Confirmed: At least 1 in 5 Americans is an absolute idiot. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

FuglyStick · 08-22-2010, 06:56 AM

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/645.pdf

For the incredulous

LordEden · 08-22-2010, 08:34 AM

Jetee's unfounded threadjacking aside, speaking to people around me, I can see this poll being fairy accurate. I know my last boss (and his wife) thought Obama was muslim and most of the bar flys at my favorite dive thought so too. There was that big hoopla about this picture showing how he was muslim. People are dumb and will believe anything that comes out of the horse's mouth. Especially down here in the southern part of the US.

This article on the horrible Christian Science Monitor had a quote I liked that shows how I feel.

Linky

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSM

“I don't think Americans would care if he were a Druid, so long as we were creating jobs. It is still the economy, stupid,”

I don't care if this man was a necromancer, if he helps pull this economy out of the shitter, I'll help him hold down the goats.

boink · 08-22-2010, 10:10 AM

why doesn't Obama come forward to refudiate these claims of Muslamic Heritage and put this to rest !?!?

FuglyStick · 08-22-2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boink

why doesn't Obama come forward to refudiate these claims of Muslamic Heritage and put this to rest !?!?

My sarcasm detector is in need of calibration; I'll just assume this is sarcastic.

dlish · 08-22-2010, 10:16 AM

yet more dumb-ass polls

Quote:

And 32 per cent said Muslims should be barred from running for US president, while 28 per cent said they should be prohibited from serving on the US Supreme Court, and 25 per cent said most US Muslims do not believe in US values.

Read more: More Americans believe Obama is Muslim | News.com.au

ring · 08-22-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Edit: Ring's right, I misread the second part. Mea culpa.

Sorry for my snarky post. It's just that you are known for pointing
out strawmen, not using them. It threw me.

boink · 08-22-2010, 10:49 AM

yes I was just joking. the key word was refudiate, sorry.

FuglyStick · 08-22-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boink

yes I was just joking. the key word was refudiate, sorry.

Oh, snap, I read that so quickly I automatically read "repudiate." Well played, my good man.

Wes Mantooth · 08-22-2010, 11:27 AM

I think results like this really come from some combination of laziness and gullibility as much as anything else. People hear that Obama is a Muslim, or that people accusing him of being one on the news somewhere and just assume it must be true...in other words the old, why would anybody go through all the trouble if it wasn't true is at work. To some of these people it probably doesn't matter a lick that he is, they just never bothered to educate themselves and find out the truth. Once an urban legend enters the public conscience its almost impossible to completely kill it off, you throw in opportunists attempting to discredit him by keeping the rumors alive and its going to continue to grow no matter how ridiculous.

boink · 08-22-2010, 11:36 AM

Muslamic was also a clue.

the disturbing thing here is (to me) all the 'news' media has the power to present the facts about this, and the birth certificate 'issue' but they choose to let the people remain confused and further, fan their (ignorant) worries over it. it's disgraceful.

Jetée · 08-22-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I'm pretty sure that the source has been cited multiple times.

If the poll was so flawed, perhaps you could point out exactly what its flaws were instead of attempting to cast doubt via vague criticisms that might not even apply to the poll in question.

I'm not making very many things vague, though perhaps they can be confusing in the manner and order in which I've addressed them.

I'll just state I agree with Perrin's (As.Pr. UNC) stance on this:

Quote:

I think the reality is that false beliefs spread like gossip more than actual information.

False beliefs propagate when people think others believe them and when they have a supportive source that wants them to hold it.

--Quote taken directly from Fugly's initial article.

And I meant to ask this beforehand, but it slipped my mind somewhere in-between, but I think it pertains more now than before.

I'll ask now: Fugly (and others), why are you getting so bent out of shape when others take the time to question and/or disagree with your initial take on this poll's validity and/or reason for existing (really, what purpose does this poll serve the greater)?

Sure, I can easily assume that the poll has absolutely no bias, and most of what it is telling us, is in fact, truth, but what good does it serve us to know this? Does it really my make my neighbors or your neighbors (every 1 in 5 of them) stupider than either me or you? Because they don't care to inherently know or learn or seek out what religion the current President adheres to? And this somehow hurts our nation's integrity because we now have more people confused at this point in time, than there was six months ago, in regards to the ultimate question of "Obama as a Muslim, or not"?

It just seems entirely nonsensical to see this as another passing irrelevant statistic, and moreso to actually engage in some high-and-mighty faux discussion on the merits to which it supposedly enlightens us to our own folly.

roachboy · 08-22-2010, 03:31 PM

well, the branch of the pew trust that sponsored/produced this poll monitors attitudes toward religion(s) in the states, so they were just doing what they do. each of their polls comes accompanies with press releases and some expectation that they'll get picked up and repeated in the larger hall of mirrors that is the press. but that's a variable. independent one. so it turns out in this case that alot of what makes the poll interesting is its timing.

and if you actually look at the report (fugly links to it above, in no. 41), you see that the business about obama's putative muslimness are but one aspect of it. it's a kind of interesting snapshot of the contradictory attitudes of a sample of the population of the united states that the pew researchers happened to contact.

you can find an overview of the project on page 25 of the report.
26 to the end reproduces the results.

personally, i'm agnostic about the value of polls in general, and found this one vaguely interesting, but for the reasons i've already outlined.

at the same time, though, there's critique and there's critique: if you have a problem with the poll itself, it probably makes sense to read it and point to particular areas that you see as being a problem. i imagine there are such---i haven't been motivated enough in this case to go through the methodology section--but it's there, in the report.

and that kind of critique is fine. it can be interesting, even, when everyone has access to the same information (which we do)..

but the vague "o what good do these poll thingies do anyway?" particularly when looped through "they just make us all judgmental" without any reference to the poll itself is a little annoying. because it's not based on anything. it's not a whole lot different from conservative complaints about their favorite collective phantasm, the "liberal press" which is something they refer to routinely without ever locating because, really, it's a phantasm. you can't really debate with the folk who accept the existence of the phantasm "liberal press" because there's nothing common to point to and no agreement about interpretation, etc etc etc.

FuglyStick · 08-22-2010, 04:00 PM

...

Fuck it, I'm done. Sit on your ass and eat bon-bons while the boat goes down if you want to.

You know what's more discouraging than the ignorance? The apathy concerning the ignorance.

Plan9 · 08-22-2010, 04:42 PM

Hey... just think: If you build the bomb, you can hire an intellectual to push the button.

Wes Mantooth · 08-22-2010, 05:07 PM

At the end of the day what can you really do? People are going to believe what they hear and hear what they want to believe. How do we really change public perception with that attitude? Responsible nationwide journalism would help, but that isn't sexy enough to sell ad space, people want controversy. Besides even when things like this are corrected time and time again in the national media people still cling to them like its gospel.

It is what it is...depressing and sad but...well I don't know, with so much misinformation, hatred and bigotry out there this I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher to be honest.

Jetée · 08-22-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boink

the disturbing this here is (to me) all the 'news' media has the power to present the facts about this, and the birth certificate 'issue' but they choose to let the people remain confused and further, fan their (ignorant) worries over it. it's disgraceful.

Perhaps this was the entire intention to this, but it wasn't readily or clearly stated by any discerning voice, neither in the article (CNN also picked up on it over the weekend) or here, really.

How to combat the perceived problem presented by the poll's findings (widespread ignorance / apathy). Sure, it's toward something I, personally, find meaning very little, which has to do with the president's religious beliefs, though apparently, other people think this weighs very heavily on the character and decisions this man makes.

There's education and righting-the-wrongs that comes from the rumor mill, but again, what can we, as individuals ourselves, do?

Teach (as opposed to slightings / ridicule) ; our best first option.

Plan9 · 08-22-2010, 06:54 PM

I was hoping that Weekly World News would somehow worm its slimy way into this thread but I've been disappointed thus far.

Derwood · 08-23-2010, 04:46 AM

For (at least) the past 9 years, it's been "okay" to hate Muslims in this country, while it has not been "okay" to hate black people.

There are certain things people will/won't be truthful about in any poll/interview scenario. If you asked these same people "Do you dislike Obama because he's black", you would probably get a lower number, while the truth is that in most cases, Muslim is a code word for Black (it's just okay to not like Muslims).

If you read either of the Freakonomics books (or several others), they lay out pretty clearly that the reason that polls are shit is that more often than not, those answering the questions will either lie to not look bad, or lie to give an answer that they think the pollster wants.

Pearl Trade · 08-23-2010, 12:51 PM

This thread is better named "at least 4 in 5 Americans are not absolute idiots".

Plan9 · 08-23-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl Trade

This thread is better named "at least 4 in 5 Americans are not absolute idiots".

I wanna party with you. You're all "the glass is half full" and I like that.

Pearl Trade · 08-23-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

I wanna party with you. You're all "the glass is half full" and I like that.

I'm making friends! I'm making friends!

I figured that Tilted Politics has been pretty negative lately, so why not try to spice it up with a little number switch up?

matthew330 · 08-23-2010, 07:05 PM

This thread is why it's more or less pointless for anyone who thinks differently than you open minded people to post here. You've found a lovely little poll to support a number of desperate misconceptions about who Americans are and who conservatives are – racist, homophobic, backwoods, anti-muslim, anti-whatever liberals concern themselves with in the moment.

Funny thing is, this poll has nothing to do with any of it, it just leaves an incredible gap for you all with prejudiced tendencies to draw these ridiculous conclusions about people who disagree with you. Anecdotally, I don't think I've ever heard the “n” word used negatively unless it's a college liberal with his guard down.

There was nothing in this poll that suggested that those who thought Obama was Muslim had any sort of problem with it. Most American's aren't as up Obama's ass as those under the tutelage of your average American college professor. They've grown up and out of that. They aren't as concerned or involved about Obama's personal life. So when a poll like this takes place most would only have to go on what Obama has said and done - which is go out of his way to support this mosque at ground
zero. Perfect opportunity for those who haven't grown up and out of "that" to go crazy. Thread case in point.

Not so unbelievably, I recall a near communal heart attack (admittedly the fake kind that liberals have perfected) with Bush praying daily was completely glanced over in this article. Not one of you here had a problem with Obama praying to God every day. Maybe he argues with God, but I have to assume he does it for guidance, which is what you all freaked over with bush. Here, let me remind you:

"The president is, obviously, he's Christian. He prays every day," White House spokesman Bill Burton said today aboard Air Force One.

"He communicates with his religious adviser every single day," Burton said. "There's a group of pastors that he takes counsel from on a regular basis. His faith is very important to him, but it's not something that's a topic of conversation every single day."

You've got sensitive liberals here bent about a bumper sticker they saw asking "where is the birth certificate". Liberals love bumper stickers, I'm sure you saw bush hanging by a noose on 10 times as many cars. The selective offensiveness is insane. Questioning a birth certificate makes you want to give up on America? Really?

The problem with the mosque is obvious, not that hard to figure out. But it's used as another opportunity for the real “crazies” to paint people what they are not. An entire population of people. When all you're schooling and circle jerks can't justify these lame attempts to pigeonhole rationale people with real concerns, you back down and say “I like to question things, I ask questions, that's what I do. I'm thoughtful.”

Pathetic.

pan6467 · 08-23-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

This thread is why it's more or less pointless for anyone who thinks differently than you open minded people to post here. You've found a lovely little poll to support a number of desperate misconceptions about who Americans are and who conservatives are – racist, homophobic, backwoods, anti-muslim, anti-whatever liberals concern themselves with in the moment.

Funny thing is, this poll has nothing to do with any of it, it just leaves an incredible gap for you all with prejudiced tendencies to draw these ridiculous conclusions about people who disagree with you. Anecdotally, I don't think I've ever heard the “n” word used negatively unless it's a college liberal with his guard down.

There was nothing in this poll that suggested that those who thought Obama was Muslim had any sort of problem with it. Most American's aren't as up Obama's ass as those under the tutelage of your average American college professor. They've grown up and out of that. They aren't as concerned or involved about Obama's personal life. So when a poll like this takes place most would only have to go on what Obama has said and done - which is go out of his way to support this mosque at ground
zero. Perfect opportunity for those who haven't grown up and out of "that" to go crazy. Thread case in point.

Not so unbelievably, I recall a near communal heart attack (admittedly the fake kind that liberals have perfected) with Bush praying daily was completely glanced over in this article. Not one of you here had a problem with Obama praying to God every day Maybe he argues with him, but I have to assume he does it for guidance, which is what you all freaked over with bush. Here, let me remind you:

"The president is, obviously, he's Christian. He prays every day," White House spokesman Bill Burton said today aboard Air Force One.

"He communicates with his religious adviser every single day," Burton said. "There's a group of pastors that he takes counsel from on a regular basis. His faith is very important to him, but it's not something that's a topic of conversation every single day."

You've got sensitive liberals here bent about a bumper sticker they saw asking "where is the birth certificate". Liberals love bumper stickers, I'm sure you saw bush hanging by a noose on 10 times as many cars. The selective offensiveness is insane. Questioning a birth certificate makes you want to give up on America? Really?

The problem with the mosque is obvious, not that hard to figure out. But it's used as another opportunity for the real “crazies” to paint people what they are not. An entire population of people. When all you're schooling and circle jerks can't justify these lame attempts to pigeonhole rationale people with real concerns, you back down and say “I like to question things, I ask questions, that's what I do. I'm thoughtful.”

Pathetic.

I had the perfect last post damn you.... I was joining those who gave up and was leaving... and you make me comeback and post one last time with a bravo, kudos and excellently said.

This is the perfect post to retire on, giving praise to someone who truly gets it.

Sad thing of it is Matthew, they will argue none of them are doing that and you are wrong and only they are enlightened.... those who disagree they find labels for whether true or not and chase them away from sites like this with their self righteous bullshit.

Just look at the title of this thread.... lol.... it's ok to call nearly 20% of Americans idiots here but a Cleveland sports fan rants on LeBoob... and the post is called racist.... that and the fact the hypocrasy and sheer one sidedness of the politics and people here is not worth coming for.

Good luck Matt.

Willravel · 08-23-2010, 08:26 PM

I found this interesting graph on Reddit just a second ago and I wanted to share it because it makes an interesting comparison:
http://mylifeisnotveryinteresting.po...om/controversy

It could be a coincidence, of course, but I've been having a difficult time trying to figure out why a mosque that has been planned for quite some time (about a year, actually) was suddenly an issue with Fox News and conservative talk radio.

filtherton · 08-23-2010, 08:28 PM

I agree, pan. It was a great post for the overt lack of self awareness with which it was conceived, composed and posted. Clearly, it is those dirty liberals, bursting with malicious, broad-stroked condemnation of the simple, Muslim loving conservative, who are the problem here. The best way to call them out was a broad-stroked condemnation based on irrelevant hypotheticals and anecdotal remembrances of bumper stickers.

The liberal just doesn't understand ignorant people like Matthew does.

Jetée · 08-23-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I found this interesting graph on Reddit just a second ago and I wanted to share it because it makes an interesting comparison:

"helpful" threadjack: You (meaning, anyone) can't hotlink to an image that has "amazonaws.com" anywhere in its originating url address because it is just a temporary placemarker to state when the file has been accessed. I (and probably others as well) see no linked image above, Will, and might suggest reddit favorite image-hoster "imgur.com" instead, to host small, disposable, (I think "hotlinkable", too) images to your fancy.

filtherton · 08-23-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I found this interesting graph on Reddit just a second ago and I wanted to share it because it makes an interesting comparison:

It could be a coincidence, of course, but I've been having a difficult time trying to figure out why a mosque that has been planned for quite some time (about a year, actually) was suddenly an issue with Fox News and conservative talk radio.

I suspect that it's suddenly an issue because it provides a convenient rallying point for a certain class of voter. I think that it will ultimately backfire. Xenophobia isn't viable as a long term, mainstream political platform (I hope).

FuglyStick · 08-23-2010, 09:01 PM

(I think the ratio of dumbasses on TFP is closer to 2 in 5.)

Plan9 · 08-23-2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick

(I think the ratio of dumbasses on TFP is closer to 2 in 5.)

Good thing you and I are the two in this thread, huh?

FuglyStick · 08-23-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Good thing you and I are the two in this thread, huh?

I reckon we'll have to call it a draw, Snarky's Machine.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

It could be a coincidence, of course, but I've been having a difficult time trying to figure out why a mosque that has been planned for quite some time (about a year, actually) was suddenly an issue with Fox News and conservative talk radio.

Coincidence or not, it's still funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I agree, pan. It was a great post for the overt lack of self awareness with which it was conceived, composed and posted. Clearly, it is those dirty liberals, bursting with malicious, broad-stroked condemnation of the simple, Muslim loving conservative, who are the problem here. The best way to call them out was a broad-stroked condemnation based on irrelevant hypotheticals and anecdotal remembrances of bumper stickers.

The liberal just doesn't understand ignorant people like Matthew does.

You know, maybe there's nothing really "wrong" with the world per se. Maybe it's just small groups of "crazies" getting too much attention.

There. Everything feels much more relaxed if we can just paint as "crazy" everyone with an opinion or belief that runs counter to the majority---or to reason.

Those crazies.

silent_jay · 08-24-2010, 06:24 AM

filtherton · 08-24-2010, 07:55 AM

Anyone who doubts the flavor of the "Obama as Muslim" misconception might benefit from viewing the YouTube video of "ground zero mosque" protesters accosting some random passerby because he "looked Muslim", or the multiple mosque protestations that are sprouting up around the nation. The anti-muslim sentiment in this country is already toxic and it's getting worse.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 08:06 AM

YouTube - Anti-muslim Rally at Ground Zero

kutulu · 08-24-2010, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Anyone who doubts the flavor of the "Obama as Muslim" misconception might benefit from viewing the YouTube video of "ground zero mosque" protesters accosting some random passerby because he "looked Muslim", or the multiple mosque protestations that are sprouting up around the nation. The anti-muslim sentiment in this country is already toxic and it's getting worse.

You mean like this?

TEMECULA: Mosque protests louder in the tea party era

Quote:

Opposition to the construction of a mosque in Southern California is nothing new, but the tenor and the verbiage associated with the debate has intensified in recent years, according to area Muslim leaders.

When the Islamic Center of San Gabriel Valley was looking to build a mosque in the mid-1980s, the plans were blocked by the city of Walnut's Planning Commission.

And in March 2001, months before the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, the Islamic Society of Corona-Norco found its mosque plans rejected by Corona's Planning Commission.

Munira Syeda, Los Angeles-based spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said those struggles were "officially" centered on the mundane issues common to any proposed building: noise and traffic.

Eventually, after some grousing about the traffic concerns in San Gabriel being a "smoke screen" for anti-Muslim bigotry, those issues were resolved and both of the Islamic centers were allowed to build their mosques, gathering places that these days double as houses of worship and community centers for area Muslims.

Today, a group of Southwest County residents is actively working to defeat the local Islamic center's plans for a mosque in Nicolas Valley, a rural community in the northeast corner of Temecula.

The group staged a rally on July 30, and a petition is circulating that opposes the project because of the traffic problems that could arise at the corner of Calle Medusa and Nicolas Road.

Eventually, supporters of the mosque plans will face off with those opposed at a Temecula Planning Commission hearing that might be held as soon as mid-November.

Par for the course, right?

Not exactly, Syeda said.

During that July 30 rally, people were told to bring dogs, animals that some Muslims consider unclean. A person driving by the Islamic center's offices yelled obscenities out his window. A Kuwaiti woman with a bullhorn yelled at the members of the local interfaith council who staged a counter rally in support of the mosque, telling them that Muslims want to kill their children.

Or maybe this?

Tennessee Lt. Gov.: Islam may be a 'cult' - Tim Alberta - POLITICO.com

Quote:

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey, one of three Republican candidates running for governor, has drawn rebukes after suggesting that Islam may be a “cult” instead of a religion.

Ramsey, speaking earlier this month at a campaign stop in Chattanooga, was asked by an audience member about the threat posed to the United States by Muslims. Ramsey replied that he’s “all about freedom of religion,” even mentioning that Muslims are attempting to construct a mosque in a nearby county. “But you cross the line when they start trying to bring Sharia law into the United States,” he said, referring to the strict Islamic law enforced in some majority-Muslim nations.

Ramsey continued, “Now you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, a way of life, or cult – whatever you want to call it. We do protect our religions, but at the same time, this is something that we are going to have to face.”

Read more: Tennessee Lt. Gov.: Islam may be a 'cult' - Tim Alberta - POLITICO.com

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 08:36 AM

That video further demonstrates the need for the centre to be built and to be functioning in the area. And assuming that these protesters came from outside the area, it demonstrates the need for similar centres elsewhere.

Oh, and hot Islamophobes are still hot.

The_Dunedan · 08-24-2010, 10:32 AM

My big concern is this: what happens when a moderate young Muslim man, say college age kid, who's been attending the Cordoba House...has his car torched? Or gets beaten up? Is he going to listen to the moderates anymore? Or is he going to listen to the extremists who tell him "Of course they beat you up! Of course they burned your car! They're Infidels and Jews, kid, that's what Infidels and Jews -do-! They hate and kill Muslims! See? Look what they did to -you-! Didn't anybody tell you we're at WAR with these people?"

And the next thing you know, another Neo-Islamic Totalitarian Radical is borne. And guess what? This one -is- Americanized, this one speaks with no accent, this one has an intense personal grievance and a very good cover for whatever nastiness Usama et al decide he's best for.

And these anti-Mosque demonstrators will have nobody to blame but themselves and their more violent hangers-on for whatever that formerly moderate kid goes and does.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 10:47 AM

Islamofascists don't typically recruit moderate young Muslim men from Islamic "YMCAs" or mosques or other Islamic cultural centres; they recruit them on the Internet and from high schools.

Plan9 · 08-24-2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

My big concern is this: what happens when a moderate young Muslim man, say college age kid, who's been attending the Cordoba House...has his car torched? Or gets beaten up? Is he going to listen to the moderates anymore? Or is he going to listen to the extremists who tell him "Of course they beat you up! Of course they burned your car! They're Infidels and Jews, kid, that's what Infidels and Jews -do-! They hate and kill Muslims! See? Look what they did to -you-! Didn't anybody tell you we're at WAR with these people?"

And the next thing you know, another Neo-Islamic Totalitarian Radical is borne. And guess what? This one -is- Americanized, this one speaks with no accent, this one has an intense personal grievance and a very good cover for whatever nastiness Usama et al decide he's best for.

And these anti-Mosque demonstrators will have nobody to blame but themselves and their more violent hangers-on for whatever that formerly moderate kid goes and does.

This is a real problem and a valid point but I'd like to counter with the fact that The Base (Core) has had minimal (if any, I haven't heard of it) with direct domestic recruitment. You may have been speaking in general, but taken literally? It just doesn't happen. According to the classes I've taken and those that I know in the field, it doesn't occur because the group with the brains in the formal organization is fragmented and they've all been too busy running for their lives to be a cohesive unit capable of the organization required to train or even provide funding for an internal recruitment staffed operation.

I realize I'm speaking about this as if it is fact. In reality it's probably just DoS's and the Agency's best guess. Who knows?

"Propaganda with instruction" domestic terrorism events will continue (perhaps escalate) but I think it's inaccurate to suggest that our boy Usama and his crew will be at the reigns. It's a little like saying that Richard Bachman told all those kids to shoot up their schools by writing a fiction novel that appealed to them because they could relate to the main character. The Base (Core) uses their their propaganda tools, including their dumpy white spokesman, YouTube videos, and really bad "Jihad Rap" songs, to indirectly inspire anti-Western activities. This isn't like that Lackawanna boys situation where you have a The Base dude on the ground in the US urging kids to buy a ticket to Pakistan and go play army in the desert for Allah.

The terrorist attacks of the future will be perpetrated by young male US citizens that were recruited and trained via YouTube and Web forums.

/threadjack

ring · 08-24-2010, 11:28 AM

08-22-2010, 06:56 AM	#41 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/645.pdf For the incredulous __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

08-22-2010, 10:10 AM	#43 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	why doesn't Obama come forward to refudiate these claims of Muslamic Heritage and put this to rest !?!? __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

08-22-2010, 10:49 AM	#47 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	yes I was just joking. the key word was refudiate, sorry. __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

08-22-2010, 11:27 AM	#49 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	I think results like this really come from some combination of laziness and gullibility as much as anything else. People hear that Obama is a Muslim, or that people accusing him of being one on the news somewhere and just assume it must be true...in other words the old, why would anybody go through all the trouble if it wasn't true is at work. To some of these people it probably doesn't matter a lick that he is, they just never bothered to educate themselves and find out the truth. Once an urban legend enters the public conscience its almost impossible to completely kill it off, you throw in opportunists attempting to discredit him by keeping the rumors alive and its going to continue to grow no matter how ridiculous. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-22-2010, 11:36 AM	#50 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	Muslamic was also a clue. the disturbing thing here is (to me) all the 'news' media has the power to present the facts about this, and the birth certificate 'issue' but they choose to let the people remain confused and further, fan their (ignorant) worries over it. it's disgraceful. __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way. Last edited by boink; 08-22-2010 at 10:36 PM..

08-22-2010, 03:31 PM	#52 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, the branch of the pew trust that sponsored/produced this poll monitors attitudes toward religion(s) in the states, so they were just doing what they do. each of their polls comes accompanies with press releases and some expectation that they'll get picked up and repeated in the larger hall of mirrors that is the press. but that's a variable. independent one. so it turns out in this case that alot of what makes the poll interesting is its timing. and if you actually look at the report (fugly links to it above, in no. 41), you see that the business about obama's putative muslimness are but one aspect of it. it's a kind of interesting snapshot of the contradictory attitudes of a sample of the population of the united states that the pew researchers happened to contact. you can find an overview of the project on page 25 of the report. 26 to the end reproduces the results. personally, i'm agnostic about the value of polls in general, and found this one vaguely interesting, but for the reasons i've already outlined. at the same time, though, there's critique and there's critique: if you have a problem with the poll itself, it probably makes sense to read it and point to particular areas that you see as being a problem. i imagine there are such---i haven't been motivated enough in this case to go through the methodology section--but it's there, in the report. and that kind of critique is fine. it can be interesting, even, when everyone has access to the same information (which we do).. but the vague "o what good do these poll thingies do anyway?" particularly when looped through "they just make us all judgmental" without any reference to the poll itself is a little annoying. because it's not based on anything. it's not a whole lot different from conservative complaints about their favorite collective phantasm, the "liberal press" which is something they refer to routinely without ever locating because, really, it's a phantasm. you can't really debate with the folk who accept the existence of the phantasm "liberal press" because there's nothing common to point to and no agreement about interpretation, etc etc etc. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-22-2010, 04:00 PM	#53 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	... Fuck it, I'm done. Sit on your ass and eat bon-bons while the boat goes down if you want to. You know what's more discouraging than the ignorance? The apathy concerning the ignorance. __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

08-22-2010, 04:42 PM	#54 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey... just think: If you build the bomb, you can hire an intellectual to push the button. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-22-2010, 05:07 PM	#55 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	At the end of the day what can you really do? People are going to believe what they hear and hear what they want to believe. How do we really change public perception with that attitude? Responsible nationwide journalism would help, but that isn't sexy enough to sell ad space, people want controversy. Besides even when things like this are corrected time and time again in the national media people still cling to them like its gospel. It is what it is...depressing and sad but...well I don't know, with so much misinformation, hatred and bigotry out there this I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher to be honest. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-22-2010, 06:54 PM	#57 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I was hoping that Weekly World News would somehow worm its slimy way into this thread but I've been disappointed thus far. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-23-2010, 04:46 AM	#58 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	For (at least) the past 9 years, it's been "okay" to hate Muslims in this country, while it has not been "okay" to hate black people. There are certain things people will/won't be truthful about in any poll/interview scenario. If you asked these same people "Do you dislike Obama because he's black", you would probably get a lower number, while the truth is that in most cases, Muslim is a code word for Black (it's just okay to not like Muslims). If you read either of the Freakonomics books (or several others), they lay out pretty clearly that the reason that polls are shit is that more often than not, those answering the questions will either lie to not look bad, or lie to give an answer that they think the pollster wants. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

08-23-2010, 12:51 PM	#59 (permalink)
Pearl Trade Addict Location: Houston, Texas	This thread is better named "at least 4 in 5 Americans are not absolute idiots". __________________ Our revenge will be the laughter of our children. Give me convenience or give me death!

08-23-2010, 07:05 PM	#62 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	This thread is why it's more or less pointless for anyone who thinks differently than you open minded people to post here. You've found a lovely little poll to support a number of desperate misconceptions about who Americans are and who conservatives are – racist, homophobic, backwoods, anti-muslim, anti-whatever liberals concern themselves with in the moment. Funny thing is, this poll has nothing to do with any of it, it just leaves an incredible gap for you all with prejudiced tendencies to draw these ridiculous conclusions about people who disagree with you. Anecdotally, I don't think I've ever heard the “n” word used negatively unless it's a college liberal with his guard down. There was nothing in this poll that suggested that those who thought Obama was Muslim had any sort of problem with it. Most American's aren't as up Obama's ass as those under the tutelage of your average American college professor. They've grown up and out of that. They aren't as concerned or involved about Obama's personal life. So when a poll like this takes place most would only have to go on what Obama has said and done - which is go out of his way to support this mosque at ground zero. Perfect opportunity for those who haven't grown up and out of "that" to go crazy. Thread case in point. Not so unbelievably, I recall a near communal heart attack (admittedly the fake kind that liberals have perfected) with Bush praying daily was completely glanced over in this article. Not one of you here had a problem with Obama praying to God every day. Maybe he argues with God, but I have to assume he does it for guidance, which is what you all freaked over with bush. Here, let me remind you: "The president is, obviously, he's Christian. He prays every day," White House spokesman Bill Burton said today aboard Air Force One. "He communicates with his religious adviser every single day," Burton said. "There's a group of pastors that he takes counsel from on a regular basis. His faith is very important to him, but it's not something that's a topic of conversation every single day." You've got sensitive liberals here bent about a bumper sticker they saw asking "where is the birth certificate". Liberals love bumper stickers, I'm sure you saw bush hanging by a noose on 10 times as many cars. The selective offensiveness is insane. Questioning a birth certificate makes you want to give up on America? Really? The problem with the mosque is obvious, not that hard to figure out. But it's used as another opportunity for the real “crazies” to paint people what they are not. An entire population of people. When all you're schooling and circle jerks can't justify these lame attempts to pigeonhole rationale people with real concerns, you back down and say “I like to question things, I ask questions, that's what I do. I'm thoughtful.” Pathetic. Last edited by matthew330; 08-23-2010 at 07:24 PM..

08-23-2010, 08:26 PM	#64 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I found this interesting graph on Reddit just a second ago and I wanted to share it because it makes an interesting comparison: http://mylifeisnotveryinteresting.po...om/controversy It could be a coincidence, of course, but I've been having a difficult time trying to figure out why a mosque that has been planned for quite some time (about a year, actually) was suddenly an issue with Fox News and conservative talk radio. Last edited by Willravel; 08-23-2010 at 09:03 PM.. Reason: link fixed

08-23-2010, 08:28 PM	#65 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I agree, pan. It was a great post for the overt lack of self awareness with which it was conceived, composed and posted. Clearly, it is those dirty liberals, bursting with malicious, broad-stroked condemnation of the simple, Muslim loving conservative, who are the problem here. The best way to call them out was a broad-stroked condemnation based on irrelevant hypotheticals and anecdotal remembrances of bumper stickers. The liberal just doesn't understand ignorant people like Matthew does.

08-23-2010, 09:01 PM	#68 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	(I think the ratio of dumbasses on TFP is closer to 2 in 5.) __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

08-24-2010, 06:24 AM	#72 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	... Last edited by silent_jay; 02-13-2011 at 10:51 AM..

08-24-2010, 07:55 AM	#73 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Anyone who doubts the flavor of the "Obama as Muslim" misconception might benefit from viewing the YouTube video of "ground zero mosque" protesters accosting some random passerby because he "looked Muslim", or the multiple mosque protestations that are sprouting up around the nation. The anti-muslim sentiment in this country is already toxic and it's getting worse.

08-24-2010, 08:36 AM	#76 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	That video further demonstrates the need for the centre to be built and to be functioning in the area. And assuming that these protesters came from outside the area, it demonstrates the need for similar centres elsewhere. Oh, and hot Islamophobes are still hot. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-24-2010, 10:32 AM	#77 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	My big concern is this: what happens when a moderate young Muslim man, say college age kid, who's been attending the Cordoba House...has his car torched? Or gets beaten up? Is he going to listen to the moderates anymore? Or is he going to listen to the extremists who tell him "Of course they beat you up! Of course they burned your car! They're Infidels and Jews, kid, that's what Infidels and Jews -do-! They hate and kill Muslims! See? Look what they did to -you-! Didn't anybody tell you we're at WAR with these people?" And the next thing you know, another Neo-Islamic Totalitarian Radical is borne. And guess what? This one -is- Americanized, this one speaks with no accent, this one has an intense personal grievance and a very good cover for whatever nastiness Usama et al decide he's best for. And these anti-Mosque demonstrators will have nobody to blame but themselves and their more violent hangers-on for whatever that formerly moderate kid goes and does.

08-24-2010, 10:47 AM	#78 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Islamofascists don't typically recruit moderate young Muslim men from Islamic "YMCAs" or mosques or other Islamic cultural centres; they recruit them on the Internet and from high schools. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-24-2010, 11:28 AM	#80 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	... Last edited by ring; 08-25-2010 at 08:55 AM.. Reason: video removed. way too graphic