popo

Sorry, Nextel.

After Yassin was killed, people said that all it did is bring to power a more militant Hamas leader. Well.... no more.

Rantissi is dead.

Now, who is nect in line with Hamas? If you declare that you will kill my citizens until I no longer exist, watch your back.

Oops. Sorry Lebell.

Lebell

Please post the stories whenever possible, not just links.

Thanks!

(edit: no worries)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top Hamas Leader Rantissi Killed in Israeli Raid
21 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - An Israeli helicopter missile strike on a car in Gaza City killed top Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi on Saturday.


Witnesses said two of Rantissi's bodyguards were also killed in the attack in which two missiles were fired.

Medics said Rantissi, 56, Hamas's leader in the Palestinian militant group's Gaza Strip (news - web sites) stronghold, had been rushed to a Gaza City hospital in critical condition after the attack. Sources said he had been wounded in the head with shrapnel.


Hundreds of Hamas members and supporters flooded to the hospital after news of the Israeli raid.


In chaotic scenes, a crowd of Palestinians swarmed around the wreckage of the white car, pulling out what appeared to be fragments of clothing.


Hamas, which has been behind scores of suicide attacks against Israel in a 3 1/2-year old Palestinian uprising and has pledged to destroy the Jewish state, issued an immediate vow of revenge.


"Israel will regret this. Revenge is coming," senior Hamas leader Ismail Haniya told reporters at the hospital.


"This blood will not be wasted. It is our fate in Hamas and it is our fate as Palestinians to die as martyrs. The battle will not weaken our determination or break our will," he said.


Rantissi, a co-founder of Hamas, had become one of its two main leaders since Israel's killing of Hamas spiritual head Ahmed Yassin in Gaza on March 22.


SUICIDE BOMBING


The air strike occurred hours after an Israeli border policeman was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber at the main Erez crossing on the Israeli-Gaza border.


The killing of Rantissi occurred against the backdrop of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) winning U.S. backing for a unilateral Gaza pullout plan.


Palestinian anger has mounted over President Bush (news - web sites)'s related decisions this week to allow the Jewish state to keep some parts of the West Bank and reject any right of return for Palestinian refugees to what is now Israel.


"I completely condemn this Israeli crime of cold blooded killing in front of the whole world, while America gives it bits of our land and our refugees' rights," said a senior member of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s Palestinian Authority (news - web sites).


"The mercy of God upon Rantissi... Israel commits crimes and is rewarded by the American president. When it commits state terrorism, it gets promises," cabinet minister Nabil Shaath told Arabic television station Al Jazeera.


The Arab world joined in the condemnation. "It is state terrorism and this is clear proof that Israel cannot live in a climate of stability," said Hossam Zaki, official spokesman for the Arab League in Cairo.


No immediate comment was available from Israel on Rantissi's killing.





Israel has been vowing to kill leaders of Hamas because of its attacks against the Jewish state.

It tried to kill Rantissi, public face of a Palestinian militant group that normally stays in the shadows, last June.

On that occasion he and his teenage son were wounded in an Israeli helicopter missile strike on his car, also in Gaza City.

Rantissi had refused to go into hiding like many of his comrades on Israel's wanted list since Hamas launched a suicide bombing campaign to spearhead the Palestinian uprising.

He had long depicted himself as a Hamas politician with no links to the military wing.

But Israel had refused to accept the distinction, accusing him of being a top decision-maker on attacks and of using his media role to incite violence.

With Rantissi filling the role of Hamas spokesman, camera crews from around the world had trooped to his modestly furnished living room to hear him issue vows of revenge, often in calm, even tones, for Israel's killing of militants.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

Here are the passages that particularly struck me:

Mmmkay.

You've already vowed to destroy Isreal. So isn't the "immediate vow of revenge" kind of wasted?

Or is it just the cherry on top of the destruction Banana Split?


Your "fate"?

It seems that if you stopped killing Jews, they would stop killing you.

Doesn't sound like "fate" to me.

I guess the unknown policeman didn't deserve similiar consideration. Perhaps his killing wasn't as "cold blooded"?

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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popo

That's the thing. The argument is that it only makes groups like Hamas madder. Ok.... and? The already vow to destroy Israel completely. Now, what? "Really completely"?

The fact is according to Btselem stats, the number of successful attacks has gone down considerably since Israel began targetting groups like Hamas.

nanofever

My thoughts on the Isreal/Palestine thing is they are both acting like children and both are equally in the wrong. Isreal is taking land with settlements, denying palestinian's a country and using its military like a bully. Palestine has the whole suicide bombing thing going against it. Both groups are equally wrong and need to spend five minuntes with their noses in the metaphoric corner.

Edit: I typed the above statement and then read the article, the article exactly fits with my statement. I'm not quite sure if this is funny or tragic.

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

popo

Before suicide bombings there was an Israel and Palestine, at least in theory. Israel accepted. Arabs rejected.

Israel offered the land back in 1967. Arabs said no. Israel offered the land back in 2000 at Taba. Arafat accepted it. 18 months later.

Four Fingers

I don't think there are evils and goods in this world. Each side follows what it sees as the best action-plan, and it does so as perfectly as it can. Truth is, if you belonged to one of these sides, you would act exactly as they are acting.

The only thing that matters for you, as an observer, is what sort of action will bring the middle-east closer to your own goals. If you want peace, then there is no doubt that supporting the democratic county would be best for you. A simple recounting of history is all that is required to see that every single armed conflict in the history of mankind involved at least one non-democratic entity.

However, not all of us want peace. Some seek justice, and for them, it would be a bit harder to support one of the sides.

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"Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

Lebell

I would not murder children for ANY reason.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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FoolThemAll

I can't claim this, but I thought it was pretty funny. A poster from another board formulated it.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

SLM3

When you say they offered the land back, what land are you referring to? The 97% they had before the creation of Israel?


SLM3

Lebell

Well, this makes me ask the question:

SLM3,

Do you then a) believe Israel is illegitimate as a nation and if so b) are the Palestinians justified in trying to destroy it?

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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popo

If you call for Israel's destruction don't be shocked if Israel doesn't take it sitting down.

SLM3

No. And No. It bothers me how much misinformation is being spread here. If you want to look at the major deals Israel has offered in terms of land, they're a joke. Cantons of land sorrounded on all sides by Israel and seperated from each other. But, if you were to go strictly by what is said here, you'd think Israel has been so generous as to offer everything back to the Palestinians time and time again.

Taba was an informal meeting. Proposals were made, but nothing official. There is a good record provided by the EU observer. Israel broke off the meetings presumably because of the upcoming elections.

I don't support the destruction of Israel. That's silly. But when I hear people call for its destruction, 9 times out of 10 it isn't because they simply hate Jews. It's because for many hundreds of years Jews and Palestinians lived side by side in Palestine. That is what the people have always wanted. That's the way it always was. Why should they be subjugated because they're not Jewish?

Palestinians are justified in resisting occupation. I don't think suicide bombings are the right way, but I don't pretend to understand their suffering either. I've been to Palestinian refugee camps and I've seen it first hand. Only then did I understand the hopelessness and desperation these people face every day.

popo

Taba:



Where are the so-called cantons?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...741842,00.html

Arafat approves Taba plan too late

Ewen MacAskill, diplomatic editor
Saturday June 22, 2002
The Guardian

The Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, yesterday belatedly accepted a Middle East peace plan put forward 18 months ago by the then US president, Bill Clinton.
But the Israeli government said the offer, which was discussed by Israeli and Palestinian negotiators at Taba in Egypt in January last year, was no longer on the table.

The Israelis had claimed the Taba package was generous and that Mr Arafat had been foolish not to grab it. Mr Arafat had repeatedly insisted that it was far from generous.

..."

smooth

I'm not going to get too wrapped into this debate.

It's beyond me why Israel didn't let out a collective breath of relief once something was about to be accomplished--instead, they rebuffed the acceptance of their own terms because it wasn't when they wanted it.

"remember that deal you offered us last year? let's do it"

"fuck no, should've taken it back then"

just doesn't seem very productive to me

popo

Good question. I think it has something to do with 1) Israeli public losing faith in counting on Arafat to uphold his side of the deal and 2) Sharon never having that faith, as he was an opponent to the Taba offer.

SLM3

I was referring to the Oslo agreements. Taba was unofficial and quickly tucked away by the Israelis. Beyond its symbolic value, it's useless. Why focus on talks that had no binding on an Israeli government, especially one that was about to be formed around a leader who was explicitly against Taba to begin with?


PBS

Two weeks later Barak was out of office, Sharon was in, and Taba was dead.


SLM3

OFKU0

Tell me to piss off and I will shrug, but I think a more balanced approach in your analysis would further the discussion rather than the decidedly biased tone you have chosen to undertake.

We all have strong opinion's as I'm sure you do to. But you moderate. As I understand, Super Moderate. You moderate.

What happens when the moderator takes sides?

You tell me.

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Lebell

Thank you for the clarification.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

Ahhhh,

You are under the misapprehension that because I moderate, I can't have an opinion.

That is not correct.

I am as free to have an opinion on TFP (and have the opinion attacked) as you are.

And biased tone?

Any more biased than SLM3, Smooth's, Kadath's or say, your's?

No, no, no and no.

The fact is, I've studied this issue for more than a few years and I've decided that while the Israeli's have been foolish in some of their policies, the Arabs carry the majority of the blame for the situation.

And so far in the year and a half I have been on TFP, no one has given me any new arguments to show me why my opinion is wrong.

So as long as we both discuss things within the boundries of the forum rules, feel free to try to convince me why I'm wrong.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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analog

Hmm. Well, there are at least two wrong things happening here.

First- being a moderator can take on many differnt meanings. Moderators can either mediate content, or the people who are delivering it. In this case, in this forum, it is not to mean that we, as Moderators, Super Moderators, or Administrators, are in any way impartial, unbiased, or keep our opinions to ourselves. It means that we, in our capacities, are here to make sure that YOU ALL mind your manners- and our rules of discussion. To that point, I will add that we ourselves take part in these discussions and we, as moderators, etc., are also held to the same set of rules.

One of the basic principles of the TFP is the free exchange of thoughts and ideas, and the moderators are here to be sure that principle is upheld and respected, while participating.

Second- if anyone has a problem with a moderator's actions, do not have it out in a thread. This is inappropriate and rude. PM another moderator, or super moderator, or Admin- or Halx, if you're that convinced the system is against you- as a means of rectifying what you believe is wrong.

Lebell

Help help, I'm being oppressed!

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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seretogis

These accusations towards moderators are getting ridiculous. I've seriously disagreed with several moderators on here and I can't recall ever suggesting that because they are a moderator they do not deserve to have an opinion.

If your argument has become so weak that you seek to try to disqualify the other person, you have lost.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

popo

What do you mean that it was non-binding and informal? They were official govt talks with an official Israeli propsal that Arafat initially called embarassing. If it was good enough for him to change his mind after pondering it for 18 months then he deserves the scorn gets. He could have turned the Israeli election into a referendum on ending the conflict.

He chose not to and turned down a resloution with no cantons and with half of Jerusalem as a new capital, something that not even 1948 Palestine was going to have.

tecoyah

Couldn't agree more. As far as I can tell, we had a Mod join the discussion and state an opinion, that was it. I almost feel guilty for helping to continue this pointless interuption of a good thread with statement that should not be needed. but it needs to be said.

A moderator is a member of this community just as anyone else. They add to the flavor of the discussions, and form opinions. Why else would they have come here in the first place, it is likely they have simply proven themselves as capable of helping to keep this place alive, and have therefor been given certain responsibilities.

That does not mean they cannot enjoy TFP, just like the rest of us.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

seretogis

A lighter view of a serious fact:



Hamas: Kill one leader, and another one pops up to take its place.

Let's hope Hamas doesn't know how to refill the dispenser once the candy runs out.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

OFKU0

My apologies to Lebell. My thoughts didn't mirror exactly my written opinion.

I enjoy reading your opinion's as you have every right to one. I am just more used to people like me and others being sarcastic and flippant at times, not so much the mods.

No big deal.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Glad-I-Ate-Her

Let me get this straight, before Rantissi was killed, a Hamas suicide bomber killed a soldier and injured several others at a checkpoint. If Rantissi, authorized this, is he not a target for death also? Israel stated that this his assassination was planned several weeks in advance. In fact, they tried to take him out I believe it was in June 03.

One thing that I'm not totally clear is when the Palestinians say "occupation." My history of this conflict maybe not up to par but wasn't it in 1948 the state of Israel was formed by the UN? The lands were origianlly controlled by the English(?). Why didn't the UN make two states at that time? Also, the West Bank and part of Jerusalem was controlled by the Jordanians. And Gaza belonged to Egypt. Didn't those countries lose that land in a war started by them? I believe Syria lost some land in that conflict also. If Jordan, Egypt and Syria reall cared about the Palestinians, why didn't they instead of attacking Israel voluntarily give up those lands that they lost to them?

Its seems that the land that was lost during an unprovoked war is what they want back.

This is just a no win situation. Arafat can't control Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. even if he wanted to. If he did, then he would be killed. In the negotiations, he agreed to curtail the violence but has done nothing about it. All the meanwhile, Israel has is not supposed to protect itself.

The level of bombings, imho, has dropped because of the Israel killings the leaders of the opposition and also in building of the security barriers.

This situation is like if a radical anti-Canadian group lives in the US. They send waves of suicide bombers to blow up random people in Canada. And the US does nothing to prevent it, then Canada has the right to protect its citizens.

You could say that both Hamas leaders that were killed are Israel's bin Laden and his second in command.


Glad

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I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

Mojo_PeiPei

He has always been a priority, I do believe he was one of the founding members of Hamas.

Quote:

One thing that I'm not totally clear is when the Palestinians say "occupation." My history of this conflict maybe not up to par but wasn't it in 1948 the state of Israel was formed by the UN? The lands were origianlly controlled by the English(?). Why didn't the UN make two states at that time? Also, the West Bank and part of Jerusalem was controlled by the Jordanians. And Gaza belonged to Egypt. Didn't those countries lose that land in a war started by them? I believe Syria lost some land in that conflict also. If Jordan, Egypt and Syria reall cared about the Palestinians, why didn't they instead of attacking Israel voluntarily give up those lands that they lost to them?

The six day war was actually "started by Israel, one could call it a pre-emptive strike of sorts. Leading up to the war Egypt/Syria/Jordan were trying to provoke a fight, as a result Israel was in a constant red alert stage for several months. You raise good questions about the intentions and actions of the Arab countries though, it seems that they have never acted with the Palestinians in mind.

As a side question, Glad raises a good point. WHat happened to the Palestinian state? If I remember the UN did partition the land? Did the war of Independence take it out of the picture?

Quote:

This is just a no win situation. Arafat can't control Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. even if he wanted to. If he did, then he would be killed. In the negotiations, he agreed to curtail the violence but has done nothing about it. All the meanwhile, Israel has is not supposed to protect itself.

Bottom line Arafat is an asshat. He is responsible for inciting and perpetuating violence for many many years, also I do believe that Al Aqsa is affiliated with the PA. I wish Israel would ice Arafat, I mean he serves no purpose he exerts no control of the Palestinians and Israel/America won't even deal with him. However as pointed out he is technically the "leader", Sharon should've ended him back in Lebanon.

Quote:

The level of bombings, imho, has dropped because of the Israel killings the leaders of the opposition and also in building of the security barriers. This situation is like if a radical anti-Canadian group lives in the US. They send waves of suicide bombers to blow up random people in Canada. And the US does nothing to prevent it, then Canada has the right to protect its citizens. You could say that both Hamas leaders that were killed are Israel's bin Laden and his second in command. Glad

Very good summary, thats why the situation is very upsetting/confusing. If America were to kill OBL the world would rejoice, or at the very least no one would care except for some nut jub muslims. But for some reason when Israel kills known terrorists and murderers its a big deal. Baffling.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

popo

I have a quibble with this. Israel may have fired the first shot but they did not start the 1967 war.

Like you say, Egypt was threatening to push the Jews into the sea and preparing for what Nasser called the ultimate battle.

He also demanded that UN troops (UNEF) leave their Suez canal positions (they did) and amassed troops in their place. On top of this, Egypt also illegally blocked Israel's access to the Straits of Tiran, Israel's only point of access to oil. By doing this, Nasser went against the UN's Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone and provided casus belli.

Israel fired the first shot but Egypt started the war.

Dragonlich

Wasn't Jordan supposed to be the "Palestinian state"?

Kadath

Yo, what the fuck is that about? I wasn't even here! Just cuz I razz you about your clear and obvious bias toward the right-leaning lunatics of the board, cuz I point out a few imbalances in that iron fist, I get bitchslapped? F you!

I want to be clear -- I kid because I love.

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it's quiet in here

Lebell

LOLOLOL!

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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seretogis

Lebell impregnated me with the truth, and I gave birth to a Libertarian.

I sleep now.

__________________
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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Lebell

EWWW!!

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Glad-I-Ate-Her

Oh nooo!! Not that, anything but that!! j/k

Glad

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Sun Tzu

I appologize ahead for grammatical errors and mizspellincs;

I had to take images out because my dpi was off at 300 making them huge and displacing the margins resulting in an unaccetable annoyance. Please excuse this disrupting the thread with my thoughs via offthrowing the page wasnt my intention. Once I get them corrected I may put them back up depending if the conversation is still going as these tend to die off fast.

I’ve entered this discussion a little late, but with variances in the specific subject that opens this topic every time the conversation schematics are relatively the same. Coming in late also left a high number of comments I’d like to respond to, but again each response only leads to the same foundation so I’ll just state my opinion.

As a quick background note; my views are my interpretations of history, current events, and personal experience. I state interpretation of history because past everything; its documented stories past down by other individuals that were there. All a person has is the faith in the creditability of the sources from which generalized belief comes from. I make a point of this because in the past 2 years of my membership here at TFP I’ve read a lot of “history lessons”. Some invited; others selected excerpts googleated in a selective pasted format presented in “this is it” fashion as if attending a college level Holy Land history course. It most cases there’s nothing wrong with that. I use google just like everyone else; it’s one of the great things about the technology of today- all of us can converge together here and give opinions, data, and other tools for learning and growing. The disturbing aspect I came to realize after debating in this area is history is being taught differently; being interpreted differently, and contributing to some of what the world is seeing today.

The outcome in relation to interaction on TFP led to multiple frustrating talks with certain members. One in particular (who hasn’t been around in a long while) began putting out historical facts; as he interpreted them. Specifically a breakdown of the population in percentage of ethnic groups in what was known as Palestine in 1922 and similar years. I firmly disagreed with the numbers. This led to an inquiry of his sources; which preceded research into his sources’ sources- as far down the chain as possible. It turns that most of the information was from sources that had Zionist influence at some capacity. I may disagree with the philosophy of Zionism, but I will make every attempt I can reasonably muster to listen to an opposing view; provided there’s no distortion of the facts. I was comparing what he was stating to a source I consider as close to being valid as possible; the census gathered documented by the British during the mandate period. In one fair swoop this other member proceeded to deny the previous existence of hundreds of towns and thousands of individuals. It reminded me of people that attempt to promote the belief that the Holocaust is a lie. That’s his reality; his interpretation of history. I’ve never truly understood how many versions there are of the historical, cultural evolution of the Holy Land until engaging in TFP discussions.

Current events create debates from opposing perspectives. These perspectives are drawn from what has been deemed accurate by cultures, groups, and individuals. History and sources of daily news are what most have to gather the thoughts of what their perception is: both are unfortunately probably going to be funded with agendas in mind. Through it the only guide a person has is a view crafted by personal education, interpretation guided by critical thinking, and what their heart tells them. If there wasn’t differences of opinion there wouldn’t be debates; or what’s actually happening for that matter.

Personal experience is a strong element a person can use to base their thinking and beliefs on. Being at a place. Seeing it. Hearing it. Experiencing it. Living it. I haven’t personally lived it; because in the 36 times I’ve been to Israel they were prior to the 2 infitada occurring. Including Egypt/Sinai I’ve been to most regions of the area. I was lucky enough to accompany and assist an archeologist: Ron Wyatt (for any interested- http://www.wyattmuseum.com/ ) those visits were educational on many levels. Some aspects continue to lead to frustration I have with spirituality and science, and others changed a prejudice I had for as long as I can remember- a dislike for Arabs. It’s consisted of things I had been taught growing up, and a general lack of desire to investigate further than what I heard from the general consensus of my friends. This was further enhanced during my years of active duty military service. Looking back every Palestinian I met was polite and very kind. Surprising; 75% of the ones I met were Christians. Most of the Jews I met were also kind; it was just a little weird for me to see cute 21 year old good looking females at the mall with M16s strapped around their back- as Israeli citizens are allowed to do. The only rude demeanor came from those praying at the wailing wall; which is understandable- having someone watch you doing spiritual practice could be annoying especially when its time to walk backwards away from the site. It wasn’t until years later that my views would change drastically.

Here’s the reality and the relentless frustrations I’ve come to understand: The only true nature and deciding tone of righteousness of that patch of Earth is conquest. It’s changed hands, empires, and ruling entities many times. If one would argue about who was first; then perhaps anyone who descends from Canaanites should have first pick. No; the stronger sword decides who the righteous are; as it has always been anywhere in the history of the human race. The difference from now to a thousand years prior is the hopeful thought humanity has progressed in more than just technology. The UN in all of its flaws seems to be the only hopeful stage that has the potential to bring some kind of order and justice to a world that seems bent on destroying itself. (I’m not referring to a NWO). Recent history is important to Americans, because through Manifest Destiny a world has been created that most wouldn’t give up without a fight; even if it meant their own death.

In my interpretation of the history of this area: it’s fairly recent that the area now known as Israel was titled Palestine. This was located laterally to an area known as TransJordan. I've seen attempts to dispel who was living where and when; according to a census conducted of Palestine prior to the Zionist immigration: 78% were Arab Muslims, 9.6% were Arab Christians, and 11% were Jewish.

Heres a map of towns and villages some would rather be seen erased from history.



No it wasn’t a recognized country by the UN or America; infant entities within their own right; and yes it was mandated by an Empire that has had a lengthy history of successful conquest. Neither of which changes the fact that people were there. Towns that existed for hundreds of years; some direct evolutions from the Ottoman Empire. And in the direct disagreement with those of modern Zionist beliefs; Jews were a small minority. To any that dispute this fact I invite to research documentation from British records. If they appear to disfavor what the chosen interpretation is; then reading quotes from UN addresses of the founders of Israel may help spell it out more clearly. Ben Gurion and other regarded heroes tell the true nature of how Israel came to be. Their own words lay the foundation to what a person will either agree or disagree with. If anyone has the ability to approach something with a neutral mind even if only for a brief moment: read speeches and famous quotations given by the founding Zionists. Take the names out and and look past any cultural references (arabs or indigenous population as it was often stated) and take in what it is these individuals are actually saying.


Therein lies the personal paradox for myself. The closest analogy I can think of is the historical evolution of the United States. Is the manner in how the land was appropriated evil? I can say I’m happy to live where I do; but I would have had a problem watching Native Americans being dealt with in the manner they were. The present truth is the history wasn’t pretty, but the fact remains that I was born in the United States and that makes me an American. I have a right to live in peace in a place that is a home I was born of.

Though a small presence of Jews existed in Palestine; it was the European Zionist immigrants that founded and appropriated land they see as being their own by religious beliefs. I've seen this reality (or as I interpret it) verbally side-stepped, flowered, double –talked, and openly ignored by many I’ve conversed with. It doesn’t change the truth. However; as with any other place on Earth, the true manner of territorial debate was carried out with war and the Jews whether first or last, or for whatever reason were extremely successful at “kicking ass”. That is their true element of right of statehood. They fought a war and won their land. They were generous in giving territory seized beyond their desired goals back to Egypt (a substantial amount I might add- the Sinai Peninsula is huge) and through the hardships endured by war their right to exist was and is forever etched into humanity. The dark side of this falls on the indigenous population who’s mere existence many are denying. Call them what you choose Arab, Palestinian, Jordanian, Vulcan they were and are people just as much as the most recent populates are.

In the here and now a person born in Israel is born of the land. Regardless of the how’s and whys they are and forever will be Israeli. That fact alone translates that Israel as any other national culture has a right of existence. Within that right also the justification to defend those that would seek to destroy its existence. And here is the problem. Here is also the reason why America seems to be Israel’s only ally. A majority of the planet has a disfavorable view toward Israel. I think it’s a vital mistake to attribute that to anti-Semitism. In my view I see some would see some validation in thinking its about people hating them because of spiritual beliefs; it takes away accountability of clearly visible ACTIONS.

Although Ive provided a couple maps I want to put history aside because I see anyone who enters these discussions to a deep degree has done the historical homework. At this point they are going to accept what they currently believe as their perception of what’s happening.

My problem, bewilderment, confusion, or what ever one chooses to call it lies with the here and now. Namely within what the UN (the very entity that gave Israel the recognition it sought) set forth territories that are internationally recognized as being the sovereign areas of the indigenous population now known as the West Bank and Gaza strip. The areas in and of themselves are a SIGNIFICANT reduction from what they used to have. The refugees living in Jordan (the displaced thousands that only those that agree with what Israel is doing consider Jordanians or “Arab”) aside the Gaza strip and West Bank are the most densely populated areas on Earth. Towns that even some Israeli soldiers consider “Ghettos” where they are stacked onto top of each other in the worst kind of ways. That doesn’t have to be good news or bad news simply because it is the news. It’s what the rest of the world interprets and has granted them as being theirs. Israel doesn’t appear to see it that way.

I’ll put this in straight forward and simple terms to hopefully avoid any side-stepping, or double talk. I’ll comment on that further down. Here’s a recent West Bank map with a simplistic interpretation of what I see happening. Please understand that this situation started BEFORE the suicide bombings.

The purple lines represent check points- stations within the boundaries of what is legally theirs. The harassment faced daily by families and people of all ages at these stops is done in the name of prevention of terrorism; these actions began long before the second uprising. The circle around Jericho is the simple truth of what is in store for the Palestinians. Notice how the Palestinian controlled area has now become completely encircle by Israeli occupation. Occupation the Bush administration has just label as being justified. What happens to the people inside as settlers continue to annex land? Continue with the full protection of the IDF?

[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QgDRAjsUwq*QF9k7Cj9*EvXEeUkYUX5*!LGObFkwU5HwiRwztxcJLQnYSvPtWNi9ZGjm3Kg6MKI4iJwqmjidMuG4xPyETVx5MwgJPH8SfPs/westbank.jpg?dc=4675468829469476336[/IMG]

It would b e a different story if the IDF wasn’t in the territories. It would be a different story if settlers weren’t being allowed to populate in Palestinian areas. It would entirely different if the boundaries that are UN sanctioned (whether or not one agrees or not) were fully being observed, the were no resolutions being drawn on Israel with violation to human rights and aggression was being carried out by the Palestinians. I think the entire world see things differently. I've read comments stating it would be too much of a risk. For one thing that creates a difficult matter to establish a model of comparison as the areas internationally recognized as being Palestinian, have never been fully given to the Palestinians. Another is the generous offers references are commonly made too qualifiy for a second look: this one for example-
http://www.doublestandards.org/shockwave/barak_eng.swf

I don’t understand how one can not look at where the settlement situation is going and not recognize elements of genocide. Hence my reasoning for putting the simple pictures as to not offend or challenge anyone’s intelligence; but every time I address the issue; its avoided. To me when a cultures schools and universities are closed, populates harassed, land owners destroyed when they attempt to protect what’s theirs, males rounded up nightly and jailed without trial or investigation, and numerous other things I wont even mention paints a picture for me of a people with nothing to hope for and whose only inevitable future is that Jordan will take them in so they can join the others in refugee camps. The angrier Palestinians evolve into a mindset wanting all of Israel destroyed, but I’ve read and seen numerous Hamas militants that state the will put down their arms the moment Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza.

People getting killed from suicide bombs is a horrible thing. There’s two ways of seeing it one: its happening: kill them all or two: kill them- but perhaps take a single look to what would drive a person to do such a thing.

I read statements here and in the fashion of a question “ So blowing children up is justifiable” or “murdering innocent civilians in a discotech is alright” and similar statements. I’ve never read where a member stated that or felt that way. I would get the feeling occasionally that the author of such statements truly understood what the person was saying, but chose to take it to that place. That in turn would annoy me. I understand that the forum is sometimes a place where one has to accurate detail every point they make in careful context that statements can easily be temporarily manipulated. I’ll personally give no power to such tactics (if being used as such) as I humbly believe there is no one here that believes murder is a good thing.

Maybe someone can help me to understand how allowing the expansion of settlements is a justifiable thing and explain what should happen to the Palestinians when they will eventually collide. I long for some kind of comprehension that its OK.

Presently Im left with the impression that the Palestinians may or may not be getting F*$%^ or some degree smaller or larger; but the bottom line is if they are not smiling about what is occuring to their lives and the future of their culture as a whole; they're wrong. So with the dog and pony show of some settlements being disbanded in an almost "politically correct appeasment fashion" while the reality that West Bank settlements are expanding and annexing land daily the people who own the land should in all counts behind over and start smiling- becasue anything less will bring extreme consequences. I've heard the statement "They want to throw us into the ocean"; the real situation could truly fool me.


If a Palestinian land owner takes arms against a settler that annexes land via fencing in an area they shouldnt even be in the first place; are they a terrorist? (often referred to as "Palestinian gunmen")

I also want to mention that when I refer to Israel I don’t mean all Israeli’s; there are many that disagree with what’s happening.

The famous words survivors shouted “Never again” . . .

Never again . . .

I notice there is images once again up done in the form of political humor. I take no offense to them as I have done plenty myself (usually- proceding accusations that Im trolling) I just want to confirm that particular rule has been lifted so I dont break it.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

almostaugust

Sun Tzu, really enjoyed your post.

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'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'

tecoyah

I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into the above post. The explanations you give are informative, and amongst the best researched I have seen. Anyone who takes the time to read the entire thing will be enlightened and that is why we are here.
You have my thanks.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Lebell

Mmmm,

Not really.

The reason we made that rule was because people where just posting silly photoshops of Kerry and Bush that did nothing to make a conversation, but were only posted for the laugh.

Since I assume you are talking about the Hamas "PEZ" pic above, my take on it is that it makes a point about Hamas, namely that they crank out martyrs like PEZ candies.

To me that is a comment and not mindless cartoon.

But if you want, I'll kick around with some more mods for a consensus opinion.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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