Mojo_PeiPei

Alright, since everyone seems to be getting down on my way of doing things, how would you handle it Zeld? And don't give me some vague answer like "address the roots". Address what roots? How do you handle them? What do you do in the mean time when the war on terrorism is still in full swing? Do you cave? Do you do nothing? Do you stick your tale between your legs and pull out? Since the Hawkish way is so foolish, what is the better alternative?

Or if that is to universal, maybe within the context on this original post... What the hell is Israel to do?

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Zeld2.0

My cynical answer would be I don't give a shit let em screw each self up because the past is the past and its hard to stop a feud that goes back like that.

The other side is simple what NOT to do - and thats keep blowing each other up.

You piss off one side you bet they'll try and hit back.

Case in point: Assholes decide to beat your brother up. What do you do? Human tendency is to go and beat the crap out of them up, slash their tires, etc.

Keep going in circles much?

As for a solution... check back when humans change

Mojo_PeiPei

I would agree let them hash it out. But realisitcally speaking Israel can't do that. The government has a responsibility to protect its people.

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nanofever

You seem to be asking how to put out a forest fire which is raging out of control. I don't know the answer but I know pissing on the fire won't help. Isreal pissed on the fire and have only made things worse for themselves longterm, though they might have enjoyed pissing on the fire in the short-term.

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Zeld2.0

The government has a responsibility to protect its people - but what its doing is thinking its protecting its people when in truth it only fans the flames for more attacks in the future. Its a short term answer that hurts the long term situation.

Its sort of like that one suicide quote ("Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem") - but twisted around to say "The situation is a permanent problem with a temporary solution."

Not the best twisting of the quote but the point is, their very thought of 'protecting its citizens' happens to be leading to more of their citizens being killed, and the cycle continues.

Why think that the cycle will run itself out (unless everyone suddenly dies of course and all those associated with any emotional attachment do as well) when thats exactly what a cycle is - it keeps going. You cut the cycle to prevent it from going on and on and on and on...

Mojo_PeiPei

I hear what you guys are saying. The problem is with the Palestinians. It would be a different story if the Palestinians wanted peace, but they don't. Maybe the run of the mill Palestinian does, but groups like Hamas and Al Aqsa stated and continuing goal is not peace, its the total destruction and death of Israel. Arafat is a goon who exploits the situation, perpetuating the violence for his own personal gain as various threads have stated. Even if Israel were to cease all operation in Gaza and the West Bank, and relinquish all land back, I don't think the situation would be any better then it is now.

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popo

I see it in a completely opposite light. I think that in their view they made things worse for themselves in the short term (perhaps more suicide bomb attempts) but in the long term Hamas was dealt a serious blow. Their _leader_ is dead.

Hamas is an organization already dedicated to continuing suicide bombings until Israel is destroyed. They are not the PLO or other so-called moderates who claim to want to live side-by-side with Israel. Hamas' stated goal is destruction of Israel. Calling Yassin a moderate because he concentrates on the spiritual side of suicide bombing as opposed to the art of bomb-making is ridiculous.

Do you folks not think that the killing of Bin Laden will fuel Al-Qaeda towards revenge? Should the US let him walk in fear of that?

pan6467

If Bin Laden is caught he should stand trial before an international tribunal the same as the Nazis did at Nuremburg. Anything less than that would feed the oppositions cause and make him a martyr.

Will it happen? No, because the Bush family has to many ties to the Bin Laden family and if they came out the Bush's would be on trial with him.

Also, it won't happen because the World Court would also want to try a man named Kissinger and the US has not allowed that to happen yet and never will.

It truly is a mess and the only way to get anywhere close to peace is to start changing ideas on both sides and trying to work for a peaceful solution.

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Sun Tzu

The fanatical individuals on the Arab side that see the entire "Holy Land" as Palestine are exactly that and need to comprehend that Israel isnt going to go away. This takes a deeper truth as the generation the immigrated from Europe pass the torch on to those born into the country recognized as Israel. They by all rights are truly native to the land at that point.

As far as your question; IMO its very simple. Any settlement that is seen by the international community as being illegal needs to be dismantled now. Not 5 years, 5 months, or even weeks, but now.

Speaking only of the West Bank and Gaza strip and putting Camp David and the "B-offer" aside: A set amount of land. The Palestinian population grows just as any other. Expansion within the alloted boundries obviously is going to happen just as it will everywhere.
Zionist settlers that feel the entire region is theirs and settle on Palestinian land. They are going to grow just as anybody else. Just following the numbers its apparent to see that the two will collide. The difference is the settlers are protected by the full might of IDF.

I dont understand what the confusion or debate is. I've been told in prior conversations that giving the Palestinians their land back (referring to taking down every illegal settlement--not land control prior to the 40s) would jeapordize Isreali security and similiar ideals.

Palestinians dont want peace? Well settlements are there in the presence of terrorism. So is it the generel view that if the Palstinians just smiled and waved; the settlements would stop and pack up? The West Bank and Gaza arent big enough for the both of them. So I'm compelled to ask you the same question. Obviously killing innocent people is a horrible thing; what do you think the Palestinians should do about the Jewish population that is not declining on their land?

Aside from the history which can be debated round in circles, its the here and now with what the next day is going to bring thats vital. If the settlements continue----what do you see happening?

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Flat

Not that I'm about to say anything original or make a sensational first post but here it goes anyway :

Am I sorry that he's dead ? Not really although I do feel sorry for the usual "collateral damage" that was necessary in order to kill an overaged paraplegic (I mean, WTF, missiles ?).

However, it's obvious that Israel can no longer claim they're striving for peace in the middle east.

Allow me to disagree. The man wasn't a leader in the sense that he planned out and made the strategic/tactical decisions. He was just a symbol, the person who personified the struggle against Israel. With this assasination, that symbol has been immortalized rather than removed. Thus, no long term benefits. IMHO.

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hannukah harry

i know it's off topic, but why would they want to put kissenger on trial?

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popo

Sun, there's lots of confusion about the settlements and settlers. IMO they are given far too much focus for no reason. There is an estimated 300,000 "settlers" but that comprises people who live in & around Jerusalem, in land that was originally meant for neither Israel or Palestine. It was to be an international zone until the Arab states attacked in 48 rearranging everything. Jordan has given up their claim to that land (which they occupied until 1967) and although Israel will cede some of it to Palestine (truly as a good will gesture, since it was never planned for Palestine in the first place), they will not give it all up.

That's why the 300,000 settlers is misleading. Not counting the average joes in these surburbs, the true settler population is more in the range of 70,000. A lot of focus for a very small population. These are the people deep into the West Bank and Gaza who have religious views of the land belonging to Israel.

Although much noise is made regarding Hebron settlers, Jews have constantly and peacefully lived in Hebron throughout the ages until the 1929 Hebron Massacre when Arab mobs killed 67 Jews and forced the rest out. That's why there's only a tiny population of Jews in Hebron now. Why we hear so much about Deir Yassin and nothing on Hebron Massacre... your guess is as good as mine.

So, why should Jews be kicked out of areas (other areas of West Bank too) where they've lived for centuries? Isn't that ethnic cleansing of the West Bank? I don't hear the Left calling for a Right of Return for the Jews to areas where they were kicked out from... nor for the 600,000 or so Jews kicked out of Arab countries in the 50's.

Anyways, back to the "settlers"... even they aren't as nuts as they are made out to be.

The settlers are not an obstacle to peace.

Contrast those poll results to these from Oct 03:

Not good.

popo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flat
[B] Not that I'm about to say anything original or make a sensational first post but here it goes anyway :

He did narrowly escape another attack last summer. He's pretty quick on those wheels!

He actually was arrested years ago but Israel was forced to release him as part of PLO negotiations. Of course, he din't abide by the release agreement and still acted as the Hamas leader. Of course, Arafat watched and smiled.

You do realize that Hamas is not a moderate group... They are dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and replacing it with an Islamic state. They are not looking for a Palestinian state living side by side in peace with Israel.



It's not true. He was more than symbolic. He was the mastermind who founded Hamas and was no dummy. Even as a quadroplegic he was stressed religious duty to carry out attacks and even recently claimed that Islam allows for females to be suicide bombers which is why Hamas began recruiting them.

Anyone else notice that successful bombings have become rarer and rarer? More and more bombers are getting stopped. You knock out enough of their leaders and they are bound to be weaker for it, regardless of what they about revenge.

Phaenx

I saw in the paper like a thousand or so militants marched through town to his burial (military fatigues, guns, hamas headband militants; those kind). It made me wonder why they didn't send in a few more hundred missles and taken care of the whole lot right then and there? Maybe they didn't know they were there.

But it seems to me a perfect time to take care of a lot of the violent Palestinians, teach them a lesson about idolizing people like that saruman the white looking fellow as well.

I'd take my chances with the PR hit, or just write some sort of law that says those guys with those hamas military fatigue outfits get blown up on sight, and make a note of it for the future.

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Flat

Please stop, the image that comes to mind is guaranteeing me a ticket to hell.

Yes but Israel is not negotiating solely with Hamas but with the Palestenians a as whole. What I meant was that they knew this attack would really stir up the pot. They knew it would cause even more attacks worldwide as well as localy. In general, they knew it'd be a step backwards in any peace negotiations. Yet they went ahead. Thus they can no longer claim they want peace, they're dropping to the Hamas level of "exterminate the opponent".

Hm, not quite sure about either of those things.I still feel that his death was more of a boost to the fanatical sentiment . I surpose time will tell.



Because that would be killing people because of what they believe in. If Israel did that it'd just be conclusive proof that they're no better than the terrorists.

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Sun Tzu

EDIT

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popo

Flat, here are Btselem stats for the total number of Israeli civilians killed:

http://btselem.org/English/Statistic...ies_Tables.asp

Oct 01 to Feb 02: 77

March 02 to July 02: 185

August 02 to Dec 02: 63

Jan 03 to May 03: 50

June 03 to Oct 03: 76

Nov 03 to March 04: 23

Something Israel's done the past 5 months is working. Is it the separation wall? Is it the fact that Israel is giving Hamas and Fatah leadership something to worry about aside from whether to tell the bombers to stand at the front or back of the bus?

Or is it that the new leaders are being pressured to act too quickly, sending out 14 year olds to commit mass murder before they're fully "indoctrinated", as what happened yesterday.

I'm not sure if you saw the news report but a 14 year old was stopped at the border entry into Israel with a suicide vest. The boy was practically in tears, begging for a pair of scissors to be handed to him by a robot instead of 72 virgins. Maybe since he was only 14 he was only offered 52 virgins... maybe being a 14 year old he doesn't appreciate the value of a virgin. I dunno. But if this is what they're relying on to step up attacks...

These are the stats according to the IDF website (they only show by year):

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/ter...ce%20September

In 2002: 451 deaths Israeli civilian

In 2003: 213 deaths

In 2004: 29 deaths through 3 months (rate of ~120 for the year)

So again, Israel's doing something right. Even with terrorists madder than ever after many of their leaders have been targetted, they aren't as successful as they used to be.

OFKU0

This is true but the biggest problem yet is the mindset that Hamas et al.,,have regarding Israel. Rather than wishing death to Israel, they should really sharpen their pencils and realize that Israel isn't going anywhere soon and killing Israeli citizens only brings more dire circumstances to it's own peoples.

Having said that, and if the Hamas et al changed their strategy to wanting peace rather than not, they would target Israeli politicians rather than innocent civilians. Confused? As it stands now, whether the Palestinian's attack or not, they are still not getting anywhere.The Hamas could call a 20 year ceasefire and the plight of the Palestinian's wouldn't change one bit. If innocent Israeli's were killed, they could be relegated to collateral damage as the Palestinian's are now so.

Not making sense? Look at it like this. If the Palestinian terrorists streamlined their attacks towards people of authority, and let it be known it is Israel's policies directed towards them that is causing them to act as they do,whether or not such is the case, not the Israeli people in general, I would bet that the U.S would be quite interested in a solid peace plan.Whether or not the Israeli's are to blame for the plight of the Palestinian's doesn't matter, the inference will stick.


Why? Not to reward terrorism but rather to erradicate it. How can the U.S or anyone else then say that the Israeli's are not terrorists themselves if both sides are doing the same thing? They both want peace but the attacks continue from both sides. Who is right and who is wrong? The Israeli's are trying to defend their people and the Palestinian's are trying to defend their's. Political assasinations always make people sit up a little straighter.

Will this happen? No. And simply because Hamas et al are not smart enough to think that way which, in the end provides a virtual shooting gallery for the Israeli's. Do these people actually think that rifles and the odd rocket launcher is going to destroy the 4th most powerful military force in the world?

Morally correct? No. But what is? As far as I can see peace won't happen until Hamas make the changes I have suggested. I think the Israeli's, who aren't stupid know this and as long as chants like death to Israel continue,they hold the upper hand. If Hamas changes, the playing field will be equal, which wouldn't bode well for the Israeli's if the conflict lasts for any length of time since one side is so dominant over the other.

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SLM3

Considering the two intifadas take up a relatively small chunk of of the last 50 years, why don't you tell me how much non-violence has gotten the Palestinians over that time? They were a behaved oppressed people for many years, and what did that get them? If they're quiet, they're that much easier to squish. If they resist, they're terrorists.

The US will never approach the situation from a true mediator's standpoint. There will never be two states. That is unless they throw together a Palestinian state at the last second in order to avoid the innevitable shift in Israeli majority from Jewish to Arab.

The Palestinians have been demonized greatly in America. Thousands of years of coexistence in Palestine are ignored in order to relegate Palesinians to hateful anti-semites (it might be useful to look up semite to see the silliness of that term) who are Hell bent on the destruction of all Jews.

People forget who took what from whom. People see a 20 year old, educated woman with a bomb strapped to her chest and they ask why she's so evil, not teh question of what might cause her to take such desperate measures.

This 72 virgins garbage is getting tired too. If it was such a blissfull outcome, then why wait until now to take such action? Why aren't arabs all over the world blowing themselves up? What do they have to lose?


SLM3

Lebell

I don't recall the last time Israel sent scared children to blow up Palestinians:


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=50163

Israelis Stop Teen Wearing Suicide Vest
2 hours, 34 minutes ago

By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

HAWARA CHECKPOINT, West Bank - A 16-year-old Palestinian with a suicide bomb vest strapped to his torso was on a mission to kill the Israeli soldiers who caught and disarmed him before he could strike, the army said. The youngster told a newspaper he had been afraid to die.....

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SLM3

Why send kids when you've got Apaches?



SLM3

Lebell

You haven't addressed the basic point.

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SLM3

which is...?



SLM3

Lebell

That Isreal is NOT on the same level as Hamas, as stated by the poster I quoted.

I could however infer from your reply that you think that it is ok to strap bombs to children and send them at soldiers, into crowded markets, onto buses, etc. if you don't have Apache helicopters.

So are you advocating using children as soldiers?

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popo

You'll have to ask Jordan and Egypt this question since they were the ones to occupy the Palestinians up to 1967.

But I don't think many people are questioning whether the Palestinians deserve a state. The world thought they did in 1948, Israel offered the land back in 1967, Israel offered a country at Camp David and Taba. And before you go on about cantons etc., see a map of the Taba offer which Arafat immediately rejected only to accept 18 months later. (Arafat Approves Taba Plan too Late)

Israel is not denying the need for a Palestinian state. The disagreement is really just in how to get there. Israel does not want to vacate the area until the PA shows that they can handle security which they didn't do going way back to Oslo. No one wants to leave a leadership vacuum in an area ripe with militants.

Dude, Arafat has already received an offer that he found acceptable. He just fucked up so badly in not accepting it until it was off the table, 18 months later.

There absolutely will be 2 states.

It might have something to do with the fact that Palestinians teach anti-semitism in school textbooks .

Except for the fact that ssuicide bombings went UP after Oslo was signed and during the Peres/Netanyahu election campaign when Peres (the dove) was 20 points ahead of Netanyahu (the hawk). Hopes of more peaceful times seems to only encourage more suicide bombings for some reason.

You're right. Israel and the Jews made up that whole 72 virgins thing to make the Palestinians look bad.

And if semantics really bother you with regard to the term "anti-semite", do you go around correcting people when they refer to people of the USA as "Americans"? You know... Chileans are Americans too. It was a term coined by a German anti-semite. If the Arabs want it and everything that comes with it, they can have it.

SLM3

Yes, they're not on the same level. Where we differ is where we put Israel. When Israel shoots a missle into a crowd to kill one man, it is a military action and is not condemned by America (not that anything is). When a block of houses is bulldozed because Israel tells us it believes one of the houses MIGHT have been used by a terrorist, that's simply another military action. When Palestinians are systematically humiliated every day at checkpoints, that is for the safety of Israeli's, who apparently are a lot more valuable as human beings. Curfews that allow Palestinians to be outside for only 2 hours a day are seen as routine military action.

Instead of writing off the Palestinian resistance as hate-fed terrorism based solely on the destruction of another people, why don't you stop and ask what might drive these people to such actions?

Do I advocate suicide bombings? No, I don't. Do I support the Palestinian's right to resist occupation(as guaranteed to them by the UN)? Yes, I do.

My point is, if the Palestinians had the same US weapons that Israel does, they wouldn't be using suicide bombers. On that note, they probably wouldn't be treated as filth like they are now.


SLM3

Lebell

I think it's important to say that I don't support all of Israel's actions, even while I understand the frustration they come from.

Like you, I don't support sending a missle into a crowd to kill a person, even if that person deserves killing.

On the flip side, the Palestinians have been known to hide themselves and weapons in residential areas, schools, hospitals, etc. for just this reason.

I truly do support a two pronged approach which I think Israel is mistaken in not pursuing:

1) deal with those that can be reasoned with to hammer out a peace. Remove the economic reasons that people become terrorists.

2) For those that insist on destruction of one side or the other based on politics/religion/ideology then there can be no let up.

But honestly, I don't see the Palestinians supporting number 2 at all.

I think once they get their nation, it will always serve as a base for number 2 types to attack Isreal, while those number 1 types turn a blind eye because they dare not speak out against their "Brothers" who are fighting the "Jews".

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OFKU0

Or the Americans and whom other else can define the borders of a Palestinian state as fairly as possible to both Israeli's and Palestinian's.

If one rocket or suicide bomber blows up in Israel, say bye bye to Palestinian statehood and your ass is gonna get kicked hard by the American's,... all the while saying, "and you thought you had it bad before."

If the Israeli's don't play by the rules, say bye bye to any and all support from the Americans including all weapons and monies made available,..,all the while the American's saying, "fuck you and fend for yourself."

Call me ignorant but I don't know why this hasn't already happened.

Maybe both sides have to lose everything and not just human life before it ends.

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