Baraka_Guru

Kinda like the kettle not wanting the pot to call it black?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

For the record, I'm not making any assumptions about the shooter's motives. I do think that it is telling that Palin et al have pulled their crosshair themed advertisments. Perhaps they realize in retrospect that that type of imagery is in reality more closely associated with fucking lunatics than it is with actual patriots.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Exactly. It's all fun and games to pretend you're willing to fight back against the tyranny of your elected representatives when they vote for shit you don't like. But when someone actually does it, the it's all "Haruumphh, well! We didn't mean it like that! You're clearly twisting our overly militant, superficially patriotic, thinly veiled calls for violent action around to make it sound like we were calling for violent action. We were just trying to sound serious and tough! We were just trying to co-opt respect for our country's founders and use it to advance our completely contradictory political goals."

It's odd that they aren't happier that the representative got shot. If their rhetoric is any indication, this type of thing would seem to fit right in with how they want things to happen.

Willravel

That's not how it works, Dunedan. The Minutemen are organizationally like the Tea Party. There's no true organization with one leadership and definite single membership. If you went out with a lawn chair and binoculars, you were a Minuteman. MAD was one Minuteman organization in the same way (organizationally speaking) that the Tea Party Patriots, Tea Party Express, the 9/12 Project, and the Tea Party Coalition are all the Tea Party. Don't try to rewrite history.
Andrew Joseph Stack III was a small government anti-tax libertarian. What liberal by any reasonable definition would be against any taxation? Anyway, he was clearly a ticked-off populist, which puts him well inside the category I was describing.

I notice you didn't try to explain away Scott Roederm, Richard Poplawski, or Jim D. Adkisson.

flstf

It is hard to believe that some liberal politicians will still hold rallys with little or no security. It is almost naive to act as if the political hate talk will not result in some fringe elements eventually putting them in the crosshairs. Perhaps now they will realize that some may be inspired by today's news along with more hate talk to reload looking for a Second Amendment solution

Strange Famous

Ive seen some some posters online from Sarah Palin with gun sites over different cities, and a list of "targets" including this woman who was shot.

I dont know if its real or satire? If its real Palin must be finished?

Not that makes much difference to the dead.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Derwood

It was real. It was on Sarah Palin's Official PAC | SarahPAC - Sarah Palin's Official PAC (which went offline shortly after this news broke yesterday), and included 20 congressional seats that the Tea Party wanted to "take back" based on their votes on things like healthcare reform and taxation

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

dogzilla

Actually, I wrote 'liberal', not 'democrat'. The Weathermen were aligned with the liberal left.

I find all this outrage about a state map with targets in some spots rather interesting, especially since I have read far worse from some leaders on the left. You can't get more explicit that 'kill whitey'.

Maybe I just need to drink more liberal kool-aid.

The_Dunedan

Oh! Oh! I know! Since the "Palin Map" showed -states- with crosshairs, but a Democratic attack ad actually put crosshairs on a guy's head!? (Target: J.D. Hayworth (Rep.))
http://coaching.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...9785f26970b-pi
http://www.espressopundit.com/2010/0...targeting.html

Except that -is- how it works, and no, the Minutemen are not organizationally like the Tea Party. The Minutemen have/had a roster of members, a formalized leadership, etc. They were/are a distinct and organized group. So were Citizen's Border Patrol, etc. The two people known to have been responsible for that attack were thrown out of the Minutemen, formally and "for cause," because of their insistence on violence. They were the "INLA," if you like, to the Minuteman's OIRA; an extremely radicalized splinter movement that the original group which ejected them wanted nothing to do with. Stop trying to rewrite history.

No, he was not. We have had this discussion before, and you are wrong now as you were wrong then. Remember that whole "Zero Aggresson Principle," and how it's the defining characteristic of libertarianism?

Anarcho-Socialists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, various sorts of Georgist, any of these ring a bell?

Wait! I thought you said he was a libertarian? How can he possibly have been both? Do you even know what a populist -is-, and what positions they've taken in the past? I'll give you a starting point from my own native home, one Huey P. Long.

Because I see no need to expend energy defending the indefensible nor explaining the inexplicable. They were right-wing nutballs, case closed.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Strange Famous

Well... I guess the reaction here is probably similar to how it is across America. Perhaps I am partly guilty of it as well... but I could not really believe the gun sight target adverts I had seen could be real (and they are as moronic and as dangerous whichever political movement uses this kind of symbolism)

But while people on in the Centre and Right argue about who is to blame for winding up the fevered mind of the killer and claim media bias and so on, people seem to notice not so much that a 9 year old kid and others are dead, others dying or wounded.

_

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

You mean, generally, libertarian socialists? They're not against taxation, per se, but would rather taxes be made equitable via a single tax on the value of land. Though most socialists are supportive of progressive taxation.

Can you explain to me why or how a libertarian cannot take a populist position?

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

This is also deserving of outrage. We should be outraged about violence as a part of political discourse regardless of the political stripe. Violence neuters politics and turns it into sensationalism, often feeding off of militaristic nationalism if not jingoism.

I don't find the outrage interesting; I find it necessary, considering America is the kind of country that requires it before change can happen. America is not a country that responds to much below the threshold of anger.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Rekna

How did this guy get so many shots off? It has been preached on this board over and over that in states that have very lax gun control laws (say Arizona) if someone were to start shooting there would be 20 other people grabbing their concealed weapons and shooting back before the damage was done. Why didn't this happen? Also how much less damage would have been done if he didn't have the formerly illegal extended clip?

samcol

i'm kinda amazed at the damage he was able to do. police are apparently looking for a 2nd suspect though.

the damage would of probably been less if he didn't have the extended magazine. however, when they were 'illegal' you could still get them very easily so i think it's a moot point.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Slims

Typically rallies, protests, etc. are off-limits for concealed carry. Most people abide by the law.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Zeraph

Wow this story hits close to home, literally. Like an hour from my place.

Plan9- Ok you win, shit does go down in/near grocery stores....


This was my exact thought too. He got around 20 people. Shot the congresswoman through the head (I'm amazed she survived so far with a 9mm to the head). It was in an open place (people could scatter easily). He must have been an amazing shot for a 22 year old.

samcol

YouTube - giffords2's Channel

Check out her two subscriptions...

Why would she of been subscribed to her shooters channel and he wasn't subscribed to hers?

Very weird although I don't know when or why she subscribed.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Zeraph

Maybe it was after the fact, husband or kid or staff or something uses same account and wanted to look up the stuff but didn't think of the odd ramifications.

matthew330

It's clear to me reading through this thread that many of you don't give two shits about this congresswoman or anyone else who dies or was injured. This tragedy is an opportunity for continuation of this ridiculous political effort at getting Fox news, or Rush Limbaugh, or whatever other non like-minded media off the air. Keith Olberman within a half hour of the event wasn't man enough to point to any specifics but blamed “right wing radio personalities” for this. Sad that he knows his audience is that impressionable. Sad that's what he (and you) really care about. What is it?......”marginalizing the other”.

It's an opportunity for liberals to control the language of your opposition. Please explain to me how using perfectly acceptable metaphors like “crosshairs”, “aiming for”, “in my sights” are off limits now (for the “other) because some random individual might be influenced to kill, but making movies about killing people you disagree with is considered art. There was nothing malicious about Palin's use of the crosshairs and you all know that. I know you haven't all been sleeping for the last decade either. You have seen/watched/been part of this political discourse your incorrectly attributing to this event, but I think you all know that as well. It's very calculated, and frankly disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I feel like you're all hoping this woman passes away so her funeral can be turned into a “we will win” affair ala Paul Wellstone , chasing republicans away who actually really care about her and her family.

roachboy

ok, matthew, that is quite possibly the funniest thing i've read in some time.
i don't quite know what to say.
i thought something would come to me but it's hard for the laughing.


btw i've seen a number of conservative talking heads working that exact talking point today. so really it's only people who subscribe to a politics the rhetoric of which banalizes violence as a way of dealing with political disagreement who really care about the humanity involved here.

it's be nauseating were i able to take it seriously. but i can't. this because it's nothing more or less than damage control from the neo-fascist set. what makes it funny is how maladroit it is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

matthew330

you have a strange sense of humor, but at least I know your capable of laughing.

Charlatan

I agree with this column below. It doesn't matter why he did it. The context in which it occurred is messed up. Political discourse in America is not what it should be and, as the article suggests, "America's political frequencies are full of violent static".

It doesn't matter why he did it...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

You must be referring to the people working suspiciously hard to steer the conversation away from factors which may have lead to this tragedy. It's a shame that denial can be so powerful when an ideology is tested against reality.

filtherton

I agree with the article too, charlie.

It is telling that the political forces which usually are the first to indefensibly politicize (see 9/11, taxes, death panels, gay marriage, the use of "holiday" instead of christmas, etc) are now suddenly calling for restraint. I'm sure if there were a way to politicize this in a way that would motivate certain voting blocs, they'd be all for it.

I don't care why the shooter did it. However, I also don't think it makes sense to view this assassination attempt outside the context of the society in which it occurred. One would expect certain elements on the right to celebrate this type of thing, given their gung-ho rhetoric about 2nd amendment solutions and tyranny and all that. The second amendment exists to ensure that patriots can protect themselves against government tyranny. This congresswoman participated in government tyranny. It all fits. It isn't out of the ordinary to expect shooters like this to come from the right, because extreme actions like this fit within the framework that certain elements on the right have created for themselves.

The fact that this type of thing doesn't happen more is only proof that this type of "patriot, blah blah, tyranny, blah blah" is usually nothing more than the self-soothing rantings of folks who feel impotent because they think society is leaving them behind.

Dammitall

I find this little tidbit particularly disturbing and unfortunate: Tea Party Group Blames 'Leftist' for Giffords Shooting - Garance Franke-Ruta - Politics - The Atlantic

Finger-pointing abounds everywhere, and politics don't go away.

__________________
If one million people replaced a two mile car trip once a week with a bike ride, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 50,000 tons per year. If one out of ten car commuters switched to a bike, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 25.4 million tons per year. [2milechallenge.com]

Baraka_Guru

Phillips talks about the "hard left" as though there is some means by which they have a voice that reaches the masses. Unfortunately, liberals in the U.S. sometimes find themselves being shouted down or ridiculed for being communists. I imagine the actual communists are rather marginalized. There is no Limbaugh or Beck equivalent among communists in America.

The biggest threat to the Tea Party movement is a good economy.

He should also decide if this shooter was among those on the hard left or if he was a liberal. Painting him a liberal is a tough sell. It's not often that champions of human rights, social justice, and tolerance go off the deep end like that. Anarchists? Revolutionaries? Perhaps.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

I'd say that anyone that feels marginalized and powerless regardless of political affiliation is what I get from that article. I also doesn't matter that it is America, Philippines, Israel, Beirut, Ethiopia, Senegal, Spain, etc. We seem shocked that it has happened in America, just like when we find corrupt politicians. It's not supposed to happen in America!

If you feel marginalized there is a chance that the seeds of action may take root and one may actually stop thinking or talking about it and actually act.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I think our country is better off for this fact. Our species is better off.

Anonymous Member

This never happens.

Openly Rooting for Revolution, The Left Calls For American Civil Unrest & Riots (Frances Fox Piven, Lib Talkers, Journalists, Van Jones, Rev Wright, English Protest Leader, etc)

Charlatan

"Openly rooting"?? Hardly. After watching that clip, what I saw was people describing a situation that is bubbling. There was no call to arms.

As above, I don't really care to point fingers. The rhetoric in the US is in a place it doesn't need to be. Those who are utilizing this language of violence need to take a little time and do some soul searching about the effect their language is having on the nation. It's not healthy.

This video is just another example (a poor one to be clear) of, "it's not just us that's doing it! See! They're doing it too." This is just as much part of the problem.

It doesn't help.

America needs to grow up.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dippin

Holy fake equivalency, batman. So a bunch of people, none with the same standing Palin and others have within the Republican party, say that a revolution might happen given increases in inequality, or that in the past civil unrest has led to progressive legislation, and that is the same as saying people should use their second amendment rights to stop congress? With some exceptions, those people weren't saying that people should rise up.

Marvelous Marv

Then this is your lucky day. You and your cronies described Bush as a "war criminal" and a "nazi." The movie "Death of a President" was about George W. Bush specifically. In 2008, Barack Obama said, "If they (meaning Republicans) bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."



See above.

"Dogzilla, are you now, or have you ever been, a poujadiste nutcase?"


Have you noticed that in this case, the liberals believe a PERSON (apparently Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh) killed people? Most times it's the fault of a sinister-looking firearm.



Oh, you mean like when Obama blames people who make over $250k for unemployment.

Wait, you mean the shooter broke the law? Pass another law, quick!

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

dogzilla

It wouldn't be the first time. Stokeley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright anyone?

ottopilot

And don't forget Al Gore's call for extreme measures because of government inaction on the global warming scam ... which spurs the Discovery Channel gunman to take "action".

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

samcol

here is Palin's crosshair picture. when i first heard about this i envisioned the reps faces with crosshairs over it. being that its just a picture of the states with the rep's name below, i can't take seriously anyone who would lay blame on Palin for this.

I think she's taking heat for this just because people are looking for people to blame other than the lone nut who shot the az rep and others.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Baraka_Guru

None of these people are liberals. And as far as I know, none of them shot anyone. Did they?

James Lee wasn't a liberal either.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

This is a quaint reductionist position you've taken. If only it were that simple.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ottopilot

James Lee was an Al Gore follower... the point is that he acted on his beliefs. Son of Sam said a dog told him to kill people. Regardless, both of these people were simply nuts. The AZ shooter's profile looks pretty run of the mill INSANE. Can we stick to facts, or is that straying too far from the agenda?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Baraka_Guru

Okay, here's a fact: Al Gore didn't put any cross-hairs on the Discovery Channel.

Also, if we were so hung up on facts, we'd also outline that Gore's call to action was about striving for clean energy rather than removing people from office using the imagery of cross-hairs.

And what about the novelist Daniel Quinn? Was he calling for removing people too?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dogzilla

Personally, probably not. However, they done at least as much as you accuse Sarah Palin of doing to incite people to violence.
Maybe not, but Al Gore certainly is. So if you're trying to blame Sarah Palin for the actions of one wacko then Al Gore gets the blame for one as well.

Baraka_Guru

Take a step or two back, please.

They aren't liberals. The original comment suggested that there were liberal nutjobs taking people out. I don't see these people as either.

This hurts my brain. It's a false equivalence that sets up a kind of pseudo–tu quoque. I haven't had any coffee yet. Cut me some slack.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dippin

Will people with the desire to play the fake equivalency card at least take the time to watch the "evidence" they present?

Death of a President was about what would happen if the president was assassinated, and the movie itself portrays a pretty bleak future after the shooting. It is as much a call for assassination as "the day after" was a call for nuclear war.

Now, of course there will the occasional nutjob on every political party.

But please, show me the liberal alternatives who hold similar positions that have said something similar to the following:

""I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. " Bachmann

"I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying, My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around?" Angle

"If ballots don't work, bullets will" Joyce Kaufman, radio host and chief of staff for rep Allen West.

dogzilla

Fine. Then tell me what faction of left of center they fall in. They weren't any type of right of center group, and they certainly have done their share to crank up the political rhetoric and incite people.