smooth

He's trying to explain to you that there are different definitions of "justice" -- each equally valid and valuable to consider.

Some consider "justice" to be following the rules (which seems to be the way you are leaning when you use phrases like "rule of law"). that would mean that OBL should have been captured, tried, and etc. according to pre-defined parameters. The flip-side of that, is that people can "get off" via technical violations or over-sight. That is, sometimes "justice" of that flavor results in no punishment for the offender. More importantly to someone of your political/philpsophical leanings, is that procedural justice does not allow for corrections of social injustice. It doesn't have space for something like an unjust law (competing with your position on unfair drug laws).

You've got a couple mutually exclusive theoretical foundations operating in your assessment. That's one problem.
Law and Order episodes are about the procedural justice side of our legal structures. That's why his response to your procedural justice-ish stance looked like an episode.


"Justice" as an outcome tends to focus on whether the end result is considered appropriate, regardless of the procedure utilized to obtain it. In this specific case, many people consider OBL's actions worthy of death. A trial would only be useful in so far as it becomes a means to that end. To most, it's unnecessary and at worst could be a liability (because regardless of whether they are fair (or "just" in common parlance) our country *does* focus on procedural justice.

This kind of justice doesn't allow the cop to let you go without a ticket simply because you sped up over the speed limit to get your wife to the hospital or to avoid the car accident to your left. It doesn't allow people to refuse to convict the thief who stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving child.

That's the problem with using "justice" willynilly

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filtherton

Nice to see you, smooth. I think that his definition of justice was more along the lines of what I meant when I wrote about the rule of law. Hence, my point about America's over-incarceration of drug users as an example of the US' lack of respect for justice. Drug possession is illegal, and I think this isn't just. I don't think the US is really too concerned with this type of justice, the "making sure motherfuckers get what they deserve" kind. Or, at least we're really bad at it. Or, the other type of justice (rule of law) coupled with corrupt legislative and executive branches makes the "motherfuckers get theirs" type of justice really difficult to pull off. That's even assuming that there's an objective way to dole out to the motherfuckers that which they deserve in appropriate portions.

dlish

hmmm...


the way the US position is changing on what actually happened in that compound doesnt really sit well with me. its becoming clearer by the day that the adminstration has masked the true events. his daughter now has said to pakistani intelligence that she saw him be captured alive and then killed, which sounds like an execution style killing more than a firefight. Bin Laden?s daughter confirms her father shot dead by US Special Forces in Pakistan. could the releasing of photos uncover US untruths about this story?


islamic burial? - yeah right.
killed in a firefight? -debunked
holding a hostage? - crap
hiding behind his wife? - bull
holding a weapon? - uh uh
resisted US troops? nup


is it the 'fog of war' or is there more to the story?

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KirStang

Dlish,

Having interviewed asylum applicants (ex-soldiers, torture vics) and other immigrants, and asking them to piece together a coherent, piece by piece story, with absolutely no inconsistencies is difficult, given the extremely emotional nature of their experiences.

While it is unsettling that the story keeps changing (especially the portion about shooting an armed Osama), I think the administration deserves the benefit of the doubt, before we conclude that Bin Laden was executed by some of our most elite soldiers.

In all likelihood, the inconsistencies probably stem more from misconceptions adopted as truth in a rapidly developing situation, rather than a deliberate cover-up by US forces.

Still, my bullsh*t detector pinged at least once or twise. (a) No pictures of the body, citing security reasons (b) quick burial in to water (c) a lot of changing stories. Maybe I'm just a retard know-nothing.

Finally, a 12 year-old daughter claiming that her father was detained then shot in front of the family. In a 2 am raid. I somehow find her credibility lacking.

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Baraka_Guru

I guess it will be up to WikiLeaks now.

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dlish

im wondering if the US will actually give a shit about the UN's request. My guess is that the US will quote national security as an excuse to not provide this information, further deepening the worry that the world has on the US's holier than though attitude

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Sheepy

It's strange all the discussion seems dominated by perspectives on the US.

I found i'm more interested about how Osama had lived in Pakistan for so long. And now they are sure that the man to take up his position also lives there. How do we look at Pakistan now?

dlish

pakistan has been predictably unpredictable since recent memory, and thats not about to change anytime soon.

between pseudo democracy and the military, as well as islamic militancy and the talibans Pashtun tribal connections to the pakistanis, who the fuck knows whats going on with pakistan. i dont blame the americans for not telling the pakistanis, although it was a major breach of Pakistani soveriegnty.

i dont think ayman al zawahiri is there. the compound has been under surveilance for 9 months. if they were living in the same area, they'd have visited each other and they'd probably both be dead. considering that there is no phone or internet connection to the house, and that zawahiri had not visited OBL for some time, i'd be willing to bet that the AQ network is disjointed at worst.

to be honest, initially when the story broke, i was like..'meh' this was bound to happen, ok lets move on. but with the amount of movement in the information thats been fed to the masses, it's piqued my interest because its telling me that there's more to the story than what's being portrayed.

i personally find it hard to believe the whole islamic burial thing at sea. i dont see the reason for it. he is probably sitting in ice somewhere until someone decides to do something about it.

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Tully Mars

dish the US doesn't seem to give a crap about the UN unless they agree with and back up some thing we want to do. If not there generally called worthless and ignored.

As far as the story changing I believe I said, after hearing the first press release, it probably happened any way other then the way they described. I figure it's a bout a 95% chance he's actually dead. Dumped at sea... umm no idea, doesn't make a lot of sense... but could be.

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roachboy

so let's summarize, shall we.

the heroic raid narrative is coming unraveled.
problem.
solution? seal up domestic consent with ritual and send obama for photo-ops to the wtc, connect beginning to end (without meaning, you know, the actual end of anything. the end of bad things happening to the narrative maybe).
then pakistan is saying: you know this heroic raid thing? it might have been against certain rules. like national sovergeinty and un agreements and stuff.
response: pshaw. besides, you're pakistan.
then the un hcr demands an explanation.
response: begin releasing other narratives based on the hard drives etc. that operate as a second-order justification for the heroic raid narrative without requiring that any element in the heroic raid narrative be true.

to wit:

Osama bin Laden 'closely involved in al-Qaida plots' | World news | The Guardian

so here we are, ladies and gentlemen, in the tawdry theater of orwellian stage-management again.
that ugly space of badly done ideological manipulation that's been one of the real hallmarks of this noxious period dominated by the meme "war on terror"

i wonder what the next plot point will be.

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Baraka_Guru

Yeah, they're really jim-wilkinsoning this whole thing, aren't they?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Baraka_Guru

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Walt

While I seriously doubt the credibility of bin Laden's daughter, executing the man seems perfectly reasonable from a tactical perspective. This is all armchair quarterbacking on my part, but I imagine that there was a bit of a time crunch imposed upon the shooters. They were operating in small numbers, unsupported by air and ground assets, and so could risk only a very short time on target. They didn't have time to wrestle with or otherwise persuade bin Laden to leave with them.

The guy was obviously protected by factions within PAKMIL and, given his status, probably had a quick reaction force in the nearby area. I dont think it would be unreasonable for to the shooters expect some kind of massive response from the nearby military academy and/or the surrounding community. Once the shooters made their presence known on their infiltration, they had to move fast. If bin Laden resisted and slowed the extraction of the team, shooting him would be perfectly acceptable.

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dlish

we're all armchair quarterbacks here.

But no, shooting him because they couldnt get the job done isnt a perfectly acceptable reason to kill him. thats an execution style killing. i'd be more cofortable with a shooting from the fog of war than knowing that they killed him because they couldnt get him out. sure they were pressed for time, but a dozen specially trained SEALS could easily put a self styled 60 year old militant out within a few seconds. It has been widely reported that the order was to go in for the kill, so after they got him without a fight, killing him is an execution style killing which wouldnt be sanctioned under international law. But who gives a shit about international law when its the US breaking them right?

the question is, if Osama was killed without a fight as may be the case, and if Obama gave the order to kill Bin Laden, can Obama he be prosecuted by the HRC if he was found of wrong doing?

i also dont think its obvious that Bin laden was protected factions within PAKMIL. If the US intelligence doesnt know for sure, or they are hiding that fact, i dont know how you would know.

As far as Bin ladens daughter is concerned, id be willing to believe a 9 year old girl before i believe the bullshit that the US administration, military and the CIA has been feeding us over the past week.

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KirStang

I don't know about that, Dlish. This guy evaded the full might of the US military for almost 10 fricken years.

I'll comment more on the international law aspect of it, later.

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dlish

he did evade capture for 10 fricken years. but that doesnt mean that he'd be in any physical shape to take on a dozen SEALS. he was confined to two rooms on the upperfloor for the past 2 years with 3 wives and some kids. I doubt he'd be in any sort of physical shape to take down 1 let alone a dozen military guys with his bare hands.

ive got to go play me some ultimate frisbee. i guess ill be back in a few hours

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roachboy

Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan | World news | The Guardian

so most all of what we've been treated to is in fact cheap, shabby theater.

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EventHorizon

haha they didn't have anything planned out. that article shows that the US pretty much got permission from Pakistan to pay a visit and thump some skulls if thats what it came to

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