murder is murder - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 04-09-2004, 03:12 PM

I hope very much not be censored by saying this, nor to be accused of trolling.

The killing of the US contractors/mercenaries in Fallujah was murder. It was not an act of self defence, it was a murder

What the American forces are now doing is murder, it is not retaliation or self defence, it is murder.

I read this passage in an American news agency site:

Quote:

In Fallujah, Marines halted their assault on Sunni insurgents to allow U.S.-picked Iraqi leaders — angry at the United States over the bloodshed from five days of heavy fighting — to hold talks with city leaders about how to reduce the violence.

Throughout the afternoon, fighting was reduced to sporadic gunfire. But when night fell, heavy explosions resumed as an AC-130 gunship strafed targets and soldiers and insurgents engaged in a mortar battle.

Iraq's top U.S. administrator, L. Paul Bremer, said the unilateral pause was also aimed at allowing humanitarian aid to enter the city and Fallujah residents to tend to their dead.

Many families, emerging from their homes for the first time in days, buried slain relatives in the city football stadium.

A stream of hundreds of cars carrying women, children and elderly headed out of the city after Marines announced they would be allowed to leave. Families pleaded to be allowed to take out men, and when Marines refused, some entire families turned back.

The heavy fighting in Fallujah — during which mosques have been damaged and buildings demolished — has made the city of 200,000 a symbol of resistance for some Iraqis and threatens to divide the Iraqi Governing Council and the U.S. administration that appointed it.

Marines agreed only grudgingly to a halt in fighting. After initially being ordered to cease all offensive operations, they quickly demanded and received permission to launch assaults to prevent attacks if needed.

"We said to them (the commanders): 'We are going to lose people if we don't go back on offensive ops.' So we got the word," Marine Maj. Pete Farnun told The Associated Press.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt underlined that talks between two Governing Council members and sheiks and clerics representing Fallujah representatives were not negotiations, suggesting the military would not be making concessions. U.S. officials were not participating in the talks, which began Friday.

Abdul-Karim Mahoud al-Mohammedawi, a Shiite on the Governing Council, announced he was suspending his council seat until "the bleeding stops in all Iraq." He also met Friday with al-Sadr, whom U.S. commanders have vowed to capture.

I feel so ashamed to be British, to be from a country that supports totally this action, when I read this.

I would ask, only that people know this is how I really fell, I am not trying to troll or incite anyone else, just to make my point, that I am deeply ashamed of the Iraqi occupation, that the taking of human life without just cause is murder, whether it is Iraqi's killing American's because they hate America, or American's killing Iraqi's because other Americans have died... murder is murder... every death suffered so I see and now must say is a crime before God.

To me the politics of this war are now invalid, it is no longer about WMD's (we found none), it is no longer about Hussain and his awfullness (he was awful, he is gone)... it is about power and occupation and the currency now seems to have become death.

When I read the above passage my blood ran cold. I seemed to see, that until their are radical changes the killing will never stop. I fear for myself also, the reprisals that will be visited upon my country (England) for this war will be terrible, they will be more murder.

Nad Adam · 04-09-2004, 04:06 PM

Well, such is life. Right now there is no bloodless alternative in Iraq. If the Americans stay or leave will only affect the amount and right now staying is the lesser of two evils.

Ustwo · 04-09-2004, 04:22 PM

I'm sure you will get over it.

I feel no shame over the US actions, and in general feel pride and I am greatful that we have men in this country willing to risk their lives in such a matter.

Radical Islam will not be thwarted with kind words and good feelings.

debaser · 04-09-2004, 04:28 PM

The Marines in Fallujah are not commiting murder, they are re-asserting military control over a city. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What we are doing there in the first place is another matter altogether...

djtestudo · 04-09-2004, 05:18 PM

If we were killing unarmed civilians, that is murder.

Since we are killing rebels who attacked our soldiers and would do the same thing to them as they did to those four people earlier this week if they had the chance, that is not murder.

Phaenx · 04-09-2004, 05:25 PM

As long as we're agreeing that murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another, what's unlawful about killing people who are shooting at you in a battlezone?

Did I miss something or did that article say something about soldiers killing unarmed women/children on purpose for no reason?

filtherton · 04-09-2004, 05:30 PM

Your forgetting, SF, that in war, murder is par for the course. That is why so many people in both of our nations abhor war. It turns humans back into the animals we otherwise pretend not to be.

I think most americans will never be able to relate to having two factions, neither of which you particularly care for, fighting on the streets of your city with little or no regard for innocent people. The thought sickens me.

One a side note, it sickens me even more that so many who were so hawkish going into this lack the courage and the conviction to take personal responsibilty and join up. I think it is extremely hypocritical to scream for a war you are unwilling to participate in in any meaningful way.

Anyways, both sides are doing what they think is the right thing to do, and therefore consider themselves morally superior to the other. Meanwhile, the civilians are caught in between.

tecoyah · 04-09-2004, 06:25 PM

Murder, Killing, casualties,collateral damage,rebels, soldiers,combatants,christians, muslims.

In the end it is all the same, they are dead. Perhaps we should all step back a moment and think about what we are actually debating , and sometimes being petty about. These are fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters to someone, and they are dying every day.

For What?

And is ANYTHING truly worth this kind of high price?

qtpye4u84 · 04-09-2004, 06:28 PM

I think that they are doing the best they can and I am not going to question what they do.
What about when they drag our americans dead bodies around for there pleasure?

HarmlessRabbit · 04-09-2004, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
As long as we're agreeing that murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another, what's unlawful about killing people who are shooting at you in a battlezone?

Did I miss something or did that article say something about soldiers killing unarmed women/children on purpose for no reason?

I'm with Phaenx and Filtherton, this isn't wholesale slaughter of civilians, this is collateral damager from war. Unfortunately, Fallujah is a hotbed of problems and I can understand the military operation there.

I do think there is some element of smackdown going on here for the desecration and murder of those four people, but for the most part this operation seems like it is under control.

War is state-sanctioned murder of the other side. It's ugly, but that's what it is.

I still don't see the end game in Iraq. As you said, the war isn't about WMD's or Saddam any more. I'm not sure what it *is* about. It doesn't seem to be about restoring freedom to the Iraqis anymore either.

reconmike · 04-09-2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
Murder, Killing, casualties,collateral damage,rebels, soldiers,combatants,christians, muslims.

In the end it is all the same, they are dead. Perhaps we should all step back a moment and think about what we are actually debating , and sometimes being petty about. These are fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters to someone, and they are dying every day.

For What?

And is ANYTHING truly worth this kind of high price?

How about freedom?

Would you pick up a rifle to defend yourself?

Or would you count on someone else to do it for you?

And SF, who wrote that piece? How about a link? Is that your own words?

Please post actual news sites that state "mosques" have been damaged by US troops.

Where were you when the million or so deaths before god were happening under Hussien?

That whole Anti-American twisted left piece of crap should be removed at once, it is flame bait big time and very untrue and tilted.

crewsor · 04-09-2004, 07:01 PM

More of the same from strange famous. I don't know why I even bother to look at these posts. Theres nothing I can say that won't be considered a flame so I'm out.

analog · 04-09-2004, 08:03 PM

Such is the price of war. When you are at war, people die.

There is no source information for the article, and this thread is a flamebait, as many have observed.

Locked.

04-09-2004, 04:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Well, such is life. Right now there is no bloodless alternative in Iraq. If the Americans stay or leave will only affect the amount and right now staying is the lesser of two evils. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-09-2004, 04:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I'm sure you will get over it. I feel no shame over the US actions, and in general feel pride and I am greatful that we have men in this country willing to risk their lives in such a matter. Radical Islam will not be thwarted with kind words and good feelings. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-09-2004, 04:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	The Marines in Fallujah are not commiting murder, they are re-asserting military control over a city. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What we are doing there in the first place is another matter altogether... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

04-09-2004, 05:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	If we were killing unarmed civilians, that is murder. Since we are killing rebels who attacked our soldiers and would do the same thing to them as they did to those four people earlier this week if they had the chance, that is not murder. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

04-09-2004, 05:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	As long as we're agreeing that murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another, what's unlawful about killing people who are shooting at you in a battlezone? Did I miss something or did that article say something about soldiers killing unarmed women/children on purpose for no reason? __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

04-09-2004, 05:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Your forgetting, SF, that in war, murder is par for the course. That is why so many people in both of our nations abhor war. It turns humans back into the animals we otherwise pretend not to be. I think most americans will never be able to relate to having two factions, neither of which you particularly care for, fighting on the streets of your city with little or no regard for innocent people. The thought sickens me. One a side note, it sickens me even more that so many who were so hawkish going into this lack the courage and the conviction to take personal responsibilty and join up. I think it is extremely hypocritical to scream for a war you are unwilling to participate in in any meaningful way. Anyways, both sides are doing what they think is the right thing to do, and therefore consider themselves morally superior to the other. Meanwhile, the civilians are caught in between.

04-09-2004, 06:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Murder, Killing, casualties,collateral damage,rebels, soldiers,combatants,christians, muslims. In the end it is all the same, they are dead. Perhaps we should all step back a moment and think about what we are actually debating , and sometimes being petty about. These are fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters to someone, and they are dying every day. For What? And is ANYTHING truly worth this kind of high price? __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-09-2004, 06:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
qtpye4u84 Flavor+noodles Location: oregon	I think that they are doing the best they can and I am not going to question what they do. What about when they drag our americans dead bodies around for there pleasure? __________________ The QTpie

04-09-2004, 07:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	More of the same from strange famous. I don't know why I even bother to look at these posts. Theres nothing I can say that won't be considered a flame so I'm out. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

04-09-2004, 08:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
analog Banned	Such is the price of war. When you are at war, people die. There is no source information for the article, and this thread is a flamebait, as many have observed. Locked.