Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

HarmlessRabbit · 08-13-2003, 10:39 PM

Interesting story. Personally, I like Al Franken.... Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot was a funny book, and I'm looking forward to this one.

But what was O'Reilly/Fox thinking with this lawsuit? Franken's book went from pretty unknown to #1 on amazon pre-orders due to their lawsuit. Are they secretly friends with Franken and just trying to do him a favor? The book is comedy, so Fox had to know that their lawsuit doesn't have a chance in hell of sticking just on parody grounds.

http://www.drudgereport.com/bof.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/ny...partner=GOOGLE

http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details...5947647&days=7

Lots of underlying personal vendettas going on here. O'Reilly apparently doesn't like Franken due to some stuff he has said in the past. Drudge appears to have a grudge against O'Reilly too because he has said nasty things in the past about O'Reilly's radio show, maybe because it competes with Drudge's.

Anyway, quite a soap opera going on. Looks like Franken will end up laughing all the way to the bank.

Quote:

O'REILLY LOBBIED FOR LAWSUIT

**Exclusive**

FOX NEWS star Bill O'Reilly lobbied his network to file suit against author Al Franken and his upcoming book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right," top sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

"For Bill, above all other things, this was a matter of honor and support," a top source explained from New York.

MORE

In his book, Franken directly challenges O'Reilly on his journalistic record and aggressively accuses cable's top-rated host of exaggeration, padding of his resume and other claims.

"He is not going to sit by and let Franken smear the hell out of him," a top FOX source said.

The lawsuit does not directly address the content of the book on charges of libel, rather it claims Fox has trademarked "Fair and Balanced" to describe its news coverage and that Mr. Franken's use of the phrase would "blur and tarnish" it.

Nearly a month before its release, the Franken work has rocketed and lodged itself at #1 on AMAZON's sales list.

Developing...

ctembreull · 08-13-2003, 10:41 PM

Within a day of the lawsuit being announced, Franken's book rose to #1 on the Amazon sales chart. It had previously stood somewhere in the teens (I think).

Thanks, FOX! Free publicity for a book that makes you look bad. How dumb can you get?

The_Dude · 08-13-2003, 10:55 PM

yea, i had never heard of the guy before i saw the info on the lawsuit a couple of days ago.

i mean, it's very borderline here about the phrase "fair and balanced" as belonging to FNC. and the guy is using the phrase inside a sentance too. i'll have to side with franken.

Lebell · 08-13-2003, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
yea, i had never heard of the guy before i saw the info on the lawsuit a couple of days ago.

i mean, it's very borderline here about the phrase "fair and balanced" as belonging to FNC. and the guy is using the phrase inside a sentance too. i'll have to side with franken.

I LIVED the Al Franken decade.

Did you???

Superbelt · 08-14-2003, 04:17 AM

The book wasn't in the teens. It was up in the 200 - 700 range for much of the time preceeding the lawsuit.
It made over a 13,000% jump in one day.

Sparhawk · 08-14-2003, 05:24 AM

Pre-ordered. Done and done.

Hey Al, it's because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and dog gone it, people like you.

onetime2 · 08-14-2003, 05:38 AM

Don't like Franken, moderately like O'Reilly, no thoughts on Drudge but I guess the lawsuit is legitimate. I mean you can sue for anything you want, it doesn't mean you will win but you can still sue.

The whole trademarking of common phrases is more outrageous to me than the lawsuit or Franken's and O'Reilly's/Fox's argument.

There needs to be a better trademark process since there have been quite a few cases of late with corporations (and individuals) taking ownership of common terms.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-14-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

I LIVED the Al Franken decade.

Me too, Lebell.

Kadath · 08-14-2003, 08:42 AM

Having read both Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot and Why Not Me, I'll be picking this up. I think Franken's written stuff is very funny, unlike his acting stuff on SNL. As for this lawsuit, brilliant work, Fox. We like to call you "Fair and (Mentally)Unbalanced" around here.

sixate · 08-14-2003, 11:53 AM

O'Reilly and Fox News both look stupid over this. They both love conservatives who blast liberals, as I do, but they can't take it in return. What a bunch of fucking pussies!

JamesS · 08-14-2003, 10:03 PM

The sad part, I'm told, is that because the lawsuit was filed as a trademark violation case instead of a copyright infringement or libel suit, Fox might have a chance.

If Fox can convince a judge that their trademark is 'diluted' or something to that effect by the book, then the fight is apparently on.

Xell101 · 08-14-2003, 10:33 PM

I've seen and heard a lot of Al Franken, I must say, what a bonehead.

Phaenx · 08-14-2003, 10:41 PM

Hahaha, stick it to them.

prb · 08-15-2003, 09:08 AM

Definitely a frivolous lawsuit. And, because we all know that trial lawyers are usually liberal, I predict Fox will be handed its ass on a platter.

ctembreull · 08-15-2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prb
we all know that trial lawyers are usually liberal

Um, I'd dearly love to see you attempt to justify this statement. What, next are you going to try to tell me the media's liberal, too?!

BigGov · 08-15-2003, 12:38 PM

At least there are studies that have proven over the past 30 years the media has been more left than right.

rodgerd · 08-15-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy4
At least there are studies that have proven over the past 30 years the media has been more left than right.

There are studies that claim tobacco is good for you, too. Pay enough money to the right think tank and you can have any study you please.

rodgerd · 08-15-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Lots of underlying personal vendettas going on here. O'Reilly apparently doesn't like Franken due to some stuff he has said in the past.

The vendetta is that O'Reilly has repeatedly, on the record, lied about recieving a prestigious media award (he didn't); Frankin has got stuck into him about this in the past.

Apparently exposing frauds is Bad and Wrong.

Vyk · 08-15-2003, 01:45 PM

I very much would like to see Fox take a beating for this suit. I do think it's funny that they gave him so much free publicity. Must be nice to be his publisher right about now.

Xell101 · 08-15-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

There are studies that claim tobacco is good for you, too. Pay enough money to the right think tank and you can have any study you please.

Yeup, although 30 years of studies reaching the same conclusion must be really expensive. Anywho easiest way of noticing it is looking how they describe the parties. The democrats surge power on waves of popular support. The Republicans took over. The Democrats were elected into office. The Republicans seized office.

smooth · 08-15-2003, 06:04 PM

Well there's your problem right there: you consider the Democrats to be liberals.

Examine how the press treats Kucinich or Dean and then come back to us with the evidence that they pander to the liberals.

Bust_Action · 08-18-2003, 02:01 PM

Did anyone see that panel where O'Reilly and Franken were featured guests on C-Span a few months ago? It quickly degenerated into O'Reilly yelling at Franken to shut up.

I have to give props to anyone who pisses off a jackass like O'Reilly, because let's face it, pissing people off is funny.

JumpinJesus · 08-18-2003, 03:26 PM

O'Reilly has a history of telling his guests to shut up. Anyone remember his exchange with Jeremy Glick, whose father was killed in the World Trade Center, in February? Glick had the audacity to go on O'Reilly's program and not support the impending war in Iraq. O'Reilly, the Inside Edition host extraordinaire, told Glick to shut up as well.

As to the 30 years of research showing a liberal media bias, I would appreciate being directed to any of these studies.

smooth · 08-18-2003, 07:52 PM

I can't really help you with those studies but this is an interesting source:

http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/

Macheath · 08-19-2003, 10:14 AM

Here's O'Reilly's lame response:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/idea...5p-99223c.html

Quote:

Calling Al Franken a satirist is a farce

In a few weeks, the Fox News Channel will celebrate its seventh birthday awash in publicity and success. From virtually nothing, the organization that employs me has risen up to become one of the most powerful news agencies in the country. This is a stunning achievement, but it's also one that has engendered bitterness and controversy.

Fox has succeeded by mixing a populist-traditional, pro-American editorial posture with lively debate that includes voices the traditional network news organizations would never allow airtime.

The accusation that Fox is a conservative network is pure propaganda. Poll after poll has demonstrated that Fox's audience is across the board, ideologically and demographically. The latest survey taken by Mediamark Research finds that more ultraconservative viewers watch CNN than Fox.

But facts don't matter to the Fox haters who are, themselves, primarily ultraliberal. The dominance of Fox in the cable news world has shattered the stranglehold the left had on TV news for decades, and that has caused fear and loathing in some political circles.

Using liberal-leaning newspapers and publishing houses, the critics of Fox have unleashed defamatory personal attacks on me and other Fox news analysts and have attempted to denigrate the entire network. If Fox News crashed and burned tomorrow, these people would toast marshmallows in the flames.

Now Fox News is striking back by putting the demonizers on notice that they will be held responsible when they violate trademarks or launch defamatory personal attacks on Fox personnel.

It is simply a sorry joke to see a political activist like Al Franken labeled a satirist by The New York Times. Attempting to smear and destroy the reputations of those with whom you politically disagree is not satire. If that were the case, Richard Nixon's Watergate plumbers would all be writing for "Saturday Night Live."

Fox News has become the highest-rated news network on cable because we feature lively debate and all honest voices are welcome. We don't do drive-by character assassinations, and we don't denigrate opposing points of view by launching gratuitous personal attacks. Fox's presentation is in the tradition of the raucous town meeting where passion and conviction are on display. We challenge people of all political persuasions.

It makes me sick to see intellectually dishonest individuals hide behind the First Amendment to spread propaganda, libel and slander. But this is a growing trend in America, where the exchange of ideas often degenerates into verbal mud wrestling with intent to injure. The poo-bahs at The Times know what a smear campaign is, but apparently, if it's directed at an enterprise the paper disapproves of, it's okay. I wonder how The Times' editorialists would react if their faces graced a book cover accompanied by the word "liar." Oh, right, they'd consider it satire.

This country is a better place because Fox News has succeeded. Now there is a wider range of thought and expression available 2-4/7. But the country is worse off because of the brutal repercussions of that success. A nation that prides itself on diversity of opinion and acceptance of differing political points of view is being subjected to an orgy of media defamation and sometimes outright hatred.

And satire has nothing to do with it.

Originally published on August 18, 2003

Kadath · 08-19-2003, 11:46 AM

Jesus, did he actually write that? I sort of expected a more polished writing style from Bill. I'd guess he hasn't read this or any of Al's other books. And all this from a guy who makes his debating point by shouting down the other guy. If Fox was really so even in their reporting, they wouldn't have to trademark "Fair and Balanced." Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

JumpinJesus · 08-19-2003, 01:23 PM

Bill O'Reilly is speaking of intellectual dishonesty?

That's like OJ Simpson giving a seminar on domestic violence at a women's shelter.

Kadath · 08-19-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JumpinJesus
Bill O'Reilly is speaking of intellectual dishonesty?

That's like OJ Simpson giving a seminar on domestic violence at a women's shelter.

Someone's read Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot...

348Dav · 08-21-2003, 10:59 PM

I can be a political commentator because i'm good enough, im smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.

Phaenx · 08-21-2003, 11:03 PM

Actually, you only need about half of the people to like you. And if that half likes you, then the other side automatically hates you.

eris · 08-22-2003, 03:07 AM

I can't wait to read this - Franken cracks me up... and his timing is good!

JBX · 08-22-2003, 04:49 AM

I think they arranged the publicity and are going to split the profits. If you don't want anyone to buy the book don't mention it. All it does is raise curiosity. I think Franken is an socialist ass.

The_Dude · 08-22-2003, 02:39 PM

haha, judge refused the lawsuit.

Quote:

Fox Loses Bid to Stop Sale of Franken Book

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Friday slammed Fox News' trademark infringement lawsuit against humorist Al Franken and his publisher Penguin Group and refused to stop the sale of the satirist's new book that pokes fun at Fox and host Bill O'Reilly.

Fox charged that Franken had violated its trademarked phrase "fair and balanced" by including it on the cover of his book entitled "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." Fox is owned by News Corp and Penguin is a unit of Pearson . The book went on sale on Thursday.

"There are hard cases and there are easy cases. This is an easy case," said U.S. District Judge Denny Chin, who added that the motion for an injunction was "wholly without merit."

He said it is highly unlikely that consumers would be misled to think that Fox is sponsoring the book. He also said the trademark is weak.

long live al franken and may he publish a lot more books like this one.

mml · 08-22-2003, 04:26 PM

The funniest part of this whole thing is that many of FOX's pundits - O'Reilly, Hannity, Hume etc. - often condemn the litigious nature of America. Now, when things don't go the way they like, what do they do? They start litigation. It really strikes me as funny.

Nizzle · 08-22-2003, 04:41 PM

Today's been a good day for slapping down the asshats. Not only did the Justice in Alabama get suspended, but Fox's bid to stop the publication of Al Franken's book (the media trying to chill free speech ... amazing) was slapped down by the courts. To quote the judge:

Quote:

"There are hard cases and there are easy cases. This is an easy case," said U.S. District Judge Denny Chin. "This case is wholly without merit both factually and legally."

"Parody is a form of artistic expression protected by the First Amendment. The keystone to parody is imitation. Mr. Franken is clearly mocking Fox," said Chin.

Hooray for sanity.

2wolves · 08-22-2003, 04:58 PM

Fux News latest tag line: "Without merit both factually and legally."

It would be truth in advertising at the very least.

2Wolves

tinytim · 08-25-2003, 10:49 PM

Regardless of who wins the suit, frankens pocket book will be the real winner. Not sure what fox was thinking with this one but holly free publicity moron man.

Darkblack · 08-26-2003, 04:45 AM

I got this book yesterday and can't put it down. It is a great read! Pick it up today if you have not already.

Thagrastay · 09-01-2003, 03:15 PM

Al Franken is a damned funny satirist. Unfortunately he is also a socialist and a liberal (The two really are synonomous, by the way). I think this is a deliberate move on the part of Foz and o'Reilly to stir up numbers by gaining a publicity of their own. Now the liberals will want to tune in just to razx the network and in so doing will increase their viewer shares.
the name of the game is $$$.
Al Franken and Bill O'Reilly remind me of Andy Kaufman and his wrestler nemesis.

08-13-2003, 10:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
ctembreull Crazy Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA, Earth	Within a day of the lawsuit being announced, Franken's book rose to #1 on the Amazon sales chart. It had previously stood somewhere in the teens (I think). Thanks, FOX! Free publicity for a book that makes you look bad. How dumb can you get? __________________ Mac "If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

08-13-2003, 10:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	yea, i had never heard of the guy before i saw the info on the lawsuit a couple of days ago. i mean, it's very borderline here about the phrase "fair and balanced" as belonging to FNC. and the guy is using the phrase inside a sentance too. i'll have to side with franken. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-14-2003, 05:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Pre-ordered. Done and done. Hey Al, it's because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and dog gone it, people like you. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

08-14-2003, 05:38 AM	#7 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Don't like Franken, moderately like O'Reilly, no thoughts on Drudge but I guess the lawsuit is legitimate. I mean you can sue for anything you want, it doesn't mean you will win but you can still sue. The whole trademarking of common phrases is more outrageous to me than the lawsuit or Franken's and O'Reilly's/Fox's argument. There needs to be a better trademark process since there have been quite a few cases of late with corporations (and individuals) taking ownership of common terms. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

08-14-2003, 08:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Having read both Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot and Why Not Me, I'll be picking this up. I think Franken's written stuff is very funny, unlike his acting stuff on SNL. As for this lawsuit, brilliant work, Fox. We like to call you "Fair and (Mentally)Unbalanced" around here. __________________ it's quiet in here

08-14-2003, 04:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	The book wasn't in the teens. It was up in the 200 - 700 range for much of the time preceeding the lawsuit. It made over a 13,000% jump in one day.

08-14-2003, 11:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	O'Reilly and Fox News both look stupid over this. They both love conservatives who blast liberals, as I do, but they can't take it in return. What a bunch of fucking pussies! Last edited by sixate; 08-14-2003 at 07:20 PM..

08-14-2003, 10:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
JamesS Crazy Location: Land of the Hanging Chad	The sad part, I'm told, is that because the lawsuit was filed as a trademark violation case instead of a copyright infringement or libel suit, Fox might have a chance. If Fox can convince a judge that their trademark is 'diluted' or something to that effect by the book, then the fight is apparently on. __________________ The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives. -- Albert Schweitzer

08-14-2003, 10:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	I've seen and heard a lot of Al Franken, I must say, what a bonehead.

08-14-2003, 10:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Hahaha, stick it to them. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

08-15-2003, 09:08 AM	#14 (permalink)
prb Psycho	Definitely a frivolous lawsuit. And, because we all know that trial lawyers are usually liberal, I predict Fox will be handed its ass on a platter.

08-15-2003, 12:38 PM	#16 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	At least there are studies that have proven over the past 30 years the media has been more left than right. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-15-2003, 01:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
Vyk Insane Location: Dayton, Ohio	I very much would like to see Fox take a beating for this suit. I do think it's funny that they gave him so much free publicity. Must be nice to be his publisher right about now. __________________ "Courage of the heart is very rare"

08-15-2003, 06:04 PM	#21 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Well there's your problem right there: you consider the Democrats to be liberals. Examine how the press treats Kucinich or Dean and then come back to us with the evidence that they pander to the liberals. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

08-18-2003, 02:01 PM	#22 (permalink)
Bust_Action Upright Location: San Marcos, Tx	Did anyone see that panel where O'Reilly and Franken were featured guests on C-Span a few months ago? It quickly degenerated into O'Reilly yelling at Franken to shut up. I have to give props to anyone who pisses off a jackass like O'Reilly, because let's face it, pissing people off is funny. __________________ Your favorite band sucks.

08-18-2003, 03:26 PM	#23 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	O'Reilly has a history of telling his guests to shut up. Anyone remember his exchange with Jeremy Glick, whose father was killed in the World Trade Center, in February? Glick had the audacity to go on O'Reilly's program and not support the impending war in Iraq. O'Reilly, the Inside Edition host extraordinaire, told Glick to shut up as well. As to the 30 years of research showing a liberal media bias, I would appreciate being directed to any of these studies. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-18-2003, 07:52 PM	#24 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I can't really help you with those studies but this is an interesting source: http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/ __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

08-19-2003, 11:46 AM	#26 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Jesus, did he actually write that? I sort of expected a more polished writing style from Bill. I'd guess he hasn't read this or any of Al's other books. And all this from a guy who makes his debating point by shouting down the other guy. If Fox was really so even in their reporting, they wouldn't have to trademark "Fair and Balanced." Methinks the lady doth protest too much... __________________ it's quiet in here

08-19-2003, 01:23 PM	#27 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Bill O'Reilly is speaking of intellectual dishonesty? That's like OJ Simpson giving a seminar on domestic violence at a women's shelter. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-21-2003, 10:59 PM	#29 (permalink)
348Dav Tilted Location: Anaheim	I can be a political commentator because i'm good enough, im smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.

08-21-2003, 11:03 PM	#30 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Actually, you only need about half of the people to like you. And if that half likes you, then the other side automatically hates you. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

08-22-2003, 03:07 AM	#31 (permalink)
eris Crazy	I can't wait to read this - Franken cracks me up... and his timing is good! __________________ allhaileris

08-22-2003, 04:49 AM	#32 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	I think they arranged the publicity and are going to split the profits. If you don't want anyone to buy the book don't mention it. All it does is raise curiosity. I think Franken is an socialist ass. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

08-22-2003, 04:26 PM	#34 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	The funniest part of this whole thing is that many of FOX's pundits - O'Reilly, Hannity, Hume etc. - often condemn the litigious nature of America. Now, when things don't go the way they like, what do they do? They start litigation. It really strikes me as funny. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

08-22-2003, 04:58 PM	#36 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Fux News latest tag line: "Without merit both factually and legally." It would be truth in advertising at the very least. 2Wolves

08-25-2003, 10:49 PM	#37 (permalink)
tinytim Tilted	Regardless of who wins the suit, frankens pocket book will be the real winner. Not sure what fox was thinking with this one but holly free publicity moron man.

08-26-2003, 04:45 AM	#38 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	I got this book yesterday and can't put it down. It is a great read! Pick it up today if you have not already.

09-01-2003, 03:15 PM	#39 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	Al Franken is a damned funny satirist. Unfortunately he is also a socialist and a liberal (The two really are synonomous, by the way). I think this is a deliberate move on the part of Foz and o'Reilly to stir up numbers by gaining a publicity of their own. Now the liberals will want to tune in just to razx the network and in so doing will increase their viewer shares. the name of the game is $$$. Al Franken and Bill O'Reilly remind me of Andy Kaufman and his wrestler nemesis. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"