Internal Revenue Service= whose internal? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 07-14-2003, 04:21 PM

Over the years I’ve found myself thrown back and forth over what I believe happens in the US government. When I tell myself to believe the most logical things; I see illogical actions happen. This isn’t by anyone person or party, but the system in general. There are many subjects; too many to cover in one thread, so my focus on this one is the IRS.

Rather than state what I believe and provide links, I’ll post from an inquisitive point of view to see what information others have. I’m not attempting to convince anyone of anything, but hopefully learn something.

I’ve “heard” that the IRS is a collection agency for the Federal Reserve Bank. I’ve also read/heard the Federal Reserve Bank is not part of the US government but a privately own institution. It’s been said that the parties who control the Federal Reserve Bank are people of low integrity.

Is it true that income taxes were voluntary prior to WWII?

The country obviously needs money to run and defend itself, but does the current system of collecting taxes lining the pockets of people that have no right or constitutionally legal cause to be doing such a thing? That would make us slaves in a sense.

From personal experience (if anyone still has PLEASE scan it) I remember reading the instructional booklet that comes with the 1040 in 1993. In the first few sentences it stated that annually thousands of Americans voluntarily pay their taxes, after that year they took that line out.

Any information is greatly appreciated.

Here’s one link I’ll submit. (I will comment on that I don’t have enough information on the Federal Observer to say what it promotes is the truth, however the speeches given by American politicians it provides I do comprehend to be factual.)

http://www.federalobserver.com/words.php?words=2718

XXXs · 07-14-2003, 06:53 PM

I'm not sure when taxes became mandatory, but the ability of the Federal government to collect taxes pretty much comes from the 16th amendment, which I think was passed in 1913. There were taxes before this. Income taxes were imposed to pay for the Civil War, but I believe were cancelled after (not positive).

16th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

To me, this means they have a constitutional right to collect taxes.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the IRS is part of the Fed. The fed sets monetary policy (interest rates and the like). I'm not really sure they have anything to do with taxes.

I'm not really sure if this is anything you were interested in, but here it is anyway. Keep in mind, the article you linked to is a speech from 1934. What once MAY have been true, may have changed.

Why not go to http://www.federalreserve.gov to learn about the Fed?

oldman2003 · 07-14-2003, 07:01 PM

If you really want to get confussed, check out this link....
http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/htm/intro.htm

guthmund · 07-14-2003, 08:59 PM

Here's what I remember from my civics class.

Before the Civil War, taxes were collected by the gov't through tariffs and on taxes on things like gold, silver and alcohol. During the Civil War, however, the nation's debt was too large to be covered by the old system of collecting money and an income tax was instituted to bring the books back square.

I know there were several different income taxes proposed, but income taxes were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in the 1890's (94-95?) I've read that it was because the income tax wasn't apportioned to the states as the Constitution requires, but the 16th amendment clearly states that it doesn't need to. Maybe I'm not reading that right, or clearly understanding it.

When the income tax amendment was ratified in 1913, the Federal Reserve was set up and income tax became mandatory.

I'm pretty sure that the I.R.S. is a goverment agency and not directly connected to the Fed, which isn't under the auspices of the federal goverment. That's why, even though Greenspan had to get Congressional approval to serve, he is under no obligation to "answer" to them.

This isn't the first and only Federal Bank. There were two other 'National Banks' in the early part of our history, that were run by some unscrupulous fellows. The charter on the second National Bank ran out during Andrew Jackson's term. Jackson's opinion of the bank wasn't high to begin with. He seen it as rich white folks' holding rich white folks' money and helping rich white folks' with their troubles.

I've read that 3/4 of the states are needed to ratify an amendment to the Constitution. The argument I've seen a lot of says that there wasn't enough to ratify it so the gov't "ratified" it anyway through Congress, which I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to do, which makes the 16th amendment unconstitutional. So somewhere there are states that haven't ratified the 16th amendment for income taxes, but they make us pay anyway.

I can't find anything that isn't blatantly Anti-tax or Pro-tax. The closest I've come is this website

http://www.unclefed.com/Audit-Proofing/step4-2b.html

It lists court cases that you can research to verify if ol' Uncle Fed is reporting correctly.

Sun Tzu · 07-14-2003, 10:51 PM

Thanks for the info and the links I have some research to do. This interest started about 7 years ago. I had a friend that owned his own video store. He had not signed on with the California State Board of Equalization. After 2 1/2 years of being in business they started demanding his cooperation.

He was one of those individuals that had the Constitution memorized word for word with one hanging on his wall. He practically had the entire collection of Blackstone Law books memorized as well. He didn’t have a driver's license (something about the right to travel and him not being a vehicle of commerce) and the only thing he had for a plate on his car was Sovereign American.

Needless to say I never wanted to ride with him, but he would always beat any traffic ticket surprisingly. I went and watched him once and when they said all rise (for the judge) he was the only one who didn’t. (He says that practice was done in the puritan days for when the Bible was brought in and somehow it mutated over into rising for the judge who he claims are servants of the public inside of institutions paid for by taxes were charge on everything we buy, have done, or will do.

As far as the Cal Board was concerned he had not signed up to be a legal tax collector (he didn’t charge his customers taxes), therefore he needed to. He saw it as long as he hadn’t signed the legal document binding him to do so he was not going to.

Over the course of 3 years letters of threats and rebuttals occurred between the two. He had one request: show him the law where it stated he had to sign up in order to do so. They never did. I didn’t believe him, so I went to the library and called them myself asking where I could look to find a law stating I had to sign up with them to start a business. They replied with a question "Are you affiliated with _______ ______ _____ the video store owner?" I stated no, they went on to provide me with sections of California Law that I could find it in. I followed their instructions, but found something completely different and puzzling, but no single law.

One night I was sitting up by his desk, when 6 men in suits came in with one US Marshall. They walked around his store looked in the back to see if anyone was there and told me to get out.

It turns out the men were agents from the California State Board of Equalization accompanied with a Marshall. I stood outside and watched them put him in a van and take off. I asked who they were and where he was going one of them replied "This isn’t your affair; keep it that way"

What happened to him there I only have his words to go by so I won’t go into that. I do know this he lost his store. It showed me right or wrong going against this is not the thing to do if someone wants a hassle free life.

Personally I have had a situation happen with the IRS that’s has led me to believe most of us are being had. There are a large number of veterans in my same situation (medically discharged from combat related injuries) that are discovering the same thing.

I’ve made the decision not to go against the system. There are millions of Americans out there who are supposedly legally not paying income taxes (but donating recorded funds to where they have documentation of where and what they're donation is being used for (local police, national forest, military relief fund, etc) that’s asking for trouble even though it may be the right thing to do, I don’t know.

I want a family, I have goals of owning large acres of land, and a few other things that even if there is something to this its in my best interest to learn how to play the game and make it work for me as much as possible.

I guess the bottom line for me is this: I believe were all equal and we all have tools to do great things. If would come to someday learn that there is a group of individuals collecting money off the hard work of the American people; just because they feel they are elevated to do so; it would feel me with rage.

Areas such as this I have to take in cycles, because I’ve come to learn that every time I dig to learn, I finding things that really don’t make me feel any better.

Macheath · 07-15-2003, 12:35 AM

Here's a little layman's info on the Fed and who owns it:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a951124b.html

Quote:

Dear Cecil:

I'm a 9 to 5 fixed income kinda guy who cares about his family, nation, and world. I overheard some of my levelheaded millionaire bosses talking about how the Federal Reserve is a private institution owned by individual banks. Isn't our bank our bank? Please tell me this is not happening to my country. --Rob Khan, Chicago

Cecil replies:

You're not going to like this, Rob, but here are the facts. Fact number one: the Federal Reserve System (hereinafter the Fed), although created by Congress, is answerable not to the public but to itself. The system is nominally controlled by member banks, i.e., all national banks plus some state banks, but real power rests with the board of governors in Washington. Fact number two: the Fed's chairman (currently Alan Greenspan) and board of governors are appointed for long terms by the president but can't be removed by him and don't report to him or anybody else. Fact number three: it was done that way for your own good.

Ha, you say. If this were really a democracy, the Fed would be a public agency just like the post office. Hmm, maybe you begin to see what the Fed's inventors were up to. (Cecil realizes that strictly speaking the postal service itself is no longer a public agency. Don't distract me.) One may make the argument that we need the Fed because we're a democracy

Truth is, the Fed was purposely insulated from the petty concerns of the public, including, to be blunt, whether they can afford to eat. "It's made complex so nobody will understand it," one insider told me. The Fed's chief aim is the stability of the banking system and the dollar and, by extension, the U.S. economy. Were it otherwise, politicians would be tempted to manipulate federal monetary policy for their own gain. For example, an incumbent president might lower interest rates in an election year to boost the economy temporarily and improve his chances of re-election, even if it meant higher inflation down the road.

But that's the least of it. Cecil on occasion hears from some genius who thinks he's come up with the solution to the national debt: print enough money to pay the whole thing off! This idea is, of course, completely nuts. If you double the amount of money in circulation without increasing the amount of underlying wealth, all you've done is make your currency worth half as much. Nonetheless governments all over the world (including the U.S. in pre-Fed days) have pulled stunts like this repeatedly, setting off runaway inflation and wrecking their economies. The Fed's ingenious system of monetary controls means it can't happen here, at least not as easily.

In short, you should be grateful. But of course you're not, because the whole thing reeks of elitism. All I can suggest is that if you don't like it, you visit Russia or Argentina or any number of other Fedless countries whose money was rendered worthless by hyperinflation. Granted these are extreme cases, but they illustrate what's at stake.

I don't mean to exaggerate the Fed's independence. Alan Greenspan is called upon to testify before Congress periodically, and the system he heads would not long survive if it led the nation over a cliff. Nor is the Fed unique. A more or less autonomous central bank is a feature of virtually all capitalist economies. There's a lot about such banks, just like there's a lot about capitalism, that offends the sensitive soul. But they do have a compensating advantage, namely that most of the time they work.

--CECIL ADAMS

Sun Tzu · 07-15-2003, 03:38 AM

www.pushhamburger.com/infernal.htm

Fact number three: it was done that way for your own good.

There is intelligence in this without doubt; can you see anything else?

The Fed's ingenious system of monetary controls means it can't happen here, at least not as easily.

"I just wanted to speak to you about something from the Internal Revenue Code. It is the last sentence of section 509A of the code and it reads: 'For purposes of paragraph 3, an organization described in paragraph 2 shall be deemed to include an organization described in section 501C-4, 5, or 6, which would be described in paragraph 2 if it were an organization described in section 501C-3.' And that's just one sentence out of those fifty-seven feet of books."
--Ronald Reagan

In short, you should be grateful. But of course you're not, because the whole thing reeks of elitism. All I can suggest is that if you don't like it, you visit Russia or Argentina or any number of other Fedless countries whose money was rendered worthless by hyperinflation. Granted these are extreme cases, but they illustrate what's at stake.

Stop bitching, shut up, do as Im told and like it eh? Well in a way other than voicing what I have here; I am. I never thought money should be printed at a greater rate I know a little of the science behind world commerce: the difference between paper and coin; so with this choice of article is it in you opinion extending a higher record of accountablilty to the public would do more damage than good?

I know your not here Macheath, and I dont have a replacement system concieved but from THE LITTLE I truly know; its on the back of my mind when I tally how many hours are for Uncle Sam. Paying my dues isnt this issue. As far as reeking of elitism; in the end it doesnt truly matter what kind of the people sit on the board because the one element that defines the parameters of any safeguard put into place is $$$

Thanks for the input.

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws.

The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class. The great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages will bear its burden without complaint.

--Rothschild Brothers of London

seretogis · 07-15-2003, 08:11 AM

The Federal Reserve is run as a business because business ideals (maximize "profit", minimize costs) help our economy and the strength of our dollar. Ultimately, every organization that operates out of the US answers to the Federal Government, though. If the Fed. Reserve were to do something incredibly stupid that would potentially ruin our economy, they would be shut down.

As for the IRS and income taxes, they should be abolished and a better (and constitutional) method of federal tax should take its place.

View Poll Results: The IRS is
everything the US government promotes it to be- legal and nessesary	2	22.22%
a collection service for the Federal Reserve Bank- a privately owned entity	6	66.67%
something else	1	11.11%
who cares as long as I get my paycheck each week, firemen, and police Im happy	0	0%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

07-14-2003, 04:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Internal Revenue Service= whose internal? Over the years I’ve found myself thrown back and forth over what I believe happens in the US government. When I tell myself to believe the most logical things; I see illogical actions happen. This isn’t by anyone person or party, but the system in general. There are many subjects; too many to cover in one thread, so my focus on this one is the IRS. Rather than state what I believe and provide links, I’ll post from an inquisitive point of view to see what information others have. I’m not attempting to convince anyone of anything, but hopefully learn something. I’ve “heard” that the IRS is a collection agency for the Federal Reserve Bank. I’ve also read/heard the Federal Reserve Bank is not part of the US government but a privately own institution. It’s been said that the parties who control the Federal Reserve Bank are people of low integrity. Is it true that income taxes were voluntary prior to WWII? The country obviously needs money to run and defend itself, but does the current system of collecting taxes lining the pockets of people that have no right or constitutionally legal cause to be doing such a thing? That would make us slaves in a sense. From personal experience (if anyone still has PLEASE scan it) I remember reading the instructional booklet that comes with the 1040 in 1993. In the first few sentences it stated that annually thousands of Americans voluntarily pay their taxes, after that year they took that line out. Any information is greatly appreciated. Here’s one link I’ll submit. (I will comment on that I don’t have enough information on the Federal Observer to say what it promotes is the truth, however the speeches given by American politicians it provides I do comprehend to be factual.) http://www.federalobserver.com/words.php?words=2718 __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

07-14-2003, 08:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	Here's what I remember from my civics class. Before the Civil War, taxes were collected by the gov't through tariffs and on taxes on things like gold, silver and alcohol. During the Civil War, however, the nation's debt was too large to be covered by the old system of collecting money and an income tax was instituted to bring the books back square. I know there were several different income taxes proposed, but income taxes were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in the 1890's (94-95?) I've read that it was because the income tax wasn't apportioned to the states as the Constitution requires, but the 16th amendment clearly states that it doesn't need to. Maybe I'm not reading that right, or clearly understanding it. When the income tax amendment was ratified in 1913, the Federal Reserve was set up and income tax became mandatory. I'm pretty sure that the I.R.S. is a goverment agency and not directly connected to the Fed, which isn't under the auspices of the federal goverment. That's why, even though Greenspan had to get Congressional approval to serve, he is under no obligation to "answer" to them. This isn't the first and only Federal Bank. There were two other 'National Banks' in the early part of our history, that were run by some unscrupulous fellows. The charter on the second National Bank ran out during Andrew Jackson's term. Jackson's opinion of the bank wasn't high to begin with. He seen it as rich white folks' holding rich white folks' money and helping rich white folks' with their troubles. I've read that 3/4 of the states are needed to ratify an amendment to the Constitution. The argument I've seen a lot of says that there wasn't enough to ratify it so the gov't "ratified" it anyway through Congress, which I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to do, which makes the 16th amendment unconstitutional. So somewhere there are states that haven't ratified the 16th amendment for income taxes, but they make us pay anyway. I can't find anything that isn't blatantly Anti-tax or Pro-tax. The closest I've come is this website http://www.unclefed.com/Audit-Proofing/step4-2b.html It lists court cases that you can research to verify if ol' Uncle Fed is reporting correctly. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously. Last edited by guthmund; 07-14-2003 at 09:05 PM..

07-14-2003, 10:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Thanks for the info and the links I have some research to do. This interest started about 7 years ago. I had a friend that owned his own video store. He had not signed on with the California State Board of Equalization. After 2 1/2 years of being in business they started demanding his cooperation. He was one of those individuals that had the Constitution memorized word for word with one hanging on his wall. He practically had the entire collection of Blackstone Law books memorized as well. He didn’t have a driver's license (something about the right to travel and him not being a vehicle of commerce) and the only thing he had for a plate on his car was Sovereign American. Needless to say I never wanted to ride with him, but he would always beat any traffic ticket surprisingly. I went and watched him once and when they said all rise (for the judge) he was the only one who didn’t. (He says that practice was done in the puritan days for when the Bible was brought in and somehow it mutated over into rising for the judge who he claims are servants of the public inside of institutions paid for by taxes were charge on everything we buy, have done, or will do. As far as the Cal Board was concerned he had not signed up to be a legal tax collector (he didn’t charge his customers taxes), therefore he needed to. He saw it as long as he hadn’t signed the legal document binding him to do so he was not going to. Over the course of 3 years letters of threats and rebuttals occurred between the two. He had one request: show him the law where it stated he had to sign up in order to do so. They never did. I didn’t believe him, so I went to the library and called them myself asking where I could look to find a law stating I had to sign up with them to start a business. They replied with a question "Are you affiliated with _______ ______ _____ the video store owner?" I stated no, they went on to provide me with sections of California Law that I could find it in. I followed their instructions, but found something completely different and puzzling, but no single law. One night I was sitting up by his desk, when 6 men in suits came in with one US Marshall. They walked around his store looked in the back to see if anyone was there and told me to get out. It turns out the men were agents from the California State Board of Equalization accompanied with a Marshall. I stood outside and watched them put him in a van and take off. I asked who they were and where he was going one of them replied "This isn’t your affair; keep it that way" What happened to him there I only have his words to go by so I won’t go into that. I do know this he lost his store. It showed me right or wrong going against this is not the thing to do if someone wants a hassle free life. Personally I have had a situation happen with the IRS that’s has led me to believe most of us are being had. There are a large number of veterans in my same situation (medically discharged from combat related injuries) that are discovering the same thing. I’ve made the decision not to go against the system. There are millions of Americans out there who are supposedly legally not paying income taxes (but donating recorded funds to where they have documentation of where and what they're donation is being used for (local police, national forest, military relief fund, etc) that’s asking for trouble even though it may be the right thing to do, I don’t know. I want a family, I have goals of owning large acres of land, and a few other things that even if there is something to this its in my best interest to learn how to play the game and make it work for me as much as possible. I guess the bottom line for me is this: I believe were all equal and we all have tools to do great things. If would come to someday learn that there is a group of individuals collecting money off the hard work of the American people; just because they feel they are elevated to do so; it would feel me with rage. Areas such as this I have to take in cycles, because I’ve come to learn that every time I dig to learn, I finding things that really don’t make me feel any better. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

07-15-2003, 03:38 AM	#7 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	www.pushhamburger.com/infernal.htm Fact number three: it was done that way for your own good. There is intelligence in this without doubt; can you see anything else? The Fed's ingenious system of monetary controls means it can't happen here, at least not as easily. "I just wanted to speak to you about something from the Internal Revenue Code. It is the last sentence of section 509A of the code and it reads: 'For purposes of paragraph 3, an organization described in paragraph 2 shall be deemed to include an organization described in section 501C-4, 5, or 6, which would be described in paragraph 2 if it were an organization described in section 501C-3.' And that's just one sentence out of those fifty-seven feet of books." --Ronald Reagan In short, you should be grateful. But of course you're not, because the whole thing reeks of elitism. All I can suggest is that if you don't like it, you visit Russia or Argentina or any number of other Fedless countries whose money was rendered worthless by hyperinflation. Granted these are extreme cases, but they illustrate what's at stake. Stop bitching, shut up, do as Im told and like it eh? Well in a way other than voicing what I have here; I am. I never thought money should be printed at a greater rate I know a little of the science behind world commerce: the difference between paper and coin; so with this choice of article is it in you opinion extending a higher record of accountablilty to the public would do more damage than good? I know your not here Macheath, and I dont have a replacement system concieved but from THE LITTLE I truly know; its on the back of my mind when I tally how many hours are for Uncle Sam. Paying my dues isnt this issue. As far as reeking of elitism; in the end it doesnt truly matter what kind of the people sit on the board because the one element that defines the parameters of any safeguard put into place is $$$ Thanks for the input. Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws. The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class. The great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages will bear its burden without complaint. --Rothschild Brothers of London __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 07-15-2003 at 03:41 AM..

07-14-2003, 06:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
XXXs Upright	I'm not sure when taxes became mandatory, but the ability of the Federal government to collect taxes pretty much comes from the 16th amendment, which I think was passed in 1913. There were taxes before this. Income taxes were imposed to pay for the Civil War, but I believe were cancelled after (not positive). 16th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. To me, this means they have a constitutional right to collect taxes. I may be wrong, but I don't think the IRS is part of the Fed. The fed sets monetary policy (interest rates and the like). I'm not really sure they have anything to do with taxes. I'm not really sure if this is anything you were interested in, but here it is anyway. Keep in mind, the article you linked to is a speech from 1934. What once MAY have been true, may have changed. Why not go to http://www.federalreserve.gov to learn about the Fed?

07-14-2003, 07:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
oldman2003 Crazy Location: Over the Rainbow	If you really want to get confussed, check out this link.... http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/htm/intro.htm

07-15-2003, 08:11 AM	#8 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	The Federal Reserve is run as a business because business ideals (maximize "profit", minimize costs) help our economy and the strength of our dollar. Ultimately, every organization that operates out of the US answers to the Federal Government, though. If the Fed. Reserve were to do something incredibly stupid that would potentially ruin our economy, they would be shut down. As for the IRS and income taxes, they should be abolished and a better (and constitutional) method of federal tax should take its place. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames