FuglyStick

I respect Jimmy Carter. If nothing else, he was and is a decent man--probably too decent to be the commander-in-chief. But his assertion that the opposition to health care reform is driven by racism is off the mark. While a certain, small, and very vocal percentage of the opposition to health care reform is undeniably tinged with racial undertones, the overwhelming majority have concerns with the policy itself, not the color of the president's skin (this thread is not about the legitimacy of those concerns, but what role, if any, race plays in those concerns).

President Obama has denied race is playing a role in the health care debate; so has Bill Clinton. Does Carter's accusation hurt the health care debate? And is the Republican party doing enough to distance itself from the fringe that is bringing race into the debate, or is it embracing those fringe elements? And if the GOP is embracing those fringe elements, is it hurting the Republican cause?

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Derwood

For a certain portion of the populace, race will have something to do with EVERYTHING Obama does during his presidency. I don't think the GOP has embraced these people, but there are plenty of influential talking heads who subtly (and sometimes blatantly) tap into this emotion when it benefits them (Sarah Palin's "Real America", etc.)

So while I don't think race is anywhere close to the top of the list of reasons people oppose this health care bill, we can't sit here and pretend it doesn't have a place in the debate

aceventura3

It is interesting that when Glenn Beck makes his case that Obama is a racist (I am not saying I agree or disagree, just an observation), Beck is .....(fill in the blank with your favorite expletive)....but when liberals make their case that Tea Baggers, Birthers, protesters, etc., against Obama are racists they are thoughtful, reflective, reasonable even if they exaggerate the degree of the problem the way that Carter did. I don't get it.

I also don't get Bill Clinton, he was on Larry King last night. Bill Clinton was the guy who claimed "they (meaning Obama's team) played the race card on me" during the primaries. So, on one hand I agree with him regarding Carter getting it wrong, but on the other what did he mean by saying they played the race card on him. Seems like he wants it both ways. Either in his mind, race is an issue or it is not depending on the circumstances. Is this the formula for liberals - bring up race when it is helpful to their cause and down play it when it is not?

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Derwood

you don't understand the difference between calling the President of the United States a racist (with little to no evidence) and calling tea-party people with blatantly racist signs racist?

aceventura3

No I do not. If Beck makes a fallacious argument it is fallacious. If Carter makes a fallacious argument it is fallacious.

If your point is that there are protesters who lack, education, class, sophistication and taste, hasn't that been true since the dawn of protesting?

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"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
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Derwood

Beck and Carter are both wrong.

But once again, you've steered the conversation away from the topic, so I'll stop arguing with you

dksuddeth

why should anyone bother with denoting a difference when the entire group of protesters is lumped in with them anyway?

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FuglyStick

This.

Beck and Co. have no basis for their accusations, while this--

--leaves little doubt.

Again, I don't believe that the racists (and yes, they are racists) represent the average conservative opposed to health care.

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Derwood

people who lump everyone protesting health care as racists are idiots. I think we can all agree with that.

that doesn't discount the fact that the racists are screaming the loudest and getting the most press (and of course they are....they get the ratings)

aceventura3

I posted my thought. You could have ignored it. You did not. You ask me a question. I respond to your question. Now you act all righteous and offended? Gimme a break, go look in a mirror.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

What about the concept of satire? Why do you assume this is racist rather than a poor attempt at humor? I have seen worse attempts at satire, and they had nothing to do with race. I think some of you are too sensitive.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

oh jesus christ

aceventura3

Just like Carter playing the race card, you play the victim card. Just the fact that I disagree with you means I have a problem, right? You don't see it, but others do.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

FuglyStick

Seriously, that's like saying lynchings are just good old boys having some fun, and the fact that the victims are black is just a coincidence.

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Jinn

Ace, I think the "oh jesus christ" was in reference to your inability to see racism, apparently, anywhere.

Defending that Obamacare poster as just misguided satire is, quite seriously, like saying that burning a cross on a black man's yard was just a misguided attempt to welcome him to the neighborhood.

Your defense defies reason, and more importantly the "reasonable observer" test. I doubt any "reasonable observer" in a court of law would doubt the inherent racism of that poster.

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Halx

Yeah, same reaction from me...

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dksuddeth

I can agree with that.

__________________
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Willravel

The president is half black and have white. Some very stupid people have a problem with that. I thought it was novel that we elected the first non-100% white president, but now I'm really just interested in policy.

aceventura3

No. The issue is medical. Obama has African roots. Witch doctors have a history in some African cultures. Over the course of history witch doctors have proven to be con men with no ability to fix real medical problems. Obama is trying to perpetuate a con on the American people. All of that put together is satire.

Where were you when they were doing the satire regarding Palin? Was that form of satire sexism, or was it funny to you? I defended Palin on the issues and did not cry sexism evertime someone made a distasteful joke or comment.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

guy44

Wow. That's just...wow. You might want to see a doctor about that blind spot.

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aceventura3

That is not an accurate statement. I know racism when I see it. Racism exists and is a problem in this country. I think disparities in education and even in medical statistics broken down by race are a result of centuries of racism in this country. we still have disparities that have to be overcome. Calling people racists' because they disagree with Obama diminishes what is real.

I think there is a difference. Satire against a President is very different that a terrorist act against a private citizen. I think the difference is so big I don't have the words to describe how offensive your point is to the real racism and the impact on individuals subjected to it.

Defies reason? Of course.

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------

I am a black man and I know the difference between satire (humor) and real racism. When I watch South Park, I laugh my ass off at the racial satire, because it is satire. If they portraid Obama in a witch doctor outfit, would you assume the South Park writers are racists? No you would not. Do you know why? I did not think so.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

FuglyStick

Dear god, Ace, the point is that conservative objections to health care reform are not racist, and you are trying your damnedest to legitimize racism as a valid form of objection. Stop and think about what you are saying, instead of defending the party line to a fault. I AM TRYING TO SYMPATHIZE WITH YOU AND THE FALSE CLAIMS OF RACISM, quit trying to prove that they are true. Shit.

And Palin is an idiot regardless of gender, but that's not what this thread is about.

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guy44

If it was in the context of an episode about disagreements with Obama's policies, then yes, I would.

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aceventura3

I re-read all of this. What were these posts about: #'s 4, 8, 11, 13,14, 15, 19? If I misinterpreted them, please help clarify what I missed.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------


I happen to be black and I happen to play bass. I laughed for days! Some people need to lighten up.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

guy44

I'm sorry Ace, I must have missed the in-depth discussion of the pros and cons of comparative effectiveness research in that South Park clip.

Protesters carrying that sign weren't making funny racial satire. They were protesting a politician on the street. The context is hardly the same. This may be hard for you to believe, but I love South Park and the Chappelle Show and Woody Allen. That doesn't mean that I don't find that reprehensible image...well, reprehensible.

P.S. I don't care what race you are. I am soooooo sick of hearing borderline or outright racism being dismissed by saying, "hey, just lighten up."

P.P.S. I realize racial satire is an explosive, incredibly hard to define topic and that thousands of academics have spent their careers trying to pin down what it is racism, what is parody, etc. But still, that picture just ain't satire.

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FuglyStick

I am having a very, very hard time believing that you are actually as dense as you appear to be in this thread. I don't know how to put it any more politely.

Carter was wrong to say that the motivation of conservatives opposed to health care reform is racism. There is a percentage of objectors who are using the health care debate to promote their racist agenda, but they are not representative of the concerns that the majority of conservatives hold, nor of their values. To claim that the element of racism is non-existent is, well, ignorant, and does nothing but detract from actual, meaningful debate. Why you are so determined to defend racism is mind-boggling to me, and sets you up as a prime example of why there isn't any meaningful debate.

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aceventura3

Satire is satire.

Yes, they were. I tired to explain it, you know medical, Africa, Obama born is...oops.. father is from Africa, con, Obamacare con...

Political satire has a long history in this country, thanks to the Constitution.

Didn't Obama make a joke about this on Letterman. Wasn't his point to "lighten up", are you going to protest, make a sign...

Yes it is. I tired to explain it, you know medical, Africa, Obama born is...oops..father is from Africa, con, Obamacare con, con, etc...

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

Others are saying the opposite regarding my ability to see and understand racism and the difference between racism and satire. I know racism is real in this country, but satire is not racism. To suggest an attempt at humor is racism diminishes real racism and diminishes the affects racism has on good people. What I "get" seems to be at a much deeper level than what others suggest that I don't "get".

This is even funny in Spanish:

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

FuglyStick

...

I give up. If I were religious, this would be the point where I'd say "I'll pray for you, Ace," but since I'm not, you're on your own.

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dippin

That picture isn't satire, and even if it was it, being satire does not preclude it from being racist.

It has no comparison to the south park satire because south park's target is not blacks themselves, but black stereotypes.

And I really hope this thread doesn't become another 10 page thread about what Ace "feels" about something even when he knows its BS.

Cimarron29414

This will be my one and only post in this thread: The introduction of race on several fronts this past week (not just Carter) is an attempt to give those who support the healthcare plan a trump card when they hear opposition. When those who support hear from those who oppose they are now granted the freedom to say "Oh, they just don't like the black president, I don't even have to hear the arguments." Since well respected Liberals suggested it, it's now available as a defense for the commoners. The end, you can lock the thread.

P.S. The poster of the witch doctor is racist and does not accurately reflect the intent of the administration. It does satirically represent the ultimate result of government healthcare, but not the intent.

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aceventura3

Please pray for me...

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

kutulu

South Park can do things and call it parody because they have context on their side, also it is well known that Eric Cartman is indeed a racist. It was created solely for the purposes of humor and not to convey a message about anyone. South Park also applies their stereotyping broadly across all racial, gender, political, and religious lines. If they only joked about black people there would be a clear problem.

It is possible that the creation of the witch doctor poster had no racist connections but it is unlikely. Even if that is true, you can't make those claims about how the poster is used. Combine that poster with the button asking if we can still call it the White House, the image of the watermelons growing outside and the countless other racial things that have been thrown at Obama.

The fact is, the Republicans have a long standing track record of making fun of Mexicans in the illegal immigration debate and over the past year they have started using traditional black stereotypes to make fun of the president. It isn't hard to connect the dots.

FuglyStick

BUT, I still would not claim that the Republican agenda was racist, even though racists have embraced said agenda. I'm not going to attribute the beliefs of a few to the whole.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

Thanks for your two cents, now GTFO

If you had any reading comprehension skills, you would know that this thread is in dispute of Carter's claim, not in support or defending it.

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Derwood

people are getting to focused on the witch doctor poster. I could spend 3 minutes and go find you a dozen other signs/ posters that are inarguably racist.

or would that just be me being too sensitive?

dksuddeth

wait, are you saying that if there was an episode of south park that portrayed a policy pushed by Obama in a satirical light, you'd say that the south park writers are racist?

__________________
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guy44

Please, that isn't what I meant and you know it.

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FuglyStick

Seriously, that was just the first pic I found in a cursory google search. There are hundreds.

Oh, and I'll say it again for the conservative posters who are a little slow, that does not mean I believe that they are representative of the majority of Republicans. Except for maybe here on TFP, apparently, where racism is fine, as long as it's in defense of the GOP.

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powerclown

The stars have aligned, the universe is one, Buddah is weeping.

FuglyStick

Yeah, see, Jimmy's a little out of touch. With everything. And NOT the spokesman for liberals or their politics.

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Jinn

Now, I see, ace has become the arbiter of what is and isn't racist because he is A black man! I'm so glad A black man could be here to tell us that it's clearly not racist because he, again, as A black man, laughs at it!

I'm so glad that your representative sample of ONE can tell us it's not racist, because you, A black man, laugh at it.

Just for record, just because my girlfriend laughs at "get back in the kitchen!" doesn't mean it's not sexist.

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ----------

Next, you'll be telling me that this:



with the caption "No Easter Egg hunt this year!" isn't racist because... get this.. black people stereotypically like watermelon. Don't you see, it's satire! HA HAH! Look at that silly stereotype!

One of my favorite persons in the world is Melissa Harris-Lacewell. She recently said the following about the witchdoctor/Carter stuff:

It's worth thinking about.

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dksuddeth

no, i didn't know it. that is why i asked for clarification.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."