Cimarron29414

will,

I think he's implying that the prosecution of statutory rape would increase.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

aceventura3

My statement is based on the assumption that - if an adult male takes or can take a teenager to PP and pays for her abortion no questions asked, and if that male is inclined to have sex with teenage girls that behavior will continue. However, if there are consequences to such behavior we may be able to end it or prevent it.

I have stated that I want to see the data. I have stated that I do not trust PP - that is my feeling, what my gut tells me - I have made that clear, repeatedly. I have stated that I prefer comprehensive medical care for children, suggesting that the PP model is inadequate and at the very least may need some changes even if funding continues.

If you call what I have posted "grasping at straws" so be it, and if you disagree with my point of view, simply say that. But your pretense is that there is not a legitimate point of view different than yours. I think I understand the trade-offs and that there is no easy solution that works perfectly in all circumstances. Again, I error on the side of parental, guardian or court involvement.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

First off, this is strangely authoritarian. I know you to be a free-market capitalist and, while not necessarily a libertarian, you have libertarian leanings. In this case, however, you're erring on the side of authority and I'm not sure why. Why should court involvement, a.k.a. the state, be the first place this goes to?

Second, and perhaps more importantly, I have no idea how you can claim your null hypothesis is mistrust. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Planned Parenthood doesn't seem to have done anything to lose your trust based on your statements here. Why is it they're guilty until proven innocent?

aceventura3

I believe in protecting children. I believe we all have a moral obligation to protect children. If that is contradictory to my other views, I can live with it and accept any charge or claim of having a double standard. I do not have similar sympathy or compassion for able adults ( exceptions are truly disabled and the elderly). I do support temporary safety nets for adults and charitable giving by choice. I am not an anarchist and I see a role for government.

That is my nature. I don't trust anyone or anything until I have reason to trust - some people are the opposite. In addition I look at systems to see how the systems are set up incentive wise. In the case of PP their system of tolerance (no questions, almost no conditions for service) is a system with incentives to hide information that may be needed to protect children. Again, I would like to see objective data that can show the real net cost or benefit of PP to children. And, no - I would not trust data direct from PP - I would need data from an outside independent source.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

So does the medical community.

In opposing mandatory parental notification for girls requesting access to prescribed contraceptives, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians, and the National Medical Association do not support mandatory parental notification laws.

"...Ultimately, the health risks to adolescents are so impelling that legal barriers in deference to parental involvement should not stand in the way of needed care," the groups said.

(editorial comment.....in numerous discussions, you appear to trust editorials/columns you read in IBD, WSJ, etc or studies from conservative/libertarian think tanks with an agenda that support you position despite the fact that they are not independent unbiased sources. Trust based on ideology, not independence?)

You have yet to provide any source that PPH's system is one of "tolerance (no questions, almost no conditions for service)..."

Putting that unsubstantiated allegation aside and addressing a core issue instead, in 1999, the University of Wisconsin surveyed sexually active girls in Wisconsin who received sexual health care at 33 Planned Parenthood clinics.

In an additional sample that was included in the study, "99% of adolescent girls in our additional sample who would stop using sexual health care services with parental notification indicated that they would continue having sexual intercourse....Given this information, requiring parental notification for obtaining prescribed contraceptives would likely increase unintended pregnancies, abortions, and out-of-wedlock births. "

ace ..it is not a leap to further conclude that "potentially increasing teen pregnancies and the spread of STDs" will result in higher societal costs down the road.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

filtherton

Speaking as a parent, I would hope that my children were comfortable enough with me to let me know when they needed sex-related health care, however, I do recognize that even if I were the best parent in the world, it is entirely likely that they might feel too uncomfortable, embarrassed or independent to actually do so. This is why I support the right of the qualified, medical professionals who work at organizations like Planned Parenthood to provide their services without my parental consent.

I know that as a teenager I made use of the local free STD clinic when I needed to verify a "clean bill of health" for my own peace of mind and the peace of mind of a new lady friend. I likely wouldn't have gone had I needed permission from my parents (though the desire to get laid just might have overpowered the desire to keep my getting laid a secret from my parents).

Derwood

Just catching up on this thread, so let me get this straight:

a) GOP wants to get rid of Planned Parenthood, which distributes free birth control and helps the poor deal with unplanned pregnancies

b) GOP wants to make abortion illegal

c) GOP wants to get rid of (or massively cut) welfare and unemployment benefits

In other words, all out war on the lower classes? Is their utopian world view one where we have thousands and thousands of new babies born into poverty while also making it harder and harder for the impoverished to survive?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Baraka_Guru

Derwood, they could just join the military to get health care and benefits.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Paq

Derwood: nail meets head.

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Live.

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Willravel

I'm still pretty sure the endgame for the neoconservatives and their ilk is a global, oligarchical corporatocracy; a true plutocracy.

Anxst

I entirely concur. I can't imagine what else they would be moving towards with the changes they keep pushing for.

__________________
Don't mind me. I'm just releasing the insanity pressure from my headvalves.

aceventura3

How did they arrive at that conclusion?


I have never had a problem with providing addition support of items I have shared from the various publications that I routinely read. I often read the footnotes and look at their source data. The issue here is we never get beyond the superficiality of the source being "conservative".

Do you need proof? Are you suggesting PP does not have a system of tolerance?

When will you ever simply read what I write. I do not dispute that PP provides beneficial services. My question is what is the net impact? My concern is, should some of there policies change regarding children if funding continues. I am not attacking PP simply because they provide abortion services. The questions and concerns I present are shared by all reasonable people.

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

I have a 13 year-old son who will be 14 in a few months. At various times our family doctor has prescribed medication for him and he has told us that he should not eat certain foods or combine the prescribed medication with other drugs. He also tells us what to look for and how to determine if follow up is needed. My son would not be able to manage this information on his own - so if he goes to a PP clinic, how would they know what they need to know regarding his medical history?

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

a) PP can exist without government funding.
b) Some see it as a form of murder.
c) The welfare state has created a permanent underclass that has perpetuated a cycle dependence.

Some see the GOP approach as helpful to the lower classes. We can have a system that has compassion for the poor without big disincentives for responsible behavior.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

I know a number of people with conservatives that have been or are poor. Including being aligned with a, b and c. Why would that be true?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Are you afraid that your son would be the first confused teenager to ever set foot in a PP? I suspect, and this is just my gut feeling, that they might have experience providing medical care to confused teenagers.

Personally, I'd be more afraid that my son was going to accidentally knock someone up, or that if he did knock someone up, that he'd lack access to resources because he wasn't comfortable coming to me.

aceventura3

I do not think a clinic should be providing medical services to minors without having access to the child's medical records and medical history. For example:

Latex Allergy Symptoms

What if the child is given latex condemns and they have an allergy to latex. Is PP going to know? The symptoms can be very confusing to a child, would they diagnose the allergy properly?

I am not afraid - my point is that minors are considered minors for a reason. Serious medical issues, I just used the latex condom allergy example above to illustrate a broader point and I don't fear the broad and general use of latex condoms, require comprehensive care in my view for children in particular.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

So you're saying that a teenager won't know that condoms are made of latex and/or that the providers of those condoms won't think to ask that teenager if he has a widely known-about condition which would render use of those condoms problematic?

mixedmedia

Did I miss the story that claimed Planned Parenthood is giving bad medical care to teenagers?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

aceventura3

The broader point is related to comprehensive medical care. Some children have issues that may have a material impact on how medical treatment should be administered.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 PM ----------

I got it now. My point is a joke to you folks and not to be taken seriously. F the parents they don't need to be involved let PP handle it, after all they are professionals.

If PP makes an error should a parent like me be able to sue them out of business and pursue criminal prosecution - because this whole issue is just in Ace's imagination and would never happen anyway? Is that it?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ring

It's like Reagan all over again.
I was 21 years old when Reagan was elected.
Within days of him taking office, I noticed my local Planned Parenthood office
had a lot of empty pamphlet slots & the nice nurses were really pissed off,
but weren't allowed to say why.

filtherton

I understand your concerns, however, I think they are a bit irrational taken as anything but a thought experiment. PP has been around for decades. If they had a track record of providing poor care then it would likely be evident by now.

It isn't a joke. It's more like sophistry.

aceventura3

To the broader point, misdiagnoses of children is sophistry?

Again, just as an example to illustrate a point, I am not in the medical field - school officials jumped all over the Ritalin bandwagon without any regard for the individual needs of the child. Only strong parents willing to take the bull by the horns and fight for their child were able to overcome this "just give the kid Ritalin" routine. I do not want some overworked bureaucratic type person be they work for PP or any other government supported organization controlling my son's medical care without my involvement. For kids who have parents that don't care at least have a court appointed person reviewing the situation.

The Top Misdiagnosis in Children is a ADHD | CLINIC FOR CHILDREN

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Is that the best distraction you could come up with?

mixedmedia

So in your estimation, your made-up scenarios are more relevant than the absence of an actual history of malpractice at Planned Parenthood? And we're supposed to just fall in line with that because it's your point?

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

And you can sue any doctor for malpractice on the behalf of your child anywhere, at any time. Why would a PP doctor be any different?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

aceventura3

I gave my opinion, ignore it. I got the message that some consider my view on this subject a joke. Understand that I am a parent, I am posting here, but perhaps more than you know share my concerns and you will never hear from them. But, if you listen, perhaps the concerns could be addressed and PP and everyone else going go on with a satisfactory solution. But, the assumption that it is just a joke is going to lead to no PP public funding, yes it is that serious to some of us.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

In my initial post on this subject, I said I wanted to see the data to understand if there was a net benefit or a net cost to society. I also, suggested that if public funding continue perhaps some simple modification to how they administer care is in order. Not hardly an extreme position, but we already concluded that most here see my concerns as a joke, so is your post just to further mock my concerns?

The point is that PP can go out of business because of an end to public funding or they can go out of business because they get sued out of business. I would think people with a real concern for PP would not want either to happen. And wouldn't it be rather simple to make some modifications to materially reduce the risk of PP being sued out of existence. Perhaps, based on my concerns responsible people would want to sit down and look at what is being done and make it better for everyone. This attitude - that it is just a joke or that conservatives just hate poor people thing - is not going to benefit anyone.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

mixedmedia

Again, so Planned Parenthood's actual history as a credible provider of medical services is irrelevant?

I'm not trying to make your position into a joke. You don't need me to make your position a joke. You're trying to use fictional 'what if' scenarios to cast doubt on an organization that hasn't done anything to deserve it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cimarron29414

filth and mm,

I think we can agree that an abortion does carry medical risks - it is a procedure which can lead to complications. Under "normal" medical procedures, a parent must sign all sorts of consent forms before even a small operation on a minor. I think we can agree that both of these statements are fact.

So, I do share some of Ace's concerns, as a parent, that someone gets to cut on my kid without my knowledge or consent - but only if it's her cooter. Anything else, and I have to sign 400 documents. I don't know, something just seems wrong about that.

I get the whole "daddy's little girl can't tell daddy that she's a hussy and got knocked up because daddy will take back her 325i" part of it....or worse, daddy kills daddy's little girl and her boyfriend for breaking the laws of baby jesus. Sometimes, it is indeed better that daddy minds his own self-righteous business.

Again, I'm just talking about the fact that, at it's roots, it's still a medical procedure which carries risks and, perhaps, requires guardian consent. I know I'd want to kill the fucker that accidentally killed my daughter in a medical procedure I knew nothing about - just on the principle of the issue. I'm really torn about that part. What do you guys think about that part of it?

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

filtherton

Except that ace is talking about his son, who is hypothetically allergic to latex. Ace seems to think that the administrators at PP are in charge of doling out medical care, and that because they aren't doctors, but bureaucrats, they don't know that their patients sometimes have medical conditions that aren't related to their junk. This is fucking nuts.

I understand your concerns, which I maintain are distinct from Ace's as he's presented them. I think that all medical procedures have an element of risk. With particular regards to abortion, I expect that the risks of having one outside of a clinic are much higher than the risks of having one inside a clinic, and that the risks of having one inside a clinic are probably on par with the risks associated with removing wisdom teeth.

I am fine with my daughter taking on these risks without my consent, though I recognize that any situation that results in my daughter having an abortion is one I would like to avoid.

Cimarron29414

Yeah, I agree that it is generally better to have them (abortions) at PP than the proverbial back-alley.

I know it is an entirely emotional response. It's a much...much...milder version of the emotional response which motivates someone to propose a law enabling them to shoot their daughter's prospective abortion doctor!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Willravel

My little brother had a 325is. It's an outstanding car.

/threadjack

dc_dux

Ace's most recent concern was not about parental notification for abortions but notification for providing birth control.

I can only assume that he would prefer that teens with STDs not get treated, continue to have unprotected sex and spread the disease.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

Planned Parenthood is overwhelmingly about contraception and STD testing and treatment.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I do not believe their history as a credible provider of medical services is irrelevant. I simply do not take it for granted. I do not assume, as organizational behavior is concerned, that past behavior is the best predictor of current or future behavior. I think it is how incentives are aligned is a better predictor of current or future behavior. There are unlimited numbers of examples that support my view regarding this incentive theory.

Perhaps, the government can hire me to do an audit of PP operations. Or, someone who has seen an audit of their operations can share it here - and for the fourth time I repeat - in my gut I do not trust PP. I thought I have been making that clear. And, obviously PP doesn't need my trust and I understand if people here don't care.

But, for those willing to listen, perhaps putting the issue in perspective, even from a conservative point of view, most have no problem with PP that can not be addressed in a positive manner and would support continued funding.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

Dude, read. I said "bureaucratic type person". If you don't think a doctor can be a bureaucratic type person, that is f'ing nuts. But i am going to assume you just misread what was written.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace...what PP practices/services need addressing?

Parental notification for abortions?
Most states (35?) require parental notification or consent.

Parental notification for contraception or STD testing and treatment?
Which takes me back to the study I posted earlier....that if parental notification was required, most would refrain from treatment and continue having unprotected sex..

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

That is not productive. Raise a question or concern about PP = abortions in back allies. If you want to win the center understand that it includes the one or more deviations left of center and one or more deviation right of center - assuming the extremes are entrenched addressing legitimate issues and concerns is worth while - but the suggestion that I have no concern for the health of women who want abortion will cause resentment. You choose to offend a lot of people in your post.



---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

Again he proves that he has not read what I have posted. I understand the problem and I understand there is no perfect solution, which I clearly stated. I also said I would error on the side of parental notification, but that there may be other procedural changes that can be made that could satisfy all concerned parties.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

What changes?

Propose one rather than just bitching and making unsubstantiated claims about PP's practices that need fixing.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Any good manager is always reviewing and trying to improve practices and services. Outside of that general point:

What do they do with evidence of illegal behavior?
Who are they accountable to?
How do they measure their effectiveness?
How are complaints handled? I can imagine (again say what you will, but i look at incentives) a 16 year-old girl unwilling to talk to her parents/doctor/or any responsible adult having a problem at PP - what is she going to do? PP has every incentive to cover stuff up if it goes wrong - with that kind of incentive bad situations never ends well. Is this is a joke to you something not to be concerned about?

Most is not all.

I have seen a study that says that a large percentage of teens using contraception don't use it regularly and end up pregnant anyway. I will look for the study.

For what is worth, I live in a conservative "family" oriented area, I have a teenager and I interact with lots of parents many are conservative and some both conservative and religious - very few don't support the use of contraception by their sons and daughters. None want their teens engaging in sex but in 2011 - I bet on a national level very few parents hold the views that you suggest in your posts. Often surveys that does not support an ideology either does not get done or gets no publicity. That is why I often suggest that you get out of DC and interact with people outside the belt-way.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

I dont see any constructive solutions here.

I see more of the same questions based on pre-conceived (no pun intended) unsubstantiated assumptions or allegations of "questionable" practices.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Contacting a child's primary doctor and/or obtaining medical records before administering or providing any type of medical service. If the law will protected the family doctor but requires PP to take this step i imagine many parents could live with that short of direct notification. I am not an expert, but all the issues can be addressed one way or another to satisfy most common concerns outside of the legality of abortion issue.


All you had to do was ask, no need for drama. It is what some call civil discourse.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cimarron29414

I was responding to filth's post directly above mine which stated something to the effect that "having one at the clinic is better than one outside the clinic." Given those two choices, I agree with him. So, within context, I think you will realize I was not saying what you interpreted.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

aceventura3

I know you don't, because those were questions - not solutions.

I bet you are the type of person that would invest in Eron Corp. and hold until the end. Good luck with that attitude, you will need it. {added} to those who did not get the point, Enron was once a solid reputable company, but they changed and those who asked questions saw it.




---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 PM ----------

My apology to you.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace, I tried taking you seriously, but its like banging my head against the wall.
'
You ignore studies I post or deflect them with more questions, you offer unsubstantiated claims about PP practices, you ignore facts about PP....

And you conclude with some childish remark....just another deflection.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

filtherton

That's the problem with your random analogies, though. When you bring up ritalin as a problem because of over eager administrators and bureaucrats as a comparison to PP, it makes it seem like you aren't aware that bureaucrats aren't in charge of treatment at PP. You do know that they have licensed medical professionals, just like the folks at your doctor's office, right? It doesn't matter that they might act like bureaucrats sometimes. You probably act like a bureaucrat sometimes. Everybody probably acts like a bureaucrat sometimes in some vague sort of way.

I still think that your fears are misplaced. And that you've decided that this is an issue and no amount of talking will convince you otherwise.

This is a fairly gross oversimplification of political ideology as it actual exists. I don't think that it's meaningful to model it as a univariate, normally distributed, random variable. On top of that, I like how this discussion has now morphed into one where the pro-PP folk are now tasked with convincing everyone who may not like PP to like PP via convincing you to like PP.

Apparently, you are public opinion on PP.