Food Eater Lad

http://www.economist.com/world/afric...ory_id=2173583

2wolves

And yet Halliburton is importing oil into Iraq. At inflated prices.

And you and I are paying for it.

2Wolves

Food Eater Lad

And yet quality of life goes up in Iraq, I am sorry you are only interested in Oil.

Zeld2.0

Do you come from Iraq? Have you visited Iraq?

Assumptions are one thing. Lets see what really goes on there before we say things we don't know about.

Food Eater Lad

UM you didnt see the Gallup poll? Or the fact that pay is rising, while inflation is constant? Or that 80% of the nation has democratically elected local leaders? That people are not dying on average of 100,000 per year?

I have never been to the moon, but I am relativly sure there is no oxygen there.

rogue49

It's going to take a LONG time before everything stablizes,
and there's going to be a lot of gyrations.

Keep trying, this is our best bet.
Yes, it's difficult and expensive...but rebuilding ANY country, past or present wasn't easy.
It's just with our modern-day media...everything is apparent and instantaneous.
One step at a time.

Food Eater Lad

To bad the gyrations are all in the positive side since Saddam is no longet the boss. Tikrit and Baghdad are the two hot spots, while the reat of the nation is pretty peaceful and so far, stable.

2wolves

This quagmire: http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/

2Wolves

Food Eater Lad

You know what is funny, Iraq is still safer for americans than East LA. Should we abandon East LA? And that money that it everyone is bitching about to pay for IRaq? Well with the 7.2% rise in American economy, we have 112 billion more than expected. So 84 billion will not be a burdon on us, as we will still have about 30 billion MORE than we thought, and that is just in THIS quater along.

So make a mountain out of this mole hill, its the only thing Democrates ( you know the people that VOTED and aproved and gave speaches for this war, then turned around and are trying, unsuccessfully to use this agaisnt Bush) have, and from the polls its not working.

TheKak

I have a friend in Iraq that I keep in contact with, and he said that most of the Iraquis (spelling?) LOVE the americans there. A small minority gets a lot of media attention and tries to make it look like all Iraquis dont want the americans there, when in fact most of them are very happy the americans came to help them out.

__________________
Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

rogue49

We don't know what's reality...why?
Because we aren't there.
Everyone has an agenda...everyone wants their view emphasized.

And just like real life...there is some good, and there is some bad.
But I would say...even though there is much still unstable,
with the type of commitment the US and the World "has to" make there,
then sooner or later, it will get better.
Yes, some better things have already happened...but more needs to be done.
And everything needs to be monitored.
This is going to be a long-haul

Unfortunately, the news orgs are looking for the headlines.
Nicey-nice doesn't make headlines...controversy and death does.
They have an agenda too.

It is our responsiblity to get our information from as many different sources as possible,
and slowly develop a semblance of the truth.

Of course, I could be saying this about ANYTHING in the news today.

Food Eater Lad

Thats all I was tying to show, that there IS progress in Iraq. Quality if life IS better in Iraq. There is a new hope in Iraq, but the violence in TWO places, and now mostly ONE place are all that fills the headlines.

Imagine if the outside world only read about the gang problems in East La and then used that to define the USA. That is what is going on in the news.

2wolves

F.E.L., the majority of the iraqi populace is in two places........ geography and population density still count for something.

2Wolves

Food Eater Lad

And so do forgeiners that come to Iraq to bomb and you think they are Iraqi's, and represent Iraqis.

2wolves

I assume your referring to non-Iraqi's? Curious but that doesn't address the issue you raised and I responded to.

(ask me if I'm surprised)

2Wolves

2wolves

Who said this?

"Well, just as it's important, I think, for a president to know when to commit U.S. forces to combat, it's also important to know when not to commit U.S. forces to combat. I think for us to get American military personnel involved in a civil war inside Iraq would literally be a quagmire. Once we got to Baghdad, what would we do? Who would we put in power? What kind of government would we have? Would it be a Sunni government, a Shi'a government, a Kurdish government? Would it be secular, along the lines of the Ba'ath Party? Would be fundamentalist Islamic? I do not think the United States wants to have U.S. military forces accept casualties and accept the responsibility of trying to govern Iraq. I think it makes no sense at all."

Must of been some psycho big time liberal.

2Wolves

2wolves

http://www.lies.com/blog/archives/001316.html

Scroll down to the first chart for KIA's by month in Vietnam and Iraq.

2Wolves

Phaenx

Sure, I'm tired of L.A.'s bullshit. Movie business, liberal politics, maybe a beach or two (which are about as interesting as all the other beaches we have).

Lets give it to the indians or black people so they stop bitching at the man for oppressing them.

Just kidding, screw them.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

2wolves

If you feel the need to make catty or just rude remarks be warned. Rude posts will be removed and the member warned and possibly banned.

__________________
Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

Food Eater Lad

Nothing you have posted 2wolves invalidates any of the progress made in Iraq. Sorry you choose not to see the good, only the bad. Such a sad way go go through life.

dog1

Bombings, mortar attacks, helicopters shot down, rocket propelled grenades into humvees .... let's put our blinders on and see the good.

Conclamo Ludus

I don't think anybody's ignoring these things. I don't think anybody's saying they aren't bad. Iraq could be going better. But its not the complete failure that the mainstream press makes it out to be. This is really unfortunate because when people run around shouting "failure" they have completely doomed the process. Iraq is far from over, and far from failure. The media has their blinders on waiting and hoping for another bombing to report, while obviously some have their blinders on saying that its going along perfect. Of course its not perfect, people are dying over there all the time. The only way Iraq will be a success is if we understand exactly what is happening and keep working to make that process better. Sadly it seems that too often it becomes a partisan issue to the detriment of both Iraqis and our troops. There should be nothing partisan about Iraq.

Did I mention that quagmire is my favorite character from the Family Guy. Giggity giggity giggity...

__________________
Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

Food Eater Lad

I love how when Bush talked about Iraq being most likely a five year process, and people cool with it. But now, not even a year later, people are screaming its a quagmire. What happened to our resolve that we would be their for years? Nothing happened that hasent been discused or predicted. The only thing is, like the above poster said, is partisian politics are using Iraq as a means to gain power. Its pathetic. The same people that made speaches about the long haul, are now the same people saying its taking too long. That is hypocritical.

Tman144

The attacks in Iraq are actually going up in scale since the war "ended." The administration said that this would be over quickly and that we could give the government over to the Iraqi people and be out of there. ABC news just made a report saying that over 600 people die a month from violent attacks in the "sunni triangle". Up from a a few dozen before the war. It is getting better, but they are spending way too much money on it.


P.S. Food Eater Lad, why all the hostility? Did a liberal kill your baby or something?

__________________
"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

Food Eater Lad

There is no hostility, I guess you take out of these boards what you bring in.


And no liberal killed my baby, but Islamofacists killed many of my friends and family.

Tman144

That just seems like your really angry or something. I could be wrong though, its just the impression I get from reading some of your posts.

__________________
"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm not trying to be out of line here, but seriously if the Democrats/ Evil (and I mean the evil part) of the liberal movement keep up this bullshit more AMERICAN'S are going to die in Iraq. Think about your partisan bullshit before you spew your politically motivated dissent, you are providing comfort and aid to the enemies. They see all this bullshit and they get inspired by it. Alot of Iraqi's are scared to death of a democrat coming to power because they fear what will happen to them. Do the Democrats have the resolve to stay the course? Will they flat pull out, its an honest question because I guarentee no U.N. nations have any interest of going in there.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Tman144

I don't think Osama reads TFP, and if he does, its a good sign for us because that means hes not planing another attack.

P.S. Food Eater Lad, I was wrong. Your not angry, Mojo_PeiPei is angry. Your just a little miffed.

__________________
"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

Food Eater Lad

I am weird. When ever terrorists kill 3000 of my country men, i seem to get angry about it.

Tman144

But the people of TFP didn't kill yours and my countrymen, so you don't need to get angry at the people here. Plus, I restated it as a little miffed, because your not nearly as hostile as that other guy. Thats the last I'm going to talk about it because we are getting way off topic.

__________________
"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

Sparhawk

The only democrat I've heard suggesting we pull out of Iraq is Kucinich, you know, the one with the snowball's chance in hell of getting the nomination, much less winning the presidency.

I'm quite sure any replacement of Bush will have better luck getting international support for our efforts there, which, logically, would lessen our footprint there considerably.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

cheerios

Contain the hostilities, boys...

eple

Hihihihi, islamofacsists....

seriously, this thread is getting way too angry. It is an important issue guys, but there is no need to go apeshit and start throwing insults and accustations all over the place. Maybe we should have our own rant thread, where the really angry posts can be posted or moved to?

Conclamo Ludus

Not a bad idea. The problem is we'll all end up there and we'll keep asking for more and more rant threads. Then we'll need a TFP Rant Board. Then a whole Rant Project. Our anger and hatred will destroy us all like the cancerous monster that it is. AHHH! I hate you Eple! And the Norwegian horse you rode in on!

Sorry...

Back on topic:

I don't mind criticism of the Iraq war. I encourage it if it is constructive. The problem that I see is that it is rarely constructive. I just don't see us all working together to make things better on our troops and better for Iraq. Whether or not anybody supported the war, we have a duty and an opporunity to help a nation. It appears to me that the duty of the media has been to show everyone how horrible war is and post-war is. This is fine. This is necessary. But the media's duty is to also show what we are doing to help Iraq as well. The problem stems from partisanship in general over the issue. It would seem democrat hardliners don't want to see any success in Iraq because that will somehow = success for Bush. The Republican hardliners don't want to see any criticism at all because they think that it will = criticism for Bush. And this is increasingly made worse with each day ticking down to election '04. Meanwhile we've got troops dying and Iraqi's slowly warming up to us. Rebuilding Iraq should not be used either as a politcal platform for any party, but sadly it is. This isn't in anyone's best interest. I try to maintain that Iraq could be going much better, but any type of criticism that is just calling it a failure, is extremely counterproductive. It is an ongoing process. I still don't understand how people ever got the impression that we were going to have a smooth ride with this. I fully expected the rebuilding process to go on for the next five years, long before the first bullets flew. Its fine to be anti-war, but the war has happened, its time to be pro-rebuilding, so we can make the best out of whatever it is we have gotten into.

__________________
Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

debaser

Yes.

__________________

debaser

Very well said, sir. I agree whole-heartedly.

__________________

Elegant Holmes

Here ia an e-mail I recieved from a friend of mine in the Jag. He's working to get a representative government in charge of Iraq so he can come home:
THE REAL IRAQ



By AMIR TAHERI
_____

July 17, 2003 -- Open up almost any American or European publication these
days, and you'll be bombarded with grim news about "horrific" conditions in
Iraq - and America's "poor handling" of the post-war reconstruction effort.
All of which, it is claimed, is made all the more tragic - because
President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair maliciously
exaggerated the threat from Iraq. They may have won the war, but they're
losing they peace.



Author and Middle East expert Amir Taheri spent several days on the ground
in Iraq last week and found reality to be starkly different from what is so
ubiquitously reported.



Here is a first-hand account of an Iraq that is rapidly moving forward in
nearly every aspect of life - political, economic and cultural. And a
people that, while understandably skeptical after decades of tyranny, is
nonetheless hopeful - and grateful for their liberation.



- THE EDITORS



BAGHDAD, IRAQ



'THE Iraqi Intifada!" This is the cover story offered by Al- Watan Al-Arabi
, a pro- Saddam Hussein weekly published in Paris. It finds an echo in the
latest issue of America's Time magazine, which paints a bleak prospect for
the newly liberated country. The daily Al Quds, another pro-Saddam paper,
quotes from The Washington Post in support of its claim that "a popular war
of resistance" is growing in Iraq. Some newspapers in the United States,
Britain and "old Europe" go further by claiming that Iraq has become a
"quagmire" or "another Vietnam." The Parisian daily Le Monde prefers the
term "engrenage," which is both more chic and French.



This chorus wants us to believe that most Iraqis regret the ancien regime,
and are ready to kill and die to expel their liberators.






Sorry, guys, this is not the case !!



Neither the wishful thinking of part of the Arab media, long in the pay of
Saddam, nor the visceral dislike of part of the Western media for George W.
Bush and Tony Blair changes the facts on the ground in Iraq.



ONE fact is that a visitor to Iraq these days never finds anyone who wants
Saddam back.



There are many complaints, mostly in Baghdad, about lack of security and
power cuts. There is anxiety about the future at a time that middle-class
unemployment is estimated at 40 percent. Iraqis also wonder why it is that
the coalition does not communicate with them more effectively. That does
not mean that there is popular support for violent action against the
coalition.



Another fact is that the violence we have witnessed, especially against
American troops, in the past six weeks is limited to less than 1 percent of
the Iraqi territory, in the so-called "Sunni Triangle," which includes
parts of Baghdad.



Elsewhere, the coalition presence is either accepted as a fact of life or
welcomed. On the 4th of July some shops and private homes in various parts
of Iraq, including the Kurdish areas and cities in the Shiite heartland,
put up the star-spangled flag as a show of gratitude to the United States.



"We see our liberation as the start of a friendship with the U.S. and the
U.K. that should last a thousand years," says Khalid Kishtaini, one of
Iraq's leading novelists. "The U.S. and the U.K. showed that a friend in
need is a friend indeed. Nothing can change that."



In the early days of the liberation, some mosque preachers tested the
waters by speaking against "occupation." They soon realized that their
congregations had a different idea. Today, the main theme in sermons at the
mosques is about a partnership between the Iraqi people and the coalition
to rebuild the war-shattered country and put it on the path of democracy.



Even the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada Sadr now says that "some good" could
come out of the coalition's presence in Iraq. "The coalition must help us
stabilize the situation," he says. "The healing period that we need would
not be possible if we are suddenly left alone."



Yet another fact is that all 67 of Iraq's cities and 85 percent of the
smaller towns now have fully functioning municipalities. Several
ministries, including that of health and education, have also managed to
get parts of their operations going again. The petroleum industry, too, is
being revived with plans to produce up to 2.8 million barrels of crude oil
a day before the year is out.



To be sure, life in Iraq today is no bed of roses. But don't forget that
this is an immediate post-war situation. There is no famine - in fact, the
bazaars are more replenished with food than ever since the late 1970s -
while food prices, having jumped in the first weeks after liberation, are
now lower than they were in the last years of Saddam's rule.



MOST hospitals are functioning again with essential medical supplies
trickling in for the first time since 1999. Also, some 85 percent of
primary and secondary schools and all but two of the nation's universities
have reopened with a full turnout of pupils and teachers.



The difference is that there no longer are any mukahebrat (secret police)
agents roaming the campuses and sitting at the back of classrooms to make
sure lecturers and students do not discuss forbidden topics. Nor are the
students required to start every day with a solemn oath of allegiance to
the dictator.



There has been no mass exodus anywhere in Iraq. On the contrary, many
Iraqis, driven out of their homes by Saddam, are returning to their towns
and villages.



Their return has given the building industry, moribund in the last years of
Saddam, a boost. Iraqi exiles and refugees abroad are also coming home,
many from Iran and Turkey. Last month alone the Iranian Red Crescent
recorded the repatriation of more than 10,000 Iraqis, mostly Kurds and
Shiites.



In Iraq today there are no "displaced persons," no uprooted communities and
no long lines of war victims in search of a safe haven.



FOR the first time in almost 50 years there are also no political
prisoners, no executions, no torture and no limit on freedom of expression.
Iraq today is the only Muslim country where all shades of opinion - from
the extremist Islamists of the Hezbollah to Stalinists, and passing by
liberals, socialists, Arab nationalists and moderate Islamists - have full
freedom to compete in an open market of ideas. Better still, all are now
represented in the newly created Governing Assembly (Majlis al-Hukum). Iraq
is also the only Muslim country where more than 100 newspapers and
weeklies, representing all shades of opinion, appear without a police
permit and are subjected to no censorship.



Much is made of power cuts, especially in Baghdad. But this is partly due
to a 30 percent seasonal increase in demand because of air-conditioning use
in temperatures that reach 115 degrees. In other cities - for example,
Basra - the country's second-most populous urban center, more electricity
is used than at any time under Saddam Hussein.



A stroll in the open-air book markets of the Rashid Street reveals that
thousands of books, blacklisted and banned under Saddam Hussein, are now
available for sale. Among the banned authors were almost all of Iraq's best
writers and poets, whom many young Iraqis discover for the first time.
Stalls, offering video and audiotapes for sale, are appearing in Baghdad
and other major cities, again giving Iraqis access to a forbidden cultural
universe.



The flower stalls along the Tigris are also making a comeback.



"Business is good," says Hashem Yassin, one florist. "In the past, we sold
a lot of flowers for funerals and placement on tombs. Now we sell for
weddings, birthday parties and gifts of friendship."



The free-market economy is making its first inroads into Iraq's socialistic
system in a number of small ways. Hundreds of hawkers are offering a
variety of imported goods and making brisk business by selling soft drinks,
often bottled in Iran, and biscuits and chewing gums from Turkey.



Some teahouses, in competition to attract clients, offer satellite
television as an additional attraction. Every evening people pack the
teahouses to watch, and zap and discuss, what they have seen in an
atmosphere of freedom unknown under Saddam. It may be hard for Westerners
to understand the Iraqis' exhilaration at being able to watch television of
their choice.



But this is a country where, under Saddam, people could be condemned as
spies and hanged for owning a satellite dish.



Another symbol of newly won freedom is the multiplication of cellular and
satellite phones. Most belong to returning exiles. But their appearance is
reassuring to many Iraqis. Under Saddam, their illegal possession could
carry the death penalty.



The portrayal of Baghdad as an oriental version of the Far West in
Hollywood Westerns misses the point. It ignores the fact that life is
creeping back to normal, that weddings, always popular in summer, are being
celebrated again, often with traditional tribal ostentation. The first rock
concert since the war, offered by a boys' band, has already taken place,
and Iraq's National Football (soccer) Squad has resumed training under a
German coach.



THERE are two Iraqs today: One as portrayed by those in America and Europe
who wish to use it as a means of damaging Bush and Blair, and the other as
it really exists, home to 24 million people with many hopes and aspirations
and, naturally, some anxiety about the future.



"After we have aired our grievances we remember the essential point: Saddam
is gone," says Mohsen Saleh, a geologist in Baghdad. "A man who is cured of
cancer does not complain about a common cold."

Elegant Holmes

sorry that was so long. Here's the guys email so you know I didn't make this up:
E-mail: amirtaheri@benadorassociates.com
I just want to know why Americans never see any good news from Iraq.

2wolves

This past Wednesday NPR did a 12 minute piece on the progress of the school system. Very encouraging. Then Thursday or Friday the United States viceroy canned almost 20k of Iraq's teachers for being Bathists (like they had a choice). So one step forward, two back. No one replaces tens of thousands of teachers overnight.

Link: http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story....xjHCs1ICMvTzxi


2Wolves

__________________
Nation of the Cat. Forgive maybe, forget .... not quite yet.

nirol

2Wolves, That site is a crock. This is evidenced by the Nethercutt quote along the top. This quote has been "dowdified" (parts of actual quote deleted, or added to other sentences to change the intent of the sentence).

You need to look at all of Iraq. Granted things will be bad for a while, but can you really state that in the long run things will get worse?
Going to Iraq was a bad decision, perhaps, but sometimes you only have a choice between the bad and the worse.

__________________
'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)