Isreal is the greatest threat to world peace; US 2nd. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Dude · 11-03-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

BRUSSELS (AFP) - The European Union (news - web sites) scrambled to contain the fallout from a public opinion poll that -- to Israel's fury -- labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.

The United States was just behind Israel in the global danger league, in joint second place with North Korea (news - web sites) and Iran, according to the "Eurobarometer" poll requested by the European Commission (news - web sites).

The results were part of a survey last month on Europeans' attitudes in the aftermath of the Iraq (news - web sites) war, which also found that more than two-thirds of EU citizens think that the US-led war was wrong.

The Israeli embassy in Brussels voiced outrage at the findings, which said that 59 percent of Europeans see Israel as a threat to world peace.

"Europeans seem blind to Israeli victims and suffering. Instead, they have put the Jewish state below the level of the worst pariah state and terror organizations," it said in a statement.

"We are not only sad but outraged. Not at European citizens, but at those who are responsible for forming public opinion," the embassy added.

"Israel's desperate struggle for peace and security for its people has been distorted beyond recognition in often one-sided and emotionally charged media coverage."

The poll had already prompted angry reactions after details were leaked by the Spanish daily El Pais last week.

The Israeli ambassador to Italy -- which currently holds the EU presidency -- told the daily Il Messagero Monday that the poll could have significant diplomatic consequences.

"It seems to me that the only aim of this poll was to denigrate Israel at a very delicate time, and I think it will it much more difficult for Europe to fulfill its ambition to play a part in the peace process," said Ehud Gol.

The EU's Italian presidency tried to play down the results, insisting they did not reflect the official EU position.

"The result of the survey, based on an ambiguous question, does not reflect the position of the European Union which has been voiced on numerous occasions," Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said in a statement.

"The EU is all the more annoyed since it is fully aware that the Israeli population is hit hard by terrorism," it said, criticising the "false signal" that the survey sent out.

According to the Eurobarometer poll, based on interviews with 500 people in each of the 15 EU states, some 59 percent of Europeans replied "yes" when asked whether or not Israel presents a threat to peace in the world.

A total of 53 percent said Iran, North Korea and the United States pose a threat, followed by 52 percent for Iraq, 50 percent for Afghanistan (news - web sites) and 48 percent for Pakistan.

Countries lower down the list included Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Russia and Somalia. The EU itself was described as a threat by eight percent of respondents.

The EU survey was presented in the form of a list of 15 countries, from which some 7,515 respondents were asked to say which ones they thought pose a threat to world peace.

Commission spokesman Gerassimos Thomas was repeatedly asked why the Palestinian territories were not included, while for example the survey asked Europeans about the threat from Somalia. "It is not a country," he replied when pressed over the Palestinians.

The European Commission said Israel's anger was "legitimate" but refused to get drawn into whether the poll findings were valid.

"I think the (Israeli) reaction was a very legitimate reaction," the spokesman for the EU's executive arm told reporters.

But he added: "It is not our task to interpret each and every survey. We don't place excessive emphasis on one poll result."

LINK

damn...those isrealis beat us!

US was #1 before this and we have slipped! we must start more wars!

--------

on a serious note, i tend to agree that US & Isreal are very aggressive nations.

Isreali is warning of consequences cuz of what the europeans think? that's really funny.

Quote:

"We are not only sad but outraged. Not at European citizens, but at those who are responsible for forming public opinion," the embassy added.

I really did not get what this was supposed to mean.

JumpinJesus · 11-03-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude

I really did not get what this was supposed to mean.

I think it's their way of saying they're pissed but not wanting to piss anyone off.

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-03-2003, 03:51 PM

I think this just shows that they are pissy, bitter, and misinformed.

eple · 11-03-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Commission spokesman Gerassimos Thomas was repeatedly asked why the Palestinian territories were not included, while for example the survey asked Europeans about the threat from Somalia. "It is not a country," he replied

Hehe, pwned. Guess denying the Palestinians the right to their homeland might backfire on ya every now and then eh?

Ustwo · 11-03-2003, 04:02 PM

These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

eple · 11-03-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

pocon1 · 11-03-2003, 04:23 PM

If world peace is defined by control by dictators and despots, then I guess the U.S. deserves to be at the top of the list of countries that will damage world peace. We have always been a country in support of democracy, and we will step in and fight for freedom when necessary. And now President JFK has something to say:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, That we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the Survival and success of liberty."
-- John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address Washington, D.C. January 20, 1961

Loui · 11-03-2003, 04:34 PM

Just because the US is bankrolling Israel doesnt mean it's a good place.

Nad Adam · 11-03-2003, 04:56 PM

I think that one of the reasons that the US is ranked as #2 on this list is that they start a whole lot of wars all over the globe. Now some might say that it is to preserve peace but war is still war. War isn't peace.
And I belive that some unstable territories in the world needs to stabilize themselves and the best thing we can do is to leave them alone. A couple of examples of selfstabilizing territories are the former Soviet Union and present day China.

SLM3 · 11-03-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

Nicely put, eple.

SLM3

Nefir · 11-03-2003, 05:09 PM

Thats just sad. But they are in Europe, so I can't really blame them for being so grotesquely misinformed. Its the Americans I am worried about. I keep hearing from native-born Americans about how much they hate America, and are embarassed to be American, and think its an oppressive and hostile nation... well, I got news for ya, "Yank". You have to be pretty damn spoiled to think that America and Israel are the bad guys.

I was born in Soviet Russia. And in Soviet Russia, .. weh, I'm not doing the Smirnoff thing anymore. Its funny how people who have lived all their lives in the friendly, generous, and protective yolk of American society have the nerve to not only take their lives for granted, but also dump the country that made it all possible into the same category as assorted dictators.

America is the only nation in the world with the guts to get out there and do things. Sure, some times mistakes are made instead of plans, but if the only alternative is to sit on our fattening asses and do nothing, then I'd rather move to Australia. At least the view is nicer. But thats not how America works. It is a leader, not a follower. America makes things happen - yes, some times it disturbs those comfortable holes in the sand people buried their heads into, and it makes them upset, but those people have never seen the alternative.

If it wasn't for America, billions of people, myself included, would be DEAD or OPPRESSED. I owe my life and my freedom to this country, and I am not going to let people talk trash about one of the few (and the strongest) bastions of democracy in the world without putting them through some hands-on case studies in oppression. Off to the gulag with yas

Liquor Dealer · 11-03-2003, 05:24 PM

What Nefir said! And I'll raise you whatever! If the rest of the damned world is so great why do some of you keep hangin' out here?

Macheath · 11-03-2003, 05:59 PM

I wish people would blame the old British Empire more for the whole middle eastern house of cards. Nobody has any sense of history. Bloody Poms.

filtherton · 11-03-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir
Thats just sad. But they are in Europe, so I can't really blame them for being so grotesquely misinformed. Its the Americans I am worried about. I keep hearing from native-born Americans about how much they hate America, and are embarassed to be American, and think its an oppressive and hostile nation... well, I got news for ya, "Yank". You have to be pretty damn spoiled to think that America and Israel are the bad guys.

I was born in Soviet Russia. And in Soviet Russia, .. weh, I'm not doing the Smirnoff thing anymore. Its funny how people who have lived all their lives in the friendly, generous, and protective yolk of American society have the nerve to not only take their lives for granted, but also dump the country that made it all possible into the same category as assorted dictators.

America is the only nation in the world with the guts to get out there and do things. Sure, some times mistakes are made instead of plans, but if the only alternative is to sit on our fattening asses and do nothing, then I'd rather move to Australia. At least the view is nicer. But thats not how America works. It is a leader, not a follower. America makes things happen - yes, some times it disturbs those comfortable holes in the sand people buried their heads into, and it makes them upset, but those people have never seen the alternative.

If it wasn't for America, billions of people, myself included, would be DEAD or OPPRESSED. I owe my life and my freedom to this country, and I am not going to let people talk trash about one of the few (and the strongest) bastions of democracy in the world without putting them through some hands-on case studies in oppression. Off to the gulag with yas

Surely some of your case studies would refer to america's treatment of native americans, perhaps our occupation of the phillipines, slavery, segregation, etc.
America is an aggressive country, and with a new policy of preemptive action seems to potentially be a huge threat to world peace. What is wrong with pointing that out? Maybe you misunderstand what it means to be american, but criticism and prodding is a vital part of any democracy. We even have a constitution protecting our rights to do so, apparently, our founding fathers thought that right was really important.

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
What Nefir said! And I'll raise you whatever! If the rest of the damned world is so great why do some of you keep hangin' out here?

So your saying america is perfect? No criticism is properly placed when refering to america? It's great that we have the right to be openly critical of america, but on the other hand, actually using that right makes someone a fool?

I'm sorry, but i can criticise america all i want and still want to live here. This "love it or leave it" attitude is sorely lacking of any kind of courage or thought. What if our founding fathers had just "left it"? Maybe we'd all be better of if MLK had just "left it".

Fuck that. I know america is a damn fine place to live, but you're really deluding yourself if you think it is above criticism and beyond improvement. If i want to denounce our foreign policy who the hell is anybody to tell me to leave?

2wolves · 11-03-2003, 06:13 PM

The leader of the current administration would appear to put the United States as the number one threat to peace:

"See, free nations are peaceful nations.
Free nations don't attack each other.
Free nations don't develop "weapons of mass destruction. " " -George W Bush

I do believe that even the most skepitical American conservative would have to allow that the United States first developed nuclear weapons and has more such devices on hand than any other nation on the planet.

Of couse W could just be wandering in the verbal thicket he so often gets lost in.

2Wolves

Nefir · 11-03-2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Surely some of your case studies would refer to america's treatment of native americans, perhaps our occupation of the phillipines, slavery, segregation, etc.

Slavery is a dark blotch on America's history, yes, but it has been abolished, which makes it invalid as an argument for problems America is blamed for *today*. Whether the damage will ever be repaired in the black community is a story for a whole other thread. The treatment of Native Americans goes back even further in time, and though atrocities have been committed by America's founding fathers, times have changed and we have evolved. I am not informed enough to speak about the Phillipines, so I won't.

Quote:

What is wrong with pointing that out?

Lets be serious here - we are on the net, two anonymous entities arguing about poltiics. If this is not an opinion thread, I don't know what is.
You can point out anything you like - thats the nature of free speech - but be prepared to offer alternatives instead of just bashing an action. Be prepared to argue why not doing anything would be better than doing what has been done. Otherwise it adds nothing and doesn't help get things fixed.

Quote:

criticism and prodding is a vital part of any democracy

There's a difference between constructive criticism, which gets things fixed, and the kind of criticism which breeds hate, resentment, and uncooperation. I didn't say criticism should be banned - I am stating my OWN opinion that I think that certain kinds of criticism are extremely ignorant and counterproductive.

pocon1 · 11-03-2003, 06:41 PM

So many of the problems that the U.S. has been involved in is because of our cold war with the Soviet Union. Korea? Communists supported by USSR. Vietnam? Communists supported by USSR. Afghanistan? We trained bin Laden and the Taliban to combat Soviets. Iran? We supported the Shah to push off Soviet influence. Israel? The only democracy in the region where oil is. Why did we fight Iraqis who had Soviet weapons? BTW, what the hell were the Cubans doing in Africa? oh yeah, pushing communism into Africa. Now the USSR is gone and broken up, but we are left holding the basket and looking like the bad guys because we keep trying to put out the fires. Some of the problems are ours, because we made bad decisions. Supporting dictators like Hussein and Noriega did not work out, even though we thought they were less of an evil than communism. But hey, we have tried to make a difference. No we cannot forget the past, but it is nice to look to the future and try to help people.

2wolves · 11-03-2003, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir
The treatment of Native Americans goes back even further in time, and though atrocities have been committed by America's founding fathers, times have changed and we have evolved.

How much info about existing 'oopsies' would you like? I try not to be a "one song Johnny" concerning this topic but even the most cursory investigation should revolt any sane individual.

2Wolves

Nefir · 11-03-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
How much info about existing 'oopsies' would you like? I try not to be a "one song Johnny" concerning this topic but even the most cursory investigation should revolt any sane individual.

2Wolves

I admit, I am not sure what you expect me to say in defense of America's "oopsies", because I am not defending them one bit. If we are going to be pulling out skeletons from everyone's closets, why not remember all the colonists who were exploited by the English, both in India and the Americas? The English have had WAY more history to commit all sorts of fun atrocities, but that has nothing to do with the problems at hand, and we are not bringing them up.

Why then, are mistakes of America's past (from which we have learned, too!) being used to judge the America of today?

2wolves · 11-03-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir
I admit, I am not sure what you expect me to say in defense of America's "oopsies", because I am not defending them one bit. If we are going to be pulling out skeletons from everyone's closets, why not remember all the colonists who were exploited by the English, both in India and the Americas? The English have had WAY more history to commit all sorts of fun atrocities, but that has nothing to do with the problems at hand, and we are not bringing them up.

Why then, are mistakes of America's past (from which we have learned, too!) being used to judge the America of today?

Past? Past?!?!?!?!? I'm talking about theft, dis-enfranchisement, and abuse going on yesterday, today and tomorrow.

And yes that means the second of November, 2003, the third of November 2003, and the fourth of November 2003.

2Wolves

Nefir · 11-03-2003, 07:40 PM

Woohoo! At this rate, you'll count up to my birthday

Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Maybe I'm just a dumb uninformed immigrant (and for all I know, I could very well be one), but you'll just have to do some convincing here, because, try as I might, I'm just not prepared to take your post as the unbiased word of truth.

2wolves · 11-03-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir
Woohoo! At this rate, you'll count up to my birthday

Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Maybe I'm just a dumb uninformed immigrant (and for all I know, I could very well be one), but you'll just have to do some convincing here, because, try as I might, I'm just not prepared to take your post as the unbiased word of truth.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=29040

Start there and if you'd care to google on your own and select media conduits of your choice the learning curve is rather brief.

2Wolves

Food Eater Lad · 11-03-2003, 08:58 PM

I would like to see how indian casinos do under investigation. Remember all those promises that INdian casinos will pay for schools, alchol abuse programs, wiping out poverty, and yet when I go back to New Mexico and visit friends on the res, i dont see any poverty, alchol abuse and a school every where I look. Why dont you talk about this 2wolves?

filtherton · 11-03-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
I would like to see how indian casinos do under investigation. Remember all those promises that INdian casinos will pay for schools, alchol abuse programs, wiping out poverty, and yet when I go back to New Mexico and visit friends on the res, i dont see any poverty, alchol abuse and a school every where I look. Why dont you talk about this 2wolves?

Perhaps you'll start a new thread and quote your above post into it, thereby making it relevant.

Quote:

Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Mabye someone could explain to me why america, with what is arguably the most effective military force on the planet, with a new policy of military action based only on percieved threat, and with an administration that apparently has no qualms with decieving the people who put it into power and telling the world to fuck off, isn't the number one threat to world peace?

Ustwo · 11-03-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

Sorry eple but I figure it was the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care.

dami³ · 11-03-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

hope whatever is troubling you will get resolved somehow

the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care.

filtherton · 11-03-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Sorry eple but I figure it was the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care.

I bet many euros are rethinking their perspectives now. Maybe next time you could just skip posting if all you are going to do is find a very poorly reflecting upon you way of saying that you don't care.
btw, who hasn't lost family fighting in european wars? That shits all in the past, the world has changed. Don't hold people accountable for their parent's problems. You didn't liberate them, your relatives liberated their relatives. Stop pretending like they owe you anything.

Peetster · 11-04-2003, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Don't hold people accountable for their parent's problems. You didn't liberate them, your relatives liberated their relatives.

God forbid you spend a moment in quiet contemplative thanks. It's ancient history, right? Sacrifices that happened 58 years ago are no less significant just because they occured more than twice as long ago as you were born. You will gain a sense of perspective as you get older.

eple · 11-04-2003, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peetster
God forbid you spend a moment in quiet contemplative thanks. It's ancient history, right? Sacrifices that happened 58 years ago are no less significant just because they occured more than twice as long ago as you were born. You will gain a sense of perspective as you get older.

So Europeans in general have no right of critizising Israel, as Jews were discriminated in European countries before? Excuse me, but that is bullshit. I already pointed out the vast majority of Europeans have no connections to the discriminatins and killing of jews at all. The very idea of discussing "Europeans" as a group is idiotic. There are no "Europeans"! There are English and Germans and French and so on. 500 million people are not sharing a common responsibility for the actions of one of the nations within the union.

You know what I learned when I was a kid? Two wrongs doesn't make a right. The state of Israel is discriminating Palestinians but they are in full right to do that because they were victims of German genocide right? The Germans united and tried to control Europe through WW2, but they were right in doing so, as they had been surpressed and discriminated against post WW1 right? History is of no use if we only use it to defend our wrongdoings, instead of using it to learn and evolve.

onetime2 · 11-04-2003, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

<edited> Deleted a joke which I mistook to be serious<edit>

apologies.

Shauk · 11-04-2003, 05:00 AM

Observing the past is the number one way to misinterpret the future.

I think american pride during times of an unjustifiable war is despicable.

This whole country only chooses to teach our history in a light that makes us out to be the wronged, who in the end, makes it all right.

My history books would show some scared stingy white boys trying to escape taxation. with money being the root of all evil. this leads to the idea of starting thier own government apart from any of the European influences.

bum bum bum.

well guess what, Native americans are already there, oops!, lets just kill them all!.

hrm, well that didn't work, guess we should buy them off with some land sometime down the line.

hey we need work done for us, lets get some of those N***ers from africa to do all of our shit work for us!

oops! they think they are people! isnt that cute!

Oh crap I gotta do my own work now? well I think my wife needs to clean my house and get in the kitchen and make me some food!

oops! what? you arent my slave?
you are people too?

damn, cant kill native americans, cant use blacks for labor, cant use women for labor? well damn, I still have my money im saving since I escaped those taxing bastards in europe.

la la la

oh look, gay people? they want rights too? what? they want to be married?

oh look, our government taxes me off my check when i earn money, oh look, im being taxed when i buy food, or whatever.

oh gee. this doesnt feel so free now does it?

---------------------------------

ok, every step of the way, this country that was supposedly about freedom... there has had to have been a massive fight, a huge uprising, a campaign of massive proportions to get anything done about it.

how long did it take to get equal rights for minorities? too long
how long did it take for women to get equal pay? not happening yet accoring to recent studies.
how long did it take for our pirate ship government to make up with the native americans? uh, what?

heh.

this countries actions make me sick. the rich get tax cuts, *money really is the root of all evil see? corporate america! GO!* the poor get fucked. and the only right we have, is to be able to bitch about it. a lot of good that does.

i suppose my post may be too inflammatory for some.

dont take it personal, this is how I FEEL.
this is why i plan on leaving the states.
I feel dirty being an american since our history AND out current affairs are nothing but dirty money making schemes and a fight for power, built on the backs of the gullible people who really did truely want freedom.

2wolves · 11-04-2003, 05:07 AM

Shauk,

All neatly tied up in the two word phrase "Manifest Destiny." ...or maybe three words "Gott Mit Uns" something like that.

"When the whites came to our country, we had the land and they had the Bible, now we have the Bible and they have the land."

2Wolves

eple · 11-04-2003, 06:16 AM

This post became obsolete, so I decide to use it to prevent drug use. Stay away from drugs kids, just say no.

rogue49 · 11-04-2003, 06:25 AM

Let's keep on topic,
and let's have a calm discussion

onetime2 · 11-04-2003, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
Heh, I did that as an obvious joke, I didn't think anybody could take it seriously. Later, as i learned some people were offended, I changed it. I apologize for any harm my humour migh have caused, and hope that we can debate in spite of a failed joke.

Ahh that's ok. I laughed at first thinking it was a joke but then, when I gave it some thought, wasn't sure if you were serious. Now I know you were joking and I'll never mention it again.

--Paul

Shauk · 11-04-2003, 06:38 AM

im chill. thanks for letting me make my own eyeballs pop out though

Nefir · 11-04-2003, 06:40 AM

<Neo>You didn't answer my question.</Neo>

I appreciate the plight of the Native Americans, but what has this to do with America being the #2 threat to world peace?

Quote:

My history books would show some scared stingy white boys trying to escape taxation. with money being the root of all evil. this leads to the idea of starting thier own government apart from any of the European influences.

And that makes us different from every other European nation... how? What you described is a result of business as usual in a world dominated by imperialistic policy. The world was a very different place. Have you considered WHY they were trying to escape taxatiton? Something about a little thing called representation, maybe, or the lack thereof?

The rest of that paints a painfully incomplete picture. Its funny how people can present half (less, in this case) of a story, make up the rest, and others start nodding in agreement.

Quote:

this is why i plan on leaving the states.
I feel dirty being an american

I respect your decision, and I hope you find equality, truth, justice, and the persuit of happiness where ever you choose to go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out

Seriously, I appreciate you sharing your feelings, but my question is still not answered. Lets try this another way... I'll just ask outright. Why do Americans feel America is a major threat to world peace? Note the emphasis. And before you bring up the fact that America gets into everyone's business, is too nosy, etc. consider this: would the world be better off if America stopped? Think real hard about that, because I think thats where the problem is... We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

eple · 11-04-2003, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir

I think thats where the problem is... We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

I also think that you guys believing this, is the problem.

filtherton · 11-04-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peetster
God forbid you spend a moment in quiet contemplative thanks. It's ancient history, right? Sacrifices that happened 58 years ago are no less significant just because they occured more than twice as long ago as you were born. You will gain a sense of perspective as you get older.

"As i get older"? Gee, maybe sometime nanna can make me some cookies and get me a glass of warm milk and i can curl up in your lap in front of the fireplace and you can tell me about the "big war".

Ancient history? Maybe not, but it is only slighlty less ancient than manifest destiny and slavery and yet i swear i've seen at least a few people argue that such things are irrelevant to the current state of affairs because they are in the past. The gist of it usually is, "You can't hold me accountable for what my parents did" Slave reparations? Well, i wasn't responsible so don't talk to me. Honoring treaties? I didn't sign any treaties.
I'm not responsible for the actions of my fathers.

You need to get some perspective if you think all of europe is obligated to not supply any input to current global affairs if their opinion happens to run contrary the the official u.s. line. That's nonsense. The whole "my daddy/grampa saved your daddy/grampa" argument is just like the "love it or leave it" argument. They are what people say when they really have nothing good to say.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nefir
Why do Americans feel America is a major threat to world peace?

Maybe someone could explain to me why america, with what is arguably the most effective military force on the planet, with a new policy of military action based only on percieved threat, and with an administration that apparently has no qualms with decieving the people who put it into power and telling the world to fuck off, isn't the NUMBER ONE threat to world peace?

Ustwo · 11-04-2003, 07:54 AM

The question is peace at what price?

We could let Israel be destroyed but at what price?

We could have let Iraq roam free, but at what price?

We could curl up into our shell, let the world deal with its problems and be loved by all, but at what price?

Europe may fear us, and I don't blame them. EVERY damn time some European nation has a major military advantage over another one, they went to war of conquest with some neighboring country/countries. I can't blame them for thinking we won't be any better then they have been.

11-03-2003, 03:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I think this just shows that they are pissy, bitter, and misinformed. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-03-2003, 04:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-03-2003, 04:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	I think that one of the reasons that the US is ranked as #2 on this list is that they start a whole lot of wars all over the globe. Now some might say that it is to preserve peace but war is still war. War isn't peace. And I belive that some unstable territories in the world needs to stabilize themselves and the best thing we can do is to leave them alone. A couple of examples of selfstabilizing territories are the former Soviet Union and present day China. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

11-03-2003, 05:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	Thats just sad. But they are in Europe, so I can't really blame them for being so grotesquely misinformed. Its the Americans I am worried about. I keep hearing from native-born Americans about how much they hate America, and are embarassed to be American, and think its an oppressive and hostile nation... well, I got news for ya, "Yank". You have to be pretty damn spoiled to think that America and Israel are the bad guys. I was born in Soviet Russia. And in Soviet Russia, .. weh, I'm not doing the Smirnoff thing anymore. Its funny how people who have lived all their lives in the friendly, generous, and protective yolk of American society have the nerve to not only take their lives for granted, but also dump the country that made it all possible into the same category as assorted dictators. America is the only nation in the world with the guts to get out there and do things. Sure, some times mistakes are made instead of plans, but if the only alternative is to sit on our fattening asses and do nothing, then I'd rather move to Australia. At least the view is nicer. But thats not how America works. It is a leader, not a follower. America makes things happen - yes, some times it disturbs those comfortable holes in the sand people buried their heads into, and it makes them upset, but those people have never seen the alternative. If it wasn't for America, billions of people, myself included, would be DEAD or OPPRESSED. I owe my life and my freedom to this country, and I am not going to let people talk trash about one of the few (and the strongest) bastions of democracy in the world without putting them through some hands-on case studies in oppression. Off to the gulag with yas __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance

11-03-2003, 05:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	What Nefir said! And I'll raise you whatever! If the rest of the damned world is so great why do some of you keep hangin' out here? __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

11-03-2003, 04:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	If world peace is defined by control by dictators and despots, then I guess the U.S. deserves to be at the top of the list of countries that will damage world peace. We have always been a country in support of democracy, and we will step in and fight for freedom when necessary. And now President JFK has something to say: Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, That we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the Survival and success of liberty." -- John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address Washington, D.C. January 20, 1961

11-03-2003, 04:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
Loui Upright	Just because the US is bankrolling Israel doesnt mean it's a good place.

11-03-2003, 05:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I wish people would blame the old British Empire more for the whole middle eastern house of cards. Nobody has any sense of history. Bloody Poms.

11-03-2003, 06:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	The leader of the current administration would appear to put the United States as the number one threat to peace: "See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop "weapons of mass destruction. " " -George W Bush I do believe that even the most skepitical American conservative would have to allow that the United States first developed nuclear weapons and has more such devices on hand than any other nation on the planet. Of couse W could just be wandering in the verbal thicket he so often gets lost in. 2Wolves

11-03-2003, 06:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	So many of the problems that the U.S. has been involved in is because of our cold war with the Soviet Union. Korea? Communists supported by USSR. Vietnam? Communists supported by USSR. Afghanistan? We trained bin Laden and the Taliban to combat Soviets. Iran? We supported the Shah to push off Soviet influence. Israel? The only democracy in the region where oil is. Why did we fight Iraqis who had Soviet weapons? BTW, what the hell were the Cubans doing in Africa? oh yeah, pushing communism into Africa. Now the USSR is gone and broken up, but we are left holding the basket and looking like the bad guys because we keep trying to put out the fires. Some of the problems are ours, because we made bad decisions. Supporting dictators like Hussein and Noriega did not work out, even though we thought they were less of an evil than communism. But hey, we have tried to make a difference. No we cannot forget the past, but it is nice to look to the future and try to help people.

11-03-2003, 07:40 PM	#21 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	Woohoo! At this rate, you'll count up to my birthday Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about. Maybe I'm just a dumb uninformed immigrant (and for all I know, I could very well be one), but you'll just have to do some convincing here, because, try as I might, I'm just not prepared to take your post as the unbiased word of truth. __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance

11-03-2003, 08:58 PM	#23 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	I would like to see how indian casinos do under investigation. Remember all those promises that INdian casinos will pay for schools, alchol abuse programs, wiping out poverty, and yet when I go back to New Mexico and visit friends on the res, i dont see any poverty, alchol abuse and a school every where I look. Why dont you talk about this 2wolves?

11-04-2003, 05:00 AM	#31 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	Observing the past is the number one way to misinterpret the future. I think american pride during times of an unjustifiable war is despicable. This whole country only chooses to teach our history in a light that makes us out to be the wronged, who in the end, makes it all right. My history books would show some scared stingy white boys trying to escape taxation. with money being the root of all evil. this leads to the idea of starting thier own government apart from any of the European influences. bum bum bum. well guess what, Native americans are already there, oops!, lets just kill them all!. hrm, well that didn't work, guess we should buy them off with some land sometime down the line. hey we need work done for us, lets get some of those N**ers from africa to do all of our shit work for us! oops! they think they are people! isnt that cute! Oh crap I gotta do my own work now? well I think my wife needs to clean my house and get in the kitchen and make me some food! oops! what? you arent my slave? you are people too? damn, cant kill native americans, cant use blacks for labor, cant use women for labor? well damn, I still have my money im saving since I escaped those taxing bastards in europe. la la la oh look, gay people? they want rights too? what? they want to be married? oh look, our government taxes me off my check when i earn money, oh look, im being taxed when i buy food, or whatever. oh gee. this doesnt feel so free now does it? --------------------------------- ok, every step of the way, this country that was supposedly about freedom... there has had to have been a massive fight, a huge uprising, a campaign of massive proportions to get anything done about it. how long did it take to get equal rights for minorities? too long how long did it take for women to get equal pay? not happening yet accoring to recent studies. how long did it take for our pirate ship government to make up with the native americans? uh, what? heh. this countries actions make me sick. the rich get tax cuts, money really is the root of all evil see? corporate america! GO!* the poor get fucked. and the only right we have, is to be able to bitch about it. a lot of good that does. i suppose my post may be too inflammatory for some. dont take it personal, this is how I FEEL. this is why i plan on leaving the states. I feel dirty being an american since our history AND out current affairs are nothing but dirty money making schemes and a fight for power, built on the backs of the gullible people who really did truely want freedom.

11-04-2003, 05:07 AM	#32 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Shauk, All neatly tied up in the two word phrase "Manifest Destiny." ...or maybe three words "Gott Mit Uns" something like that. "When the whites came to our country, we had the land and they had the Bible, now we have the Bible and they have the land." 2Wolves

11-04-2003, 06:16 AM	#33 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	This post became obsolete, so I decide to use it to prevent drug use. Stay away from drugs kids, just say no. Last edited by eple; 11-04-2003 at 06:41 AM..

11-04-2003, 06:25 AM	#34 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	Let's keep on topic, and let's have a calm discussion

11-04-2003, 06:38 AM	#36 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	im chill. thanks for letting me make my own eyeballs pop out though

11-04-2003, 07:54 AM	#40 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The question is peace at what price? We could let Israel be destroyed but at what price? We could have let Iraq roam free, but at what price? We could curl up into our shell, let the world deal with its problems and be loved by all, but at what price? Europe may fear us, and I don't blame them. EVERY damn time some European nation has a major military advantage over another one, they went to war of conquest with some neighboring country/countries. I can't blame them for thinking we won't be any better then they have been. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.