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Old 01-08-2011, 08:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton View Post
And? My point was that the folks whose political careers thrive because of their abilities to draw false yet politically appealing conclusions are now suddenly taken aback when others draw potentially false yet politically appealing conclusions.
Kinda like the kettle not wanting the pot to call it black?
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:32 PM   #42 (permalink)
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For the record, I'm not making any assumptions about the shooter's motives. I do think that it is telling that Palin et al have pulled their crosshair themed advertisments. Perhaps they realize in retrospect that that type of imagery is in reality more closely associated with fucking lunatics than it is with actual patriots.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
the problem for the right politically is that this highlights their rhetoric. it reframes it. THAT is the issue. conservative on the far right don't like being reframed. they want to control that aspect so they can say what and who they are, using some multi-kulti logic that they oppose to force their bizarre-o worldview onto others as if it were coherent, rational. but it's neither. it's just another form of neo-fascism. the palin-y tea party-y worldview is just another form of neo-fascism. when they control the frame, it's something else. every time they lose control of framing, the neo-fascism becomes clear. thats a problem if you are a neo-fascist and havent the integrity to embrace what you are.
Exactly. It's all fun and games to pretend you're willing to fight back against the tyranny of your elected representatives when they vote for shit you don't like. But when someone actually does it, the it's all "Haruumphh, well! We didn't mean it like that! You're clearly twisting our overly militant, superficially patriotic, thinly veiled calls for violent action around to make it sound like we were calling for violent action. We were just trying to sound serious and tough! We were just trying to co-opt respect for our country's founders and use it to advance our completely contradictory political goals."

It's odd that they aren't happier that the representative got shot. If their rhetoric is any indication, this type of thing would seem to fit right in with how they want things to happen.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:40 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
Except it wasn't "the Minutemen," it was two (possibly three) people who'd been THROWN OUT of the Minutemen some time prior, remember?
That's not how it works, Dunedan. The Minutemen are organizationally like the Tea Party. There's no true organization with one leadership and definite single membership. If you went out with a lawn chair and binoculars, you were a Minuteman. MAD was one Minuteman organization in the same way (organizationally speaking) that the Tea Party Patriots, Tea Party Express, the 9/12 Project, and the Tea Party Coalition are all the Tea Party. Don't try to rewrite history.
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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
Except that Mr. Stack's writings indicated a much closer identification with the radical Left than with any portion of the Right (the exception being his hatred for taxation and the IRS), remember?
Andrew Joseph Stack III was a small government anti-tax libertarian. What liberal by any reasonable definition would be against any taxation? Anyway, he was clearly a ticked-off populist, which puts him well inside the category I was describing.

I notice you didn't try to explain away Scott Roederm, Richard Poplawski, or Jim D. Adkisson.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It is hard to believe that some liberal politicians will still hold rallys with little or no security. It is almost naive to act as if the political hate talk will not result in some fringe elements eventually putting them in the crosshairs. Perhaps now they will realize that some may be inspired by today's news along with more hate talk to reload looking for a Second Amendment solution
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:59 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Ive seen some some posters online from Sarah Palin with gun sites over different cities, and a list of "targets" including this woman who was shot.

I dont know if its real or satire? If its real Palin must be finished?

Not that makes much difference to the dead.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:25 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Strange Famous View Post
Ive seen some some posters online from Sarah Palin with gun sites over different cities, and a list of "targets" including this woman who was shot.

I dont know if its real or satire? If its real Palin must be finished?

Not that makes much difference to the dead.
It was real. It was on Sarah Palin's Official PAC | SarahPAC - Sarah Palin's Official PAC (which went offline shortly after this news broke yesterday), and included 20 congressional seats that the Tea Party wanted to "take back" based on their votes on things like healthcare reform and taxation
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:37 AM   #47 (permalink)
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dogzilla---come on, pal. the weather underground was only associated with the democratic party in the red-baiting fever dreams of poujadiste nutcases. you wouldn't be one of them, would you?
Actually, I wrote 'liberal', not 'democrat'. The Weathermen were aligned with the liberal left.

I find all this outrage about a state map with targets in some spots rather interesting, especially since I have read far worse from some leaders on the left. You can't get more explicit that 'kill whitey'.

Maybe I just need to drink more liberal kool-aid.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:01 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I find all this outrage about a state map with targets in some spots rather interesting, especially since
Oh! Oh! I know! Since the "Palin Map" showed -states- with crosshairs, but a Democratic attack ad actually put crosshairs on a guy's head!? (Target: J.D. Hayworth (Rep.))
http://coaching.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...9785f26970b-pi
http://www.espressopundit.com/2010/0...targeting.html

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That's not how it works, Dunedan. The Minutemen are organizationally like the Tea Party.
Except that -is- how it works, and no, the Minutemen are not organizationally like the Tea Party. The Minutemen have/had a roster of members, a formalized leadership, etc. They were/are a distinct and organized group. So were Citizen's Border Patrol, etc. The two people known to have been responsible for that attack were thrown out of the Minutemen, formally and "for cause," because of their insistence on violence. They were the "INLA," if you like, to the Minuteman's OIRA; an extremely radicalized splinter movement that the original group which ejected them wanted nothing to do with. Stop trying to rewrite history.

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Andrew Joseph Stack III was a small government anti-tax libertarian.
No, he was not. We have had this discussion before, and you are wrong now as you were wrong then. Remember that whole "Zero Aggresson Principle," and how it's the defining characteristic of libertarianism?

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What liberal by any reasonable definition would be against any taxation?
Anarcho-Socialists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, various sorts of Georgist, any of these ring a bell?

Quote:
Anyway, he was clearly a ticked-off populist,
Wait! I thought you said he was a libertarian? How can he possibly have been both? Do you even know what a populist -is-, and what positions they've taken in the past? I'll give you a starting point from my own native home, one Huey P. Long.

Quote:
I notice you didn't try to explain away Scott Roederm, Richard Poplawski, or Jim D. Adkisson.
Because I see no need to expend energy defending the indefensible nor explaining the inexplicable. They were right-wing nutballs, case closed.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:13 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Well... I guess the reaction here is probably similar to how it is across America. Perhaps I am partly guilty of it as well... but I could not really believe the gun sight target adverts I had seen could be real (and they are as moronic and as dangerous whichever political movement uses this kind of symbolism)

But while people on in the Centre and Right argue about who is to blame for winding up the fevered mind of the killer and claim media bias and so on, people seem to notice not so much that a 9 year old kid and others are dead, others dying or wounded.

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Old 01-09-2011, 08:26 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
Anarcho-Socialists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, various sorts of Georgist, any of these ring a bell?
You mean, generally, libertarian socialists? They're not against taxation, per se, but would rather taxes be made equitable via a single tax on the value of land. Though most socialists are supportive of progressive taxation.

Quote:
Wait! I thought you said he was a libertarian? How can he possibly have been both? Do you even know what a populist -is-, and what positions they've taken in the past? I'll give you a starting point from my own native home, one Huey P. Long.
Can you explain to me why or how a libertarian cannot take a populist position?

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
Oh! Oh! I know! Since the "Palin Map" showed -states- with crosshairs, but a Democratic attack ad actually put crosshairs on a guy's head!? (Target: J.D. Hayworth (Rep.))
http://coaching.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...9785f26970b-pi
Arizona's Own Espresso Pundit: That's not targeting...THIS is Targeting (Comments Closed)
This is also deserving of outrage. We should be outraged about violence as a part of political discourse regardless of the political stripe. Violence neuters politics and turns it into sensationalism, often feeding off of militaristic nationalism if not jingoism.

I don't find the outrage interesting; I find it necessary, considering America is the kind of country that requires it before change can happen. America is not a country that responds to much below the threshold of anger.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:27 AM   #51 (permalink)
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How did this guy get so many shots off? It has been preached on this board over and over that in states that have very lax gun control laws (say Arizona) if someone were to start shooting there would be 20 other people grabbing their concealed weapons and shooting back before the damage was done. Why didn't this happen? Also how much less damage would have been done if he didn't have the formerly illegal extended clip?
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:40 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rekna View Post
How did this guy get so many shots off? It has been preached on this board over and over that in states that have very lax gun control laws (say Arizona) if someone were to start shooting there would be 20 other people grabbing their concealed weapons and shooting back before the damage was done. Why didn't this happen? Also how much less damage would have been done if he didn't have the formerly illegal extended clip?
i'm kinda amazed at the damage he was able to do. police are apparently looking for a 2nd suspect though.

the damage would of probably been less if he didn't have the extended magazine. however, when they were 'illegal' you could still get them very easily so i think it's a moot point.
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:29 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rekna View Post
How did this guy get so many shots off? It has been preached on this board over and over that in states that have very lax gun control laws (say Arizona) if someone were to start shooting there would be 20 other people grabbing their concealed weapons and shooting back before the damage was done. Why didn't this happen? Also how much less damage would have been done if he didn't have the formerly illegal extended clip?
Typically rallies, protests, etc. are off-limits for concealed carry. Most people abide by the law.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:45 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Wow this story hits close to home, literally. Like an hour from my place.

Plan9- Ok you win, shit does go down in/near grocery stores....


Quote:
Originally Posted by samcol View Post
i'm kinda amazed at the damage he was able to do. police are apparently looking for a 2nd suspect though.

the damage would of probably been less if he didn't have the extended magazine. however, when they were 'illegal' you could still get them very easily so i think it's a moot point.
This was my exact thought too. He got around 20 people. Shot the congresswoman through the head (I'm amazed she survived so far with a 9mm to the head). It was in an open place (people could scatter easily). He must have been an amazing shot for a 22 year old.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:48 PM   #55 (permalink)
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YouTube - giffords2's Channel

Check out her two subscriptions...

Why would she of been subscribed to her shooters channel and he wasn't subscribed to hers?

Very weird although I don't know when or why she subscribed.
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by samcol View Post
YouTube - giffords2's Channel

Check out her two subscriptions...

Why would she of been subscribed to her shooters channel and he wasn't subscribed to hers?

Very weird although I don't know when or why she subscribed.
Maybe it was after the fact, husband or kid or staff or something uses same account and wanted to look up the stuff but didn't think of the odd ramifications.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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It's clear to me reading through this thread that many of you don't give two shits about this congresswoman or anyone else who dies or was injured. This tragedy is an opportunity for continuation of this ridiculous political effort at getting Fox news, or Rush Limbaugh, or whatever other non like-minded media off the air. Keith Olberman within a half hour of the event wasn't man enough to point to any specifics but blamed “right wing radio personalities” for this. Sad that he knows his audience is that impressionable. Sad that's what he (and you) really care about. What is it?......”marginalizing the other”.

It's an opportunity for liberals to control the language of your opposition. Please explain to me how using perfectly acceptable metaphors like “crosshairs”, “aiming for”, “in my sights” are off limits now (for the “other) because some random individual might be influenced to kill, but making movies about killing people you disagree with is considered art. There was nothing malicious about Palin's use of the crosshairs and you all know that. I know you haven't all been sleeping for the last decade either. You have seen/watched/been part of this political discourse your incorrectly attributing to this event, but I think you all know that as well. It's very calculated, and frankly disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I feel like you're all hoping this woman passes away so her funeral can be turned into a “we will win” affair ala Paul Wellstone , chasing republicans away who actually really care about her and her family.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:57 PM   #58 (permalink)
 
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ok, matthew, that is quite possibly the funniest thing i've read in some time.
i don't quite know what to say.
i thought something would come to me but it's hard for the laughing.


btw i've seen a number of conservative talking heads working that exact talking point today. so really it's only people who subscribe to a politics the rhetoric of which banalizes violence as a way of dealing with political disagreement who really care about the humanity involved here.

it's be nauseating were i able to take it seriously. but i can't. this because it's nothing more or less than damage control from the neo-fascist set. what makes it funny is how maladroit it is.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:07 PM   #59 (permalink)
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you have a strange sense of humor, but at least I know your capable of laughing.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:15 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I agree with this column below. It doesn't matter why he did it. The context in which it occurred is messed up. Political discourse in America is not what it should be and, as the article suggests, "America's political frequencies are full of violent static".

It doesn't matter why he did it...

Quote:
It Doesn’t Matter Why He Did It
Posted by George Packer

Judging from his Internet postings, Jared Lee Loughner is a delusional young man whose inner political landscape is a swamp of dystopian novels, left- and right-wing tracts, conspiracy theories, and contempt for his fellow human beings. He refers to the gold and silver standard; that doesn't make Ron Paul responsible for the shootings. He is fond of “Animal Farm”; George Orwell didn't guide the hand that pulled the automatic pistol's trigger. Marx and Hitler produced a lot of corpses, but not the ones in Tucson.

But the plate-glass window of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords’s office was shattered last March after the final health-care vote. Judge John Roll, who was among the dead, had received death threats and spent a month with a protection detail. Roll was apparently a bystander to Loughner’s intended target—and maybe the gunman had no idea why he was aiming for Giffords either, maybe he didn't know how she voted on health care or what her position on Arizona’s draconian immigration law was. It would be a kind of relief if Loughner operated not out of any coherent political context but just his own fevered brain.

But even so, the tragedy wouldn't change this basic fact: for the past two years, many conservative leaders, activists, and media figures have made a habit of trying to delegitimize their political opponents. Not just arguing against their opponents, but doing everything possible to turn them into enemies of the country and cast them out beyond the pale. Instead of “soft on defense,” one routinely hears the words “treason” and “traitor.” The President isn't a big-government liberal—he's a socialist who wants to impose tyranny. He's also, according to a minority of Republicans, including elected officials, an impostor. Even the reading of the Constitution on the first day of the 112th Congress was conceived as an assault on the legitimacy of the Democratic Administration and Congress.

This relentlessly hostile rhetoric has become standard issue on the right. (On the left it appears in anonymous comment threads, not congressional speeches and national T.V. programs.) And it has gone almost entirely uncriticized by Republican leaders. Partisan media encourages it, while the mainstream media finds it titillating and airs it, often without comment, so that the gradual effect is to desensitize even people to whom the rhetoric is repellent. We’ve all grown so used to it over the past couple of years that it took the shock of an assassination attempt to show us the ugliness to which our politics has sunk.

The massacre in Tucson is, in a sense, irrelevant to the important point. Whatever drove Jared Lee Loughner, America's political frequencies are full of violent static.

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Old 01-09-2011, 06:46 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by matthew330 View Post
It's clear to me reading through this thread that many of you don't give two shits about this congresswoman or anyone else who dies or was injured.
You must be referring to the people working suspiciously hard to steer the conversation away from factors which may have lead to this tragedy. It's a shame that denial can be so powerful when an ideology is tested against reality.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I agree with the article too, charlie.

It is telling that the political forces which usually are the first to indefensibly politicize (see 9/11, taxes, death panels, gay marriage, the use of "holiday" instead of christmas, etc) are now suddenly calling for restraint. I'm sure if there were a way to politicize this in a way that would motivate certain voting blocs, they'd be all for it.

I don't care why the shooter did it. However, I also don't think it makes sense to view this assassination attempt outside the context of the society in which it occurred. One would expect certain elements on the right to celebrate this type of thing, given their gung-ho rhetoric about 2nd amendment solutions and tyranny and all that. The second amendment exists to ensure that patriots can protect themselves against government tyranny. This congresswoman participated in government tyranny. It all fits. It isn't out of the ordinary to expect shooters like this to come from the right, because extreme actions like this fit within the framework that certain elements on the right have created for themselves.

The fact that this type of thing doesn't happen more is only proof that this type of "patriot, blah blah, tyranny, blah blah" is usually nothing more than the self-soothing rantings of folks who feel impotent because they think society is leaving them behind.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:55 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I find this little tidbit particularly disturbing and unfortunate: Tea Party Group Blames 'Leftist' for Giffords Shooting - Garance Franke-Ruta - Politics - The Atlantic

Quote:
Tea Party Group Blames 'Leftist' for Giffords Shooting
Garance Franke-Ruta
JAN 9 2011, 1:49 PM

Showing no sign of tamping down on divisive political rhetoric in the wake of the shooting of 20 people that left six dead in Tuscon Saturday, the Tea Party Nation group e-mailed its members Sunday warning them they would be called upon to fight leftists in the days ahead and defend their movement.

TPN founder Judson Phillips, in an article linked off the e-mail "The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and the left's attack on the Tea Party movement," described the shooter as "a leftist lunatic" and Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik as a "leftist sheriff" who "was one of the first to start in on the liberal attack." Phillips urged tea party supporters to blame liberals for the attack on centrist Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, who was shot through the head and is now fighting for her life, as a means of defending the tea party movement's recent electoral gains.

"The hard left is going to try and silence the Tea Party movement by blaming us for this," he wrote. Clinton used the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing to "blame conservative talk radio, especially Rush Limbaugh" and "The tactic worked then, backing conservatives off and possibly helping to ensure a second Clinton term."

"The left is coming and will hit us hard on this. We need to push back harder with the simple truth. The shooter was a liberal lunatic. Emphasis on both words," he wrote.

The Tea Party Nation is the sponsor of the Tea Party Convention at which former GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin was the keynote speaker in February 2010. "America is ready for another revolution!" Palin told the assembled at the conference, to standing ovations.

Other tea party groups took a less combative tone. Tea Party Express Chairwoman Amy Kremer said Saturday her group was "shocked and saddened" by the "terrible tragedy."

"These heinous crimes have no place in America, and they are especially grievous when committed against our elected officials. Spirited debate is desirable in our country, but it only should be the clash of ideas," Kremer said in a statement published by the New York Times. "An attack on anyone for political purposes, if that was a factor in this shooting, is an attack on the democratic process. We join with everyone in vociferously condemning it."
Finger-pointing abounds everywhere, and politics don't go away.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Phillips talks about the "hard left" as though there is some means by which they have a voice that reaches the masses. Unfortunately, liberals in the U.S. sometimes find themselves being shouted down or ridiculed for being communists. I imagine the actual communists are rather marginalized. There is no Limbaugh or Beck equivalent among communists in America.

The biggest threat to the Tea Party movement is a good economy.

He should also decide if this shooter was among those on the hard left or if he was a liberal. Painting him a liberal is a tough sell. It's not often that champions of human rights, social justice, and tolerance go off the deep end like that. Anarchists? Revolutionaries? Perhaps.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:45 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton View Post
I agree with the article too, charlie.

It is telling that the political forces which usually are the first to indefensibly politicize (see 9/11, taxes, death panels, gay marriage, the use of "holiday" instead of christmas, etc) are now suddenly calling for restraint. I'm sure if there were a way to politicize this in a way that would motivate certain voting blocs, they'd be all for it.

I don't care why the shooter did it. However, I also don't think it makes sense to view this assassination attempt outside the context of the society in which it occurred. One would expect certain elements on the right to celebrate this type of thing, given their gung-ho rhetoric about 2nd amendment solutions and tyranny and all that. The second amendment exists to ensure that patriots can protect themselves against government tyranny. This congresswoman participated in government tyranny. It all fits. It isn't out of the ordinary to expect shooters like this to come from the right, because extreme actions like this fit within the framework that certain elements on the right have created for themselves.

The fact that this type of thing doesn't happen more is only proof that this type of "patriot, blah blah, tyranny, blah blah" is usually nothing more than the self-soothing rantings of folks who feel impotent because they think society is leaving them behind.
I'd say that anyone that feels marginalized and powerless regardless of political affiliation is what I get from that article. I also doesn't matter that it is America, Philippines, Israel, Beirut, Ethiopia, Senegal, Spain, etc. We seem shocked that it has happened in America, just like when we find corrupt politicians. It's not supposed to happen in America!

If you feel marginalized there is a chance that the seeds of action may take root and one may actually stop thinking or talking about it and actually act.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:55 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
There is no Limbaugh or Beck equivalent among communists in America.
I think our country is better off for this fact. Our species is better off.
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:00 PM   #68 (permalink)
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"Openly rooting"?? Hardly. After watching that clip, what I saw was people describing a situation that is bubbling. There was no call to arms.

As above, I don't really care to point fingers. The rhetoric in the US is in a place it doesn't need to be. Those who are utilizing this language of violence need to take a little time and do some soul searching about the effect their language is having on the nation. It's not healthy.

This video is just another example (a poor one to be clear) of, "it's not just us that's doing it! See! They're doing it too." This is just as much part of the problem.

It doesn't help.

America needs to grow up.
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:58 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Holy fake equivalency, batman. So a bunch of people, none with the same standing Palin and others have within the Republican party, say that a revolution might happen given increases in inequality, or that in the past civil unrest has led to progressive legislation, and that is the same as saying people should use their second amendment rights to stop congress? With some exceptions, those people weren't saying that people should rise up.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:57 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
If someone shot Sarah Palin at a political event, I'd be more than willing to entertain the possibility it wasn't just some person who could be dismissed as crazy and be left at that. I'd even be willing to entertain the serious possibility that it was someone on the left who was well aware of what he or she was doing and was in possession of all of his or her faculties. I'd want to know if anyone on the left were calling for violence, passively or otherwise, and if there were a connection. If Al Fraken and Jon Stewart were calling for the unspecific targeting of arch conservatives and one of them ended up dead, serious questions would need to be asked.

The issue is that every time something like this happens, someone flies a plane into an IRS building or someone murders an abortion doctor, the perpetrator is dismissed as just a nut and the wider questions, the scarier questions, are ignored. That serves well the people who might be implicit, but it serves no one else, certainly no one who might be involved in the discussion on a forum. You're welcome to live under a rock, but when you start asking other people to live under a rock, the onus is on you to explain why.
Then this is your lucky day. You and your cronies described Bush as a "war criminal" and a "nazi." The movie "Death of a President" was about George W. Bush specifically. In 2008, Barack Obama said, "If they (meaning Republicans) bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."



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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
jeez...this is an unfortunate situation, isn't it? good thing that there's nothing problematic involved here like crosshairs on map or slogans like "Don't Retreat--Instead RELOAD" that would normalize rhetorically the idea that political opposition to poujadisme merits being shot. that would certainly but the far right in an unfortunate publicity situation, wouldn't it?


i think it is past time to confront palin and the ultra right on the matter of the rhetoric that they use to frame political matters. it is time for the ultra-right to back off the emphasis on firearms and the normalizing of (fanatasies or--up to now) gun violence as if this was just another language to be used to reach a demographic. it isn't.

and this without making any judgment at all about the person who did the shooting.

no need for there to be such judgments for the palin-y right's rhetorics of violence to be a problem.
See above.

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Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
dogzilla---come on, pal. the weather underground was only associated with the democratic party in the red-baiting fever dreams of poujadiste nutcases. you wouldn't be one of them, would you?
"Dogzilla, are you now, or have you ever been, a poujadiste nutcase?"


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Originally Posted by The_Dunedan View Post
RB,



You seem to miss the fact that personal responsibility is PERSONAL. Meaning Mr. Loughner's actions are his own fault, they were his own decision, and nobody apart from himself and any active co-conspirators are responsible for them. Mrs. Palin is no more responsible for Loughner's insane acts than J. D. Salinger was responsible for Mark Chapman shooting John Lennon.

Words cannot -make- people do things, just like commercials cannot -make- people buy things. Suggest? Sure. But what someone -does- with that suggestion is 100% On Them. It is not McDonalds' fault when someone makes the decision to eat their junk and then gets fat, it was not Salinger's fault that Lennon was shot, and it is not Mrs. Palin's fault that this screwhead did what he did.

His act. His decision. Nobody else's.
Have you noticed that in this case, the liberals believe a PERSON (apparently Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh) killed people? Most times it's the fault of a sinister-looking firearm.



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And? My point was that the folks whose political careers thrive because of their abilities to draw false yet politically appealing conclusions are now suddenly taken aback when others draw potentially false yet politically appealing conclusions.
Oh, you mean like when Obama blames people who make over $250k for unemployment.

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Originally Posted by Slims View Post
Typically rallies, protests, etc. are off-limits for concealed carry. Most people abide by the law.
Wait, you mean the shooter broke the law? Pass another law, quick!
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:27 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
It's not often that champions of human rights, social justice, and tolerance go off the deep end like that. Anarchists? Revolutionaries? Perhaps.
It wouldn't be the first time. Stokeley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright anyone?
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:48 AM   #72 (permalink)
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It wouldn't be the first time. Stokeley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright anyone?
And don't forget Al Gore's call for extreme measures because of government inaction on the global warming scam ... which spurs the Discovery Channel gunman to take "action".
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:37 AM   #73 (permalink)
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here is Palin's crosshair picture. when i first heard about this i envisioned the reps faces with crosshairs over it. being that its just a picture of the states with the rep's name below, i can't take seriously anyone who would lay blame on Palin for this.

I think she's taking heat for this just because people are looking for people to blame other than the lone nut who shot the az rep and others.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:47 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogzilla View Post
It wouldn't be the first time. Stokeley Carmichael, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright anyone?
None of these people are liberals. And as far as I know, none of them shot anyone. Did they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot View Post
And don't forget Al Gore's call for extreme measures because of government inaction on the global warming scam ... which spurs the Discovery Channel gunman to take "action".
James Lee wasn't a liberal either.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by samcol View Post
here is Palin's crosshair picture. when i first heard about this i envisioned the reps faces with crosshairs over it. being that its just a picture of the states with the rep's name below, i can't take seriously anyone who would lay blame on Palin for this.

I think she's taking heat for this just because people are looking for people to blame other than the lone nut who shot the az rep and others.
This is a quaint reductionist position you've taken. If only it were that simple.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:00 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
None of these people are liberals. And as far as I know, none of them shot anyone. Did they?

James Lee wasn't a liberal either.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

This is a quaint reductionist position you've taken. If only it were that simple.
James Lee was an Al Gore follower... the point is that he acted on his beliefs. Son of Sam said a dog told him to kill people. Regardless, both of these people were simply nuts. The AZ shooter's profile looks pretty run of the mill INSANE. Can we stick to facts, or is that straying too far from the agenda?
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Last edited by ottopilot; 01-10-2011 at 07:11 AM..
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:09 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Okay, here's a fact: Al Gore didn't put any cross-hairs on the Discovery Channel.

Also, if we were so hung up on facts, we'd also outline that Gore's call to action was about striving for clean energy rather than removing people from office using the imagery of cross-hairs.

And what about the novelist Daniel Quinn? Was he calling for removing people too?
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:09 AM   #77 (permalink)
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None of these people are liberals. And as far as I know, none of them shot anyone. Did they?
Personally, probably not. However, they done at least as much as you accuse Sarah Palin of doing to incite people to violence.
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James Lee wasn't a liberal either.
Maybe not, but Al Gore certainly is. So if you're trying to blame Sarah Palin for the actions of one wacko then Al Gore gets the blame for one as well.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:17 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Personally, probably not. However, they done at least as much as you accuse Sarah Palin of doing to incite people to violence.
Take a step or two back, please.

They aren't liberals. The original comment suggested that there were liberal nutjobs taking people out. I don't see these people as either.

Quote:
Maybe not, but Al Gore certainly is. So if you're trying to blame Sarah Palin for the actions of one wacko then Al Gore gets the blame for one as well.
This hurts my brain. It's a false equivalence that sets up a kind of pseudo–tu quoque. I haven't had any coffee yet. Cut me some slack.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:32 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv View Post
Then this is your lucky day. You and your cronies described Bush as a "war criminal" and a "nazi." The movie "Death of a President" was about George W. Bush specifically. In 2008, Barack Obama said, "If they (meaning Republicans) bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."




Will people with the desire to play the fake equivalency card at least take the time to watch the "evidence" they present?

Death of a President was about what would happen if the president was assassinated, and the movie itself portrays a pretty bleak future after the shooting. It is as much a call for assassination as "the day after" was a call for nuclear war.

Now, of course there will the occasional nutjob on every political party.

But please, show me the liberal alternatives who hold similar positions that have said something similar to the following:

""I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. " Bachmann

"I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying, My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around?" Angle

"If ballots don't work, bullets will" Joyce Kaufman, radio host and chief of staff for rep Allen West.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:36 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Take a step or two back, please.

They aren't liberals. The original comment suggested that there were liberal nutjobs taking people out. I don't see these people as either.
Fine. Then tell me what faction of left of center they fall in. They weren't any type of right of center group, and they certainly have done their share to crank up the political rhetoric and incite people.
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