Maybe some bad news for Iraq - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KillerYoda · 07-01-2003, 10:41 AM

Ummm...
Democracy will have to wait, US tells Iraq
Lead: "United States military commanders have ordered a halt to local elections and self-rule in provincial cities and towns across Iraq, instead installing their own hand-picked mayors and administrators, many of them former Iraqi military leaders."

This can't be good.

The_Dude · 07-01-2003, 11:11 AM

nice parallelism on the thread titles!

anyway, what if they do hold elections and the bath party wins? do we invalidate the elections?

Slims · 07-01-2003, 11:42 AM

History has shown over and over again that you can't jump straight from an oppressive regime to a democracy. You have to take it in steps or the people won't be able to handle it. Just look what happenned to the soviet union after it broke up.

The_Dude · 07-01-2003, 11:47 AM

well, look @ british colonies.

i know for a fact that india, after independence went straight to democracy and have stayed on that course.

Liquor Dealer · 07-01-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
well, look @ british colonies.

i know for a fact that india, after independence went straight to democracy and have stayed on that course.

Check this out:
http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?threadid=14378

The_Dude · 07-01-2003, 12:04 PM

lol, but this is india!

Liquor Dealer · 07-01-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
lol, but this is india!

Damn! We finally figured out the problem - No Dude, This is not India - Texas is not in India - somewhere in your past you left India, at least physically.

Now check this out:
http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?threadid=14378

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-01-2003, 01:30 PM

As far as colonies go, just take a look at Africa.... India is obviously an exception.

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-01-2003, 01:56 PM

I think you are all missing the point. Democracy works best when the people demand it for themselves and set up their own systems. When its imposed from outside, things are much more difficult, for one thing the new system will have problems with legitimacy, also they are succeptable to corruption.

I dont mean to suggest that it is always this way, one notable exception is Japan. The US was very sucessful at setting up a postwar government in Japan (although it has its own problems with corruption and legitimacy), but it took several years and an incredible ammount of money to do it.

Personally I think the Bush administration underestimated the ammount of work involved, not that it cannot be done.

Sparhawk · 07-01-2003, 02:59 PM

The interesting thing about Japan is that we conditionalized their surrender, by letting them keep their Emperor as a figurehead. I think that if we did not let them keep their Emperor, there would have been a much greater resistance to changing governments and the US occupation. Many Japanese of the time rationalized it as 'the Emperor is OK with it, so are me'.

Ace_of_Lobster · 07-01-2003, 03:30 PM

Actually it was an unconditional surrender.

Your right that keeping the Emperor served US interests, really he should have been tried as a war criminal.

XenuHubbard · 07-02-2003, 11:00 PM

The Emperor was against the war. Already before WWII, he was just a puppet for the Japanese hawks.

The_Dude · 07-03-2003, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Damn! We finally figured out the problem - No Dude, This is not India - Texas is not in India - somewhere in your past you left India, at least physically.

Now check this out:
http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?threadid=14378

this meaning the previous reference i made

Conclamo Ludus · 07-08-2003, 02:30 PM

But democracy was working so well for Iraq. Why would the US do this?

07-01-2003, 10:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
KillerYoda The Original Emo Gangsta Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository	Maybe some bad news for Iraq Ummm... Democracy will have to wait, US tells Iraq Lead: "United States military commanders have ordered a halt to local elections and self-rule in provincial cities and towns across Iraq, instead installing their own hand-picked mayors and administrators, many of them former Iraqi military leaders." This can't be good. __________________ "So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

07-01-2003, 11:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	nice parallelism on the thread titles! anyway, what if they do hold elections and the bath party wins? do we invalidate the elections? __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

07-01-2003, 11:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	History has shown over and over again that you can't jump straight from an oppressive regime to a democracy. You have to take it in steps or the people won't be able to handle it. Just look what happenned to the soviet union after it broke up. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

07-01-2003, 11:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	well, look @ british colonies. i know for a fact that india, after independence went straight to democracy and have stayed on that course. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal Last edited by The_Dude; 07-01-2003 at 11:51 AM..

07-01-2003, 12:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	lol, but this is india! __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

07-01-2003, 01:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	As far as colonies go, just take a look at Africa.... India is obviously an exception. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-01-2003, 01:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	I think you are all missing the point. Democracy works best when the people demand it for themselves and set up their own systems. When its imposed from outside, things are much more difficult, for one thing the new system will have problems with legitimacy, also they are succeptable to corruption. I dont mean to suggest that it is always this way, one notable exception is Japan. The US was very sucessful at setting up a postwar government in Japan (although it has its own problems with corruption and legitimacy), but it took several years and an incredible ammount of money to do it. Personally I think the Bush administration underestimated the ammount of work involved, not that it cannot be done. __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

07-01-2003, 02:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	The interesting thing about Japan is that we conditionalized their surrender, by letting them keep their Emperor as a figurehead. I think that if we did not let them keep their Emperor, there would have been a much greater resistance to changing governments and the US occupation. Many Japanese of the time rationalized it as 'the Emperor is OK with it, so are me'. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

07-01-2003, 03:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ace_of_Lobster Crazy	Actually it was an unconditional surrender. Your right that keeping the Emperor served US interests, really he should have been tried as a war criminal. __________________ "Hundreds of men must have told you how beautiful you are. Would you displease the gods to hear it once more? I wouldn't. Im young and I hope to see a god before I die." -Patera Silk

07-02-2003, 11:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	The Emperor was against the war. Already before WWII, he was just a puppet for the Japanese hawks. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

07-08-2003, 02:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	But democracy was working so well for Iraq. Why would the US do this? __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues