecutor in suburban Detroit's Oakland County. ``I think if I'm a parent given a 30 percent fighting chance of survival, I'm taking that shot every time.'' On Friday, Circuit Judge Martha Anderson ordered the parents to allow a state social worker to see Noshin and gauge her condition, after the Hoques turned away the last one who came to their home. The couple were also ordered to provide prosecutors with complete records of their daughter's treatments. A hearing was set for May 12, when the judge will receive the results of a court-ordered brain scan on Noshin to determine the effectiveness of the homeopathic treatment. The walnut-size cancerous tumor lies against several important arteries and affects Noshin's speech, vision and gait. But the location of the mass could make surgery risky. Two pediatric neurosurgeons told the couple that there was a 70 percent to 80 percent chance that their daughter would emerge either dead or with severe complications. If Noshin survived the initial surgery, she would then have to undergo chemotherapy and follow-up operations to have any chance at living, said the couple's lawyer, Charles Cooper. The couple, an electrician and his homemaker wife, are from Bangladesh, where homeopathy is more widely accepted. The Hoques (pronounced HOKE) fear surgery would kill Noshin or leave her in a vegetative state, Cooper said. ``They didn't want her to be going into the hospital and having the top of her head removed and then all of these different surgeries and having her go through all of this,'' Cooper said. Cooper said Noshin is doing much better now that she is receiving alternative medicine; her left eye does not roam anymore, and her left arm is stronger than it has been for a while. Noshin's pediatrician at Children's Hospital of Michigan in Detroit contacted the state after her parents, who live in Royal Oak, stopped bringing her to appointments. Prosecutors filed an emergency petition to intervene. Such disputes occur from time to time around the country, and judges have generally ruled that parents cannot withhold lifesaving medical care from a seriously ill child. Parents often cite religious beliefs when rejecting medical treatment for their ill children. Christian Scientists believe in prayer instead of conventional medicine, while Jehovah's Witnesses oppose blood transfusions. But that is not the case with the Hoques. Lawrence Schneiderman, a doctor of internal medicine and a medical ethicist who teaches at the University of California at San Diego, said the Hoques' situation is also different because surgery in this case is so risky. ``The clinical condition of the child is so serious that quality-of-life considerations should take precedence over a prolongation of life. Therefore, the parents have a right to decide what they think is in the best interest of their child,'' he said. But Schneiderman warned that any suggestion that homeopathic treatment can cure or ease cancer is quackery. He suggested that the Hoques instead concentrate on making their daughter as comfortable as possible. ``There are nicer, easier, better things you can do for her than take her up to Canada for this foolishness,'' he said.

05-07-2003, 12:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Skettios Condition: Stable and Improving Location: Finger on the little red button.	But Bob, the kid is gonna die anyway. If they let the kid die, it's negligence, and they should go to jail, just like the crazies that think you can pray to heal injuries. studkickass, we've gone so far past parents having any kind of say in anything in this country. If that's the opinion of the nation, they should have said something 30 years ago, when the Child Protective services was formed. Ask yourselves what the best interest of the child is. Isn't that our first priority? __________________ Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. Frederich Nietzsche

05-07-2003, 03:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i morally agree w/ the state of michigan, but i think the parents have the ultimate decision. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-07-2003, 06:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	If the prognosis was better than 50%, I would agree with them forcing the surgery, although they likely wouldn't need to. Either way, odds are the child is going to die. I would probably go with the surgery, but you don't really know untill its happening to you. Alls I know for sure is , if its my child, I believe I have not only the right, but the responsibility to decide what is in their best interest, not the state. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

05-07-2003, 09:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
darksparkles Insane Location: Seattle	agreeing completely with bob. and herbal remedies have worked in the past. there's a different approach for everyone. has surgery completely eliminated cancer in everyone? no. while i do agree it might be smart in this case to go with the surgery, however, it's not right to force it, especially since the parents are trying some method. __________________ "I could be the walrus ... I'd still have to bum rides off people." -Ferris Bueller.

05-07-2003, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
studkickass Upright Location: Los Angeles	it is the parents decision. thats how I feel.

05-08-2003, 02:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
suviko Banned	Can parents also chose to beat their kid to death? I think the state should make an intervention when parents are risking their child's life. Surgery hasn't complitely eliminated cancer in 100% cases, but it is BY FAR better option than to chew a few funny leaves and cross your fingers. This "some method" could be even magnetic fields, color therapy or any other "alternative remedy", I don't give a dhingy, they can do that AND have the surgery. Why is it one or the other?

05-08-2003, 06:24 AM	#11 (permalink)
suviko Banned	- Last edited by suviko; 05-29-2004 at 11:29 PM..

05-08-2003, 06:31 AM	#12 (permalink)
hrdwareguy "Officer, I was in fear for my life" Location: Oklahoma City	Death or Death......make your choice Personally if it were my child, I think I would tell the government to go to hell and start having massive amounts of fun with my child while they were still alive. After all, the govt. sure isn't going to pay for the surgery and all the stuff afterwards from caring for a blind paralized child that needs chemo. __________________ Gun Control is hitting what you aim at Aim for the TFP, Donate Today Last edited by hrdwareguy; 05-08-2003 at 07:25 AM..

05-08-2003, 06:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Definitely with the parents on this one. What's the point in a surgery that will probbly kill her anyway, and if it doesn't it will leave her blind and paralyzed? Not much different than death. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

05-08-2003, 06:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	I'm with you. What quality of life can the child expect? Will it be a good life or a string of torturous, painful, terrorizing operations and procedures all in the name of the welfare of the child. How much of this will the child realize at her age other than the pain and the fear? Perhaps a short but full life would be the better choice. I suppose you have opened a Pandoras box of ethical and moral questions but it should be interesting. __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

05-08-2003, 06:57 AM	#15 (permalink)
blkdmnd Addict	70 - 80 percent chance she'll die anyway? Who in the right mind would require this type of surgery? State child protective services, if that's who is making this call, should be ashamed of themselves. What's worse, is now the parents are having to spend time and money in court to fight this shit. Too much government..... __________________ I blow my nose at you. Now go away before I taunt you a second time.

05-08-2003, 06:57 AM	#16 (permalink)
txd Addict	I would have to side with the parents, with such a low chance of survival.

05-08-2003, 08:16 AM	#18 (permalink)
suviko Banned	- Last edited by suviko; 05-29-2004 at 11:33 PM..

05-08-2003, 08:43 AM	#19 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	I doubt that the state would take the quality of life issue into consideration. They are probably locked in a damned if you do damned if you don't position. Nearly all states have laws that allow the state to force parents to get medical help for children. I am in no way supporting the state in this particular incident but there are reasons for such laws. Quite often a child is allowed to die from something that should never have been life threatening had the child received medical attention. Usually someones fucked up idea of religion is the basis for their decision. No one ever accused those who interpret laws of having any common sense. Common sense would eliminate 98% of the idiocracy like this that goes on in our country. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-08-2003, 03:52 PM	#21 (permalink)
Atropos4 Think about it Location: North Carolina	Living close to Grand Rapids, I'm surprised I haven't heard this. I agree with the parents... My cousin is going through a similar situation but she's still holding on....Her little boy was born with a condition that I think is called MINX. He wasn't supposed to live past 6 months. He'll be 2 years in November. Right now he's in the hospital and the outlook isn't good. I understand her holding on to hope like she is but I don't think I could do it.. Another sad thing is they have another little boy (not even a year older) that's basically living with his grandmother so that his mom can stay at the hospital 24/7 with the baby..She has been staying with the baby less and less though....My guess is to wean herself, in a way, off of him....(does that make sense?) __________________ Minds are like parachutes. They work better open. "If I were Hermione, I would have licked his pantleg."

05-08-2003, 10:21 PM	#22 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Eighty percent chance of death or serious disability?????? I would tell the government to Fuck Off while I stayed in Canada with my baby. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-09-2003, 05:30 AM	#23 (permalink)
KillerYoda The Original Emo Gangsta Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository	Francis Farmer had a kid? __________________ "So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."