Healthcare Suicide - Page 5 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SecretMethod70 · 03-21-2010, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

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I believe most physicians – all those I have spoken with – oppose a new government health plan

Uh, like the American Medical Association, American Hospital Association, American Nurses Association, or American College of Physicians? All of which support the plan and all of which recognize that something being done is better than nothing, even if this plan is not perfect. After all, perfect is the enemy of good.

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

American Exceptionalism

Awhile back - I forget where - I responded to one of your posts and said it sounded like nationalism, and you said you were not nationalist, merely patriotic. The entire concept of American Exceptionalism is, without a doubt, nationalist, and those two words color the entirety of your post. So much so that I have a hard time taking it seriously (and for the reasons filtherton stated above). (The capitalization of the phrase "American constitutional values" has equally odd implications.) Nationalism really is an ugly thing, and it blinds one to thinking about their country and their future in rational terms.

filtherton · 03-21-2010, 11:48 AM

On a side note, anyone interested in watching legislation in process (without all the stupid partisan punditry) should check out C-Span's website for streaming coverage. You might even get to hear a racial or homophobic slur when they cut to live crowd footage.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 11:57 AM

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Originally Posted by filtherton

On a side note, anyone interested in watching legislation in process (without all the stupid partisan punditry) should check out C-Span's website for streaming coverage. You might even get to hear a racial or homophobic slur when they cut to live crowd footage.

I've been watching for about 20 minutes or so. It's been pretty heated. I'm looking forward to watching more after this current procedural vote.

dippin · 03-21-2010, 12:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

Culmination of thoughts reviewed, personal observations and opinions, but why I feel the way I do about this bill.

Here’s a small example of what this change you’ll be paying for will buy you and your neighbors, enjoy;

But wait, there’s more, how about what a Dr. who already has knowledge of government regulated healthcare has to say about this bill;

Today, if this bill passes, will be the end of American Exceptionalism. We will watch as our nation slowly follows along the lines of old world thinking and eventually end as a nation of underachievers tired of working for “The Man.”

Believe what you will, this has been tried and tried again by previous presidents and has not passed because it is not based on American Constitutional Values. If this is what they really want, in this manner, then let the states individually decide to implement it, at least that way I can MOVE to another state that won’t force this bull shit on me.

Here’s a taste of your new neighbors, good luck America, we are going to need a miracle to get us out of this mess, Thanks a lot Obama, Thanks for nothing.

Yes, entitled, that’s how all are children will grow up, entitled to sit on their asses and be taken care. Way to go America. Way to instill that American way of work for success, create your own future, become something more that average.

Why should they work hard when average will just be so much easier and less complicated. When the necessity to fight for survival, or even achievement, past the mundane is removed, we will all be like sheep, easily controlled.

Eventually, even the people who do want success and struggle so hard for the reward of their efforts to achieve success realize that most of their hard fought for income goes to supporting the average, people will stop trying. Excellence in America will become a rare commodity, you can just start calling us The United Kingdom of the American States, under the thumb of our master, the new monarchy of Big Government. Of the Big’ Brother’

But at least Obama will go down in history, as the 1st Black/white President, and the man who changed it all. I can barely contain my excitement.

Potus, mabus, alpha omega. Just an observation, not that crazy, yet, I'll save that till were all bleating.

The problem with the current debate is that we can't even get to debate the actual proposal, given the insurmountable amount of falsehoods presented by those against it. Let's check it out:

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/p...e-care-act.pdf

Neither bill mention anything about auditing the books of all employers that self-insure on page 22.

Page thirty contains neither a section 123 nor a mention of a govt. committee that will determine who gets what benefits.

In fact, all sections in the senate bill have 4 digit numbers, and there is no section 123 in the house bill.

Lines 4-16 in page 29 do not ration health care. This section of the house bill has a section restricting when insurers can rescind coverage, and the senate bill is exceptions to certain types of reporting group insurers must undergo.

Page 42 says absolutely nothing about the HC choosing benefits. In the house bill it contains a section preventing insurers from denying coverage to children with deformations, and of the senate bill has requirements for states to get money to provide health care for the high risk pool (who are currently uninsurable).

Page 50 contains neither a section 152 nor a stipulation that health care be provided to illegal aliens. Page 50 in the house bill eliminates lifetime limits, and the senate bill deals with early retirees. There is no section 152 elsewhere either.

More importantly, the house bill, in its section 347 prohibits payments to undocumented aliens, and the senate bill only allows benefits to be extended to aliens lawfully present in the US.

This debate would be much more productive if instead of just posting whatever random piece of propaganda one came across, they fact checked it themselves. Whoever created that pile of lies was probably counting on people being too lazy to read the bills to realize it.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 02:01 PM

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after reading whatever that is above, i went outside on my deck and looked up and sure enough the sky was not falling. things continued to unfold. it was amazing.

i find it incomprehensible that anyone can seriously argue that the current discriminatory medical service delivery system is desirable as an ethical matter not to mention a political one.
i would have preferred something stronger something that went further.
i would have preferred a more structured and coherent debate about the underlying ethical and political problems that attend the american medical system, which is a form of routinized class warfare.
i would have preferred the right had been marginalized earlier and more decisively.

but things are as they are. i have not seen a single coherent critique from a conservative position.

i just went out onto my deck again. the sky continues not to fall.

This isn’t about the sky falling it is about the basic concepts of the American Constitutional way of checks and balances and laissez-faire. Its about the fundamental process owed to all American citizens before a decision is made about a nationally altering bill, without our vote, the peoples vote, it is unconstitutional. These unalienable rights for a democratic process were guaranteed to us by our founding fathers. With the reported purchase of votes and the pressure of politics, Obama will alter this forever, the Constitution will never be treated the same again.

I appreciate that you would have liked to have seen more accomplished. I also would like to have seen more, heard more, and understood more of this bill before now, before I am forced to bow to it. But I would have liked it even more if Americans had been offered more of an informed, educated voice in the decision. Maybe a healthcare reform consensus, where we could get an idea of what people thought of this bill before it becomes a law, which would have helped.

This is routinized class warfare, it’s just going to take time for it to rear it’s ugly socialist head, be patient, if this bill passes, equality of the “classes” will be oh, so, obvious. Eventually those who pay will feel nothing but contempt for those who don’t. Instead of a nation known for producing great philanthropic citizens, we will become a nation of great mediocrity. The sky has nothing to do with it, except that under this new bill, reaching the skies limits for the next generation may become easier to define.

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Perhaps you'd feel differently if you chose objective, non conjecture-based sources of information upon which to base your perspective.

You mean like healthreform.GOV or TFN(barf) That is why this is, as I stated, a culmination of thoughts, my thoughts, but in the end why I feel the way I do about this bill. Do you think I would be in this debate if I had not at the very least read enough to make a decision as to where my heart lies, I read plenty and there isn’t a whole lot of objective, non-conjecture information out there.

The liberals’ offer nothing either but their own rhetoric and conjecture while they tie my hands and force feed me their crap, it tastes like socialist shit to me, forcing me this way. You don’t have to feel the way I do about this bill. I have read around, from both angles, I don’t like the liberal angle even more that the conservative, ere go, I don't trust this bill, and I intensely dislike this presidency for forcing me to comply with its unconstitutional demands, or mandates if you will.

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Really. Your first link is someone asking to see the actual bill so they can compare it with a shockingly specific list of things supposedly in the bill. If they haven't seen the bill, where did they get this list? I imagine it was pulled out of someone's ass. And yet you present it like it's fact.

This isn’t the first time we have heard or seen all the “conjectures” listed by this person, I don’t know if it is precisely what is in the bill, but I would think the basic ideas represented must be close or why would they be having such an issue passing something soft.

All I have is what I can find that supports my thinking, as everyone else attempts to support their side and why they chose it. I have been looking PLENTY on both side of the dish, I would love to eat this and be filled with pride in my nation, I would love to swallow this and feel satiated by those who feed me, but right know all I feel is sick and disillusioned not only by my government but by my fellow Americans who consistently tell me to just eat it.

Had I intended to present it as fact, I would not have caveated it with “This is why I FEEL the way I do.” I would have said, Holly Crap Batman, Look what the F**K they are going to force us to do now, read FACTS below.

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And the last part about the lady who has to work multiple jobs is occuring everywhere around the country right now. That means that it isn't an "example of what this change you’ll be paying for will buy you and your neighbors." It's actually an example of the status quo.

My point, If AFTER they accepted Health care reform in Mass. the state of their constituents is still status quo even 4 years later, tell me how you think this reform is going to help the entire nation then, but no, you’ll willing to bet the farm, or more like just hand it over in hopes that it may be better, all the sudden I don’t feel quite as delusional.

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AMA: The bill "goes a long way" toward assuring access to primary care for patients on Medicaid, the federal-state health program for the poor and disabled, Rohack said. The legislation gives primary care doctors a pay raise for Medicaid patients, increasing payments to the level of Medicare, as it expands Medicaid coverage to more patients in 2013 and 2014.

The bill would provide federal funding to states to cover that increase in Medicaid costs.

Who do you think will pick up this tab, and why would anybody want to get off Medicaid after this. I mean, the poor will be able to stay on it now until Medicare kicks in. That’s Great. Able bodied poor can not have to work until they are 65 and then they can not have to work, every again, wait they didn’t have to before, awesome, I’ll pay for that, here’s my credit card, I can’t wait to donate my money, no I can’t wait for the government to force me to pay for non-workers, Joy. America is so great. Just think how many people will be coming to live here, and you know what, they won’t have to pay for insurance either, so long as they don’t work. Oh, and as far as that nasty penalty thingy for not paying for your insurance, well, we have this great thing called, yes you all know it, earned income credit, for those who don’t have any money or just didn’t make as much as your neighbor, we are going to pay that silly penalty for you.

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Last I heard, the entire American Medical Association was on board with this thing, and I bet they've spoken with more physicians than Kevin Kennedy.

Let me update you then;

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Medical societies split from AMA to oppose reform bill
By Jennifer Lubell
Posted: March 20, 2010 - 3:00 pm ET

Several state medical societies have broken ranks with the American Medical Association by opposing sweeping healthcare legislation now before Congress.

The AMA in a teleconference and in a statement March 19 announced its qualified support for the bill, saying the importance of insuring more Americans outweighed any imperfections.

In letter to its congressional delegation, the Texas Medical Association (TMA) failed to agree with the AMA. “We are writing to express our opposition to the health reform bill ... that will be before the U.S. House of Representatives this weekend. Please vote no,” the letter stated.

Among the group's concerns is that the legislation would create a physician payment board, “independent of and not answerable to Congress -- with the authority to unilaterally determine physicians' Medicare payments,” the TMA letter stated. Even if Congress were to fix Medicare's sustainable growth rate formula, this action “could be, and likely would be, ignored by this board,” the letter cautioned.

The TMA also claimed the bill would increase the cost of health insurance for patients and “dramatically enhance federal government interference, bureaucracy, and red tape for patients and physicians.”

Other medical organizations have come out in opposition, including the Medical Association of Georgia. The California Medical Association has expressed reservations similar to those of the TMA, and said it would continue to push for last-minute changes.

And a coalition of 23 surgical and anesthesiology groups sent a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) March 19, reiterating concerns about the proposed independent advisory board and no solution for a permanent repeal of the SGR.

During the AMA's teleconference, the group's president, J. James Rohack, acknowledged that Congress should “move immediately” to correct problems with the independent advisory board, as well as address Medicare's physician payment issues.

Oh wait, they SPLIT from the AMA, so I guess you can still say everybody IN the AMA still likes this creepy Bill.

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This debate would be much more productive if instead of just posting whatever random piece of propaganda one came across, they fact checked it themselves. Whoever created that pile of lies was probably counting on people being too lazy to read the bills to realize it.

Again, I never said it was factual, just where some of my thoughts have come from. I am reasonable, however, and I would love this to be a good thing. I still think the process is unconstitutional, the mandate of it is wrong and that it should be up to the individual state to decide.

I do appreciate the copies of the bill, thank you. Did you find it a healtcarereform.org?

Secretmethod70, I’ll be back about the American Exceptialism, but a note, it’s not about superiority, It’s about unique qualities’ not found previously in a nation, that is all. I am a proud citizen of this great nation, an American patriot, as opposite as can be of a narcissistic snob believing in Americas’ supreme value or its’ superiority on this globe, that I do not believe.

I am angry and I am resentful, about all this garbage, and I will always think this process was fundamentally wrong, but I’m still an American. Now I’m going to go listen to C-span and hear what my country is going to do. I may not approve and I may not like it, but at least I have the freedom to say so. I truly pray there is no violence that stems from this, but I too fear there may be those who lack that form of self-control, God help us.

dc_dux · 03-21-2010, 02:26 PM

With the exception of the government serving the poorest and the oldest, I am still trying to understand how a health care system that is provided to the approx 240 million rest of us through the private sector is not the "American" way.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 02:29 PM

Idyllic this is a representative democracy and it is working the way it was intended.
And please point out where and how this bill is unconstitutional.

dippin · 03-21-2010, 02:32 PM

Which process is unconstitutional? What specific part of the constitution is being affected?

The house will vote on the senate bill, just like they must do with any bill. Then there is an effort to make final amendments through reconciliation, but the reform itself doesn't depend on it. Which specific parts of the constitution do they violate by doing this?

So in the end you don't really know what is in the bill, you don't really know about the constitutionality of the process, but you just know that you are angry and resentful. You have all the right to be angry and resentful, but anger and resentment don't substitute for substance.

And no, I did not find those bills at healthcareform.org. I found them, unsurprisingly, at the House and Senate websites.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 02:33 PM

6:21 p.m. est - 216 votes - proceed to general debate; God Bless you America, may the good prevail, whatever that may be, may it not be just a means to an end, to a location in history marked by a single man, but a trip that we can all prevail on. 224 by 8 votes.

dc_dux · 03-21-2010, 02:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

6:21 p.m. est - 216 votes - proceed to general debate; God Bless you America, may the good prevail, whatever that may be, may it not be just a means to an end, to a location in history marked by a single man, but a trip that we can all prevail on. 224 by 8 votes.

Sounds like a FOX News commentary.

silent_jay · 03-21-2010, 04:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

This isn’t about the sky falling......

You open the post with those words, then finish it with

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I truly pray there is no violence that stems from this, but I too fear there may be those who lack that form of self-control, God help us.

Doesn't the second statement kind of cancel out the first one?

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 05:00 PM

dc_dux, I can always dream.......

From your lips.....

Are you people listening to this, do you hear;

Deficit reduction, this is about paying the deficit with health care insurance fees, any way they can get more money, more control. The Government Will control health care, CONTROL HEALTH CARE. 1935 voted down, 1993 voted down, everyone.

This has nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, I don’t care which camp you hang your sleeping bag in, but your sleeping with socialist if you think this is the right decision for America.

This bill with destroy the American Way. Thanks little punk staffers, you old coot, you’ll be dead before it matters, nice job what you are leaving to your kids, thanks.

I’m moving to Georgia, 38 states say NO.

Mass, misery loves company, They don’t want it anymore either.

10 years of taxes for 6 years of service, how many abortions will we pay for during this time?

90% of Americans will pay for 10% who already have access to Medicare. They will cut Medicaid to pay for this; they will reduce Medicaid to the elderly.

Thank you, for the bill, read some of it, The Government WILL control health care, they will control Doctors, and they will control you. The only people they won’t control is the insurance people, they will make money together.

Few cheers for the bill passer, Hoots and hollers for the kill the billers’ (yeah)

Texas, 2.6 trillion, that’s what it will cost the American people.

I don’t want to pay my kids insurance until he’s 25 or 26, he can get his own.

You people have no idea what you are talking about, try government run health care for a while; it really is a lemon in the end. A car you drive only because you have to.

Socialized Medicine.

I can see some of you are embroiled in a lovely debate in step1, step2. I’m so tired of this b-s of moms and kids, I hurt, boo hoo for me, no insurance, no help, blah, blah, blah. Get a Job. Get your own damn insurance; get out of my doctors’ office and out of my pocket.

silent_jay, Huh? bit extreme to make that leap, I was agreeing with an earlier post about the possibility of violence and hoping it didn't occur.

Have a nice evening; I’m going to go kiss my kids.

silent_jay · 03-21-2010, 05:07 PM

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You people have no idea what you are talking about, try government run health care for a while; it really is a lemon in the end. A car you drive only because you have to.

I bet the person who said that has never tried it, I don't know if those are your own words or if you just copied headlines from somewhere so I don't know.

And no not much of a stretch, you said 'but I too fear there may be those who lack that form of self-control, God help us.', which to me sounds like the sky is falling.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 05:21 PM

I'm having trouble understanding why the republicans are calling Obama the most pro abortion president in history. How can someone be more pro choice/life? you are either one or the other. It seems pretty black and white to me.

Baraka_Guru · 03-21-2010, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

This has nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, I don’t care which camp you hang your sleeping bag in, but your sleeping with socialist if you think this is the right decision for America.

The U.S. is long past due for some more socialism to infuse into its politics and society.

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This bill with destroy the American Way. Thanks little punk staffers, you old coot, you’ll be dead before it matters, nice job what you are leaving to your kids, thanks.

Someone already said: the sky isn't falling.

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Thank you, for the bill, read some of it, The Government WILL control health care, they will control Doctors, and they will control you. The only people they won’t control is the insurance people, they will make money together.

The government controls the military and police too. I think it would sooner control the people through the military and police, not through health care. Is this a reference to mind-controlling microchips implanted unbeknown to the public at large? Otherwise, I don't know how granting more access to health care can control people.... enlighten me, please?

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You people have no idea what you are talking about, try government run health care for a while; it really is a lemon in the end. A car you drive only because you have to.

I've been trying it in its current form for around 30 years. It's been doing great. I've had a few hospital procedures done by very competent doctors at great facilities, and they were generally staffed well too. And my experiences with GPs has been quite decent as well. Actually, a majority of Canadians are satisfied with our system.

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Socialized Medicine.

Is this meant to be a epithet? Propaganda? Fearmongering? Because I can see it as something good as well. I was just wondering where you were going with this.

Okay, I see now:

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I can see some of you are embroiled in a lovely debate in step1, step2. I’m so tired of this b-s of moms and kids, I hurt, boo hoo for me, no insurance, no help, blah, blah, blah. Get a Job. Get your own damn insurance; get out of my doctors’ office and out of my pocket.

....propaganda.

dippin · 03-21-2010, 05:55 PM

I love it when one person's talking points are proven wrong or at least baseless, they ignore it and just reinforce what was just proven wrong and/or baseless...

filtherton · 03-21-2010, 06:36 PM

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Originally Posted by dippin

I love it when one person's talking points are proven wrong or at least baseless, they ignore it and just reinforce what was just proven wrong and/or baseless...

Well, we're talking about feelings here. So facts are secondary. It isn't that the bill and process are unconstitutional, it's that it feels unconstitutional. It's not that this bill will objectively result in a complete government takeover of the entire health care industry, it's that it feels like a complete government takeover of the entire health care industry. It's not like the current bill will actually result in the swift descent towards mediocrity via an increasingly intensified campaign of class warfare (?!?!??!?!), it's that it feels like the current bill will result in the swift descent towards mediocrity via an increasingly intensified campaign of class warfare. This is the politics of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

I understand that there is a large portion of Americans who feel completely and utterly defeated right now. I just hope that they are open to the possibility that they may be wrong about this bill. I know I am.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by silent_jay

I bet the person who said that has never tried it, I don't know if those are your own words or if you just copied headlines from somewhere so I don't know.

And no not much of a stretch, you said 'but I too fear there may be those who lack that form of self-control, God help us.', which to me sounds like the sky is falling.

Silet-Jay, back read, I have lived on government health care, tricare, for 10 years, the only thing good about it are those few Dr's like Kennedy who will accept less pay because of a sense of duty to their fellow veterans, and those Dr.s' who are on their way out to the real medical care world, where they know they can get paid what their value is. PCH's, Lengthy delays for simply and basic appointments, repeat issues, lack of continutiy, etc... the list goes on and on and on and on and on, are you getting my point, back read, my fine fellow, before you make grandiose statement.

Again read back into this thread and you will find a remark about the possible violence that may irrupt regarding this bill, I was genuinely agreeing that this would be a wrong thing to happen. How that equates to the sky falling is beyond me, I'm sure you can elaborate your comparison, please feel free.

p.s. I find Pelosi's odd giggling to be unsettling, preening and rather awkward. I also question this whole b-s about being female is a preexisting medical issue. I find offense that she uses my gender for her exploits. This health care bill, Socialist health care, monitored and controlled by the government, is wrong.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 06:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

I also question this whole b-s about being female is a preexisting medical issue. I find offense that she uses my gender for her exploits. This health care bill, Socialist health care, monitored and controlled by the government, is wrong.

I believe she was referring to pregnancy. I sell supplemental insurance and I can tell you it is a pre-ex in regards to Disability insurance as it relates to maternity leave payments. I'm also pretty sure it's a pre-ex in health insurance as well and not covered if you are pregnant at the time of application. I believe you can still obtain coverage but all prenatal care will be excluded.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:00 PM

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The U.S. is long past due for some more socialism to infuse into its politics and society.

Baraka, dude I really love you, your posts are awesome, but you are in Canada, please don't push socialist ideas on me, I don't want them, ah, hell apparently my Government knows what I want better than me, Fuck.

I read your posts. I like the poetry

The government is already their, in my Dr's office, as I have said, I have tricare, I have dealt with Dr's that work under the umbrella of the government, the majority who stay is out out honor, but they are tired too. This is not the right way to do this.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

Baraka, dude I really love you, your posts are awesome, but you are in Canada, please don't push socialist ideas on me, I don't want them, ah, hell apparently my Government knows what I want better than me, Fuck.

I read your posts. I like the poetry

The government is already their, in my Dr's office, as I have said, I have tricare, I have dealt with Dr's that work under the umbrella of the government, the majority who stay is out out honor, but they are tired too. This is not the right way to do this.

Are you active duty? I'm pretty sure you can get private insurance if you don't like tricare. And now that the bill has passed you'll still be able to obtain private insurance if your unhappy with your current coverage.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:04 PM

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Originally Posted by rahl

I believe she was referring to pregnancy. I sell supplemental insurance and I can tell you it is a pre-ex in regards to Disability insurance as it relates to maternity leave payments. I'm also pretty sure it's a pre-ex in health insurance as well and not covered if you are pregnant at the time of application. I believe you can still obtain coverage but all prenatal care will be excluded.

The venerable Speaker of the House did not say pregnancy she said "Being a woman is a preexisting condition" I never thought that being female was a condition, I don't trust the wording or the structure or the way this bill has been pushed, why no Call of the Roll?

Baraka_Guru · 03-21-2010, 07:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

Baraka, dude I really love you, your posts are awesome, but you are in Canada, please don't push socialist ideas on me, I don't want them, ah, hell apparently my Government knows what I want better than me, Fuck.

Oh, hey, Idyllic, I love you too. I enjoy hearing your side of things. It helps me think on the matters more.

But I'm not pushing socialist ideas on you. I'm referring to the socialism that already exists in the U.S. and has existed for years, and how far too many Americans look at socialist as some kind of monster. They don't realize how socialist ideals have already helped their nation and still do today.

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The government is already their, in my Dr's office, as I have said, I have tricare, I have dealt with Dr's that work under the umbrella of the government, the majority who stay is out out honor, but they are tired too. This is not the right way to do this.

Your fears aren't based in national health care, per se. They're based in either A) a particular system that needs improvement, or B) your assumptions based on something that has yet to be established.

Is your concern really about national health care or about poor health care?

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

The venerable Speaker of the House did not say pregnancy she said "Being a woman is a preexisting condition" I never thought that being female was a condition, I don't trust the wording or the structure or the way this bill has been pushed, why no Call of the Roll?

well I don't know what to tell you, that's my best(educated)guess.

as for no roll call...what's the point? It would take several hours and be a waste of time. It's just more grandstanding and stalling by the republicans. The same as with this recommit motion.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:08 PM

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Originally Posted by rahl

Are you active duty? I'm pretty sure you can get private insurance if you don't like tricare. And now that the bill has passed you'll still be able to obtain private insurance if your unhappy with your current coverage.

Now that the bill has pasted we will all be forced to buy insurance,

or fined if we don't, great.

Derwood · 03-21-2010, 07:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

Now that the bill has pasted we will all be forced to buy insurance,

or fined if we don't, great.

do you ever get tired of being wrong?

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Idyllic

Now that the bill has pasted we will all be forced to buy insurance,

or fined if we don't, great.

You already have it so I don't know what the gripe is about.
And if you didn't have it I'm pretty sure you'd want it. I don't know why anybody wouldn't want health insurance.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:12 PM

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Originally Posted by rahl

well I don't know what to tell you, that's my best(educated)guess.

as for no roll call...what's the point? It would take several hours and be a waste of time.

I want to know which democrats to never vote for, again. I want them to have to stand up before America and acknowledge that they are taking from me something I never said they could have, my money, to force me to pay for this insurance.

dc_dux · 03-21-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

The venerable Speaker of the House did not say pregnancy she said "Being a woman is a preexisting condition" I never thought that being female was a condition, I don't trust the wording or the structure or the way this bill has been pushed, why no Call of the Roll?

In additional to complications from pregnancy resulting in a subsequent pre-existing condition, in a number of states, a woman who is the victim of domestic violence and suffers a disability would then have a pre-existing condition.....just one example.

Why no roll call....the House votes electronically; every vote is recorded in the Congressional Record.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

I want to know which democrats to never vote for, again. I want them to have to stand up before America and acknowledge that they are taking from me something I never said they could have, my money, to force me to pay for this insurance.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't vote democrat anyway so what's gonna be different now?

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

You already have it so I don't know what the gripe is about.
And if you didn't have it I'm pretty sure you'd want it. I don't know why anybody wouldn't want health insurance.

The point is, it is not for you to decide, that is my decision. Whether I have insurance or not, is, well, was my decision.

dippin · 03-21-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

I want to know which democrats to never vote for, again. I want them to have to stand up before America and acknowledge that they are taking from me something I never said they could have, my money, to force me to pay for this insurance.

Their votes are on the records without the necessity of a roll call.

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Do you ever get tired of flipping people off? I'm guessing, no.

Being wrong is not where I'm at, it is were you are putting me, that is your choice. Your choice.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

The point is, it is not for you to decide, that is my decision. Whether I have insurance or not, is, well, was my decision.

well now it's no different than auto insurance. If you want to drive you need car insurance. If you want medical treatment you need health insurance.

silent_jay · 03-21-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Silet-Jay, back read, I have lived on government health care, tricare, for 10 years, the only thing good about it are those few Dr's like Kennedy who will accept less pay because of a sense of duty to their fellow veterans, and those Dr.s' who are on their way out to the real medical care world, where they know they can get paid what their value is. PCH's, Lengthy delays for simply and basic appointments, repeat issues, lack of continutiy, etc... the list goes on and on and on and on and on, are you getting my point, back read, my fine fellow, before you make grandiose statement.

Really the only thing good about it, I've lived it for 32 years, Baraka for around 30 years, we have no major complaints. I've had the same doctor for I can't remember how long, at least 10 years, before that I had my doctor for probably 12 years, and before that from the time I was born, 3 doctors in 32 years seems pretty continious to me.

Not a grandiose statement at all, you seem to think you know all about the way its going to be based on your experiences with military doctors, and think you know how it will be based on that, I'm simply telling my experiences, kind of the point of this thread don't you think?

Idyllic · 03-21-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't vote democrat anyway so what's gonna be different now?

I'm sorry, I believe my mouth is full of your assumptions, I find it stinky! You don't know me, don't assume how I used to vote. You know the whole assume thing, right, it's working.

dc_dux · 03-21-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Do you ever get tired of flipping people off? I'm guessing, no.

Being wrong is not where I'm at, it is were you are putting me, that is your choice. Your choice.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as expressed in the emotional post above, just as others have the right to point out that it is not based on the facts.

rahl · 03-21-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

I'm sorry, I believe my mouth is full of your assumptions, I find it stinky! You don't know me, don't assume how I used to vote. You know the whole assume thing, right, it's working.

Didn't mean to offend. And yes I was making an assumption(educated guess) based on your posts. obviously I don't know you or how you vote, hence the limb I climbed out on.

filtherton · 03-21-2010, 07:24 PM

Idyllic, are you paying for your government plan? If you'd prefer paying for a private plan because you think the quality would be better, why don't you?

Derwood · 03-21-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Do you ever get tired of flipping people off? I'm guessing, no.

Being wrong is not where I'm at, it is were you are putting me, that is your choice. Your choice.

actually, it's pretty easy to show how you have been factually incorrect over and over again. that's not an opinion

03-21-2010, 02:26 PM	#166 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	With the exception of the government serving the poorest and the oldest, I am still trying to understand how a health care system that is provided to the approx 240 million rest of us through the private sector is not the "American" way. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 03-21-2010 at 02:30 PM..

03-21-2010, 02:29 PM	#167 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	Idyllic this is a representative democracy and it is working the way it was intended. And please point out where and how this bill is unconstitutional. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

03-21-2010, 02:33 PM	#169 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	6:21 p.m. est - 216 votes - proceed to general debate; God Bless you America, may the good prevail, whatever that may be, may it not be just a means to an end, to a location in history marked by a single man, but a trip that we can all prevail on. 224 by 8 votes. __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

03-21-2010, 05:00 PM	#172 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	dc_dux, I can always dream....... From your lips..... Are you people listening to this, do you hear; Deficit reduction, this is about paying the deficit with health care insurance fees, any way they can get more money, more control. The Government Will control health care, CONTROL HEALTH CARE. 1935 voted down, 1993 voted down, everyone. This has nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, I don’t care which camp you hang your sleeping bag in, but your sleeping with socialist if you think this is the right decision for America. This bill with destroy the American Way. Thanks little punk staffers, you old coot, you’ll be dead before it matters, nice job what you are leaving to your kids, thanks. I’m moving to Georgia, 38 states say NO. Mass, misery loves company, They don’t want it anymore either. 10 years of taxes for 6 years of service, how many abortions will we pay for during this time? 90% of Americans will pay for 10% who already have access to Medicare. They will cut Medicaid to pay for this; they will reduce Medicaid to the elderly. Thank you, for the bill, read some of it, The Government WILL control health care, they will control Doctors, and they will control you. The only people they won’t control is the insurance people, they will make money together. Few cheers for the bill passer, Hoots and hollers for the kill the billers’ (yeah) Texas, 2.6 trillion, that’s what it will cost the American people. I don’t want to pay my kids insurance until he’s 25 or 26, he can get his own. You people have no idea what you are talking about, try government run health care for a while; it really is a lemon in the end. A car you drive only because you have to. Socialized Medicine. I can see some of you are embroiled in a lovely debate in step1, step2. I’m so tired of this b-s of moms and kids, I hurt, boo hoo for me, no insurance, no help, blah, blah, blah. Get a Job. Get your own damn insurance; get out of my doctors’ office and out of my pocket. silent_jay, Huh? bit extreme to make that leap, I was agreeing with an earlier post about the possibility of violence and hoping it didn't occur. Have a nice evening; I’m going to go kiss my kids. __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

03-21-2010, 05:21 PM	#174 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	I'm having trouble understanding why the republicans are calling Obama the most pro abortion president in history. How can someone be more pro choice/life? you are either one or the other. It seems pretty black and white to me. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

03-21-2010, 11:48 AM	#162 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	On a side note, anyone interested in watching legislation in process (without all the stupid partisan punditry) should check out C-Span's website for streaming coverage. You might even get to hear a racial or homophobic slur when they cut to live crowd footage.

03-21-2010, 02:32 PM	#168 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	Which process is unconstitutional? What specific part of the constitution is being affected? The house will vote on the senate bill, just like they must do with any bill. Then there is an effort to make final amendments through reconciliation, but the reform itself doesn't depend on it. Which specific parts of the constitution do they violate by doing this? So in the end you don't really know what is in the bill, you don't really know about the constitutionality of the process, but you just know that you are angry and resentful. You have all the right to be angry and resentful, but anger and resentment don't substitute for substance. And no, I did not find those bills at healthcareform.org. I found them, unsurprisingly, at the House and Senate websites.

03-21-2010, 05:55 PM	#176 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	I love it when one person's talking points are proven wrong or at least baseless, they ignore it and just reinforce what was just proven wrong and/or baseless...

03-21-2010, 07:24 PM	#199 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Idyllic, are you paying for your government plan? If you'd prefer paying for a private plan because you think the quality would be better, why don't you?