Escalating Terrorism - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Boo · 03-11-2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Terror Blasts Kill at Least 192 in Spain
45 minutes ago

By MAR ROMAN, Associated Press Writer

MADRID, Spain - A series of bombs hidden in backpacks exploded in quick succession Thursday, blowing apart four commuter trains and killing at least 192 people and wounding more than 1,400. Spain at first blamed Basque separatists but a shadowy group claimed responsibility in the name of al-Qaida for the worst terrorist attack in Spanish history.

Panicked rush-hour commuters trampled on each other, abandoning their bags and shoes, after two of the bombs went off in one train in the Atocha station in the heart of Madrid. Train cars were turned into twisted wrecks and platforms were strewn with corpses. Cell phones rang unanswered on the bodies of the dead as frantic relatives tried to call them.

"March 11, 2004, now holds its place in the history of infamy," Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said.

The bombing came three days ahead of Spain's general election on Sunday. A major campaign issue was how to deal with ETA, the Basque militant group that is seeking greater autonomy.

Campaigning for the election was called off and three days of mourning were declared.

The bombings occurred exactly 2 1/2 years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, and was Europe's worst since the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am jetliner over Lockerbie, Scotland, that killed 270 people.

The attacks also reawakened terrorism fears among investors. Stocks fell in London and in New York, where the Dow Jones industrial average dropped nearly 170 points. On Friday, Tokyo stocks opened sharply lower.

The 10 backpack bombs exploded in a 15-minute span, starting about 7:39 a.m., on trains along nine miles of commuter line from Santa Eugenia to the Atocha terminal, a bustling hub for subway, commuter and long-distance trains just south of the famed Prado Museum. Police also found and detonated three other bombs.

The Interior Ministry said 192 people were killed and 1,421 injured.

"An act of barbaric terrorism has engulfed Spain with profound pain, repulsion and anger," King Juan Carlos said on national television.

Worst hit was a double-decker train at El Pozo station, where two bombs killed 70 people, fire department inspector Juan Redondo said. One corpse was blown onto the roof.

At the Santa Eugenia station, "there was one carriage totally blown apart. People were scattered all over the platforms. I saw legs and arms. I won't forget this ever. I've seen horror," said Enrique Sanchez, an ambulance worker.

Forty coroners worked to identify remains, the national news agency Efe said, and a steady stream of taxis carried relatives to a sprawling convention center that was turned into a makeshift morgue.

Three days of national mourning were declared and thousands of people took part in spontaneous anti-terror rallies across the country Thursday. The government called for nationwide anti-ETA demonstrations on Friday evening, and millions were expected.

Who carried out the highly coordinated attack was a mystery. The government put the Basque separatist group ETA at the top of its list of suspects, although a shadowy group claimed responsibility in the name of al-Qaida.

The Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said it had received a claim of responsibility issued in the name of al-Qaida. The e-mail claim, signed by the shadowy Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, was received at the newspaper's London offices and said the brigade's "death squad" had penetrated "one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain."

"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam," the claim said.

Spain had backed the U.S.-led war on Iraq (news - web sites) despite domestic opposition, and many al-Qaida-linked terrorists have been captured in Spain or were believed to have operated from there.

Spain's government is studying the reported al-Qaida claim but still believes ETA is more likely responsible, a senior official in Aznar's office said.

Spain's security forces were not ruling out "any line of investigation," Interior Minister Angel Acebes said.

The United States believes Al-Masri sometimes falsely claims to be acting on behalf of al-Qaida. The group took credit for blackouts in the United States and London last year.

The purported al-Qaida statement also claimed the terror group would soon hit the United States with a major attack. "The expected strike against America, is now at its final stage — 90 percent ready," it said.

Some officials think Spain, along with Germany, was an important staging ground for the Sept. 11 attacks. Since then, Spain has arrested more than 40 al-Qaida suspects.

If the attack was carried out by ETA, it could signal a radical and lethal change of strategy for the group that has largely targeted police and politicians in its decades-long fight for a separate Basque homeland.

But after police found a stolen van with seven detonators and the Arabic-language tape parked in a suburb near where the stricken trains originated, Acebes said: "I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line of investigation."

A top Basque politician, Arnold Otegi, denied ETA was behind the blasts and blamed "Arab resistance," noting Spain's support for the Iraq war.

The government said ETA had tried a similar attack on Christmas Eve, placing bombs on two trains bound for a Madrid station that was not hit Thursday.

"ETA had been looking for a massacre," said Acebes, the interior minister. "Unfortunately, today it achieved its goal."

The Interior Ministry said tests showed the explosives used in the attacks were a kind of dynamite normally used by ETA.

The bombers used titadine, a kind of compressed dynamite also found in a bomb-laden van intercepted last month as it headed for Madrid, a source at Aznar's office said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Officials blamed ETA then, too.

In a break with past ETA tactics, there were multiple attacks and no advance warning. ETA has usually gone after one target at a time and the largest casualty toll was 21 killed in 1987.

ETA has claimed responsibility for more than 800 deaths since 1968.

Sympathy poured in from capitals worldwide, led by Spain's partners in the 15-nation European Union (news - web sites), and neighboring France raised its terror alert level. In Athens, security also was tightened at train stations and the Spanish Embassy, although overall plans for the Aug. 13-29 Olympics will not change, officials said.

The United States, Britain and Russia said the attacks demonstrated the need for toughened resolve against terrorists.

President Bush (news - web sites) called Aznar and Juan Carlos, saying he expressed "our country's deepest sympathies toward those who lost their life.

"I told them we weep with the families. We stand strong with the people of Spain," he said.

The U.S. Senate unanimously passed a resolution expressing outrage and urging Bush to "provide all possible assistance to Spain" in pursuing the terrorists.

Aznar was a staunch supporter of U.S.-led war that ousted Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and Spain sent 1,300 troops to Iraq.

Aznar, who himself survived an ETA car bombing in 1995, will step down when a new government is formed after the elections.

Revulsion over the attack could benefit Aznar's ruling conservative Popular Party because of its hard-line stance against ETA.

Both the Popular Party and the opposition Socialists ruled out talks with ETA during the campaign.

"No negotiation is possible or desirable with these assassins who so many times have sown death all around Spain," Aznar said.

The Socialists came in for withering criticism during the campaign because a politician linked to the Socialist-run government in the Catalonia region, which also has separatist sentiment, admitted meeting with ETA members in France in January. The Socialists were lambasted as allegedly undermining Spain's fight against ETA.

The group — Euskadi ta Askatasuna, or Basque Homeland and Freedom — is believed by police to number perhaps only several dozen hard-core militants who are supported by a wider group of Basque nationalists.

The government had recently expressed cautious optimism that ETA was near defeat after mass arrests, seizures of weapons and explosives, increased cooperation from France and the banning of ETA's purported political front. The number of people killed in ETA attacks dropped to three last year.

Referring to the section in red:

What if tomorrows news included an attack on American soil? 100/500/1000 people killed. Destruction of an important religious or cultural facility/military base/government building?

Please do not debate the presidency here. I am curious as to the mindset of American people when confronted with multiple attacks. I personally believe that most Americans are in a form denial about 911 and don't believe that it could happen again or effect them.

Your thoughts on the actions of the U.S. if/when the terrorists do commit an attack. What nations would be involved? What escalation of tempo of military actions would you expect?

What personal actions would you take?

My personal opinion:

First of all, my condolences.

Hell hath no fury like an Eagle Scorned. Americans will fight for their freedom from terrorism. We will lose some of the sympathy for "innocent" civilians, international laws, and sovereign countries. Friends will find themselves in scrutiny. Enemies will receive rigid ultimations.

In the smaller picture people will stockpile food, weapons, and fuel. People will cancel travel and find alternatives to enable them to stay closer to home.

I have no sympathy for people that will kill 190+ civilians and call it a holy war. I no longer care to hear their reasons. I only want them stopped and removed from being a threat in the future.

(just fixed some board code -lebell)

Scipio · 03-11-2004, 10:24 PM

The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist...

seretogis · 03-12-2004, 01:19 AM

Just a note, please put the article within [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags (no spaces) so that it is clear where the article ends, and where your comments begin.

As for how a future attack would change my outlook, it wouldn't. People that target civilians in order to "make a statement" are nothing but mass-murderers and should be treated as such. It wouldn't change my daily routine at all.

seebee · 03-12-2004, 06:35 AM

Regarding a 'holy war', it is more than certain that God would condone such a means. Even Sodom and Gomorah, which stand as models of the Most wicked cities to be found, would be spared if a small number of good men or women could be found within them. And this would be divine justice, so how much more forbearing should human justice be, with all its fault and blindness?

Terrorists disregard God altogether. If violence must exist to solve problems, and how I pray it were not, it needs be done honourably. Not with cowardice, such as anonymous and impersonal bombings. Duels would be an example; perhaps not always the 'right' party would prove victorious, but it would be only between the parties immediately involved in any conflict.

seebee · 03-12-2004, 08:49 AM

I Apologize very much. The following statement from my post above was an error: "Regarding a 'holy war', it is more than certain that God would condone such a means. "

The correct reading should run, it is more than certain God would NOT condone such a means.

Indiscriminate killing, indeed any killing at all, goes against His own rule, that we shall not kill. The cowardice behind the attacks, impersonal as they are, itself is a sin, or against the law of God.

Again, God would not condone such blatantly evil deeds, as terrorism.

Strange Famous · 03-12-2004, 11:19 AM

ETA = terrorists
The French Resistance = Freedom Fighters

It is very funny to see some of the people who used to donate money to the IRA in their war against Britain and imperialism talk about the evil of terrorism.

All military action involves the application of terror - the difference between Spanish killers destroying 200 lives in a rail station and American bombers destroying 200 Iraqi's with cluster bombs is merelt definition.

Terrorism, the war against terror, freedom fighters... all the terminology is out of doubt now. It is all violence, it is all destruction, what matters now is the stark choice laid before humanity

Peace, or universal destruction

If we, all of us, from the US State to the Islamic "terrorist", cannot help ourselves from fighting, then nothing but universal death awaits us in the future. Maybe most of us alive now will make it, maybe not. Your grandchildren will not live to old age if we do not abandon forever the means of war and mass violence, this is a fact, and this is the choice to be made.

And we know, if we know nothing else, we know that violence is never sated, revenge is never satisfied, the war on terror is just more fuel on the fire - the choice is peace, or death - and right now so many people chose universal death it seems, because they cannot give up the will to fight and opress.

Dragonlich · 03-12-2004, 11:35 AM

Okay, how's about this for escalation:

Suppose a terror group nukes Tel Aviv. What would Israel do, and would their (undoubtedly bloody) response be justified?

Or what if Washington was nuked. What would be the likely reaction? Would the US declare war on Islam? I doubt it, so who would they strike back at, knowing that they *must* strike back?

Discussions about the reasons for terror are fine and dandy, but one day the unthinkable will happen, and I doubt anyone will care about the reasons at that moment...

03-11-2004, 10:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist... __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

03-12-2004, 01:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Just a note, please put the article within [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags (no spaces) so that it is clear where the article ends, and where your comments begin. As for how a future attack would change my outlook, it wouldn't. People that target civilians in order to "make a statement" are nothing but mass-murderers and should be treated as such. It wouldn't change my daily routine at all. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

03-12-2004, 11:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	ETA = terrorists The French Resistance = Freedom Fighters It is very funny to see some of the people who used to donate money to the IRA in their war against Britain and imperialism talk about the evil of terrorism. All military action involves the application of terror - the difference between Spanish killers destroying 200 lives in a rail station and American bombers destroying 200 Iraqi's with cluster bombs is merelt definition. Terrorism, the war against terror, freedom fighters... all the terminology is out of doubt now. It is all violence, it is all destruction, what matters now is the stark choice laid before humanity Peace, or universal destruction If we, all of us, from the US State to the Islamic "terrorist", cannot help ourselves from fighting, then nothing but universal death awaits us in the future. Maybe most of us alive now will make it, maybe not. Your grandchildren will not live to old age if we do not abandon forever the means of war and mass violence, this is a fact, and this is the choice to be made. And we know, if we know nothing else, we know that violence is never sated, revenge is never satisfied, the war on terror is just more fuel on the fire - the choice is peace, or death - and right now so many people chose universal death it seems, because they cannot give up the will to fight and opress. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-12-2004, 06:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
seebee Upright	Regarding a 'holy war', it is more than certain that God would condone such a means. Even Sodom and Gomorah, which stand as models of the Most wicked cities to be found, would be spared if a small number of good men or women could be found within them. And this would be divine justice, so how much more forbearing should human justice be, with all its fault and blindness? Terrorists disregard God altogether. If violence must exist to solve problems, and how I pray it were not, it needs be done honourably. Not with cowardice, such as anonymous and impersonal bombings. Duels would be an example; perhaps not always the 'right' party would prove victorious, but it would be only between the parties immediately involved in any conflict.

03-12-2004, 08:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
seebee Upright	I Apologize very much. The following statement from my post above was an error: "Regarding a 'holy war', it is more than certain that God would condone such a means. " The correct reading should run, it is more than certain God would NOT condone such a means. Indiscriminate killing, indeed any killing at all, goes against His own rule, that we shall not kill. The cowardice behind the attacks, impersonal as they are, itself is a sin, or against the law of God. Again, God would not condone such blatantly evil deeds, as terrorism.

03-12-2004, 11:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Okay, how's about this for escalation: Suppose a terror group nukes Tel Aviv. What would Israel do, and would their (undoubtedly bloody) response be justified? Or what if Washington was nuked. What would be the likely reaction? Would the US declare war on Islam? I doubt it, so who would they strike back at, knowing that they must strike back? Discussions about the reasons for terror are fine and dandy, but one day the unthinkable will happen, and I doubt anyone will care about the reasons at that moment...