Strange Famous

In the suicide attack on the World Trade Centre on 9/11

And how many civilian losses were suffered during the attack on and occupation of Iraq by America and the UK?

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monkeydriven

Between 8000-11000 Iraqis


http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

around 2,800 civilians in WTC

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...date=2/12/2004

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Sparhawk

538 Americans and 58 Brits; 399 and 25, respectively, since "Mission Accomplished"

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

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Ustwo

Chuckle, uh huh.

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Strange Famous

Ustwo, I am not seeing the joke?

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Seaver

Siting sources like these as fact make baby jesus cry.

Mojo_PeiPei

Plus taking the deaths out of context. I don't know if those figures listed discern military/baathist/insurgent casulities.

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Ustwo

What Seaver said.

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Ustwo

Perhaps a better question would be...

Why do Iraqi civilian deaths only concern the left when they can blame the US for them?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Kadath

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Ustwo

Kadath I am patient with you, but you have had very little to offer over the last few months. I do thank you for pointing out 2 spelling mistakes over that time period.


It is a very legitimate question on my part and leads to the real source of the angst I feel here.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Pacifier

Well, since the USA doesn't count how much civilians they have killed its the only source we have, I'm afraid. Or can you provide a more reliable source?

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Strange Famous

Iraqi civilian deaths concern me whether they are killed by Baarthist supporters or the American army.

At the moment, stories are coming out concerning prisoners of war beaten to death and tortured by British soliders... is THIS the war we went to fight?

What interests me is that the attack on the WTC is presented as one of the most outrageous atrocities ever committed, whereas when far more people in Iraq are killed by American bombs in Iraq, it is somehow seen as an accident, as "collateral damage", some unfortunate but unavoidable side effect of having to remove Saddam Hussain (which we had to do o course, since he could have struck Canterbury or Hemmel Hempstead with chemical weapons at 45 minutes notice... oh, except he couldnt actually, because the Iraqi chemical weapons programme turned out to be pathetic and unable to be used even in combat)

There were a lot of ways Saddam Hussain could have been removed - the best would have been to have given military support to his opponents in Iraq in 1992. America didnt, they left them high and dry and allowed Hussain to massacre them and consolidate his power... then followed the sanctions, which coupled with the corruption of the Baarth regime, caused probably a million deaths in Iraq. Both the Iraqi regime and the West share the blame equally for these deaths.

And now Iraqi's are being killed every day, by civil war and by the occupation forces... I wonder, how many more Iraqi's need to die for people to consider this an equal atrocity to the attack on the WTC attack. It then would be a simple equation, we would know how MUCH more important a westerners life is than an Iraqi's life.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

theusername

Famous your right about 1992. But we didnt do it. Should we have left Saddam at the helm?

seretogis

heh.

An interesting statistic would be how fewer Iraqi casualties there were in the US/iraq war, compared to Hussein's mass-murder in years past. Relatively, the number of casualties on both sides in this war is extremely low.

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Strange Famous

A very Orwellian perspective. And I believe also a false one. Hussain may have been responsible for murders, but nothing like on this scale.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

You're right of course.

The scale of murders committed by Saddam Hussein were much worse.

Link

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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ARTelevision

Thanks for the reality checks, Lebell.

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Boo

Ditto

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Strange Famous

people killed in a war against Iran are hardly "murdered" by Saddam Hussain, they were casualties of war.

And "between 70 and 125" is a difference of 440,000 deaths overall (assuming 8000 days)... these figures hardly sound precise.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

pan6467

Forgive me for being a dork but I don't know how to do the quote thingy.

Anyway, to point out some thoughts on what is being said.

Saddam fought a needless war against Iran BUT OUR war against Saddam was legitimate. I find that laughable as Dubya changes his reasons every time the previous reason is shown to be a lie.

We're going in because of Axis of Evil. (Under that theory we should have gone into N. Korea and Iran also). And Saddam was a part of 9/11.

Later...... We never linked him to 9/11, but he's got WMD's and he's an IMMINENT THREAT.

Later.............. We never said he had them and we definately noone in the White House ever said Imminent threat.

So don't compare our war as a legitimate one.

I just think Bush is stretching to find an excuse over this war and it's costs. And his followers are so full of hate and anger towards democrats and anyone that would question the war that they'll support anything he does and will turn a blind eye to the reasoning Bush gives.

It's a deadly road we are embarking on and one that soon we will not be able to turn around and get off of it.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Lebell

*shakes head*

Whatever.

I am washing my hands of this conversation.

Good day to you.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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mr sticky

Strange, I think your point was to present the loss of life on both as being equally atrocious, however most of us feel that "intent" is the true measure of conduct.
The WTC bombing was a mass murder, meant to be as such. There was never any other intention but to kill innocent Americans. The target had no military value, nor did the structure have any entity that was diametrically opposed to the radical Islamic movement. Its fall had no strategic value.
Our mission, to route the terrorist threat, is less definable than say a strict ground campaign, but we only pursue military targets. If a radical Islamic group held the position over us that we hold over Iraq, the death toll would be in the millions.
Face it Strange, you have a good heart, but not all the world feels as you do. As a westerner, the radical Islamic would kill you for just being a westerner, and celebrate it. Yet, at least in the USA, our mid eastern emigrants aren't being hunted in the streets.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Why did Saddam go into Iran? Because he was afraid of a shiite revolution. Not in anyway shape or form legitimate.

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losthellhound

Excuse me.. sorry to interupt, BUT

Why are we linking the World Trade Center deaths with the invasion of Iraq?

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Rekna

If Iranian deaths during that war don't count why do Iraqi casualties during this war count?

Sparhawk

Well, this weekend marks 400+ US deaths since "Mission Accomplished"

Happy President's Day....

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."