Bush in Baghdad - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

matthew330 · 11-29-2003, 10:35 PM

yeah, and what, prb, if that's the case - do you think Hillary was planning on doing there?

matthew330 · 11-29-2003, 10:50 PM

Perhaps out a line, but i don't care....I should have cared because it got me edited and warned for insulting another member

Ustwo · 11-30-2003, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
Bush deserves some credit for the trip, but don't give him too much. This is the guy who ran away from his Guard duty, flew away from Washington D.C. on 9/11, and who only made it to Ground Zero after Bill Clinton beat him to the site. How much you wanna bet this trip got booked after Karl Rove found out Hillary was making her own trip to Iraq?

Ummm I know its been said, but I'm still in awe you even posted it.

You do know that its a 'good thing' for the president to be protected? I'd have been rather pissed if I found out he stayed in a target area. Also this might shock you but Billy isn't the president anymore. He doesn't have important things to do. I'd much rather my president be working on finding out what exactly happened then going for a photo-op in a time of extreme crisis. If I remember the rescue workers reaction to him, they were very happy to see him when he showed up, unlike say Hillary who was booed on stage

Sparhawk · 11-30-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ratman
GWB had the opportunity to go to a war zone in Vietnam, which he avoided by joining the ANG, which service he further avoided by going AWOL. I still think he has little shriveled raisins where his brass balls should be.

Edit- For what it's worth, when GWB was commissioned as an officer in the Air Guard, he swore an oath which, in my opinion, he had no intention of honoring. When I joined the army, when my friends joined the army, when my brother joined the army, we all swore the same oath.

I was on active duty during Panama, Grenada, and Iraq I. I was not required in combat zones because my MI MOS and languages weren't pertinent to those conflicts. However, I had friends that were Hispanic and Spanish linguists that went into Panamanian prisons, as prisoners, to get intel. Spending months in a South American prison to serve their country. THAT is brass balls.

GHWB had a huge pair. He flew into the hell of combat, got shot down, and survived. He upheld the oath he took. Every serviceman and woman who has taken that oath, and upheld that oath, deserves our respect. My brother and friends, your family and friends, that are serving in Iraq deserve our respect. Most of them have spent thousands of times more hours in a combat zone than the CIC has spent in ANY combat zone. And all to uphold the oath they took when they joined the service. The same oath that GWB took when he was commissioned, the oath that, in my opinion, he had no intention to honor.

GWB took a similar oath again when he became President and CIC. But when it comes right down to it, I don't believe that he would put his life on the line for this country, or it's citizens, or it's glorious constitution. Not any more than he did during Vietnam. He must have gone through cases of Depends during this daring and dangerous campaign trip to Baghdad. After all, we all know that those absentee votes CAN make all the difference.

Hooah.

Clinton went to Kosovo Christmas of 99. George I went to either Saudi or Kuwait Christmas of 91. So definitely not unprecedented. In fact, I would have been surprised if George II hadn't gone.

Phaenx · 11-30-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lordjeebus
There is no statute of limitations for desertion, but the military loses its jurisdiction when the individual is discharged, as Bush was.

According to http://www.buzzflash.com/mailbag/2002/10/29.html

Questions still remain, of course. Why did the military let him skip town without punishment? Why are those who criticized Clinton for draft-dodging so willing to defend Bush?

Questions for another thread -- perhaps one that already exists.

Honorably Discharged by the way.

Bush didn't really skip town, he informed his direct superiors who approved his leave (to go help a family friend campaign), but was later denied by higher ups. Course this was later on, and he did return to finish his service.

This subject isn't brought up very often, probably because everytime a liberal does about 90 conservatives remind them their hero Mr. Clinton just flat out ran to Canada.

james t kirk · 11-30-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
Honorably Discharged by the way.

This subject isn't brought up very often, probably because everytime a liberal does about 90 conservatives remind them their hero Mr. Clinton just flat out ran to Canada.

As far as i am aware, Clinton never ran to Canada.

He was against the Vietnam War (so were a lot of people) and spoke out against it while a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford (no small feat, like to see Duhh-ba-you be able to say that.)

reconmike · 11-30-2003, 02:54 PM

A letter from a Col. on slick willies draft board,

As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:
Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

"W" might have been in the national guard here, but the slick one lied, begged, and probably blew people just to stay out of the war.

Superbelt · 12-01-2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
As far as Bush senior and Clinton, well Bush Sr went to Saudi Arabia right before the first gulf war and I seem to recall Clinton going somewhere as well. Certainly these are not quite equivalent to going to a full on combat zone. As pointed out, Nixon was the last Pres to do the same.

You're partially right!

Like Sparhawk said, Clinton was in Kosovo.
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/Eur...999-11-23c.html
He was there on Thanksgiving. And he was able to travel into a war zone only five months after the US-arranged coalition secured the liberation of Kosovo. He was milling about with the troops. Sure he had his security, but he was out in public. And did not spend all his time in the middle of a fortified military base.

Quote:

Originally posted by supersteph2747
Kudos to Bush! He has shown more support for our troops in Iraq then our last president (whose name I refrain from mentioning, since he is an ASSHOLE) EVER showed for ANY of our military. I can't wait to see what's going to happen next term after he beats out those Dems!

You're wrong!

Anyway:
I think this little covert rendevous shoots to shit the idea that we are making any progress over there. November was the deadliest month in this war so far. Maybe if it wasn't so dangerous he would have held some photo-ops in front of some of these famous schools he has been building over there.......

prb · 12-01-2003, 07:15 AM

onetime2 and Ustwo: So it was too risky for Bush to go to D.C. on 9/11 or to Ground Zero for several days thereafter. And besides, he has more important matters to deal with as POTUS than taking chances for personal political gain.

Uhh, and how is his trip to Iraq different?

Again, I give him credit for travelling to Iraq, just not alot. He's had opportunities before to show his courage and didn't. Courage after long reflection is carefully calculated risk.

Ustwo · 12-01-2003, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
onetime2 and Ustwo: So it was too risky for Bush to go to D.C. on 9/11 or to Ground Zero for several days thereafter. And besides, he has more important matters to deal with as POTUS than taking chances for personal political gain.

Uhh, and how is his trip to Iraq different?

Again, I give him credit for travelling to Iraq, just not alot. He's had opportunities before to show his courage and didn't. Courage after long reflection is carefully calculated risk.

Ummm again, what is it you want?

Him going to ground zero to early would have been REPREHENSIBLE. It would have been nothing but a photo op and would have gotten in the way of the real work. What would he have learned at GZ that he didn't already know? Nothing. What he would have done is slowed down the real work of trying to rescue any survivors. To even suggest that he should have gone earlier is nothing but Bush bashing for the sake of Bush bashing.

The Iraq visit was done for the morale of the troops and the American people. It made people feel GOOD, it was good for troop morale, it was good for families sitting at home with loved ones in harms way, it was just 'a good thing to do' (tm). When the biggest gripe the left has is that he lied to the press so he could sneak out, you know it must have been the right move. Sure he got good PR for it, but Bush is NOT a PR seeker. He did a lot of things after the Sept 11th attacks with the families of victims in which no cameras were allowed. I think if there is one thing both the left and right should be able to agree on is that Bush is not a camera hound.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-01-2003, 10:12 AM

But Ustwo blah blah blah Karl Rove blah blah blah, Dick Cheney blah blah blah evil white men.

onetime2 · 12-01-2003, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
onetime2 and Ustwo: So it was too risky for Bush to go to D.C. on 9/11 or to Ground Zero for several days thereafter. And besides, he has more important matters to deal with as POTUS than taking chances for personal political gain.

Uhh, and how is his trip to Iraq different?

Again, I give him credit for travelling to Iraq, just not alot. He's had opportunities before to show his courage and didn't. Courage after long reflection is carefully calculated risk.

There was (or was thought to be) a direct threat against the Pres on 9/11. Given that his trip to Iraq was not publicized there was no direct imminent threat in that trip.

His trip to Iraq was a damned big morale booster just as it was when he went to ground zero. Do you know exactly what he did in the days after 9/11 and before going to ground zero? No. How can you possibly make a comparison of the priorities without knowing what you're comparing it to? Don't bother answering as it's just a pot shot at the Pres with no understanding of the facts.

Sparhawk · 12-01-2003, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
There was (or was thought to be) a direct threat against the Pres on 9/11. Given that his trip to Iraq was not publicized there was no direct imminent threat in that trip.

His trip to Iraq was a damned big morale booster just as it was when he went to ground zero. Do you know exactly what he did in the days after 9/11 and before going to ground zero? No. How can you possibly make a comparison of the priorities without knowing what you're comparing it to? Don't bother answering as it's just a pot shot at the Pres with no understanding of the facts.

No one here actually knows what he did. In the meantime, that makes his opinion just as valid as your opinion.

Conclamo Ludus · 12-01-2003, 12:01 PM

I'm glad Bush went to Iraq. I think it was entirely appropriate. Is it PR? Sure. Is it a morale booster? Of course. Its both. I'm glad he did it and I believe it to be sincere. Sincerely campaigning and sincerely spending some time with the people who are making the ultimate sacrifice for us.

onetime2 · 12-01-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
No one here actually knows what he did. In the meantime, that makes his opinion just as valid as your opinion.

Did I say his opinion doesn't count? Nope. But the assertion that his priorities were not in order assumes that what he did was less important than going to Ground Zero. To think that paying tribute at Ground Zero trumps running the country after it was just attacked is naive.

sailor · 12-01-2003, 07:05 PM

You know, I dont like Bush at all, but that took serious balls. Despite his shortcomings, he does support the troops, and I respect that.

Unfortunately, Im not sure how much of that was genuine and how much of it was a PR stunt.

tricks · 12-01-2003, 10:13 PM

How long do you think he was in Air Force One before they told him where he was sneaking into in the middle of the night?

reconmike · 12-02-2003, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tricks
How long do you think he was in Air Force One before they told him where he was sneaking into in the middle of the night?

You are kidding right?

He is the president, I believe it was his decision to go or not.
You cant believe that they would put him on a plane fly him around and then say "oh yeah mr. president we are going to Baghdad so you can visit the troops"

supersteph2747 · 12-02-2003, 09:52 PM

OK, yes his going to Iraq was a PR move and a morale boost for the troops over there. HOWEVER, by going there, Bush made a statement to our country and the rest of the world: We are going to see this one through! As Peter Brooks wrote "The president's lead-from-the-front visit was clearly a lot more than a photo op as some have suggested. True, it was symbolic - but some symbols, like the American flag, have powerful, hopeful, enduring meanings. " I couldn't have said it better myself!

Phaenx · 12-03-2003, 12:26 AM

It's not nessecarily a PR move because it makes him look good. Bush is a nice guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he just wanted to do something nice for our boys. In all liklihood, he probably went over there for a bunch of different reasons, including both pr and personal feelings.

I don't think anyone will ever know for sure is what I'm getting at, but this is kind of a trivial thing to be arguing about. Glad I don't have any plans to run for President, I'd go crazy if someone called me a nazi everytime I did something nice.

Unknown Poster · 12-03-2003, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
Bush deserves some credit for the trip, but don't give him too much. This is the guy who ran away from his Guard duty, flew away from Washington D.C. on 9/11, and who only made it to Ground Zero after Bill Clinton beat him to the site. How much you wanna bet this trip got booked after Karl Rove found out Hillary was making her own trip to Iraq?

2 things.

1)Bush was in Florida on 9/11, so he didn't run away from D.C.

2)Clinton LIVES in New York, and he has nothing to do these days.

Superbelt · 12-03-2003, 09:06 AM

Clinton wasn't in NY when it happened. He was in Australia.

Unknown Poster · 12-03-2003, 09:27 AM

I stand corrected.

silent_jay · 12-03-2003, 07:21 PM

this was another stunt to gather support much like the whole top gun landing onthe aircraft carrier. only this time they forgot the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED sign. what mission by the way?

Superbelt · 12-03-2003, 10:09 PM

Did someone say publicity stunt?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

President Bush holds a platter at Baghdad airport on
Thanksgiving. The turkey had been primped to adorn
the buffet line, while the 600 soldiers were served
from steam trays. (Pablo Martinez Monsivais -- AP)

The Bird Was Perfect But Not For Dinner
In Iraq Picture, Bush Is Holding the Centerpiece

In the most widely published image from his Thanksgiving day trip to Baghdad, the beaming president is wearing an Army workout jacket and surrounded by soldiers as he cradles a huge platter laden with a golden-brown turkey.

The bird is so perfect it looks as if it came from a food magazine, with bunches of grapes and other trimmings completing a Norman Rockwell image that evokes bounty and security in one of the most dangerous parts of the world.

But as a small sign of the many ways the White House maximized the impact of the 21/2-hour stop at the Baghdad airport, administration officials said yesterday that Bush picked up a decoration, not a serving plate......

_____
Not a big deal or anything. Just something... typical, of this administration.

onetime2 · 12-04-2003, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt

_____
Not a big deal or anything. Just something... typical, of this administration.

Not trying to start an argument here, but if it's not a big deal, then why bother pointing it out? It comes across as just another attempted dig at Bush that has no real substance.

Now, if he tried to cut it and serve it to the troops that might be a fun topic to discuss.

Superbelt · 12-04-2003, 08:26 AM

I point it out to show that he is style over substance. He's a walking soundbite.

Like I said in another topic. Turkey is another thing to see him for a fraud.

I could feel some respect for him if he actually put on a hairnet and served the troops that he stationed in Iraq.
It's symbolic. But there's a certain aspect of humility I think he has never learned in his life.

silent_jay · 12-04-2003, 06:07 PM

why did bush not go to Afghanistan to visit the troops that are still dying in that lawless nation? maybe because the word Afghanistan vanished from his vocabulary when the Northern Alliance marched on Kandahar. just a thought.

Ustwo · 12-04-2003, 07:38 PM

I love how liberals take a photo that was about 4 seconds out of his visit and try to turn it into a symbol.

Try watching the tape of his visit.

james t kirk · 12-04-2003, 08:19 PM

You know, i had a thought (only one of a few today)

But if Shrub was sincere in his going to Iraq to bolster morale, and it was all done for the guys in uniform....

Why take several camera crews along with you????

Seriously, if he wanted to show his support for the armed forces, why couldn't he just go on his own, sit down for dinner with the boys without cameras and then say ciao.

Nope, he hauls along the cameras, it's shown on CNN. They even go so stupid as to tell you about the SUV shrub drove out of his ranch.

Give me a fucking break.

And Hillary Clinton is no better, she did the same fucking thing.

It's all bullshit and staged for the cameras.

silent_jay · 12-04-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
You know, i had a thought (only one of a few today)

But if Shrub was sincere in his going to Iraq to bolster morale, and it was all done for the guys in uniform....

Why take several camera crews along with you????

Seriously, if he wanted to show his support for the armed forces, why couldn't he just go on his own, sit down for dinner with the boys without cameras and then say ciao.

Nope, he hauls along the cameras, it's shown on CNN. They even go so stupid as to tell you about the SUV shrub drove out of his ranch.

Give me a fucking break.

And Hillary Clinton is no better, she did the same fucking thing.

It's all bullshit and staged for the cameras.

exactly what he should have done. i have seen the tape ustwo and like most things during this war it was done in the most tasteless manner possible, hillary is just as bad, the troops seemed to be happy but the question is was their reaction staged, kinda like a sitcom was there a big applause or cheers sign above that we couldn't see. the way things have been going it would not surprise me.

silent_jay · 12-04-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk

Seriously, if he wanted to show his support for the armed forces, why couldn't he just go on his own, sit down for dinner with the boys without cameras and then say ciao.

And Hillary Clinton is no better, she did the same fucking thing.

It's all bullshit and staged for the cameras.

exactly what he should have done. i have seen the tape ustwo and like most things during this war it was done in the most tasteless manner possible, hillary is just as bad, the troops seemed to be happy but the question is was their reaction staged, kinda like a sitcom was there a big applause or cheers sign above that we couldn't see. the way things have been going it would not surprise me.

Phaenx · 12-04-2003, 09:59 PM

The press was told he would be in Texas that day, it was a big secret. I don't know how you get that it was staged for cameras guy.

Hillary told people where she was going though. =).

silent_jay · 12-04-2003, 10:14 PM

it was staged because he had god knows how many camera crews with him. the press on air force one knew where they were going because it was like the old family vacation thing if they leaked it the plane would be turned around and they would go home. no turkey for george.

onetime2 · 12-05-2003, 05:20 AM

Come on people, get serious. He shouldn't have brought cameras along? Do you hate him or politicians in general so much that you will bitch about anything?

There were what 600 soldiers who actually got to see him in person? By taping it, the footage gets shared with the others that couldn't be there, it gets shared with the rest of the troops around the world who see that he cares enough to go visit them, and it gets shown to the rest of the American people who needed a morale boost after all the tragedy wrought by the killings of our soldiers in both Afghanistan and Iraq (and everyewhere else that soldiers are dying whether in training or in combat).

I guess by your reasoning, the President shouldn't make speeches either since it's probably just about him grandstanding. Perhaps a little memo out to everyone is the way to go.

james t kirk · 12-05-2003, 12:01 PM

The question was "was bush's baghdad visit genuine, or done for the cameras in order to aid his election campaign.

If it was that he genuinely wanted to show support for the troops, then why the need for the camera crews and forwarding it to the media rather instantaneously.

Truth be told, it was a cool gesture, but it had a more self serving motive as well.

He would have garnered more respect and less cynicism if he told the camera crews no filming.

matthew330 · 12-05-2003, 12:13 PM

more than a week later and i have only seen it or heard mention of it on the news 3 times....once when my alarm went off thanksgiving morning....once driving to my uncles thanksgiving afternoon - and once when my uncle was showing me his movie theater (literally), when i got to is house (that thing is bad ass....two 3 seater couches with massage and stadium seating.....70 some odd inch flat screen TV, kick ass soundsystem, and lights fade to pitch black when the movie starts) - perfect setting to watch my boy Bush (my uncle had to drop everything and leave the room when he came on)

matthew330 · 12-05-2003, 12:14 PM

oh yeah - being that their really hasn't been that much publicity, how come everyone's so convinced it was a publicity stunt

onetime2 · 12-05-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
The question was "was bush's baghdad visit genuine, or done for the cameras in order to aid his election campaign.

If it was that he genuinely wanted to show support for the troops, then why the need for the camera crews and forwarding it to the media rather instantaneously.

Truth be told, it was a cool gesture, but it had a more self serving motive as well.

He would have garnered more respect and less cynicism if he told the camera crews no filming.

Umm, I think I covered why the need for cameras.

Ustwo · 12-05-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
The question was "was bush's baghdad visit genuine, or done for the cameras in order to aid his election campaign.

If it was that he genuinely wanted to show support for the troops, then why the need for the camera crews and forwarding it to the media rather instantaneously.

Truth be told, it was a cool gesture, but it had a more self serving motive as well.

He would have garnered more respect and less cynicism if he told the camera crews no filming.

Yes and no.

It would have been interesting if he had no cameras (though I'm sure you would have people claiming he never went), but it would have been a waste in some ways. The visit was for more then just the 600 soldiers on hand.

People are GLAD he went and were happy to see him there from across the country. I'm sure it made some people choke on their bile, but my family had it on TV and thought it was great. It was a masterful move for morale and politically. The only people complaining are those who would NEVER vote for him anyways and they are complaining I think because they know how strongly symbolic it was.

11-29-2003, 10:50 PM	#42 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Perhaps out a line, but i don't care....I should have cared because it got me edited and warned for insulting another member Last edited by redravin40; 11-30-2003 at 01:30 AM..

11-30-2003, 02:54 PM	#47 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	A letter from a Col. on slick willies draft board, As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93 September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record: Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program: There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States. The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft, "Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record. Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army. The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification. The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces. I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue. Eugene Holmes Colonel, U.S.A., Ret. September 1992 "W" might have been in the national guard here, but the slick one lied, begged, and probably blew people just to stay out of the war. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

12-01-2003, 10:12 AM	#51 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	But Ustwo blah blah blah Karl Rove blah blah blah, Dick Cheney blah blah blah evil white men. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-01-2003, 12:01 PM	#54 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I'm glad Bush went to Iraq. I think it was entirely appropriate. Is it PR? Sure. Is it a morale booster? Of course. Its both. I'm glad he did it and I believe it to be sincere. Sincerely campaigning and sincerely spending some time with the people who are making the ultimate sacrifice for us. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

12-01-2003, 07:05 PM	#56 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	You know, I dont like Bush at all, but that took serious balls. Despite his shortcomings, he does support the troops, and I respect that. Unfortunately, Im not sure how much of that was genuine and how much of it was a PR stunt. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato Last edited by sailor; 12-01-2003 at 07:09 PM..

11-29-2003, 10:35 PM	#41 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	yeah, and what, prb, if that's the case - do you think Hillary was planning on doing there?

12-01-2003, 07:15 AM	#49 (permalink)
prb Psycho	onetime2 and Ustwo: So it was too risky for Bush to go to D.C. on 9/11 or to Ground Zero for several days thereafter. And besides, he has more important matters to deal with as POTUS than taking chances for personal political gain. Uhh, and how is his trip to Iraq different? Again, I give him credit for travelling to Iraq, just not alot. He's had opportunities before to show his courage and didn't. Courage after long reflection is carefully calculated risk.

12-01-2003, 10:13 PM	#57 (permalink)
tricks Crazy	How long do you think he was in Air Force One before they told him where he was sneaking into in the middle of the night? __________________ People Are Stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either because they want it to be true or because they fear that it is.

12-02-2003, 09:52 PM	#59 (permalink)
supersteph2747 Upright Location: Tempe, AZ	OK, yes his going to Iraq was a PR move and a morale boost for the troops over there. HOWEVER, by going there, Bush made a statement to our country and the rest of the world: We are going to see this one through! As Peter Brooks wrote "The president's lead-from-the-front visit was clearly a lot more than a photo op as some have suggested. True, it was symbolic - but some symbols, like the American flag, have powerful, hopeful, enduring meanings. " I couldn't have said it better myself! __________________ War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

12-03-2003, 12:26 AM	#60 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	It's not nessecarily a PR move because it makes him look good. Bush is a nice guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he just wanted to do something nice for our boys. In all liklihood, he probably went over there for a bunch of different reasons, including both pr and personal feelings. I don't think anyone will ever know for sure is what I'm getting at, but this is kind of a trivial thing to be arguing about. Glad I don't have any plans to run for President, I'd go crazy if someone called me a nazi everytime I did something nice. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-03-2003, 09:06 AM	#62 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Clinton wasn't in NY when it happened. He was in Australia.

12-03-2003, 09:27 AM	#63 (permalink)
Unknown Poster Insane	I stand corrected.

12-03-2003, 07:21 PM	#64 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	this was another stunt to gather support much like the whole top gun landing onthe aircraft carrier. only this time they forgot the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED sign. what mission by the way? __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-03-2003, 10:09 PM	#65 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Did someone say publicity stunt? http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer President Bush holds a platter at Baghdad airport on Thanksgiving. The turkey had been primped to adorn the buffet line, while the 600 soldiers were served from steam trays. (Pablo Martinez Monsivais -- AP) The Bird Was Perfect But Not For Dinner In Iraq Picture, Bush Is Holding the Centerpiece In the most widely published image from his Thanksgiving day trip to Baghdad, the beaming president is wearing an Army workout jacket and surrounded by soldiers as he cradles a huge platter laden with a golden-brown turkey. The bird is so perfect it looks as if it came from a food magazine, with bunches of grapes and other trimmings completing a Norman Rockwell image that evokes bounty and security in one of the most dangerous parts of the world. But as a small sign of the many ways the White House maximized the impact of the 21/2-hour stop at the Baghdad airport, administration officials said yesterday that Bush picked up a decoration, not a serving plate...... _____ Not a big deal or anything. Just something... typical, of this administration.

12-04-2003, 08:26 AM	#67 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I point it out to show that he is style over substance. He's a walking soundbite. Like I said in another topic. Turkey is another thing to see him for a fraud. I could feel some respect for him if he actually put on a hairnet and served the troops that he stationed in Iraq. It's symbolic. But there's a certain aspect of humility I think he has never learned in his life.

12-04-2003, 06:07 PM	#68 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	why did bush not go to Afghanistan to visit the troops that are still dying in that lawless nation? maybe because the word Afghanistan vanished from his vocabulary when the Northern Alliance marched on Kandahar. just a thought. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-04-2003, 07:38 PM	#69 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I love how liberals take a photo that was about 4 seconds out of his visit and try to turn it into a symbol. Try watching the tape of his visit. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-04-2003, 08:19 PM	#70 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	You know, i had a thought (only one of a few today) But if Shrub was sincere in his going to Iraq to bolster morale, and it was all done for the guys in uniform.... Why take several camera crews along with you???? Seriously, if he wanted to show his support for the armed forces, why couldn't he just go on his own, sit down for dinner with the boys without cameras and then say ciao. Nope, he hauls along the cameras, it's shown on CNN. They even go so stupid as to tell you about the SUV shrub drove out of his ranch. Give me a fucking break. And Hillary Clinton is no better, she did the same fucking thing. It's all bullshit and staged for the cameras.

12-04-2003, 09:59 PM	#73 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	The press was told he would be in Texas that day, it was a big secret. I don't know how you get that it was staged for cameras guy. Hillary told people where she was going though. =). __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-04-2003, 10:14 PM	#74 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	it was staged because he had god knows how many camera crews with him. the press on air force one knew where they were going because it was like the old family vacation thing if they leaked it the plane would be turned around and they would go home. no turkey for george. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-05-2003, 05:20 AM	#75 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Come on people, get serious. He shouldn't have brought cameras along? Do you hate him or politicians in general so much that you will bitch about anything? There were what 600 soldiers who actually got to see him in person? By taping it, the footage gets shared with the others that couldn't be there, it gets shared with the rest of the troops around the world who see that he cares enough to go visit them, and it gets shown to the rest of the American people who needed a morale boost after all the tragedy wrought by the killings of our soldiers in both Afghanistan and Iraq (and everyewhere else that soldiers are dying whether in training or in combat). I guess by your reasoning, the President shouldn't make speeches either since it's probably just about him grandstanding. Perhaps a little memo out to everyone is the way to go. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

12-05-2003, 12:01 PM	#76 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	The question was "was bush's baghdad visit genuine, or done for the cameras in order to aid his election campaign. If it was that he genuinely wanted to show support for the troops, then why the need for the camera crews and forwarding it to the media rather instantaneously. Truth be told, it was a cool gesture, but it had a more self serving motive as well. He would have garnered more respect and less cynicism if he told the camera crews no filming.

12-05-2003, 12:13 PM	#77 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	more than a week later and i have only seen it or heard mention of it on the news 3 times....once when my alarm went off thanksgiving morning....once driving to my uncles thanksgiving afternoon - and once when my uncle was showing me his movie theater (literally), when i got to is house (that thing is bad ass....two 3 seater couches with massage and stadium seating.....70 some odd inch flat screen TV, kick ass soundsystem, and lights fade to pitch black when the movie starts) - perfect setting to watch my boy Bush (my uncle had to drop everything and leave the room when he came on)

12-05-2003, 12:14 PM	#78 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	oh yeah - being that their really hasn't been that much publicity, how come everyone's so convinced it was a publicity stunt