buy a $15000 dollar policy or go to jail - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 11-06-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

well, this should end well.

I know that i'll resist this on simple principal.

Derwood · 11-06-2009, 06:42 PM

I really hate Democratic leadership sometimes. Christ, what a mess this party is

ratbastid · 11-07-2009, 05:23 AM

Article 1 Section 8 of your beloved Constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes". That's pretty definitive. And last I looked, tax evasion was still a crime. So... What's the principle you'd resist this on?

Oh yeah, I remember: Democrats are doing it. Silly me.

flstf · 11-07-2009, 06:55 AM

This is what happens when they try to craft a bill with insurance reforms like covering pre-conditions etc.. while trying to maintain the mostly private health insurance nature of our employer based system. The only way to keep rates from going up to pay the additional cost of the reforms is to force everyone to purchase a policy bringing in millions of new policy holders.

IMHO they should be proposing a single payer system that includes everyone but politically I guess it can't be done at this time. Those interested in keeping the status quo have bought the votes of too many of our politicians.

rahl · 11-07-2009, 07:26 AM

To me there theory is that if more people are covered then the risk pool will be larger thus lowering insurance premiums for everyone. The problem with that is that the people who can't afford insurance now have no way to afford it once it's mandated that they must. So without some sort of public OPTION I can't see how this is going to be possible. Insurance companies aren't going to lower premiums out of the goodness of their hearts because they would go bankrupt if they did. So it seems like we are back to square one. I wouldn't be suprised if this bill fails miserably.

Tully Mars · 11-07-2009, 10:28 AM

Where's the 15,000 figure come from?

Martian · 11-07-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Where's the 15,000 figure come from?

I was sort of wondering that myself. The only figure I see is 2.5%. I suppose if you make $600 000 per year that could be relevant, but if that's the case I think you can probably afford it.

Tully Mars · 11-07-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

I was sort of wondering that myself. The only figure I see is 2.5%. I suppose if you make $600 000 per year that could be relevant, but if that's the case I think you can probably afford it.

Well if you follow the link to the GOP scare tactic site it does indeed claim you'll be forced to pay for 15,000 policy by 2016. To prove it they link to a CBO page that states-

Quote:

This letter responds to questions about the subsidies that enrollees would receive for premiums
and cost sharing and the amounts that they would have to pay, on average, if they purchased a
relatively low cost plan in the new insurance exchanges to be established under H.R. 3962, the
Affordable Health Care for America Act, as introduced in the House of Representatives on
October 29, 2009. The analysis reflects the preliminary analysis of that bill that the
Congressional Budget Office (CBO), in conjunction with the staff of the Joint Committee on
Taxation (JCT), released last week.
Subsidies and Payments at Different Income Levels Under H.R. 3962
The enclosed table focuses on enrollees who purchase a “reference” plan (the premiums for
which equal the average of the three lowest-cost “basic” plans, as defined in the bill), because
federal subsidies would be tied to that average. Such a plan would have an actuarial value of
70 percent, which represents the average share of costs for covered benefits that would be paid
by the plan. Although premiums under H.R. 3962 would vary by geographic area to reflect
differences in average spending for health care and would also vary by age, the table shows the
approximate national average for that lower-cost reference plan—about $5,300 for single
policies and about $15,000 for family policies in 2016. Enrollees could purchase a more
expensive plan or more extensive coverage for an additional, unsubsidized premium—and CBO
anticipates that many enrollees would do that, so the average premiums actually paid in the
exchanges would be higher (although average cost-sharing amounts could be lower than those
shown in the table). The figures are presented for 2016 in order to illustrate the likely situation
after the proposed changes in insurance markets were fully implemented. (A downside of that
approach is that the figures are harder to compare with those observed in 2009.)
Under the House bill, the maximum share of income that enrollees would have to pay for the
reference plan in 2013 would range from 1.5 percent for those with income less than or equal to
133 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL) to 12 percent for those with income equal to
400 percent of the FPL. (People with income below 150 percent of the FPL, however, would
generally be eligible for Medicaid and thus ineligible for subsidies within the exchanges.) After
2013, those income-based caps would all be indexed so that the share of the premiums that
enrollees (in each income band) paid would be maintained over time. As a result, the incomebased
caps would gradually become higher over time; for example, they are estimated to range
from about 1.6 percent to about 12.8 percent in 2016. Enrollees with income below 350 percent

Which mentions 15k but doesn't state that's going to be the cost to a family. Pretty standard GOP tactic... when the facts aren't on your side scare the crap out of people. Either that or claim it will lead to gay marriage.

dksuddeth · 11-07-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Article 1 Section 8 of your beloved Constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes". That's pretty definitive. And last I looked, tax evasion was still a crime. So... What's the principle you'd resist this on?

I think slapping a 30,000 dollar tax or go to prison is more than justification enough. The congress can suck my ass because at this point, this 'tax' is not only excessive, but it's also 2/3rds of my annual income. So I guess it'd be great to have health insurance but be homeless. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Oh yeah, I remember: Democrats are doing it. Silly me.

no, not even.

one other thing: Article 1 Section 8 "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes" applies ONLY to paying for general welfare shit, NOT to give it to health insurance companies.

rahl · 11-07-2009, 10:59 AM

[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2726151]I think slapping a 30,000 dollar tax or go to prison is more than justification enough. The congress can suck my ass because at this point, this 'tax' is not only excessive, but it's also 2/3rds of my annual income. So I guess it'd be great to have health insurance but be homeless. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster.

Dude, you can't seriously think that you are going to have to pay 30k in taxes. Not unless you make well over half a million a year...which you may I don't know. But if you think you're going to pay 2/3 of your income in taxes I don't know what to tell you other than that will never happen, nor is it even being remotely proposed.

Tully Mars · 11-07-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I think slapping a 30,000 dollar tax or go to prison is more than justification enough. The congress can suck my ass because at this point, this 'tax' is not only excessive, but it's also 2/3rds of my annual income. So I guess it'd be great to have health insurance but be homeless. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster.

Wow, now we're up to 30K! Nicely done. I mean if 16K doesn't scare the crap out of people surly 30K will.

You didn't happen to read the relevant CBO statement did you?

Quote:

Under the House bill, the maximum share of income that enrollees would have to pay for the
reference plan in 2013 would range from 1.5 percent for those with income less than or equal to
133 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL) to 12 percent for those with income equal to
400 percent of the FPL. (People with income below 150 percent of the FPL, however, would
generally be eligible for Medicaid and thus ineligible for subsidies within the exchanges.) After
2013, those income-based caps would all be indexed so that the share of the premiums that
enrollees (in each income band) paid would be maintained over time. As a result, the incomebased
caps would gradually become higher over time; for example, they are estimated to range
from about 1.6 percent to about 12.8 percent in 2016. Enrollees with income below 350 percent

Martian · 11-07-2009, 11:26 AM

According to those guidelines, one might end up paying over $30 000. Y'know, if one makes $250 000 or more per year. So, not quite as stunningly rich, but still pretty damn well-to-do.

I want your job, dk.

For the record, I think mandating insurance without including some sort of public option is a horrible idea, as well. Fortunately I have a commie single-payer system to fall back on, so I don't have to worry about it.

But let's try to keep things relevant to the discussion, here. Scare-mongering just makes you look foolish.

dksuddeth · 11-07-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Wow, now we're up to 30K! Nicely done. I mean if 16K doesn't scare the crap out of people surly 30K will.

going by the understanding that it would have been 15k per policy, and that I have two people to insure (myself and my disabled wife) yes, I come up with 30k.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

You didn't happen to read the relevant CBO statement did you?

No, but having now read it and applying the percentages they state in the report, I can expect to pay nearly 6,000 on a 'tax' to buy a mandatory health insurance policy. On an already tight budget where I scramble to pay an electric bill every month. Nice.

rahl · 11-07-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

going by the understanding that it would have been 15k per policy, and that I have two people to insure (myself and my disabled wife) yes, I come up with 30k.

No, but having now read it and applying the percentages they state in the report, I can expect to pay nearly 6,000 on a 'tax' to buy a mandatory health insurance policy. On an already tight budget where I scramble to pay an electric bill every month. Nice.

I'm curious, do you have insurance now? If so is it employer paid, or do you own an individual policy for you and your wife?

silent_jay · 11-07-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster.

I was wondering when violence or guns, or violent force was going to make an appearance in this thread, it always does in all your threads dk, just a matter of time, you like talking about resisting with violence a lot, but that appears all it is, a whole lot of talk.

I bet the next cost will be 100 million dollars coming from the repubs, that'll scare the crap out people.

scout · 11-07-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Oh yeah, I remember: Democrats are doing it. Silly me.

I dunno but I have a feeling if the Republicans was trying to do this most here would be up in arms but since it originated with the Democrats it's ok.

I hope soon we all start looking past this Democrat/Republican shit and realize we are all in this together. There is some middle class people that aren't going to be able to afford this bill. Especially the one's that are right above the imaginary line that is undoubtedly drawn in the sand between the full government ride and the one's that can "afford" it. Another point to make is 6 weeks ago the insurance companies was the bad guys of this debate and now we see they have their hands all over it. Not only have they managed to mandate everyone have auto insurance now they have weaseled health insurance out of everyone. Not to mention that promise "not raising taxes on people making less than $200,000 a year" huh?

hunnychile · 11-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

According to those guidelines, one might end up paying over $30 000. Y'know, if one makes $250 000 or more per year. So, not quite as stunningly rich, but still pretty damn well-to-do.

For the record, I think mandating insurance without including some sort of public option is a horrible idea, as well. Fortunately I have a commie single-payer system to fall back on, so I don't have to worry about it.

But let's try to keep things relevant to the discussion, here. Scare-mongering just makes you look foolish.

If you had paid attention & read further, there will still be the "Public Option", which a lot of people forget, ls Still Their Choice - not just 1 option mandated by our Government. The USA will still provide "options" unlike so many other countries.

Willravel · 11-07-2009, 01:37 PM

I've got my healthcare down to about $2,400 a year now thanks to a bit of creative accounting, but the deductibles are quite high. If anyone's having serious trouble, PM me and I might be able to offer some suggestions.

Healthcare should only be compulsory if it's universal. Passing a corrupted "public option" and then mandating coverage is a gift to the insurance companies and a slap in the face to everyone that can't afford it.

Martian · 11-07-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunnychile

If you had paid attention & read further, there will still be the "Public Option", which a lot of people forget, ls Still Their Choice - not just 1 option mandated by our Government. The USA will still provide "options" unlike so many other countries.

I was simply stating my point of view here. My criticism is primarily of dksuddeth's numbers, which appear to be coming from some made up bogeyman.

Regarding comparisons of healthcare in various countries (including comparison of single payer systems with the current US healthcare structure), we've discussed that here extensively in the past and I have no particular interest in revisiting the subject. If you're interested in that sort of thing, I might suggest starting here.

kutulu · 11-07-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

going by the understanding that it would have been 15k per policy, and that I have two people to insure (myself and my disabled wife) yes, I come up with 30k.

No, but having now read it and applying the percentages they state in the report, I can expect to pay nearly 6,000 on a 'tax' to buy a mandatory health insurance policy. On an already tight budget where I scramble to pay an electric bill every month. Nice.

Reading is fundamental.

flstf · 11-07-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

I dunno but I have a feeling if the Republicans was trying to do this most here would be up in arms but since it originated with the Democrats it's ok.

I hope soon we all start looking past this Democrat/Republican shit and realize we are all in this together. There is some middle class people that aren't going to be able to afford this bill. Especially the one's that are right above the imaginary line that is undoubtedly drawn in the sand between the full government ride and the one's that can "afford" it. Another point to make is 6 weeks ago the insurance companies was the bad guys of this debate and now we see they have their hands all over it. Not only have they managed to mandate everyone have auto insurance now they have weaseled health insurance out of everyone. Not to mention that promise "not raising taxes on people making less than $200,000 a year" huh?

This bill reads as if it was written by and for the insurance industry. The watered down public option will be available to very few people and most will have no option but to buy from a private insurance company. Even the small public option in the current bill will probably not get enouigh votes to pass the Senate and will have to be eliminated from the final bill.

I am tired of hearing the rhetoric from some proponents of this bill who say,
"If you like your current insurance, you can keep it, but if you are not happy with it you can purchase it elsewhere".
This only applies to the small percentage who do not get their insurance through their employer.

dksuddeth · 11-07-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

I'm curious, do you have insurance now? If so is it employer paid, or do you own an individual policy for you and your wife?

I have no insurance right now. unaffordable. The wife has lost hers because it can no longer be paid for due to other circumstances. With a serious pre-existing condition, high risk pool would make it even more expensive.

rahl · 11-07-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I have no insurance right now. unaffordable. The wife has lost hers because it can no longer be paid for due to other circumstances. With a serious pre-existing condition, high risk pool would make it even more expensive.

I truely am sorry for that. Does she not qualify for social security disability?

ring · 11-07-2009, 05:01 PM

DK, I sort of remember you mentioning that your wife might need to seek
help through Medicare.

I had to go the Social Security disability route to qualify,
and it was not an easy path, but doable.

I'm kind of stuck now living on $758.00 dollars a month, (I'm 50 yrs.old and single)
but the Medicare coverage I consider worth it, as flawed as the current sytem is.

I know I'm not really addressing the OP,
but I just wanted to say,
I know the stressors involved with having someone you love needing care,
and wondering how and if it's going to happen.

I wish you and your wife all the best.
These are difficult times indeed.

Willravel · 11-07-2009, 05:06 PM

I don't feel like it'd be appropriate for me to argue what I see as the best answer for the medical industry by using DK's wife in my illustration.

What I can say is that I sincerely hope she gets better and you guys are able to get into a better situation.

Plan9 · 11-07-2009, 05:17 PM

"One million dollars."

robot_parade · 11-07-2009, 05:24 PM

Well, call me cynical, but since the republicans have lied with every breath they take since the health reform thing started this time around, I'm just going to assume this is complete and utter bullshit.

dksuddeth · 11-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

I truely am sorry for that. Does she not qualify for social security disability?

she does, hopefully. we've had lawyers working on it for about 9 months now. we're also hoping to get her on medicare as quickly as possible.

rahl · 11-07-2009, 05:51 PM

I wish you luck with that. I know it is an extremely difficult process to go through.

Tully Mars · 11-08-2009, 04:39 AM

Well having fought with an insurance company to the point where I had to hire an attorney to get them to pay claims they were clearly responsible for under my policy I truly and honestly feel for you and hope she's gets on SS disability and medicare. But after reading your posts it really sounds like you're absolutely and completely against any socialized national health care program... which is exactly what medicare is. I read many of your posts and it seems you hate the federal government and want it to stay completely out of your life. It fact you often state you're willing to take up arms against the federal government. So why would you sign up for a national federal health care program? Seems to go against all your principles.

ratbastid · 11-08-2009, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Well having fought with an insurance company to the point where I had to hire an attorney to get them to pay claims they were clearly responsible for under my policy I truly and honestly feel for you and hope she's gets on SS disability and medicare. But after reading your posts it really sounds like you're absolutely and completely against any socialized national health care program... which is exactly what medicare is. I read many of your posts and it seems you hate the federal government and want it to stay completely out of your life. It fact you often state you're willing to take up arms against the federal government. So why would you sign up for a national federal health care program? Seems to go against all your principles.

I typed up and then abandoned this exact same question, put about 1/100th as tactfully as Tully just did.

dk, while I honestly wish for the best for you and your wife, it sure seems like your mouth and your feet are headed in opposite directions on this one. Will you please speak to that?

Tully Mars · 11-08-2009, 09:47 AM

For the record I received a PM from DK detailing some info he would prefer to remain private. Understandable given the situation. The health of a loved one is a very private matter. I can respect that. But I think the issues and questions being asked could be addressed without discussing any private information.

I think it would be nice if DK could take some time to explain his logic. Cause I'm still lost on it.

Honestly DK's posts remind me of a neighbor I once had who campaigned against a local fire dept bond measure. The measure failed and a couple years later his barn burned down. Then he bitched it took the fire dept. too long to respond... duh, their tanker truck was over 30yrs old and about half of their radios didn't work.

dksuddeth · 11-09-2009, 11:08 AM

for those wishing to hear an explanation or clarification from me, here goes. I believe most people on here know my political stances as Libertarian. This does not make me an anarchist, nor does it make me an anti-government person. What this means is that I am 'limited' government, as the founders intended. The more you allow government to control things, the more they control you and the events in your life. Now, some people have no problem with this governmental control in their lives, but I do. It's been a repeated event in history that the more power you give a government, the more of your freedom you end up surrendering.

That being said, I'm finding myself in between the rock and the hard place with the health care reform. The authoritarians on here want government to intervene and control prices of medical care so that it's affordable for all involved. I believe this is the wrong way to reform health care. I also am having to face the prospect of resignedly participating in a government health care program for the private reasons as discussed earlier. Does this mean, to some here, that I should willingly accept a socialized health reform program because I may be coerced in to having to participate? If so, i'm sorry to inform you that it doesn't.

I don't know what else to really say except that my mixed emotions about this whole episode in my life, and my spouses life, have probably resulted in an even further positioning of my ideologies. Some would probably call it extreme. So be it.

I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it.

Plan9 · 11-09-2009, 11:34 AM

If a DK falls in the woods and no one is around to hear him... does he utter anti-government my-cold-dead-hands sentiment?

Red Dawn Law: If a thread mentions the U.S. Constitution, there is a 75% chance it will involve white men blithering about armed rebellion.

...

No, seriously... this talk of sensational .01% scenarios is about as campy as the script of The Day After Tomorrow.

The numbers are FOX-o-Vision wishy-washy and the aforementioned penalty structure simply represents a typical legal action buffer window.

You say you'll do X if they don't follow The Plan, but you'll really only go as far as G. Law school - bargaining 101.

...

I hope nobody gets shot up during the rebellion... they should know they can't afford the medical bills.

...

You mean our tax dollars are required for services like police, fire, EMS, and DoT?! Inconceivable!

rahl · 11-09-2009, 12:15 PM

I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it.[/QUOTE]

While I'm sympathetic to your situation, this statement is rediculous. You aren't going to purchase insurance, nor are you going to pay the tax associated with not purchasing insurance? And how will that in any way help your situation? Having principles is all well and good until they directly harm your family and loved ones. Are you really going to punish your wife because you don't believe in this legislation?

Tully Mars · 11-09-2009, 12:20 PM

I think where some see governmental control other s see governmental assistance.

People aren't good and evil, nor is the government. My daughter is currently serving in the US Coast Guard. Last summer she participated in 14 at sea rescues in the Gulf of Mexico. She's no longer at that station and is assigned to shore duty. But I like the fact that if I'm at sea in the US coastal waters and have a problem I know I can radio the Coast Guard and they'll do their damnedest to come help me. I like my tax dollars going to such efforts.

My parents are both on medicare. I like that they have health insurance they can afford. I think everyone should have such coverage.

That said there's a bevy of other uses of my tax dollars I'd prefer to see used differently then they are being currently.

ratbastid · 11-09-2009, 01:41 PM

Thanks for not whitewashing the conflict, dk, and I do get the moral agita it causes you.

However, to have it further dig your heels in is counter-intuitive and, from my perspective, regrettable. I would think it would embolden you to go to work for others in your situation, not to harden your stance that such people get further screwed. But then maybe I'm a pragmatist and you're an idealist.

dksuddeth · 11-09-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

I always enjoy when people say 'as the founders intended', like they were around back in the day so they know what they 'intended', you weren't around then so to say that is 'what they intended' is well to be blunt bullshit.

This is a common stand for people that need to have the constitution interpreted as a 'living' document. It's necessary so they can use the force of government to mandate their own personal view of america, with the courts tyrannical position that is.
In reality, it's very easy to know what the founders intended, for those with the intellectual honesty and integrity to actually READ the debate papers, federalist papers, and anti-federalist papers. It also helps to read essays from constitutional scholars that were produced in the 10-20 years AFTER the ratification. I know that's too hard for some people to do because that would put an end to their agenda, but that's just how it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Also the charlton heston cold dead hands thing, and resist by any means necessary is quite laughable, and well a whole lot of talk and no action what so ever, other than message board rantings.

k, whatever.

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

While I'm sympathetic to your situation, this statement is rediculous. You aren't going to purchase insurance, nor are you going to pay the tax associated with not purchasing insurance? And how will that in any way help your situation? Having principles is all well and good until they directly harm your family and loved ones. Are you really going to punish your wife because you don't believe in this legislation?

My wife stands solidly behind my principles, so she is not being punished. I'm sure lots and lots of progressives are going to call myself and those who think like me ridiculous, or other less polite names, and that's fine. At some point, the progressives are either going to consider my death or imprisonment 'necessary' in order to continue their totalitarian agenda or they will have to reconsider what they are doing when enough of us are killed in the process of their enforcement. Either way, I stood by my principles while you live with my blood on your hands.

Plan9 · 11-09-2009, 02:08 PM

Wait, why are they going to consider your death necessary? One man and over a few thousand dollars? GTFO.

This is rich. You don't see mercenaries with Visa or Mastercard patches doing drive-bys in suburbia, do you?

Next thing you'll be trying to convince us is that the IRS has roving death squads in middle class America.

rahl · 11-09-2009, 02:14 PM

[/COLOR]

My wife stands solidly behind my principles, so she is not being punished. I'm sure lots and lots of progressives are going to call myself and those who think like me ridiculous, or other less polite names, and that's fine. At some point, the progressives are either going to consider my death or imprisonment 'necessary' in order to continue their totalitarian agenda or they will have to reconsider what they are doing when enough of us are killed in the process of their enforcement. Either way, I stood by my principles while you live with my blood on your hands.[/QUOTE]

Are there any taxes you are for? if so what are they? The punishment for not paying any tax is a fine or inprisonment, so I really have no idea what you are objecting to. The governmet uses tax dollars for all sorts of things that I feel are unnecessary, but not paying my taxes puts me in jail and for no good reason. They aren't going to change their minds simply because I didn't pay my taxes. And an armed revolution against the US army is beyond absurd, you will be dead in minutes, again for no good reason. You will be labeled a nutcase finatic like the mcvey's of the country and no change would come about.

11-07-2009, 07:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	To me there theory is that if more people are covered then the risk pool will be larger thus lowering insurance premiums for everyone. The problem with that is that the people who can't afford insurance now have no way to afford it once it's mandated that they must. So without some sort of public OPTION I can't see how this is going to be possible. Insurance companies aren't going to lower premiums out of the goodness of their hearts because they would go bankrupt if they did. So it seems like we are back to square one. I wouldn't be suprised if this bill fails miserably. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

11-07-2009, 10:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Where's the 15,000 figure come from? __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

11-07-2009, 10:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2726151]I think slapping a 30,000 dollar tax or go to prison is more than justification enough. The congress can suck my ass because at this point, this 'tax' is not only excessive, but it's also 2/3rds of my annual income. So I guess it'd be great to have health insurance but be homeless. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster. Dude, you can't seriously think that you are going to have to pay 30k in taxes. Not unless you make well over half a million a year...which you may I don't know. But if you think you're going to pay 2/3 of your income in taxes I don't know what to tell you other than that will never happen, nor is it even being remotely proposed. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

11-07-2009, 11:26 AM	#12 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	According to those guidelines, one might end up paying over $30 000. Y'know, if one makes $250 000 or more per year. So, not quite as stunningly rich, but still pretty damn well-to-do. I want your job, dk. For the record, I think mandating insurance without including some sort of public option is a horrible idea, as well. Fortunately I have a commie single-payer system to fall back on, so I don't have to worry about it. But let's try to keep things relevant to the discussion, here. Scare-mongering just makes you look foolish. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

11-07-2009, 05:17 PM	#26 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	"One million dollars." __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

11-06-2009, 06:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I really hate Democratic leadership sometimes. Christ, what a mess this party is

11-07-2009, 05:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Article 1 Section 8 of your beloved Constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes". That's pretty definitive. And last I looked, tax evasion was still a crime. So... What's the principle you'd resist this on? Oh yeah, I remember: Democrats are doing it. Silly me.

11-07-2009, 06:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	This is what happens when they try to craft a bill with insurance reforms like covering pre-conditions etc.. while trying to maintain the mostly private health insurance nature of our employer based system. The only way to keep rates from going up to pay the additional cost of the reforms is to force everyone to purchase a policy bringing in millions of new policy holders. IMHO they should be proposing a single payer system that includes everyone but politically I guess it can't be done at this time. Those interested in keeping the status quo have bought the votes of too many of our politicians.

11-07-2009, 01:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I've got my healthcare down to about $2,400 a year now thanks to a bit of creative accounting, but the deductibles are quite high. If anyone's having serious trouble, PM me and I might be able to offer some suggestions. Healthcare should only be compulsory if it's universal. Passing a corrupted "public option" and then mandating coverage is a gift to the insurance companies and a slap in the face to everyone that can't afford it.

11-07-2009, 05:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	DK, I sort of remember you mentioning that your wife might need to seek help through Medicare. I had to go the Social Security disability route to qualify, and it was not an easy path, but doable. I'm kind of stuck now living on $758.00 dollars a month, (I'm 50 yrs.old and single) but the Medicare coverage I consider worth it, as flawed as the current sytem is. I know I'm not really addressing the OP, but I just wanted to say, I know the stressors involved with having someone you love needing care, and wondering how and if it's going to happen. I wish you and your wife all the best. These are difficult times indeed.

11-07-2009, 05:06 PM	#25 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I don't feel like it'd be appropriate for me to argue what I see as the best answer for the medical industry by using DK's wife in my illustration. What I can say is that I sincerely hope she gets better and you guys are able to get into a better situation.

11-07-2009, 05:24 PM	#27 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	Well, call me cynical, but since the republicans have lied with every breath they take since the health reform thing started this time around, I'm just going to assume this is complete and utter bullshit.

11-07-2009, 05:51 PM	#29 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	I wish you luck with that. I know it is an extremely difficult process to go through. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

11-08-2009, 04:39 AM	#30 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Well having fought with an insurance company to the point where I had to hire an attorney to get them to pay claims they were clearly responsible for under my policy I truly and honestly feel for you and hope she's gets on SS disability and medicare. But after reading your posts it really sounds like you're absolutely and completely against any socialized national health care program... which is exactly what medicare is. I read many of your posts and it seems you hate the federal government and want it to stay completely out of your life. It fact you often state you're willing to take up arms against the federal government. So why would you sign up for a national federal health care program? Seems to go against all your principles. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

11-08-2009, 09:47 AM	#32 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	For the record I received a PM from DK detailing some info he would prefer to remain private. Understandable given the situation. The health of a loved one is a very private matter. I can respect that. But I think the issues and questions being asked could be addressed without discussing any private information. I think it would be nice if DK could take some time to explain his logic. Cause I'm still lost on it. Honestly DK's posts remind me of a neighbor I once had who campaigned against a local fire dept bond measure. The measure failed and a couple years later his barn burned down. Then he bitched it took the fire dept. too long to respond... duh, their tanker truck was over 30yrs old and about half of their radios didn't work. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

11-09-2009, 11:08 AM	#33 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	for those wishing to hear an explanation or clarification from me, here goes. I believe most people on here know my political stances as Libertarian. This does not make me an anarchist, nor does it make me an anti-government person. What this means is that I am 'limited' government, as the founders intended. The more you allow government to control things, the more they control you and the events in your life. Now, some people have no problem with this governmental control in their lives, but I do. It's been a repeated event in history that the more power you give a government, the more of your freedom you end up surrendering. That being said, I'm finding myself in between the rock and the hard place with the health care reform. The authoritarians on here want government to intervene and control prices of medical care so that it's affordable for all involved. I believe this is the wrong way to reform health care. I also am having to face the prospect of resignedly participating in a government health care program for the private reasons as discussed earlier. Does this mean, to some here, that I should willingly accept a socialized health reform program because I may be coerced in to having to participate? If so, i'm sorry to inform you that it doesn't. I don't know what else to really say except that my mixed emotions about this whole episode in my life, and my spouses life, have probably resulted in an even further positioning of my ideologies. Some would probably call it extreme. So be it. I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

11-09-2009, 11:34 AM	#34 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	If a DK falls in the woods and no one is around to hear him... does he utter anti-government my-cold-dead-hands sentiment? Red Dawn Law: If a thread mentions the U.S. Constitution, there is a 75% chance it will involve white men blithering about armed rebellion. ... No, seriously... this talk of sensational .01% scenarios is about as campy as the script of The Day After Tomorrow. The numbers are FOX-o-Vision wishy-washy and the aforementioned penalty structure simply represents a typical legal action buffer window. You say you'll do X if they don't follow The Plan, but you'll really only go as far as G. Law school - bargaining 101. ... I hope nobody gets shot up during the rebellion... they should know they can't afford the medical bills. ... You mean our tax dollars are required for services like police, fire, EMS, and DoT?! Inconceivable! __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 11-09-2009 at 12:12 PM..

11-09-2009, 12:15 PM	#35 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it.[/QUOTE] While I'm sympathetic to your situation, this statement is rediculous. You aren't going to purchase insurance, nor are you going to pay the tax associated with not purchasing insurance? And how will that in any way help your situation? Having principles is all well and good until they directly harm your family and loved ones. Are you really going to punish your wife because you don't believe in this legislation? __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

11-09-2009, 12:20 PM	#36 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I think where some see governmental control other s see governmental assistance. People aren't good and evil, nor is the government. My daughter is currently serving in the US Coast Guard. Last summer she participated in 14 at sea rescues in the Gulf of Mexico. She's no longer at that station and is assigned to shore duty. But I like the fact that if I'm at sea in the US coastal waters and have a problem I know I can radio the Coast Guard and they'll do their damnedest to come help me. I like my tax dollars going to such efforts. My parents are both on medicare. I like that they have health insurance they can afford. I think everyone should have such coverage. That said there's a bevy of other uses of my tax dollars I'd prefer to see used differently then they are being currently. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

11-09-2009, 01:41 PM	#37 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Thanks for not whitewashing the conflict, dk, and I do get the moral agita it causes you. However, to have it further dig your heels in is counter-intuitive and, from my perspective, regrettable. I would think it would embolden you to go to work for others in your situation, not to harden your stance that such people get further screwed. But then maybe I'm a pragmatist and you're an idealist.

11-09-2009, 02:08 PM	#39 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Wait, why are they going to consider your death necessary? One man and over a few thousand dollars? GTFO. This is rich. You don't see mercenaries with Visa or Mastercard patches doing drive-bys in suburbia, do you? Next thing you'll be trying to convince us is that the IRS has roving death squads in middle class America. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 11-09-2009 at 02:11 PM..

11-09-2009, 02:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	[/COLOR] My wife stands solidly behind my principles, so she is not being punished. I'm sure lots and lots of progressives are going to call myself and those who think like me ridiculous, or other less polite names, and that's fine. At some point, the progressives are either going to consider my death or imprisonment 'necessary' in order to continue their totalitarian agenda or they will have to reconsider what they are doing when enough of us are killed in the process of their enforcement. Either way, I stood by my principles while you live with my blood on your hands.[/QUOTE] Are there any taxes you are for? if so what are they? The punishment for not paying any tax is a fine or inprisonment, so I really have no idea what you are objecting to. The governmet uses tax dollars for all sorts of things that I feel are unnecessary, but not paying my taxes puts me in jail and for no good reason. They aren't going to change their minds simply because I didn't pay my taxes. And an armed revolution against the US army is beyond absurd, you will be dead in minutes, again for no good reason. You will be labeled a nutcase finatic like the mcvey's of the country and no change would come about. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"