Kadath

This weekend I saw my uncle and one of his sons for the first time in years. They're both Mormons from Utah, and my uncle's always been known to have some kooky ideas. I managed to steer discussion around to some things that have been discussed here, just to see how they felt. For some background, my uncle feels that the Branch Davidians at Waco were murdered by the FBI, and in the years leading up to 2000 he urged us to stockpile canned goods and silver bullion against the collapse of the world economy. He hates paying property taxes, as he feels that it indicates that you only rent the land from the government.

First, he feels that taking guns away from the people is a sure sign of the government engineering a destruction of our rights. I'm sure people around here feel that way; I'm not so sure we should give up our Second Amendment right. I wish people could be honest and just admit they like having guns, but okay. No problem so far.
Next we argued about homosexual marriage. My uncle was opposed to it, as he's opposed to homosexuality, but my cousin made what I consider to be an extremely solid point. It went thusly: People are going to continue to practice homosexuality. Homosexual couples are going to adopt children. Denying the couple legal rights hurts the child. Health benefits, custody in case of death, visitation rights in case of hospitalization, etc. Two for two on reasonable arguments.
Last was a discussion about satellite tv. My father was told by the provider he's considering that he'd have to pay an extra $5 a month to not have his phone line constantly hooked into the receiver. He didn't think much about it at the time, but my uncle and cousin immediately nodded knowingly. My cousin commented that the Superbowl breast incident was listed as the "most TiVo'ed moment in history." We nodded and said "Yeah, so?" "How did they know? They must be keeping track of what you watch."
My father just about lost his mind. I had to spend the whole trip home calming him down. Now I have to call the company and find out why they want to do it and it's a huge pain in my ass. The thing is...I'm pretty sure my uncle and cousin are right.

Moral of the story? My kooky relatives are sounding less crazy every day. Maybe I'm going crazy too.

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it's quiet in here

Lebell

Interesting observations.

Re: Tivo, yes they track. That's a big stink right now for them.

Re: Guns, I have no problem admitting I like them. Going out to the range or my friend's ranch and blasting away at bottles and cans is just plain fun!

Re: Canned goods and silver: A food stockpile is just common sense and I'm not talking for crazy reasons. There are natural disasters and civil disturbances apleanty that can happen. Silver? Mmm, maybe. While it would be a MUCH worse situation (collapse of our govt.) if it DID happen, paper money would be...well...just paper and worth nothing. (I go back and forth over the necessity of stockpiling some silver).

As to the other stuff, there are many people who feel that way about property taxes, Waco, etc.

I am not necessarily one of them, but I at least understand the arguments.

And btw, I don't like the thought of Tivo tracking my viewing either. It's none of their damn business what I watch.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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mml

I fully respect the right to be a conspiracy theorist and they should respect my right to snicker at them.

Actually I used to have a guy who worked for me that sounds just like your uncle and while I never agreed with him, I had to admit that if the shit did hit the fan, he was much better prepared than I would be.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Strange Famous

I think it is pretty clear that the people at Waco were murdered by the government, which doesnt change the fact that David Koresh was a maniac... but they torched the place and burned all those people to death, of course its murder.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Tophat665

Hit the nail square on the head there. Massively disproportionate response.

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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Scipio

I suppose I'm too young to have a nuanced memory of Waco. But I might weigh in a few of those points.

Gay marriage? Sure, let them have their rights. Civil marriages; nobody wants to force churches to marry gays, nor should they.

Stockpiling food and silver? Everybody should have a flashlight and some batteries in their basement. Some non-perishables might not be a bad idea, but in a disaster you'll need water and such more. If you have a reliable water supply, some vitamins, and a medical kit, you can last for quite a while. At least a week without any food, probably longer, and with even some basic non-perishables you'll be set.

Silver might be valuable if the monetary system collapses. That seems rather unlikely though. I'd just have a gun in my basement, plenty of ammo, and know how to use it. Realitically, in a major crisis you're going to need food, water, and medicine. If there is anything out there for you to buy, people will probably still take greenbacks for it. By that logic, you should keep a few rolls of $20s in your mattress, not silver coins.

And on a side note, money's worth isn't directly derived from the government, though the government does control its quantity. Money will continue to buy stuff as long as it remains scarce. If the government disappears, money will only lose value when it becomes widely counterfeited. Then again, it might not take long for that to happen.

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

Rekna

What exactly causes gold or silver to have value? Stockpiling it wouldn't do much good. If the economy colapased a loaf of bread or a sack of wheat would be much more valuable than a bar of gold.

Lebell

Historically, the scarcity of precious metals (which caused a natural control) coupled with the usefulness/beauty of the worked metal caused them to be useful "money".

Today they still have those quantities in addition to having no borders with regard to who will accept them and who won't.

Now of course you are right that if there is a total collapse, all the gold in the world won't buy you a loaf of bread if everyone is starving. But if it is something less than that, then precious metals will once again become the standard trading item, that and specialty manufactured goods, such as sewing needles, ammunitions and .... toilet paper!

Scipio:

Paper money is DIRECTLY related to the governement that issues it. This is basic economic theory.

Seriously, take out any denomination bill and look at it. Really look. It's just a piece of fancy paper. The value in it lies in the fact that you can give it to someone and they'll give you something you want in return.

But what if they say, "no thanks"?

Then your paper is worthless, except maybe to use in place of the above mentioned toilet paper.

And in the case of a govt. collapse, that is exactly what will happen.

Someone along the chain will realize that its just paper and demand something more substantial and then paper currency collapses.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Sun Tzu

Im not disagreeing with you; Im just curious to what information you have read and where you got it for you to conclude Koresh was a maniac.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Scipio

I agree. It is directly RELATED. If you want to talk economics, we can talk economics, but you don't have to have had an econ class to tell me what you're telling me.

And you make my point! It's fiat money. The paper itself has little inherent value and no utility. Its value is actually derived from two things. One, it's scarcity, meaning the supply is more or less controlled (which is where the government comes in). Two, people will accept it as payment. It doesn't have value by decree. If the government didn't issue dollars, we would just use pounds or euros.

I stand by my prior statement, as I don't think your "basic economic theory" has done anything at all to contradict it.

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

Strange Famous

I have read that Koresh came to believe that he was a prophet of God, and that he raped female members of his cult, claiming that the act of sex with him was equivalent to receiving the sacriment of God. I dont have a lot of info on him, but from what I heard and read he was pretty crazy

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

A small correction: it's value is determined by 1) how difficult it is to obtain (scarcity, as you pointed out) and 2)what I can do with it (it's relative value).

In otherwords, if I can't do anything with this fancy paper, it doesn't matter that it is scarce; it becomes merely something to collect as a hobby, which I may or may not do.

edit to add:

And it's no skin off my nose that want to believe this, so no hard feelings.

But if TSHTF, good luck with your paper.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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The_Dunedan

On Koresh:
The FBI admitted, in the final week of the Mount Carmel siege, that they knew Koresh was -not- having sexual contact with minors. This in a memo from FBI Director Louis Freeh to AtGen Janet Reno. Koresh never made any claims to Godhood, although he did state on -one- occaision that he believed he was prophetic. However, he always made it very clear that he did -not- equivocate himself with the OT prophets.
The intentional use of CS blister gas ( which is converted to Hydrogen Cyanide when the kerosene suspension used to atomize the CS crystals catches fire ), combined with the use of pyrotechnic grenades, flash-bangs, and tracer machinegun ammunition, constitutes not only arson, but the use of Chemical Weapons, which is a War Crime. Incidentally, CS is illegal to use in warfare, for this very reason.
It turns out that the entire thing was a raid to collect a Form 4 tax stamp which, btw, the Branch Dividians DIDN'T owe. They owned no Class III weapons; no machineguns, silencers, sawn-off rifles or shotguns, cannon, or explosives. The ATF searchwarrant lists a number of weapons, but no Class III devices, ergo, no tax owed, ergo no need for the raid.
That's right, because of a glitch, a 150-man assault team was sent to collect a $200 tax which the accused persons didn't owe in the FIRST PLACE. Koresh went jogging in Waco every day; he could have been arrested then. Instead, AtGen Reno decided that an example needed to be made of those "gun people."
For this, the ATF fired something like 4500 rounds of AP .308 into a CHURCH full of kids. The first casualty: David Koresh's baby daughter, shot through the head when Koresh opened the door to ask what was going on.
For the next 82 days, the ATF and FBI circulated ever more rediculous and incindiary rumors about the Davidians; Child Molestors, Meth Labs, Koresh Thinks He's Jesus, et al. As each of these was torn apart, a new one arose to take it's place, and the Media Whores dutifully parroted each new lie.
When the Mount Carmel Church finally burned, thanks to the abovementioned arson and WMD use, the Davidians who tried to flee were fired upon by HRT and Delta Force snipers, including HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi, who had been responsible for the murder of Vicki Weaver some months earlier.
The few survivors were tried for an array of offenses, such as Daring To Defend Themselves Against His Majesty's Men, Resistance of Unlawful Invasion, etc etc. Basically, it all came down to FBI and ATF trying to cover up the fact that they invaded a man's home, with an illegal warrant, got their asses handed to them in the initial firefight, and then burned that man, his wife, their children, and 80-odd other people to death in a cloud of flammable, toxic gas.
When the surviving Davidians were acquitted, the judge declared the -verdict- to be In Contempt, and locked the survivors up anyway. It took nearly 3 years to get these people, ACQUITTED OF ANY CRIME, released.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Strange Famous

Why does a church need guns in the first place though?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

It was their living compound, not a church.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Scipio

The point about money is not that it would be worth something in the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust. If, say, the banking system collapsed, and your electronic money was lost, it might be worthwhile to have a grand in cash in your basement.

Now, the whole thing about preparing for a nuclear holocaust is where we get into the tin foil hat stuff, and in that case you might want to put a treasure chest full of silver next to your roll of twenties.

__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

losthellhound

I love the idea of stock piling silver.. that was you're safe from the collapse of the world economy, and werewolves

Some people just have different views of the world. I dont think they're at tin foil hat time quite yet.. But getting close.

You should have told him that they track what he likes to watch so they know what advertising to play. and if they didnt know what he liked and didnt, all he'd get would be feminine hygene product ads

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

Ustwo

Non-tinfoil hat - Being set to survive in case of a major disaster, civil disorder, war etc.

Tinfoil hat - Being set to survive after the aliens who built the pyramids return to claim their children.

I’ve thought about building a bomb shelter or the like, but I’m just to damn lazy. If things start to get dicey with China I just might. Sure its most likely a waste of money, but its only money.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Scipio

Silver doesn't protect you from a world economic collapse. It just gives you something to barter with in case it does happen. With or without silver, you're still pretty screwed, as is everyone else.

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

Boo

I want to build a retreat/shelter/cabin. A place to relax, grow some weed, stash some ammo and fuel, and brew some ale. Tis only a dream for now.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

Conclamo Ludus

I'm stockpiling condoms and k-y for use as currency. Silver hah!

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Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

Sun Tzu

Im not slamming you StrangeFamous or disputing what you read or believe; I'm interested to know where you read this. Can you provide the source where you got that information. Thanks.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

james t kirk

Getting back to the TV gods monitoring what you watch, i guess it comes down to privacy. More and more these days, your privacy is becoming easier and easier to violate.

I don't really care so much if the TV gods know what I watch, but I have often thought about the credit gods knowing exactly where I spend my money.

A couple years back I had a call from TD Visa who said that there had "been some unusual activity on my Visa card" and had I been writing any Visa cheques lately.

The answer was no, and as it turned out, someone had pinched my numbers since i still had the card in my wallet.

So somewhere some computer went, "hmmm, this guy usually uses his visa card at Italian Restaurants, Thai Restaurants, and gas stations. Now all of a sudden, he's writing visa cheques"

So to me, them knowing and tracking and keeping record of where i spend my money is somewhat cause for concern. I guess a run for prime minister would be complicated when word leaks out that I have used my Visa card to rent pornos, or visit the local massage parlour.