Superbelt

Tell that to Jose Padilla
Scum, to be sure. But he IS an american citizen and has never stopped living in the USA, which is unlike Lindh.

American Citizen being detained indefinetley without access to a lawyer or the ability to prove his innocence.

And he is being detained and "processed" through USA Patriot act tools.

mb99usa

Does anyone follow what a terrorist does? Their goal is to get you to change your way of thinking and adjust your actions in response to their tactics and actions. They want you to become a reactionary society they can manipulate. Sounds like they succeeded. We are so worried about terrorism that we forget to live our lives.

I drive a major highway near Washington DC everyday. Whenever the "terror alert" gets raised there is a sign that displays a message that basically says (can't remember the exact wording): Please report any suspicious activity to (phone number).

I'm doing 75mph down the highway what am I expected to see? Am I supposed to write that phone number down while driving for later reference?

These are the ridiculous measures that are becoming commonplace because of legislation liek the Patriot Act. I may not have been directly affected or know anyone who has yet but what makes you think an open forum like this is not already being monitored for "terrorist thoughts"?

Personally my fear is not the Patriot Act itself, I am against it, but what it opens the door for in the future.

__________________
So, what's your point?

It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

ARTelevision

"...next thing we know, we're going to have people jailed for expressing their beliefs."

This is an example of what is called a "slippery slope" argument - and it convinces no one who knows rhetorical strategy. Because one thing may be argued as true, it does not follow that every successive argument is true, or even relevant to the particular issue in question, etc...

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create evolution

sixate

His argument is weak. There is no catch 22. 99% of the time a terrorist will never be caught because they can't get hard evidence to do it. Many times criminals walk because there isn't enough hard evidence. So just because you aren't convicted that doesn't mean you aren't a criminal or terrorist. Maybe in the eyes of the "law" you aren't, but there's a place called reality where you are a terrorist or criminal no matter what the law says. Shit man, OJ is walking free today, but that motherfucker decapitated 2 people. What's wrong if they use the Patriot Act to search things that couldn't be done before to convict people...

There aren't any laws that coulda gotten that shit done at the strip club. If there was it would've been done. Either way, the Patriot Act was used to look up financial records which couldn't have been touched any other way because they didn't have enough hard evidence. They found what they needed when they looked up all financial records. Illegal shit was going on. Period! Why do you keep sticking up for criminals?

A child pornographer isn't a terrorist, but the problem is people like you don't think the government should violate their rights. Motherfuck that! They don't have the fucking right to do that shit in the first place.

ubertuber

He is the guy you are thinking of. First off, in the eyes of the judicial process, a citizen is a citizen. Non-domestic or not, if you are a citizen of the US, you should be entitled to all the protections and rights that come with citizenship. Secondly, the Patriot Act can be used against citizens in domestic circumstances - that has been posted above. Lastly, the half the reason the process is different for the people at Gitmo is because they AREN'T citizens, not because it is a terrorism case.

This is difficult because according to the standard that terrorism is different from a standard criminal case, your rights can be suspended (or altered by applying the Patriot Act) just because the government THINKS you are a terrorist. Or worse, because the government SAYS you are a terrorist. I think that is what has people most concerned.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Superbelt

I'll say FUCK NO the government doesn't have the right to violate a suspected child molesters rights. Because until we have that conviction he IS NOT A CHILD MOLESTER.

You would sing an entirely different tune if some 12 year old evil little kids tried to extort you for $600 dollars and tells the cops that you molested them when you wouldn't give them the money.
Then, as you sit in your little cell for a year without access to a lawyer or your family, as can be done (and worse) under the USA PATRIOT act, you may then start regretting not speaking up when....

sixate

FUCK NO I wouldn't sing a different tune. In the day of DNA testing there's no way I would be convicted. So I could give a crap less. I wouldn't be sitting in any cell, and the Patriot Act would do nother other than help clear my name because nothing would be found. Give me a break.

People like you and The Dude are the reasons why crime is everywhere. You think people have the right to be criminals. If I rape a boy, I'm a criminal, and I don't have to be convicted of a crime to be considered a criminal. Once you commit a crime you are a criminal.

Superbelt

DNA testing doesn't prove everything. You don't need convicted. You just need to be "detained" for a year without a lawyer to fuck your life up.

There are equal crimes for you touching their privates.
Several different kinds of molestations that won't leave readily traceable dna evidence on them.

Especially if there is no vaginal/anal penetration.

You could get hosed pretty badly if you get carted away for touching a bunch of 12 year old kids dicks and not have the services of a lawyer to cross examine them and tear their fictional story apart.

sixate

I'm removing myself from this conversation because there's nothing that can be said that will change anyone's minds here. So this is pretty much useless.

Superbelt

What??
I think you're right on one point. This conversation is pretty much useless. Neither of us will convince the other which is more important. The Constitution or the Patriot Acts tools for protecting us from terrorists.

But why hone in on that one little quote about "DNA testing doesn't prove everything."? It's true. You can molest without a discharge.

debaser

This country is founded on the rule of law. The "Patriot Act" has removed your right to due process.

Thats right, you no longer have it. All you have now is the word of individuals that you need not worry unless you are a terrorist.

I don't know about you, but I don't hold much faith in the governments "word".

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Lebell

That's probably the most succinct and to the point post regarding what is wrong with the Patriot Act.

Well done.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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The_Dude

great post indeed.

the patriot is just an easy way to circumvent other laws put in place (laws which are passed thru the legislative system) and not explain what you are doing.

with the patriot, ashcroft's decisions carry the weight of the legislature+executive.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

smooth

Hey sixate, if you get a chance check out Bill Thompson and Simon Cole's (two profs at my uni) work on DNA and fingerprint testing.

It isn't as cut and dry as you (or most people) think. I'd say more on the subject, but if you really are willing to learn about this subject you'll run a search on their names and maybe even pick some stuff up from your local library.

Superbelt

Harvard man?

nanofever

Linky please because the only link I see is the patriot act being applied to corrupt city officals who were bought by a titty bar, drug runners and child pornographers. A corrupt official isn't a terrorist, a drug runner isn't a terrorist and a child pornographer isn't a terrorist.

But since we don't like them, we can change the definition of terrorist to a bad person and use the Patriot Act to imprison anyone we don't like without that pesky due process thing getting in the way.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Rekna

The sad thing is if someone's rights that I know were violated I wouldn't know it because he would just be missing or else never known that the government probed into his life. My fear is not the patriot act being used against guilty people it is when it is used against innocent people who the government thinks is guilty.

smooth

nah, but better

Anyway, here are their profiles with some titles for those interested in following up on this issue:

http://www.seweb.uci.edu/faculty/thompson/

http://www.seweb.uci.edu/faculty/cole/

nanofever

I think we all know Irvine is a cow college... wait, no thats Davis.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

BoCo

The Holocaust affected/violated every Jew and Christian you know in one way or another. Just because you don't happen to know someone that was directly locked in a concentration camp and lined up to be put in an over doesn't mean you or those around you weren't affected by what Nazi Germany did. Sorry, but that's seriously one of the dumbest comments I've ever seen around this place. It'd be equally as stupid as saying, for example, you don't know any black people that were violated by slavery in the U.S.

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Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.

Pacifier

yep, in a way or another, just like the "Patriot" act affects everyone in a way or another

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

ARTelevision

No actually, the Patriot Act is not "just like" the Holocaust in any but the most trivial ways. Extreme exaggeration is not the rational way to make a point.

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create evolution

The_Dude

OK, I went around and asked two people today that were alive during WWII and they said it didnt really affect them.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

filtherton

Not just like, but in the context of sixate's "if it doesn't affect me it doesn't matter to me" argument it applies.

ARTelevision

Perhaps. It's a real problem however - this continual comparison of conditions in Nazi Germany to current events. It's truly bad rhetoric and is evidence of a tendency to exaggerate beyond rational bounds.

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create evolution

debaser

I agree.

As egregious as the "Patriot Act" is, there is no comparison that can be made to the systematic extermination of 10 million people.

Just another stunning vindication of Godwins Law I suppose...

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illesturban

I'm a little late in the argument, but I have to add my two cents. For me it isn't the fact that no, maybe this act has not affected me PERSONALLY (yet). But after reading what this act has given our government the power to do, it's frightening:

So just what does the Patriot Act give the Bush administration the right to do? Well, for starters, it allows the FBI to monitor everything from e-mail to medical records to library accounts, providing frightening access to once private information. They can now legally wiretap phones, break into homes and offices, and access financial records without probable cause.

The Patriot Act broadens terrorism to include "domestic terrorism" which could potentially be used to target activist groups within the country speaking out against Bush's treacherous deeds.

The Patriot Act also disregards attorney-client privilege and authorizes government surveillance of previously confidential discussions.

Immigrants can be detained indefinitely based on suspicion alone, and the Patriot Act aids the excessive amounts of deportations that are taking place.

And you're telling me why should I care!? HAH! I care because it's my rights that have the potential of being violated for stupid reasons like Eminem being investigated by the FBI for saying "I'd rather see the president dead" in one of his songs. I'm sick of the terrorism excuse in this country. Every damn day I turn on the TV I see what state our country is in for terrorism or what the national "potential terrorism level" is. We are constantly being told to be in a state of fear, and we're falling for it.

I think Rekna said it very well...
USA Patriot is an acronym for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism."

WTF!? I hate the word Patriot being used like this. This act is bullshit and I'll be glad when the moron who signed it into effect is gone.

To read more about what the Patriot Act really says...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ056.107

Candide

Sixate - This will be my only post on this thread, but I'd like it very much if you would consider what I write.

The strength of the TFP, and indeed of all free societies, is the unrestricted, well-considered exchange of information and opinion. Pretty much all other virtues flow from this.

Opinion without fact is, well, "sound and fury signifying nothing." I have read your posts and replies and I find the quote above applies quite well to what you write.

The strength of your opinions is not tempered by a willingness to consider alternate points of view - this renders your defence of your opinions worthless. For if you cannot admit the falsifiability of your theories, the theories cannot therefore be proveable.

Even when someone presents logic or facts that contradict your world view, you either change the terms of debate or simply gainsay the other persons' points.

"Is too!," "Is not!" is hardly dialectic.

Please point out a single instance where you admit on any thread that your post was mistaken or ill-informed - I would truly love to be proven wrong about your rhetoric.

Respectfully (and sorry for the mini-threadjack),
Candide.

JumpinJesus

While I agree with your assessment, I think what most people are trying to do is to use the most glaring example they can think of to demonstrate a government that's gone too far. Since most people do not want to go into too much detail explaining the process of how post WWI Germany gradually devolved into facism in a willing manner, they use a quick comparison to make their point.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that they are trying to insinuate that our current administration is on par with Nazi Germany. I think the point they are trying to make is that an unchecked government can get out of control.




-------------------------------------------------------------
Sixate,
Based upon your final post, I'm not certain whether you're still reading or not, but let me attempt to address your point, "Who violates people's rights more than criminals and terrorists?".

You are absolutely right. Law abiding people do not violate people's rights and the violation of a person's rights is a criminal act.

Now, allow me to ask you: Has a criminal ever held office in our government? By your definition, I'm speaking of anyone who has committed a crime, convicted or not. I'm certain that we can both agree that there have been criminals within our government, including many who have never been charged with a crime. Using a logical argument, wouldn't it seem to follow that if a criminal violates the rights of others, then our government could seemingly violate our rights?

Not to mince words here, but let's be honest...if a person can be considered a criminal even if he or she has not been convicted but has simply committed a crime, then is there anyone among us on this board who can claim they are entirely crime-free in their lives? No littering, speeding, failing to buckle a seat belt...? Is there anyone who can claim that they have not violated any City, State, or Federal laws, ordinances, or statutes? Petty, yes, but crimes nonetheless. If any of us have committed a crime, even as benign as dropping a gum wrapper on the ground, then can any of us truly say that we have nothing to worry about since we're not criminals?

And yes, I am ineterested in intelligent debate on this point. We can get into further details if you choose to respond.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Conclamo Ludus

The Patriot Act pisses me off in some ways. I think it is definitely necessary to extend the abilities of the appropriate agencies in fighting terror, but we need to maintain constitutional values, otherwise we aren't really fighting for much. I don't care about its use on non-citizens so much, but its use should be to fight terror, and as long as you are a citizen of this country you should are protected by the constitution. Surely there could be better ways for this administration to go about fighting terror. I support this administration on most things, but this is not one of them. They need to reform the Patriot Act if they want to keep it in effect.

Sidenote: Its amazing how Nazi Germany has become this mythical beast that we compare bad things to at the drop of a hat. If you use a sword too often it loses its edge. I have no idea anymore of who Hitler was. I've heard he was Hussein. I've heard he is Bush. I've heard he is Bin Laden. I've heard he is Jerry Fallwell. I've heard he is Barney the big purple dinosaur. He has become the boogeyman to everyone. But sadly unlike the boogeyman, Hitler's sins were quite real. Hitler was Hitler. Nazis were Nazis. And the Patriot Act has the potential to be creepy. Lets not lose our heads here.

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Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
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nanofever

People of a specific race/religion being detained simply because of their race/religion, these people had their rights stripped from them and were made to rot in a cell without charges being brought or legal representation. In essence, these people were picked-up of the streets and vanished.

Seems an awful lot like Arabs post 9/11, Jim Crow post Plessy V. and the first crimes against the Jews in Germany.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Xell101

Wish I got in here earlier, but the Patriot Act does have many good applications, but it's like running over bugs with a Cadillac, it's excessive, too broad a solution. When making laws to solve issues the narrowest path to resolution should be taken. The Patriot Act blankets many catagories with it's influence, most of which aren't broken.

onetime2

Is it apparent to anyone else that the system of checks and balances is working in the case of the Patriot Act? To listen to some here (and elsewhere) the sky is falling, all our rights are being permanently taken away, and something needs to be done.

In reality, the Act was passed, used, is being challenged, and, in cases where it's illegal, is being invalidated. Seems like something IS being done, the system is working.

It's at least conceivable that the Act was created with the full knowledge that parts or all of it would be rejected by the courts. Obviously this process takes time to work and until it is challenged and rejected, the authorities can clean up the mess that our sloppy border security/intelligence services/last several administrations created by not paying attention to the terrorist threat that's been obvious for decades.

I'm sure there will be arguments that the administration wants to permanently take away citizens rights, that they're not smart enough to do this or that, or that the violation of a single right makes the Patriot Act an evil that can't be overcome by any safety that it may provide. Fine, these could be true as well. To me, in the short term, the Act has likely provided the means for law enforcement to insure that more terrorist attacks didn't occur in the US in the months/years since 9/11. Can anyone imagine the level of fear/panic/economic decimation that another attack or two with similar results soon after 9/11 would have had? Thankfully we will never know.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

ARTelevision

onetime2, thanks for moving this discussion forward with your balanced perspective.

To those of you who won't give an inch on your persistent references to the relevance of pre-WW2 Germany: I'm giving you some perspective on how your extremism sounds to those with whom you are engaging in debate. If your desire is to sound unflinchingly convinced to yourself and others, you're succeeding. If you have any interest in being taken seriously by your opponents, you may want to check the reference to "Godwin's Law."

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

It seems we may have broached this boundary and are endlessly circling the wagons.

onetime2 has, in fact, moved the discussion forward for all of us. His synthesis of the polarities of our debate places this thread back into the real world.

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create evolution

Ratman

It's pretty obvious that most of you have not read the USA PATRIOT act. The portion that was deemed unconstitutional basically said this- If you give money to a charity, and that charity with OR WITHOUT your knowledge in any way supports what could be loosely defined as "terrorist activities", YOU can be prosecuted for aiding the terrorists.

Now, an example that shows how this could affect everyone in America, and why more precise language is necessary to protect our civil rights. Before you go crazy, remeber that the likelyhood that this would happen is negligible, but possible, which justifies the courts action.

You give a donation through work to a charity that your company has had a long term relationship with. The charity is a soup kitchen, and you and some of your co-workers volunteer there occssionaly. The soup kitchen buys some of its supplies form a paper goods company. The owner of the company is actally hidden behind a shell, and turns out to be someone that gives money from the company to a religious organization (church, let's say) that sponsored three parishoners for a pilgrimage that was really a training session for terrorists. The connection is revealed. You and anyone else that dinated time or money to the soup kitchen COULD be prosecuted under the PATRIOT act.

Again, would this happen? Probably not, but the key word is probably. Under the Act, the way it was written, there is nothing to prevent it from happening. That is why the court took the action it did.

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The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

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